TUFTS MD/MBA- How good is it

[guannaberry]

Hello SDNers!

How good is the MD/MBA program at Tufts? From my interview there, I did not learn too much about the MBA program, but I do know that Tufts does the joint degree in 4 years while other schools do 5 or 6.

However, the MBA is earned at Brandeis University, which, I am not sure is great for MBA. Does anyone have any input about this? Should I just get an MD at another school without the MBA?

(Tufts is still one of my top choices out of state, and I am seriously considering going. The only thing stopping me is the tuition)

Thanks for input guys.


Dax

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[sazerac]

The last time I checked, the Tufts MD/MBA is the most expensive degree program in the United States.

You'd better hope it is pretty damn good, for that price.

 

[darkjedi]

An MBA from Tufts is not worth it at all. Don't bother with any MBAs that basically aren't from a top 10 program.

If you are capable of getting into Tufts MD, you stand a decent chance at a Harvard MBA, provided you have good reasons for pursuing an MBA, as well as relevant experiences to make an MBA seem like it would be useful in your career.

 

[nemo123]

From what I have heard, Brandeis' business program/MBA is fairly new (only about 10-15 years old).

 

[guannaberry]

From what I have heard, Brandeis' business program/MBA is fairly new (only about 10-15 years old).

Hello nemo! I seem to be seeing you quite often. That means that it is not good right? Should I just keep the MD instead of the MBA at this point?

 

[guannaberry]

An MBA from Tufts is not worth it at all. Don't bother with any MBAs that basically aren't from a top 10 program.

If you are capable of getting into Tufts MD, you stand a decent chance at a Harvard MBA, provided you have good reasons for pursuing an MBA, as well as relevant experiences to make an MBA seem like it would be useful in your career.

Right, but the problem is I am not sure when I would do the MBA. I do not think I can do the MBA right after medical school because I will be in residency, and I cannot do it during medical school because the MBA at harvard requires work experience. The only option would be to do it after I get out of residency, but then that is taking time off from work. This was my original dilemma too. Any suggestions would be good, thank you.

 

[guannaberry]

The last time I checked, the Tufts MD/MBA is the most expensive degree program in the United States.

You'd better hope it is pretty damn good, for that price.

That, my friend, is one of the biggest problems that is stopping me. Not sure if I can get enough aid/scholarship to make the price feasible.

 

[nemo123]

Hello nemo! I seem to be seeing you quite often. That means that it is not good right? Should I just keep the MD instead of the MBA at this point?

I think @LizzyM has said before that getting an MBA before having any business experience also isn't really worth it.

According to MSAR, the average indebtedness at Tufts is about $200K...

 

[darkjedi]

Right, but the problem is I am not sure when I would do the MBA. I do not think I can do the MBA right after medical school because I will be in residency, and I cannot do it during medical school because the MBA at harvard requires work experience. The only option would be to do it after I get out of residency, but then that is taking time off from work. This was my original dilemma too. Any suggestions would be good, thank you.

If you don't know what you would do with an MBA at this point, then you should consider against it, since it is an enormously expensive degree. The value added to a typical physician's career path is relatively limited unless you are looking into healthcare management/policy type stuff. Post-residency is honestly where you would benefit most from an MBA anyway. The only two values you gain from an MBA is from the prestige of the institution behind the letters of your MBA and the networks/connections you've formed in your time there. It is not until after residency that you would be able to take full advantage of the latter anyway.

 

[guannaberry]

I think @LizzyM has said before that getting an MBA before having any business experience also isn't really worth it.

According to MSAR, the average indebtedness at Tufts is about $200K...

Interesting. So many different opinions from everyone! I know, that is a big issue for me too 🙁

The average as in the average MD student. There are only a few MBA students. Which means my average will be way higher with the MBA tuition.....

 

[guannaberry]

If you don't know what you would do with an MBA at this point, then you should consider against it, since it is an enormously expensive degree. The value added to a typical physician's career path is relatively limited unless you are looking into healthcare management/policy type stuff. Post-residency is honestly where you would benefit most from an MBA anyway. The only two values you gain from an MBA is from the prestige behind the letters of your MBA and the networks/connections you've formed in your time there. It is not until after residency that you would be able to take full advantage of the latter anyway.

