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Trying to understand DO EM programs...

uro

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I'm having trouble understanding DO EM programs. It seems like a lot of DO's want to go into EM, and that it's very difficult to get into an MD EM program. So, my question is why don't DO's just go ahead and go to the DO EM programs.

For example, here's one that I just pulled out at random from do-online.org:

PA 125286 PCOM/PHILADELPHIA CONSORTIUM PHILADELPHIA EM 3 1 2

If I'm reading this right it shows that this program in Philly had 3 available slots, but only 1 of them filled. Philly seems like a nice town to get a lot of exposure to EM, and I see in the EM forum that a lot of DO students want to go into to EM, so I don't understand why they just didn't go to this one?
 

uro

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The more I look at the do-online.org match results, the more confused I get. Here's the only other DO EM program in all of the Pennsylvania that's listed, and it didn't fill either:

PA 146398 LECOM/SAINT VINCENT HEALTH CNTR ERIE EM 4 3 1

Am I reading this right? If so, what's wrong with these programs?
 
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The Tolf

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The more I look at the do-online.org match results, the more confused I get. Here's the only other DO EM program in all of the Pennsylvania that's listed, and it didn't fill either:

PA 146398 LECOM/SAINT VINCENT HEALTH CNTR ERIE EM 4 3 1

Am I reading this right? If so, what's wrong with these programs?

I am an MS2 at UNECOM, and the ACOEP-Student Chapter President is a friend of mine at school. I've had many of the same questions, and he has helped alot.

You are reading this right, there are openings in DO EM residencies. I think the biggest reason is that people have a hard time deciding on which match to do- the February AOA or the March ACGME. If you want to match at ACGME programs, but wouldnt mind doing AOA programs, most people skip the AOA match and simply do the ACGME match.

The other thing to keep in mind is this: There are good ACGME EM residencies and there are bad ones, and the same applies to AOA EM residencies. So just keep searching for programs, and plan 4th year rotations to get a feel for the program.
 

Panacea Light

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The more I look at the do-online.org match results, the more confused I get. Here's the only other DO EM program in all of the Pennsylvania that's listed, and it didn't fill either:

PA 146398 LECOM/SAINT VINCENT HEALTH CNTR ERIE EM 4 3 1

Am I reading this right? If so, what's wrong with these programs?


Hope this post helps, There are about 5 DO programs in PA itself. Look at the opportunites section of do -online and check out the residency programs. I know that the program affiliated with PCOM you brought up on a previous post, which is Albert Einstein in Philly also participates in the allo match and gets most of their residents from that match. I can only speculate that most of my fellow DO's find more allo programs better in quality and don't want to do the total 4 years of EM residency that is required in DO residencies. Also, most DO EM residencies don't even have websites so it is difficult to get much info. on them. Hope this made sense.

"Don't forget in the Light, what you learned in the darkness"
 

uro

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Hope this post helps, There are about 5 DO programs in PA itself. Look at the opportunites section of do -online and check out the residency programs. I know that the program affiliated with PCOM you brought up on a previous post, which is Albert Einstein in Philly also participates in the allo match and gets most of their residents from that match. I can only speculate that most of my fellow DO's find more allo programs better in quality and don't want to do the total 4 years of EM residency that is required in DO residencies. Also, most DO EM residencies don't even have websites so it is difficult to get much info. on them. Hope this made sense.
Yeah, this seems to be in agreement with what is being said in the osteopathic forums too. The problem appears to be quality.
 

AR1776

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I can't handle repeating every reason why not to match DO. We have this conversation about every 2 months here on SDN. Try searching the old posts. I certainly do not want to sacrifice the 3 (4 if you go the DO way since they require internship years) most important years of my education on a less than par residency. Please stop complaining about how unfair it is until you throughly research and understand it.
 

uro

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I can't handle repeating every reason why not to match DO. We have this conversation about every 2 months here on SDN. Try searching the old posts. I certainly do not want to sacrifice the 3 (4 if you go the DO way since they require internship years) most important years of my education on a less than par residency. Please stop complaining about how unfair it is until you throughly research and understand it.
Not sure if this is directed at me, but I'm not complaining that it's unfair. I'm just trying to understand it. I'm actually pre-med and just trying to decide whether SGU or a DO school will be better for me in the end if I want something competitive like EM. I did a search, but didn't find that much information. Saw a couple of anecdotal stories by DrQuinn, but not much else.

One of the big selling points at the DO schools I've been to is, "Well, we've got all of these 'extra' DO residency spots." But then when I see the DO match results it looks like nobody even wants these spots. Just trying to understand why before I take the big leap of faith and choose one over the other.
 

uro

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I am an MS2 at UNECOM, and the ACOEP-Student Chapter President is a friend of mine at school. I've had many of the same questions, and he has helped alot.

