Trying to sort out what counts towards science GPA

[handnerd]

Hello!

I am a non-traditional potential applicant curious if I can receive some advice regarding what classes count towards my science GPA.

I was pre-med 10 years ago, but lost connection with why I wanted to by a physician and made straight Bs in my science courses. Since that time, I went to graduate school and became a occupational therapist/hand therapist. Working with hand surgeons has motivated me to consider applying again to become a hand surgeon! I am not sure where I stand in terms of being able to get into a program however.

My overall GPA from undergrad was 3.71 and my science GPA was 3.08.

I took a few Bio and math classes post-bac to apply to grad school, and I made straight As. If these counted towards my science GPA, I would have a slightly better 3.3.

I am wondering if the the post bac classes count or not. They were from a community college. I was also thinking about taking online biochem to boost my science GPA and prepare for the MCAT. Not sure if it will make any difference however.

My grad GPA was a 3.99 by the way, but I am not sure if any of the schools will care. I am unfortunately tied to looking at mostly CA schools, so I know I am facing long odds.

Thanks for the advice!

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[xDNA]

I believe sGPA are BCPM classes so (Bio, Chem, Phys, Math).

Grad gpa is separate from UG overall GPA in AMCAS I think. Post-bac courses WOULD count towards your sGPA. This is my understanding. I'm not sure how many credits you have, but idk, if one online biochem class will move your sGPA much. As non-traditional students/career changers you aren't really taking those classes to improve your GPA, you take those classes to get the necessary prerequisites filled and to show them you can excel in those high level courses ESPECIALLY if your sGPA is lower than average.

I'm pretty sure CA is one of the most competitive states for pre-meds. So yeah it'll be difficult. For MD you definitely need to crush the MCAT since you're geographically locked.

Also, I don't think your Grad program will hold much weight outside of the clinical experience gained. I mean its obviously great you got a 4.0 and you can show that, but I think grad GPA is more heavily weighted if the grad program was a SMP or formal Post-bac since those tend to mimic Med school curricula.

 

[Bonne Nuit]

Undergraduate (including post-bac) Biology, Chemistry, Physics, and Mathematics (BCPM) coursework counts towards your science GPA for AMCAS (MD applications), and I believe Biology/Chemistry/Physics (but not math) counts towards the sGPA for AACOMAS (DO schools). You can look at both AMCAS and AACOMAS course classification guides on their respective websites to cross-reference with your transcripts. There are AMCAS/AACOMAS GPA calculators available online too, if you want to see exactly where you stand.

As you know, you're in a tough spot as a Californian with a low(ish) sGPA. With a great MCAT, you could be competitive for some DO schools in your state. You will have a much better chance at success if you're willing to expand your school list into more Western states, so I encourage you to keep an open mind.

I don't know that MD is in the cards with your present GPA, regardless of MCAT score. MD is extremely competitive for Californians even with perfect GPAs. You really need to nail the MCAT to be competitive for California MD in addition to ticking off all the other boxes (GPA, extracurriculars, research, essays). Unfortunately, while your grad GPA is great, it won't count for all that much in med school admissions.

If staying in California is absolutely nonnegotiable, you should seriously consider taking upper division science coursework at a local 4 year university to improve your sGPA. Online/CC credits are usually not preferred, so take these classes in person for a few semesters and get all As. A strong upward sGPA trend combined with a good MCAT could make you competitive for California MD schools.

 

[handnerd]

Undergraduate (including post-bac) Biology, Chemistry, Physics, and Mathematics (BCPM) coursework counts towards your science GPA for AMCAS (MD applications), and I believe Biology/Chemistry/Physics (but not math) counts towards the sGPA for AACOMAS (DO schools). You can look at both AMCAS and AACOMAS course classification guides on their respective websites to cross-reference with your transcripts. There are AMCAS/AACOMAS GPA calculators available online too, if you want to see exactly where you stand.

As you know, you're in a tough spot as a Californian with a low(ish) sGPA. With a great MCAT, you could be competitive for some DO schools in your state. You will have a much better chance at success if you're willing to expand your school list into more Western states, so I encourage you to keep an open mind.