I see what you are saying. That means I would have to take time off post residency to go to business school though right? I am not sure I know anyone who has done that so far, but I definitely see your logic.

 

[LizzyM]

I see what you are saying. That means I would have to take time off post residency to go to business school though right? I am not sure I know anyone who has done that so far, but I definitely see your logic.

Just here because I overheard my name... 😉 I've never seen anyone take time off to go to business school after residency but I know a few physicians who have earned MBAs while working as attending physicians. They did the MBA in a part-time, evening program or in an executive program that is done episodically on weekends several times per year with online assignments in-between. Many high ranked schools do offer these programs for professionals:
http://grad-schools.usnews.rankings...hools/top-business-schools/executive-rankings

 

[medschool2016]

LizzyM,

Do you work with a lot of physicians who have a MD and a MBA? I have been working in finance for the last two years and my interviewers always asked of I am interested in the dual degree. My personal take from my limited experience is that you don't need a MBA to work or to be successful in business. Unless the MBA is from a top top tier b school it is even less worth it. However, I am curious if there are any benefits down the line that I haven't been exposed to.

Thanks!

 

[LizzyM]

LizzyM,

Do you work with a lot of physicians who have a MD and a MBA? I have been working in finance for the last two years and my interviewers always asked of I am interested in the dual degree. My personal take from my limited experience is that you don't need a MBA to work or to be successful in business. Unless the MBA is from a top top tier b school it is even less worth it. However, I am curious if there are any benefits down the line that I haven't been exposed to.

Thanks!

I know of a few MD/MBAs.... most got involved in running a large multi-specialty group practice in academic medicine and then sought out the leadership training and business classes that would help them be better physician-managers and to have a credential that gives one credibility in the board room. One just likes to go to school. 😉

 

[Chir0nex]

I think the most important question is if you have a reason for wanting the MBA in the first place. IMO, dual degrees are only worth it if you know that you will use it for something specific. Most of my classmates in the MBA program are interested in hospital administration and/or running a practice group, so they are a choosing to save time by taking on the workload now rather than waiting until after residency. If you have no specific plan on how to use your MBA, then I think you are better off waiting to see if you are still interested later on.

Now, let's say you decide you want to get an MBA for sure. I would still say to select a school based on the medicine program first. After all, that willb e the most important aspect of your career for the next 10 years or so. If your preferred med school does not have an MBA program, but you love it otherwise, get the MBA later. However, if you love Tufts, and know you want an MBA, then do dual degree. You save money and time in the long run, which I think is more relevant than trying for a more prestigious mba program (and again remember, your MD will be your most important degree if you are within the medical field). One last thought to consider, I have heard from MBA students at Tufts and elsewhere, that the actual classes are far less important than connections and networks you make. For that reason the more relevant issue is who exactly is teaching at Brandeis, and how well known are they. I cannot answer that, but it may be worth looking into and seeing if perhaps the Brandeis staff has some big names that could be useful to you in the future (not to mention you have a chance to network with hospital admins from many large hospitals in the area).

 

[darkjedi]

You save money and time in the long run, which I think is more relevant than trying for a more prestigious mba program (and again remember, your MD will be your most important degree if you are within the medical field).

I would actually disagree with this specific statement for the exact reason that you mentioned about how classes are less important than the connections/networks. Even though the MD will be your primary degree, paying an additional 70k for an MBA with questionable value would be inadvisable.

 

[Chir0nex]

I would actually disagree with this specific statement for the exact reason that you mentioned about how classes are less important than the connections/networks. Even though the MD will be your primary degree, paying an additional 70k for an MBA with questionable value would be inadvisable.

My point later on was that it may be worth looking into who exactly is involved in the Brandeis program and thus what kind of connections/networking can be achieved. Honestly, I have no idea how the Brandeis program or faculty are regarded in the business world, and so I can't really judge the ultimate value of the degree so you could very well be right. However, I definitely think there is something to be said for finishing the degree in med school rather than trying to balance it with attending duties and possible family life, etc... There are are a whole host of variables that should be considered beyond simply reputation.

