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As I have stated, I am vaccinated and believed in the efficacy of the vaccine from the outset. I encouraged and convinced many who were hesitant about the vaccine to get the vaccine. I still think it was the best decision. I am, however, not convinced that the pandemic could have been averted. It is like me thinking that if a 1000 (or a hundred thousand or a million or a hundred million) people simultaneously poured gallon bottles of water into the ocean that the salt concentration of the ocean was going to be appreciably affected or that the sea level would suddenly rise and flood cities.
This was a pandemic and the vaccine was brand new and untested. Hating people who had vaccine hesitancy did nothing to improve healthcare and only served to permanently break a lot of people in health care who developed hate and anger for those who would dare to take an opposing view to theirs. One hundred percent vaccination was never a real possibility and the pandemic was going to do what it did and it was going to impact all of us. There is no reason to hate your fellow humans who happened to not be at the same point of trust at the same time as you for a novel vaccine treatment to combat a global pandemic that you were.
When the pandemic was at it’s worst and the ICU was flooded and like a war zone almost every single patient that needed to be intubated was unvaccinated.

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I feel that the impact of a slightly higher vaccination rate (which is the most we could realistically hope for in such a compressed timeline) would have had only small impacts into the course of the pandemic. I think that you are still going on the premise that 100% vaccination rate was a possibility, which I think we all know that it was not a realistic possibility to even get close to that. In a fantasy land where the virus does not mutate and large roving bands of people are traveling to every neighborhood forcibly injecting the vaccine into unwilling people, in every country in the world, then maybe you might have a point.

The idea that only x% getting vaccinated was possible is just pure speculation on your part, and furthermore the right essentially turned your vaccination pessimism into a self-fulfilling prophecy with their never ending COVID denialism and "own the libs no matter the consequences" attitude toward mandates and vaccination. Right before the first delta surge it was EASY for any person in this country to walk, drive, or take a free Uber to their local cvs and get a free shot that would've given them 85-90%+ protection against hospitalization and death. The vast majority who didn't only took that path due to partisan misinformation and a desire to stick it to those evil authoritarians threatening their freedumbs. Hence the reason you have data about COVID mortality in Ohio and Florida being 153% higher in Republicans vs Dems even after the vaccine came out.

And seriously, let's take the 30,000 ft view for a sec. We got a bunch of conservatives here waxing poetic about compassion and understanding, but yet in this very same thread, just a few pages ago, not a peep from all these compassionate conservatives about Elon's brilliant Prosecute Fauci tweet. So spare us the sanctimonious bs, please.
 
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Covid is conveniently a big deal whenever we want it to be. It’s a nothingburger inside our borders but a big threat at the border. Like much of life, it’s a paradox.




 
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Any thoughts on this data set from the CDC?
I’m mean this basically sums it up:

“There are several factors at play here, including a rising share of the population that is vaccinated, waning immune protection and low uptake of boosters, and changes in immunity among the unvaccinated. New variants combined with a reduction in masking and other non-pharmaceutical interventions may also lead to more transmission, which can in turn lead to more deaths.”

Are you advocating no vaccines? I just want to be clear where your position is on this.
 
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Any thoughts on this data set from the CDC?

I agree with the conclusion:

Conclusion

It would be a misrepresentation of the finding to say it is evidence against vaccination. This finding actually underscores the importance of staying up-to-date on boosters.

According to CDC, people ages 12 and older who have had a bivalent booster shot have a 15 times lower risk of death than an unvaccinated person.

CDC and other researchers have shown boosters are highly effective in preventing hospitalizations and deaths, including among those most vulnerable to COVID-19. CDC now recommends the updated bivalent booster shot for everyone ages 5 year and above.
 
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Another thing you never hear from the “Covid not that bad, live your life, fygm” people is any concern about all the pts with non-covid diagnoses who had their care affected.

April 28, 2021 – Results from a retrospective observational study, presented today at Society for Cardiovascular Angiography and Interventions (SCAI) 2021 Virtual Scientific Sessions, reveal a 70% decline in the number of patients presenting with acute myocardial infarction (AMI) during April 2020 compared to April 2019. While the number of patients with AMI seeking care at hospitals dropped during the pandemic, those that did receive care experienced more severe symptoms because of delays in patients seeking emergency services.​
As a result of system- and patient-level factors related to the COVID-19 pandemic, cancer care has frequently been delayed or altered. For example, recent data showed that half of European breast centers altered systemic treatments during the pandemic and one-fifth of patients experienced delay in radiation therapy
There is no telling how many cardiologists called something demand ischemia instead of dealing with it during COVID and then the person died.
 