I don't know that MD is in the cards with your present GPA, regardless of MCAT score. MD is extremely competitive for Californians even with perfect GPAs. You really need to nail the MCAT to be competitive for California MD in addition to ticking off all the other boxes (GPA, extracurriculars, research, essays). Unfortunately, while your grad GPA is great, it won't count for all that much in med school admissions.

If staying in California is absolutely nonnegotiable, you should seriously consider taking upper division science coursework at a local 4 year university to improve your sGPA. Online/CC credits are usually not preferred, so take these classes in person for a few semesters and get all As. A strong upward sGPA trend combined with a good MCAT could make you competitive for California MD schools.

Thanks for the advice! I can actually do other schools in Western states. Seattle, Salt Lake City, and Denver could all be options. As far as I could tell I would be at a disadvantage for being out of state at these schools though. Texas is also an option, but they heavily favor in state as well. If you have any suggestions for out of state schools that could be less competitive let me know! Quitting my job to take classes would be pretty difficult.

 

[handnerd]

I believe sGPA are BCPM classes so (Bio, Chem, Phys, Math).

Grad gpa is separate from UG overall GPA in AMCAS I think. Post-bac courses WOULD count towards your sGPA. This is my understanding. I'm not sure how many credits you have, but idk, if one online biochem class will move your sGPA much. As non-traditional students/career changers you aren't really taking those classes to improve your GPA, you take those classes to get the necessary prerequisites filled and to show them you can excel in those high level courses ESPECIALLY if your sGPA is lower than average.

I'm pretty sure CA is one of the most competitive states for pre-meds. So yeah it'll be difficult. For MD you definitely need to crush the MCAT since you're geographically locked.

Also, I don't think your Grad program will hold much weight outside of the clinical experience gained. I mean its obviously great you got a 4.0 and you can show that, but I think grad GPA is more heavily weighted if the grad program was a SMP or formal Post-bac since those tend to mimic Med school curricula.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[GreenDuck12]

Thanks for the advice! I can actually do other schools in Western states. Seattle, Salt Lake City, and Denver could all be options. As far as I could tell I would be at a disadvantage for being out of state at these schools though. Texas is also an option, but they heavily favor in state as well. If you have any suggestions for out of state schools that could be less competitive let me know! Quitting my job to take classes would be pretty difficult.

Are you open to other areas? Keep in mind that most folks apply to a minimum of 15 programs with many folks applying to more programs if their state is really competitive or if their stats are on the lower side. Are you also open to DO programs? Unfortunately, there aren't very many MD programs in the cities you listed above: UW is one of the most competitive programs in the country, Utah, and Colorado are quite similar. If you are open to DO programs, that will open some additional options for CA/ the west coast.

 

[handnerd]

Are you open to other areas? Keep in mind that most folks apply to a minimum of 15 programs with many folks applying to more programs if their state is really competitive or if their stats are on the lower side. Are you also open to DO programs? Unfortunately, there aren't very many MD programs in the cities you listed above: UW is one of the most competitive programs in the country, Utah, and Colorado are quite similar. If you are open to DO programs, that will open some additional options for CA/ the west coast.

I am concerned about matching into ortho residency from a DO. It seems like an expensive risk if I am dead set on ortho. And I will try to add a few cities to the list. The reality of doing this later in life is that you wind up balancing a spouse's career options with your school choices. That's why my list is a bit short. It may just not be possible unless I am willing to completely turn my life upside down.

 

[GreenDuck12]

Totally get where you are coming from and it is hard to balance both increasing your odds of receiving an acceptance and being a supportive spouse. That being said, there are significantly more medical schools and especially private schools on the east coast. Generally speaking, I also caution prospective students to be wary of pursuing a career in medicine if they are dead set on one specific specialty, especially an uber competitive one like ortho, derm, plastics, etc. The reality is that there are so few spaces and competition is so fierce especially. I usually tell folks that if they cannot see themselves being happy in multiple specialties, and not just the most competitive specialties, or primary care to seriously reconsider applying to medical school.