 

[bambam92]

If you're really trying to crush the whole MBA thing you gotta gun for upenn med so you can get in on Wharton biz school man. Other great mba programs are obviously Harvard, and Booth @ U chicago. Wouldn't drop the bills on a tufts/brandeis mba. But the whole 4 year thing is tempting.

 

[CarlosDanger]

I shadowed a guy who is a big shot in his field, and he went back to the Harvard exec. MBA program a decent while after his residency when developing those skills made more sense based on his changing responsibilities. It seemed like one of his proudest accomplishments, he kept pointing to the certificate on the wall, haha. To me, an MBA is not really an academic exercise that you do because you're just curious about how business works, its more of an opportunity to gain a ticket into a club. Wait till you know exactly what club you want to get in to.

 

[guannaberry]

I think the most important question is if you have a reason for wanting the MBA in the first place. IMO, dual degrees are only worth it if you know that you will use it for something specific. Most of my classmates in the MBA program are interested in hospital administration and/or running a practice group, so they are a choosing to save time by taking on the workload now rather than waiting until after residency. If you have no specific plan on how to use your MBA, then I think you are better off waiting to see if you are still interested later on.

Now, let's say you decide you want to get an MBA for sure. I would still say to select a school based on the medicine program first. After all, that willb e the most important aspect of your career for the next 10 years or so. If your preferred med school does not have an MBA program, but you love it otherwise, get the MBA later. However, if you love Tufts, and know you want an MBA, then do dual degree. You save money and time in the long run, which I think is more relevant than trying for a more prestigious mba program (and again remember, your MD will be your most important degree if you are within the medical field). One last thought to consider, I have heard from MBA students at Tufts and elsewhere, that the actual classes are far less important than connections and networks you make. For that reason the more relevant issue is who exactly is teaching at Brandeis, and how well known are they. I cannot answer that, but it may be worth looking into and seeing if perhaps the Brandeis staff has some big names that could be useful to you in the future (not to mention you have a chance to network with hospital admins from many large hospitals in the area).

Chir0nex, I noticed that you currently attend Tufts Med? I mean, during my visit there, I did not really ask too much about the MBA portion because I was being considered for that after I got into the MD. Now that I am accepted into both, I no longer have a chance to contact someone who can reliably tell me how good of a program the Brandeis business joint degree really is.

That being said, I'm sure that as a current Tufts student, you would hold much keener insight from what you have heard from classmates maybe. In your opinion, would you do it if you were me (I want an MBA for hospital administration/leadership later on down the line i.e. after I finish residency and begin practicing) ?

Thanks!

 

[guannaberry]

If you're really trying to crush the whole MBA thing you gotta gun for upenn med so you can get in on Wharton biz school man. Other great mba programs are obviously Harvard, and Booth @ U chicago. Wouldn't drop the bills on a tufts/brandeis mba. But the whole 4 year thing is tempting.

Yes that would definitely be most ideal, but I am not at a position to be considered for any of those unfortunately. I just interviewed for USC and I hope I get into that program, but it offers a 5 year MD/MBA program which has much better network/connections IMO. However, it is 5 years, and I am not guaranteed admission into the MBA portion like I am for Tufts. Is the Business school really that important? I get that networking is critical and some schools have better networks, but will it affect me so profoundly 10 years post residency when I am trying to become hospital administration/faculty?

 

[guannaberry]

I would actually disagree with this specific statement for the exact reason that you mentioned about how classes are less important than the connections/networks. Even though the MD will be your primary degree, paying an additional 70k for an MBA with questionable value would be inadvisable.

Hi Darkjedi,

I agree with what you are saying, and that was really one of my biggest concerns. However, if I do not do the MBA degree now, and I choose to do it later, it would be more than 70k that would be at stake, because I am assuming I would have to take time off of work to acquire the MBA (which then sacrifices my any pay raises, current pay assuming it is not an executive MBA). I want the MBA for more leadership opportunities in the future alongside practice, such as hospital administration, but at this point, that is as specific as I can go into seeing as I am relatively new at this.

I think the main issue I am facing is whether or not I want to spend the extra cash now, and I guess it does boil down to this being a coin flip of sorts. I really do not know how valuable the Tufts/Brandeis MBA would be, and I can't seem to find an answer from a reliable source since the program is somewhat obscure, and no one has really been able to weigh in on how good the program really is for my future career.