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Any thoughts on this data set from the CDC?
Great article worth reading. Thanks for posting.
 
people really attacking musk out there, negative news about him or his companies generate many times the press vs anything positive.
anything that can be spinned negatively will be done so.
its sad journalism these days

dont agree with some things musk says. but i do like how he doesnt try to always be politically correct.
 
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people really attacking musk out there, negative news about him or his companies generate many times the press vs anything positive.
anything that can be spinned negatively will be done so.
its sad journalism these days

dont agree with some things musk says. but i do like how he doesnt try to always be politically correct.


I gotta hand it to Elon. He sets $44 billion on fire buying twitter, proceeds to spend all his time on twitter posting idiotic edgelord memes and maga bait, then starts liquidating a huge number of his shares while TSLA is cratering 70%....but somehow he's convinced some ppl it's the journalists' fault that he and his company's reputation has suffered.

Lol, I mean what
 
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I gotta hand it to Elon. He sets $44 billion on fire buying twitter, proceeds to spend all his time on twitter posting idiotic edgelord memes and maga bait, then starts liquidating a huge number of his shares while TSLA is cratering 70%....but somehow he's convinced some ppl it's the journalists' fault that he and his company's reputation has suffered.

Lol, I mean what
While losing 100 billion dollars. In the grand scheme of things, he is still not suffering but people who are trying to defend his decisions amaze me.


The “smart” CEO’s just “donate” to politicians to support their views.
 
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I gotta hand it to Elon. He sets $44 billion on fire buying twitter, proceeds to spend all his time on twitter posting idiotic edgelord memes and maga bait, then starts liquidating a huge number of his shares while TSLA is cratering 70%....but somehow he's convinced some ppl it's the journalists' fault that he and his company's reputation has suffered.

Lol, I mean what
It's not only the journalists fault but many of modern journalism is trash. Need more independent instead of people writing for clicks and being afraid of cancelled

Nyt is getting a lot of neg press for one of their articles of sam bankman, for being too 'sympathetic' when all they did was interview and quote locals
 
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While losing 100 billion dollars. In the grand scheme of things, he is still not suffering but people who are trying to defend his decisions amaze me.


The “smart” CEO’s just “donate” to politicians to support their views.
Can you be more specific? What specific decisions are you talking about? (And to be clear, I am NOT referring to individual tweets. In my mind, those aren't "decisions".)

I'll defend some of his decisions. I find it amazing people disagree with them. For example, the decision to let reporters come look at the internal working and discussions of the company....fantastic decision. Decision to make sure people are verified and have to pay a fee - fantastic decision (SDN does the same but you don't have to pay). Decision to allow community NOTES (this feature is really amazing) - fantastic decision.

I think he has made some very poor decisions - but I want to know what those are in your mind, and after we identify those, of course I would like to see where people defend the poor decisions.
 
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Can you be more specific? What specific decisions are you talking about? (And to be clear, I am NOT referring to individual tweets. In my mind, those aren't "decisions".)

I'll defend some of his decisions. I find it amazing people disagree with them. For example, the decision to let reporters come look at the internal working and discussions of the company....fantastic decision. Decision to make sure people are verified and have to pay a fee - fantastic decision (SDN does the same but you don't have to pay). Decision to allow community NOTES (this feature is really amazing) - fantastic decision.

I think he has made some very poor decisions - but I want to know what those are in your mind, and after we identify those, of course I would like to see where people defend the poor decisions.
If he let reporters in to look at the internal discussions and workings of Twitter why was he firing people for leaking info he didn't like? Or is it only a fantastic decision when it supports a favorable narrative?
 
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If he let reporters in to look at the internal discussions and workings of Twitter why was he firing people for leaking info he didn't like? Or is it only a fantastic decision when it supports a favorable narrative?
My impression was that he was firing people who were toxic to the ideas he wished to bring to the company. Getting the right people on the bus, as they say in the business world. If you have someone who is actively engaged to go against what your goals are for the company, it is best to part ways. That toxic environment created by the employees working to undermine the new boss is very unlikely to be able to be repaired. Addition by subtraction. That is not an uncommon tactic. I am an outsider to Twitter, but it seemed that Twitter was loaded with employees who were against any ideas that Musk had and seemed very vocal about it. If that happened at Toyota or GM or some other big company, people would see it as reasonable for a new boss to bring in his own people to carry out the new ideas. Even happens in large healthcare systems. If there is a new CEO for a healthcare system, most of the c-suite are at very high risk.
His goal in allowing access to the inner workings of Twitter prior to his purchase seems to be transparency on just how biased the company was and how it was being used by governmental leaders to suppress certain things while actively giving voice to left wing sympathetic outlets.
 