 

[handnerd]

Totally get where you are coming from and it is hard to balance both increasing your odds of receiving an acceptance and being a supportive spouse. That being said, there are significantly more medical schools and especially private schools on the east coast. Generally speaking, I also caution prospective students to be wary of pursuing a career in medicine if they are dead set on one specific specialty, especially an uber competitive one like ortho, derm, plastics, etc. The reality is that there are so few spaces and competition is so fierce especially. I usually tell folks that if they cannot see themselves being happy in multiple specialties, and not just the most competitive specialties, or primary care to seriously reconsider applying to medical school.

Yes I was wondering about that. It's tough to see anything outside of ortho. I am beginning to feel like it's not even worth studying for the MCAT. Luckily I do like my current career. It's just frustrating because I feel like I could do more. I work quite closely with several hand surgeons and have a good window into the field.

 

[GreenDuck12]

Yes I was wondering about that. It's tough to see anything outside of ortho. I am beginning to feel like it's not even worth studying for the MCAT. Luckily I do like my current career. It's just frustrating because I feel like I could do more. I work quite closely with several hand surgeons and have a good window into the field.

And it's great to have an area that you are interested in and passionate about. You can use that both prior to and after starting medical school to build up your CV. The hard part is that once you get 4 years into training, you find out which specialty you match into and won't necessarily have a lot of options to change. One of my good friends was gutted this spring when they got their step 1 score that will likely rule them out of most optho programs. They had wanted to be an ophthalmologist since they were quite young and now are contemplating not moving onto residency. To be sure, there are things one can do with an MD/DO degree without necessarily practicing medicine. A lot of folks also change areas of interest over the course of med school. With that being said, I really think its important for folks going into medicine to keep an open mind and be open to other specialties - its just too hard to predict what may happen in medical school, during rotations, sub-i's, auditions, and the match. Everyone at this level is excellent. Our dean likes to remind first years that "half of you will be in the bottom half of this class; 85% of you believe you won't be among them."

Best of luck to you.

 

[handnerd]

And it's great to have an area that you are interested in and passionate about. You can use that both prior to and after starting medical school to build up your CV. The hard part is that once you get 4 years into training, you find out which specialty you match into and won't necessarily have a lot of options to change. One of my good friends was gutted this spring when they got their step 1 score that will likely rule them out of most optho programs. They had wanted to be an ophthalmologist since they were quite young and now are contemplating not moving onto residency. To be sure, there are things one can do with an MD/DO degree without necessarily practicing medicine. A lot of folks also change areas of interest over the course of med school. With that being said, I really think its important for folks going into medicine to keep an open mind and be open to other specialties - its just too hard to predict what may happen in medical school, during rotations, sub-i's, auditions, and the match. Everyone at this level is excellent. Our dean likes to remind first years that "half of you will be in the bottom half of this class; 85% of you believe you won't be among them."

Best of luck to you.

Thanks. You bring up a lot of good points. Good luck to you too!

 

[Bonne Nuit]

Thanks for the advice! I can actually do other schools in Western states. Seattle, Salt Lake City, and Denver could all be options. As far as I could tell I would be at a disadvantage for being out of state at these schools though. Texas is also an option, but they heavily favor in state as well. If you have any suggestions for out of state schools that could be less competitive let me know! Quitting my job to take classes would be pretty difficult.

As private schools, most DO programs in the West will be favorable to OOS, and that's what you're competitive for right now. So you'll have a good amount of options there.

I read the advice @GreenDuck12 gave to you and I agree with them completely - there's nothing more I can add there.

Have you considered podiatry? There are a few programs in CA/Western US. I know podiatry has a good amount of overlap with ortho, and I don't think you'd have to do much (if any) GPA repair to be competitive for those programs. Just a thought.

 

[handnerd]

As private schools, most DO programs in the West will be favorable to OOS, and that's what you're competitive for right now. So you'll have a good amount of options there.