You are reading this right, there are openings in DO EM residencies. I think the biggest reason is that people have a hard time deciding on which match to do- the February AOA or the March ACGME. If you want to match at ACGME programs, but wouldnt mind doing AOA programs, most people skip the AOA match and simply do the ACGME match.

The other thing to keep in mind is this: There are good ACGME EM residencies and there are bad ones, and the same applies to AOA EM residencies. So just keep searching for programs, and plan 4th year rotations to get a feel for the program.
So, it sounds like almost all DO's (at least those wanting EM) are willing to completely skip a virtually guaranteed spot in the earlier AOA match to gamble in the later very, very competitive ACGME match.

That indicates to me that AOA programs much be of much lower quality. No? From unfilled positions alone, it would appear that >60% of AOA programs are "bad," and maybe <1% of ACGME EM programs are bad. Would that be an accurate ratio?
 

kungfufishing

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Not true. I would say that the AOA programs are of more variable quality whereas the ACGME programs have a more uniform standard. Some DO programs offer good training. The problem is that others offer less volume, acuity, and academic structure than the ACGME would allow. Search some old posts.
 

AR1776

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By the way, I would chose a DO school over an MD school again but would still go to an MD residency (at least for EM), but I haven't matched yet. There's many threads whey people chose DO or MD if you search.
 

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Uro,

I think your understanding of the situation is accurate. But you've only touched upon probably 50% of what goes on. If your'e main goal is to become an EM doctor, then you would be fine going the DO or MD route as long as either is okay by you.

The AOA and ACGME governing bodies for EM residency programs have an unbelievable amount of stipulation and reinforcement in play as to the quality of resident education. This in and of itself will probably gaurantee that you'd be an excellent EM physician as long as you are motivated and have a good grasp of the basics. Remember, of the practicing EM physicians in the USA, over 20% are DOs. The number is growing.

Every year there are unfilled spots in the AOA match. The reasoning is obvious and you have already stated it in your previous comments. Many DO candidates apply to only ACGME spots due to quality of residency issues. Fortunately, many DOs make it into these allopathic spots. I'm sure there is resentment on the part of allopathic medical students who don't match, but what it comes down to is the quality of the applicant, not the title you have. And by the way, most of these DO EM programs fill in the scramble later on.

Most EM DO residencies are base out of community type hosptials. As such, there is no funding from a large university hospital, no state funding, no paid faculty, no major research, no extra perks. Many of these programs require their residents to rotate at Trauma centers in another city. These trauma centers are usually already claimed by another allopathic residency program. Fortunately, many of these off service rotations only last a few months 2-4 at most.

It's obvious then, that most candidates will try to match into a program that provides the best education possible. With that said, it is likely to be the best funded programs. Money talks. Allopathic programs have money for the above stated reasons.

There is much more to consider. Many DOs are quite happy with their ostepathic EM programs. The good trade offs that stand out in my mind w/ DO residencies vs the later is more quality time with faculty, better and more cohesive working environments, more time for investment in the individual. This may not be unique to just osteopathic programs however. Almost seems like a small college vs a large university decision. Thats the way I percieve it in my mind anyway.

If you look closely, you'll see a select few DO EM programs that always fill. These are generally the well established programs. For example, the program I'm at Lehigh Valley in PA has our own Trauma Center. We had the most trauma visits in PA last year. Furthermore, we have paid faculty fully invested in resident education. Although we are technically a community program, the funding behind the hospital allows for an awesome program without the negatives of an academic institution. We have allopathic residents rotating at our hospital, which is ironic. Anyways, not all programs are 100% alike.
 

DrQuinn

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I agree with Aloha, a very good and relatively objective post.

There are some GREAT DO EM programs out there. Which may even be better than some MD EM programs.

But there are also some poo-poo DO EM programs out there, too. These are the programs that *likely* do not fill every year, have a low volume, have funding issues, faculty leaving, etc.

At the OP's stage in teh game, its way too early to really be concerned about MD vs. DO in re: to getting into residency. And very short-sighted, but that's my opinion.

Q
 

The Tolf

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maybe a crazy question, but hopefully ya'll can help.

just about to start med school (D.O.), looking towards EM. Is there a list of the EMresidencies (MD and DO) that can give rank, size, etc.

Thanks!

For residency searches, check out these sites:
DO residencies- http://opportunities.osteopathic.org/ and click program search.
MD residencies- http://www.ama-assn.org/vapp/freida/srch/

I suggest searching for programs, and then check the website of each program for more detailed info. There is a lot of good information out there, but beware, some might be slow to update web information!
 

SIMRAN111

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I cannot agree more with Aloha Kid... There were unmatched spots in the allopathic match in EM in programs such as Hopkins last year..
There are a lot of factors why programs can be unfilled and the reasons for an osteo match are by far more for being unfilled ... since the limited # of applicants from the 20 osteo schools can apply to 3 matches- osteo, allo or military... That being said just bz a program is unfilled does not necessarily mean it is of a low quality program. There are many programs in the country from Derm, orhoped surg, to EM that are both AOA and ACMGE accredited. where they have spots reserved for DO students from allo match.