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My impression was that he was firing people who were toxic to the ideas he wished to bring to the company. Getting the right people on the bus, as they say in the business world. If you have someone who is actively engaged to go against what your goals are for the company, it is best to part ways. That toxic environment created by the employees working to undermine the new boss is very unlikely to be able to be repaired. Addition by subtraction. That is not an uncommon tactic. I am an outsider to Twitter, but it seemed that Twitter was loaded with employees who were against any ideas that Musk had and seemed very vocal about it. If that happened at Toyota or GM or some other big company, people would see it as reasonable for a new boss to bring in his own people to carry out the new ideas. Even happens in large healthcare systems. If there is a new CEO for a healthcare system, most of the c-suite are at very high risk.
Yup. He fired near 75% I heard and Twitter is running better. Don't docs loathe useless admin and bureaucrats? Where's the consistency? Twitter has also rolled out new features faster than ever before, again with tons for fluff staff gone.
 
I know Beyoncé fans are collectively known as the beehive… what do we call Musk groupies?
 

Multiple other sources echo the sentiment. Does that strike you as someone who wants to be open and honest about the inner workings of his new company? Or was he only revealing what he wanted to deploy a narrative the right was looking to confirm?
 
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And seriously, let's take the 30,000 ft view for a sec. We got a bunch of conservatives here waxing poetic about compassion and understanding, but yet in this very same thread, just a few pages ago, not a peep from all these compassionate conservatives about Elon's brilliant Prosecute Fauci tweet. So spare us the sanctimonious bs, please.
I think Musk was referring to prosecuting him for lying during a congressional hearing under oath. Is that what you are talking about or was it about something else?
 
CDC now recommends the updated bivalent booster shot for everyone ages 5 year and above.

Meanwhile, in sane western countries where things like covid policy aren't based on own-the-MAGArats vs. own-the-libs and big pharma doesn't have absurd influence...


At the moment, there is no clear evidence to support giving a second booster dose to people below 60 years of age who are not at higher risk of severe disease. Neither is there clear evidence to support giving early second boosters to healthcare workers or those working in long-term care homes unless they are at high risk.


To prevent one COVID-19 hospitalisation over a 6-month period, we estimate that 31 207–42 836 young adults aged 18–29 years must receive a third mRNA vaccine. Booster mandates in young adults are expected to cause a net harm: per COVID-19 hospitalisation prevented, we anticipate at least 18.5 serious adverse events from mRNA vaccines, including 1.5–4.6 booster-associated myopericarditis cases in males (typically requiring hospitalisation).


Children and young people

The recommendation to vaccinate children 17 or under expired on October 31 2022. From November 1, vaccination against covid-19 is recommended only for special groups of children.
 
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UPDATED 20 DEC 2022 17:15

Covid-19 is no longer generally dangerous or dangerous to society​

From 1st April onwards, Covid-19 will no longer be classified as a generally dangerous illness or a danger to society, the Swedish Public Health Agency has stated. However, infection tracing will still take place in in-patient care where there are people at high risk of becoming seriously ill.


God damn it. It must be so nice to live in a non-clown state.
 
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Multiple other sources echo the sentiment. Does that strike you as someone who wants to be open and honest about the inner workings of his new company? Or was he only revealing what he wanted to deploy a narrative the right was looking to confirm?
Okay, let's stay on task here.

"Threatening" something is different from a decision. One can certainly argue that any reasonable person should threaten to sue if employees are breaking a contract (in this case an NDA) but if you are fine with people doing that - good on ya and maybe we could have a discussion about rule of law, personal responsibilities and integrity about being true to one's word. We can even discuss the virtues of Horton the Elephant. Are NDA's meaningless, or if I say I will do something, can I just change my mind because I don't like someone? Maybe we can start a thread on that.

However, like I said - let's stay on task.

@RadOncDoc21 is going to find a decision that Musk made that is a horrible decision, and then precise evidence of people (I think he/she meant on this forum?) defending that idea. This is the task. You are welcome to help in that endeavor.
 
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As noted above, this is the conclusion of the article and data.

