True dat first 2 years in med school dont "matter"...

[ThinkTooMuch]

as much as the latter 2 "clinical" years? and when i say "matter" i mean grades.

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[GeraldMonroe]

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[HPSPpayissues]

Everything matters in some ways. Yes, the latter years are probably more important, but do the best in EVERYTHING, or else it might come back to bite you.

 

[docscience]

this is a bit of a repeat thread and i think it has been covered quite a bit...but here is my $0.02:

A residency director (for most specialties) is not going to go through and look to see if Johnny has honored/high honored/commendation/pass/just pass/fail/etc. and compare it to Susie's 99%/78%/64%/etc. and to Latasha's H/P/F.
The point being, they probably don't know exactly how intense each school and their respective grading scales are.

They probably screen everyone with Step 1 scores initially, then run through 3rd and 4th year evals (probably the residency director/fellows/residents), then read through the letters of recommendation and come up with a pile.

If they still have too many in the pile, they might go through and look at research, extracurriculars, and things that they want to have in their program or things they have had a good experience with (i.e. had great luck with students who went through a specific summer program)

Then they interview, make sure you are not a total goober and then rank their students.

That being said..the things that 1st and 2nd year grade do count towards:
-AOA = some schools use preclinical grades to admit into the AOA
-Step 1 = the better you know your preclinical material, the better you will do
-Very competitive residencies = radiology, derm, ortho, uro, ENT all probably look at grades and class rank to seperate their already stellar applicants in their piles.

Does this sound about right?

Just an M3 here...but that is what I gather.

 

[Darksmurf]

Does this sound about right?

That sounds very reasonable. If it doesn't work that way, it should.

 

[Law2Doc]

...
-Very competitive residencies = radiology, derm, ortho, uro, ENT all probably look at grades and class rank to seperate their already stellar applicants in their piles....

Nah, most of these still never need to get to the first two year's grades to separate out the wheat from the chaff. Step 1 is huge in separating out folks. Then rotation grades/evals. And things like away rotations are huge. Honestly, it is never so tight a grouping that schools have to look at first year grades to separate out one applicant from another -- if it ever comes down to having to have certain first year grades to get a rotation, it means you totally screwed up your away rotation or research and simply didn't impress enough to separate yourself form the pack. So no, these grades really don't count much, if at all, EVEN for these competitive residencies.

There's a publication somewhere in pre-allo which lists the criteria that PDs deem relevant, and the basic science year grades are quite low on the list. If you just pass everything, they don't matter -- your future will be determined by your step 1.

 

[Slack3r]

http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty.pdf

Dunno why there's 2 of these threads...

 

[ThinkTooMuch]

neat thanks. i dunno about other thread, me so sowy.

 

[Isoprop]

http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty.pdf

Dunno why there's 2 of these threads...

that article plus the other one that surveyed PDs ranking Step I, grades in clerkships, etc. in importance should be stickied.

 

[penguin24]

The surrogate marker for pre-clinical performance is the mighty Step I. Think about it, some schools use P/F, some use pass/honors/high honors, some A/B/C, some satisfactory/outstanding, etc. There is no way u can compare students w/ different grades. Thus Step I is what matters, but obviously, if u don't study hard during pre-clinicals, you won't make a killer board score; and if you get all A's in pre-clinicals, you are bound to get a top board score.

 

[FrickenhugeMD]

The surrogate marker for pre-clinical performance is the mighty Step I. Think about it, some schools use P/F, some use pass/honors/high honors, some A/B/C, some satisfactory/outstanding, etc. There is no way u can compare students w/ different grades. Thus Step I is what matters, but obviously, if u don't study hard during pre-clinicals, you won't make a killer board score; and if you get all A's in pre-clinicals, you are more likely to get a top board score.