I interviewed at most programs at NJ, NY and central PA from both the allo and osteo side. I did not seem to notice a difference in the outlook or the caliber of the programs I interviewed at. I also rotated at most programs both allo and osteo.. I felt that most of the osteo programs had more hands on experience compared to strictly allo institutions. In some of the osteo hospital the residents were doing twice the # of LP, had one to one exposure with attendings... But this was strictly my expereicne ... I will not jump to conclusion if you go to a DO program, your quality training is not at par.. since many of these grads of the DO program end up being the Medical Director of the Allo EM program
 

Bleurberry

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By the way, I would chose a DO school over an MD school again but would still go to an MD residency (at least for EM), but I haven't matched yet. There's many threads whey people chose DO or MD if you search.
You seem to know what's going on, my friend.
I'm heading to PCOM and going to do the
EM residency through Albert Einstein with a bit of
luck. Do I have your blessing? ;)

Regards,

Alexander
 

SIMRAN111

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You seem to know what's going on, my friend.
I'm heading to PCOM and going to do the
EM residency through Albert Einstein with a bit of
luck. Do I have your blessing? ;)

Regards,

Alexander


Albert Einstein is both an allopathic and an oteopathic EM program, i.e. they accept applicants from both the matches. There are both good and bad allo and osteo EM programs...
 

shortbread9

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as a DO MS4...i get really frustrated when my fellow DO's tend to not really look into any allopathic programs. this is not just EM directed but generally speaking. I have lots of friends that kicked butt on boards are are overall great students and yet they choose DO residency's b/c they are so worried they will not be accepted into the MD world. i feel osteopathic schools never push their students. this is from personal experience but they really try to steer people away from the usmle thinking its just sooo hard for us...when in fact its far better than the comlex. To all those DO students that are not at that point yet....please remember to think higly of yourself and no matter what you want to go into...take a chance; take the usmle and apply allopathic. for the best education and for the best career opportunities when your done. especially if you want to work in a big city and not necessarily want to stay in MI, PA, NY. again...im not bashing any DO residencys...their are some great programs...even for EM...but you have to be careful and think beyond. It really helps to be board certified and many DO programs will not expose you to as much pathology and procedures as the md counterparts. those were my main worries going in to it...because i have seen programs with those problems...it wasnt pretty. lots of senior residents that couldnt put in a central line after trying 10 times.
if you think the DO way is the best for you..i would go anywhere in PA, arrowhead in Cali (fantastic place) and i think there are some good ones in NY.

Stay away from MI (despite of what others say...im from here and rotated throughout) and FL.

PM with any questions
 

pushinepi2

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as a DO MS4...i get really frustrated when my fellow DO's tend to not really look into any allopathic programs. this is not just EM directed but generally speaking. I have lots of friends that kicked butt on boards are are overall great students and yet they choose DO residency's b/c they are so worried they will not be accepted into the MD world. i feel osteopathic schools never push their students. this is from personal experience but they really try to steer people away from the usmle thinking its just sooo hard for us...when in fact its far better than the comlex. To all those DO students that are not at that point yet....please remember to think higly of yourself and no matter what you want to go into...take a chance; take the usmle and apply allopathic. for the best education and for the best career opportunities when your done. especially if you want to work in a big city and not necessarily want to stay in MI, PA, NY. again...im not bashing any DO residencys...their are some great programs...even for EM...but you have to be careful and think beyond. It really helps to be board certified and many DO programs will not expose you to as much pathology and procedures as the md counterparts. those were my main worries going in to it...because i have seen programs with those problems...it wasnt pretty. lots of senior residents that couldnt put in a central line after trying 10 times.
if you think the DO way is the best for you..i would go anywhere in PA, arrowhead in Cali (fantastic place) and i think there are some good ones in NY.

Stay away from MI (despite of what others say...im from here and rotated throughout) and FL.

PM with any questions


Hmmm. I do appreciate your honesty, but there's more to be learned at a particular program than information gained on one rotation. I can't attest to the veracity of the claims made within your post, but such generalizations don't do justice to the hard working residents and faculty at some DO programs. My classmate is currently a junior resident at Henry Ford Wyandotte, in Michigan. He presented a poster at a national tox conference and absolutely loves his new program. I've heard nothing but excellent feedback from him concerning the emerging educational opportunities and challenging curriculum. I'd respectfully suggest that when you consider a DO program, make a concerted effort to engage one of the residents. I assure you that residents are NOT in the business of painting beautiful and inaccurate pictures of their training environment. It just seems a little unfair to pain all of the programs in Michigan as poor. I'm not saying that your opinion is unfounded; I'm merely encouraging applicants to go straight to the source.

-P
 
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