Trying to understand how school affects match location

[aerd]

I'm looking at the match lists for the two schools I'm debating between attending to get an idea of how many grads end up in my hometown. If a school has an average step score of around 240, that must mean that half of the class scored below that. Yet when I look at this school's match list, it's pretty much all prestigious programs and plenty of competitive specialties although half of the students must have a step 1 score below 240.

So my question is, do "top 20-ish" schools try to exchange graduates among themselves even if the student doesn't have an exceptional step 1 score?

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[libertyyne]

I'm looking at the match lists for the two schools I'm debating between attending to get an idea of how many grads end up in my hometown. If a school has an average step score of around 240, that must mean that half of the class scored below that. Yet when I look at this school's match list, it's pretty much all prestigious programs and plenty of competitive specialties although half of the students must have a step 1 score below 240.

So my question is, do "top 20-ish" schools try to exchange graduates among themselves even if the student doesn't have an exceptional step 1 score?

No body can quantify this. Go to the highest rank school you can.

 

[Psai]

There have been a few threads about this lately, especially in pre-allo where it's jalby vs premeds.

You can't read a match list as a premed. I'm not comfortable reading them as a resident, even in my own field. There are too many variables.

No one can give you a formula. There's no secret agreement between schools to exchange graduates. However, people at well regarded schools definitely have an advantage in the residency application process. Some programs are much harder to interview at even if you're a superstar coming from an average school, especially in the smaller fields. They have numbers on their side. Region is very important. If you look at the em application thread, you'll see people with 210s getting interviews at west coast programs that people with 250s from the east coast get snubbed from and the other way around.

Another thing is that residency directors are biased towards places they know. They favor the places that have given them good graduates in the past and will avoid superstars from places that have burned them. Some places are very incestuous and mostly take their own grads while others try to avoid taking their own.

No school can make you a superstar. Every school has amazing people as well as duds although the percentage varies. It's really dependent on your own abilities and effort.

Tldr; there's nothing you can do to predict success. Ignore match lists.

 

[BigRedBeta]

Another thing is that residency directors are biased towards places they know. They favor the places that have given them good graduates in the past and will avoid superstars from places that have burned them. Some places are very incestuous and mostly take their own grads while others try to avoid taking their own.

THIS.

There are patterns that develop over time, "relationships" that to an outsider must seem like some sort of quid pro quo, but are nothing other than the fact that a program has had a good set of experiences with grads from one particular place. It doesn't even have to be regional. My midwestern, primary care focused, med school had a well established pattern of sending grads to one particular Ivy League IM program year after year, and another major IM program on the West Coast that you would never expect when think of XYZ university.

Going to a highly ranked school is part of the equation, but probably really only gets your foot in the door. If you don't have the grades, LOR's and board scores, it doesn't matter where you go.

Lastly, you might want to brush up on your understanding of means and medians...

 

[Goro]

I'll make it easier for you......read these:

I'm looking at the match lists for the two schools I'm debating between attending to get an idea of how many grads end up in my hometown. If a school has an average step score of around 240, that must mean that half of the class scored below that. Yet when I look at this school's match list, it's pretty much all prestigious programs and plenty of competitive specialties although half of the students must have a step 1 score below 240.

So my question is, do "top 20-ish" schools try to exchange graduates among themselves even if the student doesn't have an exceptional step 1 score?

 

[OnePunchBiopsy]

I'll make it easier for you......read these:

Looks like one of those flow cytometry graphs on step 1.

 

[aerd]

THIS.

Going to a highly ranked school is part of the equation, but probably really only gets your foot in the door. If you don't have the grades, LOR's and board scores, it doesn't matter where you go.

Lastly, you might want to brush up on your understanding of means and medians...

I know the difference between mean and median lol, I'm simplifying for sake of asking the question. If the average is 236 I'm sure there's a good portion of people who scored below that, yet there are some match lists where nearly everyone is at a program that would be viewed as competitive in one way or another. That's why it's making me think that there's a lot of leeway in board scores if you're at a school with a good reputation.

 

[aerd]

Thank you for the replies. I see it's not something that has a clear cut answer, but I'm just so curious about what happens to the people at the "bottom of the top".

 

[abcdior]

go to the highest ranked school you can if you want the most lee-way in residency placement

academic pedigree matters, ALOT

learned this [the hard way?] myself

you might have your eyes set on something before you enter school but that may change, you end up shortchanging yourself by going to a lower ranked school and can't pivot out of it

 

[bannie22]

school rank helps. trust everyone who has chipped in. its worth the money you will be making it all back.

 

[Thenewguy02]

What about schools of a relatively similar rank?

If it cost me the same to go to Vanderbilt as it would cost to go to Washu, but I like Nashville more, would it hurt me at all to go to Vandy? Or Columbia Vs. Pritzker?
How would you think the Cleveland Clinic Learner College of Medicine fits into it?

 

[Shams al Deen]

Look at the match lists from this thread. I can only speak with a somewhat educated opinion on the IM match. And it is quite apparent that if you are from a "top 20" school then you have an astronomically higher chance of ending up at a "top 20" IM residency. Now whether you think this matters as far as your training as a good physician or your career goals is definitely up for debate.

However, it is obvious is that you get a ton of leeway if you go to a top school (especially top 5). Because like you said, 50%of HMS kids score below 240, but almost all of them are matching at prestigious, highly sought after programs. So if you think being at a top residency will help your career goals, then go to the better regarded medical school.

 

[sammiesings]

No body can quantify this. Go to the highest rank school you can.