Fixed it for you. It doesn't always work out that way, but more often it does than not. I've seen the disappointed faces before

 

[Law2Doc]

Fixed it for you. It doesn't always work out that way, but more often it does than not. I've seen the disappointed faces before

Agreed -- the skillset required to do well in classes and on step 1 are not a perfect match. LOTS of people do significantly better on one than the other. I would agree that the med school classes are a good initial prep for the test, but it's the later prep, when you sit down with FA and World, that makes or breaks you for step 1. As a result, sure the smarter people, the people with better memories, and the people who are type A work crazy hour types tend to do well on both, so there is overlap. Then there's the group that works hard in the classes and gives themselves a good foundation for step 1. And then there's the not so small group that either doesn't know how to study effectively for step 1 after not having that problem in classes, and hte not so small group who really puts it into high gear for step 1. So you will meet many people who do surprisingly well on step 1 considering where they tended to be on the curve and many people who seemed like A students in class who have to concede that a competitive specialty isn't going to be in the cards.

 

[HPSPpayissues]

It is true for anything in life. Take George W. Bush for example. Given his background or credential - more like totally lack thereof - no way he should have been a president. Also, not many thought he deserved to be one, but look what happened. How he almost ruined the entire country is another story...

 

[elderjack21]

It is true for anything in life. Take George W. Bush for example. Given his background or credential - more like totally lack thereof - no way he should have been a president. Also, not many thought he deserved to be one, but look what happened. How he almost ruined the entire country is another story...

I don't think I could give President Bush that much credit. He is just one guy and most people overestimate the president's power. Underqualified...yes. Poor decisions...yes. But, he had plenty of losers in both parties supporting him in his efforts. Most of them are still in the House and Senate. Now Obama is on his way to bankrupting the future with his mega deficit spending. But, lucky for me, I will be in a higher tax bracket when this is all done and I can help to pay that down for my kids. I hate politicians.

Chances are if you suck in first and second year. I would guess you would have a lot to catch up on for Step 1 and beyond.

 

[themule]

It is true for anything in life. Take George W. Bush for example. Given his background or credential - more like totally lack thereof - no way he should have been a president. Also, not many thought he deserved to be one, but look what happened. How he almost ruined the entire country is another story...

Way to take a thread about grades and the match and turn it into political bashing. Awesome!!!! 👍

 

[Goober]

as much as the latter 2 "clinical" years? and when i say "matter" i mean grades.

If you are going into a noncompetitive specialty it may be true. Otherwise I would say it matters because your grades in your first two years contribute in a big way to class rank. Class rank does matter for the tougher specialties. If you want any shot at AOA you have to do well in your first two years. Of course others things matter as well, but to simply dismiss it is foolish unless you are certain you are going into family practice or something similar.

 

[Cirrus83]

I've been told by department chairs that they don't even really look at the first two years' worth of grades, and that even though the first two years go towards AOA, the lack of AOA doesn't actually rule you out if you have really strong boards and clinical grades.

That's not to say that it doesn't help a tiny bit, but it's better to get mostly honors 3rd and 4th year after barely passing all your preclinicals than to get all honors 1st and 2nd year then barely pass the clinicals. A lot better

A strong board score pretty much cancels out weakness in the first two years, since you're basically showing that you know your stuff regardless of what your grades were.

This is assuming that you don't want the absolute most prestigious program in the entire world though, if you're totally set on going to Hopkins for Neurosurgery over other places for Neurosurgery then I guess every H helps, lol.

 

[Goober]

I've been told by department chairs that they don't even really look at the first two years' worth of grades, and that even though the first two years go towards AOA, the lack of AOA doesn't actually rule you out if you have really strong boards and clinical grades.

That's not to say that it doesn't help a tiny bit, but it's better to get mostly honors 3rd and 4th year after barely passing all your preclinicals than to get all honors 1st and 2nd year then barely pass the clinicals. A lot better

A strong board score pretty much cancels out weakness in the first two years, since you're basically showing that you know your stuff regardless of what your grades were.

.