 

[guannaberry]

I know of a few MD/MBAs.... most got involved in running a large multi-specialty group practice in academic medicine and then sought out the leadership training and business classes that would help them be better physician-managers and to have a credential that gives one credibility in the board room. One just likes to go to school. 😉

Hi LizzyM,

Based on your knowledge, would you say that an MBA from a program like Brandeis is worth it? I guess what I am asking is, how crucial is it that the MBA degree be obtained from a top business school? Thank you.

 

[seeinghowitgoes]

Hi LizzyM,

Based on your knowledge, would you say that an MBA from a program like Brandeis is worth it? I guess what I am asking is, how crucial is it that the MBA degree be obtained from a top business school? Thank you.

My points on some things to consider:

1) only get an MBA if you see a purpose - aka you want to run a health startup, a hospital, or potentially for a governmental institution doing health policy and budgeting (like at the OMB).

2) In the above case, the credential (not necessarily the added skills, but the appearance of knowledge) could make being hired easier. In that case, being from a top business school is viewed differently and favorably. Peruse websites of people holding the type of jobs you want - do they have a top-flight MBA - if not perhaps it matters less, but generally, as is the case with law school where there are a ton of programs, top tier schools are given more respect outside the regional setting. Otherwise, it really can be a marginal value add. Even for somebody wanting to run a private practice clinic, business classes are nice, but an MBA is overkill, expensive, and much more theoretical/management focused than is necessary.

3a and b)- the biggest strength of an MBA program is the network. Top schools (which I would not place Brandeis in at the moment) offer much stronger networks. however, also think about importance of getting the MBA as close to when you're going to utilize it because networks get stale (you can't keep in touch with everybody). b - Hence, if you're not going to do anything business related (again, work for a startup, act as special assistant to a member of the executive committee at Tuft's hospital) in the short term (aka during med school or immediately following), and if you plan to go into a residency, an MBA now may just give you the credential but the network itself may become stale by the time you actually plan to try to utilize it down the road for actually business-related endeavors (aka after residency). In this way, looking into other options (going back for the degree later, finding a program like Brigham offers where you get an MBA during residency, etc) may be a better option.

4) Your MD is going to be your most "impressive" degree for just about any job you seek, including those that want people with business knowledge (if you wanted to work at a management consulting firm like McKinsey - your MD is far rarer than even a top MBA). Just pointing it out to say think carefully about the value add of that MBA.

5) there are other ways to get business and private sector experience/knowledge if that's your goal. You can work for corporations during summers, part-time for startups during the year (I have several friends that took this route), take individuals classes (again, the MBA curriculum isn't all applicable to medicine unless, so if you want certain skills you can probably just enroll in a free version of the class online anyway - no need to feed the credentialism machine just because), etc.

Anyway, bottom line (as it relates to my thoughts) is an MBA is of questionable value (throwing cost into the equation) for an MD unless goals to apply them to specific sectors are well-defined and signify the added letters will be looked upon especially favorable in those sectors and/or the network will have a purpose in the short-intermediate term. Otherwise, save the money and get the finance/accounting/management skills through cheaper means and go on no worse for the wear.

 

[Law2Doc]

1. An MBA just to have one is silly -- it has to dovetail with a specific career goal. If you cant state one, you dont have one. Having this extra degree without a specific reason won't make you more employable after residency. 2. The MBA will offer the most value if you already have work experience. It is not meant to give you basic business skills but rather, to build on existing skills. This is why the best MBA programs in the country all want 1-2 years of relevant work experience before they consider your application. 3. As Lizzy has pointed out the emergence of "executive MBA" program has made it possible to get n MBA in your "spare" time as an attending, so you can get one part time without taking time off later. This is a more popular approach than actually enrolling as a Full time MBA candidate later. 4. The value of the MBA is partially networking, and networks get stale if you wait through 3-5 years of residency before using them. Better to get the MBA closer to when you need it. 5. Pedigree is everything with MBAs. If it's not a top 15 program you are often better off waiting for the executive MBA program opportunities. There's a huge difference to potential employer between getting an MBA at Harvard/Wharton versus an unproven program like Brandeis, but there is (surprisingly) a lot less CV difference between doing the Full time course at Harvard vs doing an X # of weekends executive MBA at Harvard. (your networking will be more useful at the latter as well).