I could only ever co sign this if you're considering a top 20 v a top 100 or unranked. Otherwise, not enough of a thing to justify not going where you want or spending the extra money. In my opinion.

 

[sliceofbread136]

What about schools of a relatively similar rank?

If it cost me the same to go to Vanderbilt as it would cost to go to Washu, but I like Nashville more, would it hurt me at all to go to Vandy? Or Columbia Vs. Pritzker?
How would you think the Cleveland Clinic Learner College of Medicine fits into it?

Washu would have a slight advantage but nothing earth shattering. My guess is Columbia and pritzker is pretty much a wash. Cleveland clinic would not be as good as any of those 4

 

[Naijaba]

I'm one of those students who went to a top school and matched to a top residency, despite a < 240 step score. I got into a top med school because of my interesting background, and I got into residency because of my interesting background. That's the revelation you seek. As a general summary of top schools, you'll get 75% of your class from Ivy league undergrads with perfect grades, while the other half will come from interesting background stories (disadvantaged minority, software developer, former Green Beret, published creative author, etc.), or some combination of good grades + unique background. The students who went to Ivy undergrads are much better at studying than I am and their performance on standardized tests reflects this fact. A fun fact about residencies is that interesting and personable trumps >260 board score. The very top will select those interesting and personable people who also have >240 board scores, but there are enough spaces left over that go to the remaining distinctive individuals.

 

[sliceofbread136]

I'm one of those students who went to a top school and matched to a top residency, despite a < 240 step score. I got into a top med school because of my interesting background, and I got into residency because of my interesting background. That's the revelation you seek. As a general summary of top schools, you'll get 75% of your class from Ivy league undergrads with perfect grades, while the other half will come from interesting background stories (disadvantaged minority, software developer, former Green Beret, published creative author, etc.), or some combination of good grades + unique background. The students who went to Ivy undergrads are much better at studying than I am and their performance on standardized tests reflects this fact. A fun fact about residencies is that interesting and personable trumps >260 board score. The very top will select those interesting and personable people who also have >240 board scores, but there are enough spaces left over that go to the remaining distinctive individuals.

Honestly I don't totally agree with you. It didn't seem to me that being interesting mattered as much as it did in Med school and it was more about finding the people who would be at the forefront of their future field. Activities that have practical application to this goal (leadership, research, creativity) gave huge boosts, while activities that didn't did not have the same impact


Also having a great medical school name does have an impact in and of itself. Every residency wants those harvards on their roster

 

[Naijaba]

Honestly I don't totally agree with you. It didn't seem to me that being interesting mattered as much as it did in Med school and it was more about finding the people who would be at the forefront of their future field. Activities that have practical application to this goal (leadership, research, creativity) gave huge boosts, while activities that didn't did not have the same impact


Also having a great medical school name does have an impact in and of itself. Every residency wants those harvards on their roster

Sure, I agree with you. I think leadership and research are very important too, as is the name-brand.

 

[ChordaEpiphany]

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[Astra]

There have been a few threads about this lately, especially in pre-allo where it's jalby vs premeds.

If this was a TV show, I'd watch it.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Hard not to agree with this. PDs select low-performing Harvard grads over high performing middle-tier grads because it affects perception. When you really think about it it's hilarious. Basically the concept is to select lower-quality students because if you select higher quality students then your next batch of applications will be lower quality students due to damaged perception. The result is an Ivy League circle jerk.

I think the answer to this is probably to encourage PDs to publish step score ranges and general class ranks of their programs (much like how med schools publish GPA and MCAT). However, the system as is benefits the big names immensely because they are basically the best by default. They'd never go for it because they'd have to give up the massive advantages they have in placing their students and continuing the self-fulfilling prophecy of success in their students. Ivies exchange their students and inbreed extensively. Which residencies got the "best students"? The Ivies, because they got the most students from top med schools. Which med schools match to the "best residencies"? The Ivies, because their med students match to the best residencies.

If you don't believe this is happening, look at WashU. Known to be stat-heavy in admissions because it's hard for them to get a class that has both great stats and well-rounded personalities due to their geography. They overload on 40+ MCATs to ensure they look sufficiently competitive for the next year's admissions cycle (and thus attract more high-stat applicants). Then they engage in hilarious amounts of residency inbreeding, and why? Same reason as before. Not many people from the east or west coast, even at mid-high tier schools, will consider going out there. How could a "top" hospital only fill its residency class with mid tier students? It would look unbecoming, so they inbreed to make up the difference, and most of their top students go elsewhere.

This specifically is actually an interesting discussion point. Through my own experience in pediatrics, there were some programs in undersirable places (baylor, cinci) that were reputable than places in more desirable locations (UCSF, stanford). If you look at the resident rosters, the more desirable locations often blew the less desirable places out of the water but the less desirable place still maintains the better reputation. Cinci is an especially interesting example as their medical school is not even near the top twenty. It seems there are definitely ways to make up for not being able to attract top tier applicants aside from in-breeding.

 

[ChordaEpiphany]

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[theNDhopeful44]

What about schools of a relatively similar rank?

If it cost me the same to go to Vanderbilt as it would cost to go to Washu, but I like Nashville more, would it hurt me at all to go to Vandy? Or Columbia Vs. Pritzker?
How would you think the Cleveland Clinic Learner College of Medicine fits into it?

All your posts indicate that you would be happier at Vanderbilt if you aren't admitted to Yale from their waitlist. As everyone here has told you, the rank of all these schools (Vandy, WashU, Cleveland Clinic) are equivalent, and you will not be at a disadvantage by attending any of them.

I hope you choose Vandy if Yale doesn't end up working out.