The problem with this line of thinking is that first the underlying assumption is that "Oh well I will just get by in my first two years and get honors in my clinicals.' That is a very big assumption that doesn't hold true for many people. Getting honors in clinicals varies from school to school, but at my school it was limited to only 10% of the class in any rotation. It was extremely difficult to get honors plus the grading in many cases is subjective. The vast majority of people who just got passing grades but did mediocre in the preclinicals did not become superstars in clinicals. Yes there were some exceptions, but in my experience it was not common.

BTW Chairman generally don't do the inviting for residency applicants, it is the program director. The PD does the sifting through the applications and many programs the chair is only periphally involved if at all.

Maybe they don't look at specific grades, but class rank does matter. Sure if you have a low class rank, but you got all honors in your clinicals it will stand out. But there are not that many applicants like this. My suggestion to any med student is should always try your best.

 

[HPSPpayissues]

Also, some attendings might develop some bias about you based on your pre-clinical grades and board scores. Don't be surprised if many attendings find out about these stuffs. Many times, they assume those who did super well their first two years and on the Step 1 to be smart, and it might lead to their having a good perception about you. Also, it holds true (but in a bad way) for those that did poor to medicore their first two years.

 

[amidoinitrite]

Way to take a thread about grades and the match and turn it into political bashing. Awesome!!!! 👍

This made my day.


Thank you sir. 👍

 

[GeraldMonroe]

I've been told by department chairs that they don't even really look at the first two years' worth of grades, and that even though the first two years go towards AOA, the lack of AOA doesn't actually rule you out if you have really strong boards and clinical grades.

Comment : that sounds precisely like the kind of empty words that medical school admissions offices will say. "We consider everyone, even if your GPA/MCAT is low"

Yet it's a flat out lie. No bones about it. Unless you're a favored class (URM/ linkage student/ family connections/in state) you're almost certainly not getting into medical school unless you have the competitive GPA and the MCAT.

I would suspect you better honor everything you possibly can if you want that radiation oncology/orthopedic surgery/ENT slot. Period.

 

[Rendar5]

Comment : that sounds precisely like the kind of empty words that medical school admissions offices will say. "We consider everyone, even if your GPA/MCAT is low"

Yet it's a flat out lie. No bones about it. Unless you're a favored class (URM/ linkage student/ family connections/in state) you're almost certainly not getting into medical school unless you have the competitive GPA and the MCAT.

I would suspect you better honor everything you possibly can if you want that radiation oncology/orthopedic surgery/ENT slot. Period.

I do agree with this if you have honors at your school. Because the more you honor, the better possibility of AoA. But many schools pass/fail the first 2 years, so while doing better in your first couple years is still important, it's kind of like step 2 in that it's less important because you can't make direct between-school comparisons.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Comment : that sounds precisely like the kind of empty words that medical school admissions offices will say. "We consider everyone, even if your GPA/MCAT is low"

Yet it's a flat out lie. No bones about it. Unless you're a favored class (URM/ linkage student/ family connections/in state) you're almost certainly not getting into medical school unless you have the competitive GPA and the MCAT.

I would suspect you better honor everything you possibly can if you want that radiation oncology/orthopedic surgery/ENT slot. Period.

That's not a great comparison if you're refering to AOA. AOA has different selection criteria here and there and is not a consistent way to evaluate candidates. Board score and clinical clerkship grades are a much better analogy for MCAT/GPA.

I agree that preclinical grades are of marginal value, and thus I personally think one is better served spending extra effort doing research rather than getting straight pre clinical honors.

If I had the choice of straight honors in first two years or straight pass with some decent research, I would pick the latter as it would be more valuable when applying for residency.

 

[Law2Doc]

...
I agree that preclinical grades are of marginal value, and thus I personally think one is better served spending extra effort doing research rather than getting straight pre clinical honors.

If I had the choice of straight honors in first two years or straight pass with some decent research, I would pick the latter as it would be more valuable when applying for residency.

Agree 100%.