I think premeds get more excited about the increased marketability of dual degree paths, but in fact unless you have a very explicit goal for the second degree, it doesn't really pan out to your benefit (with the exception of health related PhDs). But just adding an MBA/JD/Mph to your resume because it's there rarely helps you.

 

[Law2Doc]

...
1) only get an MBA if you see a purpose - aka you want to run a health startup....

Not sure you were saying this, but I think a common misconception amongst premeds is that the MBA will give you the basic knowledge and skills to start and run your own business. It won't. The MBA actually is designed with the middle manager in mind. Most business school tuition is paid for by employers, and most people in MBA programs are there in order to take the next step in an existing business. The MBA program doesn't teach you basic business skills, it enhances existing skills. You wont study how to start a Business you will study how to improve operations, management, marketing in your growing conglomerate. For basic start- up skills you are better off reading a "how to" book and hiring a good business lawyer or accountant. Do not go to business school for this.

 

[seeinghowitgoes]

I think a common misconception amongst premeds is that the MBA will give you the basic knowledge and skills to start and run your own business. It won't. The MBA actually is designed with the middle manager in mind. Most business school tuition is paid for by employers, and most people in MBA programs are there in order to take the next step in an existing business. The MBA program doesn't teach you basic business skills, it enhances existing skills. You want study how to start a Business you will study how to improve operations, management, marketing in your growing conglomerate. For basic start- up skills you are better off reading a "how to" book and hiring a good business lawyer or accountant. Do not go to business school for this.

I think this can depend, so I wouldn't argue against what you say about pre-med perceptions (which really could be broadened to perceptions of many non-business folk), but I wouldn't say that there is one set thing an MBA can bring. Some would argue even for management an MBA can be utterly useless, others say it taught them the skills necessary to run an efficient team, etc. Similarly, when asking for funding for some startups questions about the team often arise (I say this from personal experience), and having that MBA can help convince investors the team is going to be able to execute the idea. Credentialism is part of the game in that it acts as a signal for other characteristics, and unfortunetely (and I do actually think it is unfortunate in a lot of cases) sometimes you've got to play the game to win. All that being said, I think the uncertainty about benefit adds up to being cautious about getting an MBA without doing a lot of research about what potential benefits exist and whether they apply to one's career path at all.

As for gaining the basic business skills for practical application, I agree, "how to" books, free online courses, etc are all great options that get overlooked because they don't end with the sexy letters.

 

[Law2Doc]

I think this can depend, so I wouldn't argue against what you say about pre-med perceptions (which really could be broadened to perceptions of many non-business folk), but I wouldn't say that there is one set thing an MBA can bring. Some would argue even for management an MBA can be utterly useless, others say it taught them the skills necessary to run an efficient team, etc. Similarly, when asking for funding for some startups questions about the team often arise (I say this from personal experience), and having that MBA can help convince investors the team is going to be able to execute the idea. Credentialism is part of the game in that it acts as a signal for other characteristics, and unfortunetely (and I do actually think it is unfortunate in a lot of cases) sometimes you've got to play the game to win. All that being said, I think the uncertainty about benefit adds up to being cautious about getting an MBA without doing a lot of research about what potential benefits exist and whether they apply to one's career path at all.

As for gaining the basic business skills for practical application, I agree, "how to" books, free online courses, etc are all great options that get overlooked because they don't end with the sexy letters.

We are more or less on the same page. I'm writing in the context both of having been a business lawyer working closely with MBAs throughout my prior professional career, having worked with many start-ups, on many deals with angel investors and biotech firms, and besides that having some knowledge of the curriculum of several of the top business programs. I concede that the credential can theoretically have some value in the right financing setting (although my personal experience with these cases doesn't really suggest this) but am dubious that most premeds planning on a career in medicine are going to ever find themselves in such a setting. In most cases getting an MBA (or any dual degree really) without an explicit career goal is wasteful and there are now much better ways to accomplish the same goals later.

 

[leagueofDravenMD]

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