Tufts MBS vs Loyola MAMS/MSMP

[lolcat]

Hey guys, I've been literally pulling my hair out trying to decide what program is best for me, and don't have much longer to decide! I've been accepted into Loyola MAMS and Tufts SMP, and I'll be hearing from Loyola MSMP next week.

My goals: I don't care when I get in med school (apply during program or after) but my preference is to gain an MD acceptance. Coming back to FL would be nice (preferably UCF or UF).

I have a ~3.45sgpa and 29 MCAT (got 30 after retake). I realize I may have to retake the MCAT I'm completely cool with that. I feel MAMS or MSMP will give me more time to study for it though, after comparing curriculum of both programs. I also want to be able to beef up my ECs (shadowing/volunteering).

Program pros/cons:
Loyola
pros - small class size, cheaper tuition, lower cots of living, guaranteed interview, lot of nice MD schools in midwest, MSMP taught my profs from Stritch SOM
cons - not a true smp, not many people get into loyola ssom because of it's strong mission for community service (my service hours are average)

Tufts
pros - true smp (if I do well it will look really good, but risky), great opportunities in boston, rigorous curriculum taught my MD faculty
cons - larger class size, higher tuition and cost of living, maybe not enough free time to work on ECs/MCAT?

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[lolcat]

sorry for the same day bump, but would love some input!

 

[lolcat]

accepted into MSMP too! decisions decisions..

read email wrong.. decision next week

 

[zarfot]

I would have done Loyola MAMS over Tufts for the reason of tuition. They have a great reputation for the program and did you see the 90-95% acceptance rate into medical schools? Don't have to have the linkage for Stritch, but they're just as successful of getting their students into the medical school.

Also - the class sizes are smaller -> better letters from professors, they're more invested in you doing well. Dawn Franks seems like she's really rooting for us.

I'm going to Tulane ACP but did consider Loyola for a while and asked around:
"I HIGHLY recommend MAMS, I think it actually helped me a lot in prep for med school. Even more than that, you get a huge support system from the faculty whose whole purpose is to get you into medical school. The students are extremely supportive of one another, almost everyone is currently in medical school from the year that I was there"

 

[lolcat]

Thanks for the reply! Yeah they have a very good acceptance rate. I'm leaning towards that as well. My plan is to take advantage of their guaranteed interview and apply to Loyola during the program year. I'll also study for the MCAT and retake around march/april. So if I don't get into Loyola I'll have my app ready for next cycle and will target FL schools. How does that sound?

Oh I lied, I didn't get into MSMP.. totally read the email wrong. For anyone wondering, they make decisions for MSMP every first and third friday. The director might call on the thursday before to get a little info (sort of a mini interview). I'm also not sure if I should pick MSMP over MAMS. Their classes are taught by MD faculty and I might get some nice connections by taking classes on the Stritch campus.

By the way @zarfot which post-bacc were you doing? I read you were in a program but left it for the ACP.

 

[lolcat]

Bump! Have to respond to Tufts soon.

Would love to hear from @DrMidlife @ZedsDed 🙂

 

[ZedsDed]

I think you're a bit confused about what makes an SMP a "true" SMP. Your only goal should be to get into med school (presumably MD.) The only thing you should care about is whether or not a large portion of grads from each program get into med school. When I was applying to SMPs I was very uncomfortable with Tufts. I understand it is a well known program, but recently they have been very hush hush about what percentage of their grads matriculate into US med schools. I guess the major benefit of Tufts is that you get to do something productive during that 2nd gap year. Presumably you could have time to study for the MCAT during that 2nd year, but somehow I wouldn't count on this. Another mediocre MCAT score is going to be a problem.
On the surface it seems that Loyola also has a strong history and they publish numbers that claim >90% matriculation rate into med schools. The problem is that a large percentage of this includes DO schools and schools outside of the US (yes, that means SGU.) Things have changed a lot since DrMidlife first started posting about SMPs nearly 10 years ago. There really are no guarantees for either of these programs. Sorry to burst your bubble, but I am baffled by how much SMP programs stretch the truth on their acceptance stats.
All I can tell you is that whichever program you do, you are going to have to do well and hope for the best.

 

[lolcat]

I think you're a bit confused about what makes an SMP a "true" SMP. Your only goal should be to get into med school (presumably MD.) The only thing you should care about is whether or not a large portion of grads from each program get into med school. When I was applying to SMPs I was very uncomfortable with Tufts. I understand it is a well known program, but recently they have been very hush hush about what percentage of their grads matriculate into US med schools. I guess the major benefit of Tufts is that you get to do something productive during that 2nd gap year. Presumably you could have time to study for the MCAT during that 2nd year, but somehow I wouldn't count on this. Another mediocre MCAT score is going to be a problem.
On the surface it seems that Loyola also has a strong history and they publish numbers that claim >90% matriculation rate into med schools. The problem is that a large percentage of this includes DO schools and schools outside of the US (yes, that means SGU.) Things have changed a lot since DrMidlife first started posting about SMPs nearly 10 years ago. There really are no guarantees for either of these programs. Sorry to burst your bubble, but I am baffled by how much SMP programs stretch the truth on their acceptance stats.
All I can tell you is that whichever program you do, you are going to have to do well and hope for the best.