I read the advice @GreenDuck12 gave to you and I agree with them completely - there's nothing more I can add there.

Have you considered podiatry? There are a few programs in CA/Western US. I know podiatry has a good amount of overlap with ortho, and I don't think you'd have to do much (if any) GPA repair to be competitive for those programs. Just a thought.

Thank you for reading this over. I am weighing several decisions. 1. Take some post-bacc courses for GPA repair and extend the process a year. 2. Try to crush the MCAT and hope for one of the least competitive schools - I might have a shot at Riverside. 3. Decide it's not meant to be and maybe research podiatry/or PA. Do you think grade repair could increase my chances substantially or do you think I am still likely to get screened out?

 

[handnerd]

Thank you for reading this over. I am weighing several decisions. 1. Take some post-bacc courses for GPA repair and extend the process a year. 2. Try to crush the MCAT and hope for one of the least competitive schools - I might have a shot at Riverside. 3. Decide it's not meant to be and maybe research podiatry/or PA. Do you think grade repair could increase my chances substantially or do you think I am still likely to get screened out?

I suppose DO I am option too but I think I'd need to be way more okay with another specialty.

 

[Dral]

A lot of things to consider. Is it more important to you to be a physician or to be a hand surgeon?

I started thinking Neuro/IM but ended up in derm/dermpath. You might be surprised at how your thoughts change once you matriculate and move through med school.

 

[handnerd]

As of now I am pretty attached to orthopedics. Less so to hands, but it does make sense for a smaller stature individual. Of course interests could change in med school! But it seems foolish to invest the time and money into a program that does not offer much chance of getting into this specialty. In the past, I went to graduate school wanting to be a hand therapist. I was told to keep an open mind regarding other specialties but nothing else peaked my interest. I worked hard to get into a top Ortho facility. It would have been beneficial if I had this vision and work ethic in undergrad!

 

[Bonne Nuit]

Thank you for reading this over. I am weighing several decisions. 1. Take some post-bacc courses for GPA repair and extend the process a year. 2. Try to crush the MCAT and hope for one of the least competitive schools - I might have a shot at Riverside. 3. Decide it's not meant to be and maybe research podiatry/or PA. Do you think grade repair could increase my chances substantially or do you think I am still likely to get screened out?

Ensure you're researching schools' missions while you start planning. UC Riverside, for example, favors Inland Empire applicants and/or their own undergraduates. Loma Linda is another strongly mission-centered (religious) program. If you don't meet these schools' very specific missions at the time of your application, you are unlikely to have much success.

It seems like medical schools, especially for postbac students, have started emphasizing applicants' last 50-80 credits rather than looking at the overall GPAs in isolation. If you can put a few semesters of 4.0 coursework behind you, you will make yourself much more competitive in terms of GPA only. From there, it's on you to segue that into an acceptance by obtaining a stellar MCAT score and ECs (leadership, shadowing, research, volunteering, clinical experience). How are your ECs, by the way?

To wrap up, here is where I'll make a plug for you shadowing a primary care physician before you apply. Since very few MDs end up in ortho (and you, of course, won't know if this specialty is accessible to you until much later on in medical school), I highly recommend spending at least 40 hours with an internal medicine or family medicine doctor now. You need shadowing for your application anyway and primary care shadowing is always a plus. But the major reason is that, statistically, most medical students end up in a primary care specialty. You need to have some familiarity with other common careers for medical graduates, should ortho not work out.

 

[xDNA]

I know this is the less common road taken, but you can do Hand Surgery after Gen Surg Residency.

 

[handnerd]

Ensure you're researching schools' missions while you start planning. UC Riverside, for example, favors Inland Empire applicants and/or their own undergraduates. Loma Linda is another strongly mission-centered (religious) program. If you don't meet these schools' very specific missions at the time of your application, you are unlikely to have much success.