I thought an SMP was a program where you take classes along side M1 students or a program very similar to an M1/M2 curriculum. But I understand nothing is guaranteed, just looking for the program that best suits me. I have been leaning towards Loyola's program, specifically the MSMP since I am very strong in physiology and thing I can do well in the program (still waiting to hear back though). Tufts seems to be too costly and risky since I'm competing against the average of Tufts med students.

Maybe I didn't apply to the right programs? After searching through this forum for a month I couldn't find any others that suited me. I should have applied to Toledo's program in hindsight but didn't think the OOS tuition was worth it.

Regardless of where I go I know I'm going to work my butt off for it to be worth it and I'm ready for that. Just trying to see what would put me in the best position to be able to study for the new MCAT and work on my ECs/research. I have a ~3.5 and 29 (30 after retake) but need something to push me over the hump because there are a thousand apps like mine.

 

[ZedsDed]

I thought an SMP was a program where you take classes along side M1 students or a program very similar to an M1/M2 curriculum.

Yes, but M1 classes are not very useful if they don't get you into med school.

I have a ~3.5 and 29 (30 after retake) but need something to push me over the hump because there are a thousand apps like mine.

Agreed. It's unlikely you'll improve on a 3rd MCAT retake (no offense), statistically speaking. Good luck!

 

[ZedsDed]

Tufts seems to be too costly and risky since I'm competing against the average of Tufts med students.

It's definitely risky, but this is why programs like Georgetown are so well regarded. Excellence means something in a program like that, presumably.

 

[lolcat]

Yes, but M1 classes are not very useful if they don't get you into med school.

Agreed. It's unlikely you'll improve on a 3rd MCAT retake (no offense), statistically speaking. Good luck!

True, but if I perform well it certainly will show I am capable of handling med school.

True as well, but being enrolled in a rigorous program might help reinforce some background to do well on the MCAT. Statistically the odds are against me, yes, but I am not the same person I was during undergrad and while studying for the MCAT.

What would you suggest I do in my case?

 

[ZedsDed]

True, but if I perform well it certainly will show I am capable of handling med school.

True as well, but being enrolled in a rigorous program might help reinforce some background to do well on the MCAT. Statistically the odds are against me, yes, but I am not the same person I was during undergrad and while studying for the MCAT.

What would you suggest I do in my case?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there's a better alternative. I'm just advising caution in thinking SMP success=U.S. allopathic acceptance. Perhaps DrMidlife can explain this more eloquently

 

[lolcat]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there's a better alternative. I'm just advising caution in thinking SMP success=U.S. allopathic acceptance. Perhaps DrMidlife can explain this more eloquently

Ah I see, yeah I understand that. I'm just trying to make the next steps in improving my application. Just trying to see which program would be best suited for me given my current stats/situation. I appreciate your input!

 

[DrMidlife]

The only SMP results I get excited about are Temple & Tulane ACP, because in those programs an MD seat is yours to lose. That's what a bunch of SMPs were like in 2008 when I started learning about SMPs. Not any more.

At the other SMPs, there are too many factors in play to predict what will happen to YOU if you are successful. At the other SMPs, after reasonably successful completion of the program, you can still end up at a DO school or Carib school, in which case you wasted that year and ~$50k+. Usually DO/Carib happens just because people are in a big fat unnecessary hurry to start med school and they think the world will end in fire and pain if they aren't immediately starting med school after the SMP. Which is dumb.

Now, the Loyola program I know about is MAMS, which is a terrific and reputable program that gets people into US MD schools sooner or later. Loyola MAMS is hard to get into. I know less about Tufts and still less about the other Loyola program. But in all honesty you're probably fine with any of these. None of them are a Barry/Larkin/Regent type of nonsense.

tl;dr: you don't actually have to move so fast. Pay the due deposits to hold your seats and make a slower and wiser decision that considers the long view.

Best of luck to you.

 

[tttgo]

Here’s my opinion as someone who’s finished an smp and is reapplying this cycle. This list is for smps and not for career-changers and postbaccs.

smps that are basically guaranteed admission at the host’s md med school same cycle:
Temple
Tulane acp

smps that still consistently have >50% success rate into the host md med school same cycle:
Toledo msbs
Rfu bms

smps that have <50% success rate into the host med school same cycle:
everywhere else


If you’re planning to use an smp for an app cycle the year after for other schools, then here are some things to consider.

reputation for other schools: gt is best, but I also think it’s the hardest to get a 4.0 in. The other well-known programs (Tufts mbs, Loyola mams, BU, mams, Cinci) are still pretty successful.

local reputation: e.g. Cinci for ohio schools.

everywhere else: too many programs to name. While not true at every school, Goro (DO adcom) has said that at his/her school, they care about how well you do as opposed to the name of the program. For this category, I would try to choose ones (evms) where you take classes with medical students. Otherwise, how else will the adcoms be able to tell apart what you’ve done from the 50+ other similar sounding programs (including the 3 listed by DrMidlife) and even more terminal masters out there?

 

[lolcat]

The only SMP results I get excited about are Temple & Tulane ACP, because in those programs an MD seat is yours to lose. That's what a bunch of SMPs were like in 2008 when I started learning about SMPs. Not any more.

At the other SMPs, there are too many factors in play to predict what will happen to YOU if you are successful. At the other SMPs, after reasonably successful completion of the program, you can still end up at a DO school or Carib school, in which case you wasted that year and ~$50k+. Usually DO/Carib happens just because people are in a big fat unnecessary hurry to start med school and they think the world will end in fire and pain if they aren't immediately starting med school after the SMP. Which is dumb.

Now, the Loyola program I know about is MAMS, which is a terrific and reputable program that gets people into US MD schools sooner or later. Loyola MAMS is hard to get into. I know less about Tufts and still less about the other Loyola program. But in all honesty you're probably fine with any of these. None of them are a Barry/Larkin/Regent type of nonsense.

tl;dr: you don't actually have to move so fast. Pay the due deposits to hold your seats and make a slower and wiser decision that considers the long view.

Best of luck to you.

I've heard about Tulane and Temple, wish I had the stats to get into those programs.

I understand there are a lot of factors nowadays, especially since these programs are becoming more and more popular. I'm not in a rush or anything. This was actually a last resort for me. I graduated undergrad in 2013 and have been working as an EMT since while volunteering and studying for the MCAT. First cycle I applied in state only. Next cycle I applied all over, got interviews, but same result. General feedback from schools was I was average academically, and there's too many students like me. I feel a solid showing in a program will push me over the top. Actually, an amazing MCAT will do wonders for me, and I'll be focusing on that as well. Just don't want to put all my eggs in one basket.

From what I've heard so far, it seems Loyola is the way to go for me. The MSMP program also got my interest since it's taught on the SSOM Campus and might put me at an advantage for some opportunities. Here's a link for some more info: http://ssom.luc.edu/physio/education/ms/ and an excerpt from their website:

• What is the difference between MSMP and MAMS?
  
  The MSMP program is offered by the Department of Cell and Molecular Physiology at the Loyola University Medical Sciences campus and the MAMS program is offered by the Department of Biology at the Loyola University Chicago undergraduate campus.The MSMP program is taught by medical school professors and the MAMS program is taught by undergraduate professors.The MSMP program curriculum is similar to the course work presented to first year medical students at Stritch School of Medicine. The MSMP program focuses on medical cell and systems physiology as well as introductory courses in human anatomy, neurophysiology, cardiovascular pathophysiology and clinical bioethics. We also offer a Professional Development course to help students with their interview skills and AMCAS statements.

MAMS has a very solid track record as well, and I prefer the variety of courses offered as opposed to the physiology focus of MSMP. The undergrad campus is also in a better area (pictures I've seen of the campus looks amazing!). But I don't think I can go wrong with either program. Tufts just doesn't seem like a fit for me. I've lived in suburban areas my whole life so not sure if I can keep up in Boston and balance that crazy course load.

Here’s my opinion as someone who’s finished an smp and is reapplying this cycle. This list is for smps and not for career-changers and postbaccs.

smps that are basically guaranteed admission at the host’s md med school same cycle:
Temple
Tulane acp

smps that still consistently have >50% success rate into the host md med school same cycle:
Toledo msbs
Rfu bms

smps that have <50% success rate into the host med school same cycle:
everywhere else


If you’re planning to use an smp for an app cycle the year after for other schools, then here are some things to consider.

reputation for other schools: gt is best, but I also think it’s the hardest to get a 4.0 in. The other well-known programs (Tufts mbs, Loyola mams, BU, mams, Cinci) are still pretty successful.

local reputation: e.g. Cinci for ohio schools.

everywhere else: too many programs to name. While not true at every school, Goro (DO adcom) has said that at his/her school, they care about how well you do as opposed to the name of the program. For this category, I would try to choose ones (evms) where you take classes with medical students. Otherwise, how else will the adcoms be able to tell apart what you’ve done from the 50+ other similar sounding programs (including the 3 listed by DrMidlife) and even more terminal masters out there?

Great info here, thanks. Wish I had known this earlier.