It seems like medical schools, especially for postbac students, have started emphasizing applicants' last 50-80 credits rather than looking at the overall GPAs in isolation. If you can put a few semesters of 4.0 coursework behind you, you will make yourself much more competitive in terms of GPA only. From there, it's on you to segue that into an acceptance by obtaining a stellar MCAT score and ECs (leadership, shadowing, research, volunteering, clinical experience). How are your ECs, by the way?

To wrap up, here is where I'll make a plug for you shadowing a primary care physician before you apply. Since very few MDs end up in ortho (and you, of course, won't know if this specialty is accessible to you until much later on in medical school), I highly recommend spending at least 40 hours with an internal medicine or family medicine doctor now. You need shadowing for your application anyway and primary care shadowing is always a plus. But the major reason is that, statistically, most medical students end up in a primary care specialty. You need to have some familiarity with other common careers for medical graduates, should ortho not work out.

First off, you make so many good points. Here is my response to a few of your questions and comments.

I have lived in the Inland Empire for the past 7 years, so hopefully that counts. I actually commute an hour to work with an excellent hand surgeon because the healthcare in the area is so lacking.

My ECs are as follows: president of global brigades chapter at my UG, led a public health mission in Honduras. Hours volunteering at a community clinic in UG. Spent several years working for a non-profit who's mission was to expose under privileged children to the outdoors. 2nd in my class in grad school. president of grad school honors society. currently have advanced practice certification in wound care and hand therapy and over 3000 clinical hours of practice experience. Extensive time shadowing upper extremity surgeons. In the process of clinical research but am unlikely to be published by the time that I apply unfortunately. I have no idea if these look good or not. I haven't been doing these activities with the intent to get into medical school so idk.

I also have a strong upward trend. I have not made anything other than a B since junior year in UG.

You are right that I have to make a choice and be okay with an outcome that is not hand surgery. However, I am somewhat buoyed by the facts that plastics and general surg could also be a way to a fellowship.

Perhaps I am being crazy optimistic! I appreciate the feedback.

 

[xDNA]

I think OP you just gotta want to be PHYSICIAN more than you want to be a HAND SURGEON. Gen surg is definitely achieveable from D.O programs, and I'm pretty sure there were AOA Ortho residencies for D.O students. So it wouldn't be impossible, just hard. But this is medicine, everything is hard and there isnt really any certainty.

 

[Bonne Nuit]

First off, you make so many good points. Here is my response to a few of your questions and comments.

I have lived in the Inland Empire for the past 7 years, so hopefully that counts. I actually commute an hour to work with an excellent hand surgeon because the healthcare in the area is so lacking.

My ECs are as follows: president of global brigades chapter at my UG, led a public health mission in Honduras. Hours volunteering at a community clinic in UG. Spent several years working for a non-profit who's mission was to expose under privileged children to the outdoors. 2nd in my class in grad school. president of grad school honors society. currently have advanced practice certification in wound care and hand therapy and over 3000 clinical hours of practice experience. Extensive time shadowing upper extremity surgeons. In the process of clinical research but am unlikely to be published by the time that I apply unfortunately. I have no idea if these look good or not. I haven't been doing these activities with the intent to get into medical school so idk.

I also have a strong upward trend. I have not made anything other than a B since junior year in UG.

You are right that I have to make a choice and be okay with an outcome that is not hand surgery. However, I am somewhat buoyed by the facts that plastics and general surg could also be a way to a fellowship.

Perhaps I am being crazy optimistic! I appreciate the feedback.

Sounds like UCR is an excellent target school for you, then. Your ECs look great and the lack of publication is not a big deal. With a bit of GPA repair and a good MCAT, you will be well on your way. Best of luck.

 

[handnerd]

A lot of things to consider. Is it more important to you to be a physician or to be a hand surgeon?

I started thinking Neuro/IM but ended up in derm/dermpath. You might be surprised at how your thoughts change once you matriculate and move through med school.

It's a good question! Thanks for asking. Physician seems so abstract to me!

 

[handnerd]

Thank you all for taking the time to give me lots of great advice and ask tough questions. I am not sure where I will end up but have more knowledge now. Good luck to all of you in medical school or applying. To the physicians that respond I hope you are loving it!