Conclusion

It would be a misrepresentation of the finding to say it is evidence against vaccination. This finding actually underscores the importance of staying up-to-date on boosters.

According to CDC, people ages 12 and older who have had a bivalent booster shot have a 15 times lower risk of death than an unvaccinated person.

CDC and other researchers have shown boosters are highly effective in preventing hospitalizations and deaths, including among those most vulnerable to COVID-19. CDC now recommends the updated bivalent booster shot for everyone ages 5 year and above.


I just look at the data and graphs and don't see the same message that they advocate in their conclusion. Based on what I saw and the graph below (from the same article), the conclusion to me seems to be that the elderly and those with other comorbidities that put them at higher risk should all strongly consider vaccination in order to reduce their risk of severe illness from Covid. Look at the tall yellow bar compared to the tall blue bar. The real message should be, don't get old. How they concluded from this data set that all persons 5 years and above should be vaccinated is not clear to me. This seems especially true now that we are more in the endemic phase and the vast majority of people have some degree of natural immunity because they have had Covid at least once. It really seems hard to find someone who has never had the virus at this point (other than one person on this thread)
1672341228356.png
 
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Meanwhile, in sane western countries where things like covid policy aren't based on own-the-MAGArats vs. own-the-libs and big pharma doesn't have absurd influence...


At the moment, there is no clear evidence to support giving a second booster dose to people below 60 years of age who are not at higher risk of severe disease. Neither is there clear evidence to support giving early second boosters to healthcare workers or those working in long-term care homes unless they are at high risk.


To prevent one COVID-19 hospitalisation over a 6-month period, we estimate that 31 207–42 836 young adults aged 18–29 years must receive a third mRNA vaccine. Booster mandates in young adults are expected to cause a net harm: per COVID-19 hospitalisation prevented, we anticipate at least 18.5 serious adverse events from mRNA vaccines, including 1.5–4.6 booster-associated myopericarditis cases in males (typically requiring hospitalisation).


Children and young people

The recommendation to vaccinate children 17 or under expired on October 31 2022. From November 1, vaccination against covid-19 is recommended only for special groups of children.

That you, Ladapo?
 
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As noted above, this is the conclusion of the article and data.

Conclusion

It would be a misrepresentation of the finding to say it is evidence against vaccination. This finding actually underscores the importance of staying up-to-date on boosters.

According to CDC, people ages 12 and older who have had a bivalent booster shot have a 15 times lower risk of death than an unvaccinated person.

CDC and other researchers have shown boosters are highly effective in preventing hospitalizations and deaths, including among those most vulnerable to COVID-19. CDC now recommends the updated bivalent booster shot for everyone ages 5 year and above.


I just look at the data and graphs and don't see the same message that they advocate in their conclusion. Based on what I saw and the graph below (from the same article), the conclusion to me seems to be that the elderly and those with other comorbidities that put them at higher risk should all strongly consider vaccination in order to reduce their risk of severe illness from Covid. Look at the tall yellow bar compared to the tall blue bar. The real message should be, don't get old. How they concluded from this data set that all persons 5 years and above should be vaccinated is not clear to me. This seems especially true now that we are more in the endemic phase and the vast majority of people have some degree of natural immunity because they have had Covid at least once. It really seems hard to find someone who has never had the virus at this point (other than one person on this thread)
View attachment 363986
I agree with your sentiment that they (the CDC) is overstating the data to help big pharma. However, I disagree with your sentiment ("how they concluded is not clear to me.." - it is VERY CLEAR to me why they concluded this. They are not scientists anymore. That is the ONLY reasonable and logical conclusion. They are serving another master, and it isn't randomized trials, or best observational data.
 
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This seems especially true now that we are more in the endemic phase and the vast majority of people have some degree of natural immunity because they have had Covid at least once.

Speaking of natural immunity, I ran across this horse-excrement "study" the other day:


Read through the methods and try not to LOL to death...

Of course it was picked up by everybody immediately because it's "conclusion" was what people wanted. As opposed to the many other studies that are either not allowed to be conducted because they might produce results that bother people politically or are not allowed to see the light of day when they do. Sigh...

Conclusions. The significantly lower rates of all-cause ED visits, hospitalizations, and mortality in the vaccinated highlight the real-world benefits of vaccination. The data raise questions about the wisdom of reliance on natural immunity when safe and effective vaccines are available.

Oh they raise questions, do they??? Just amazing.
 
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Okay, let's stay on task here.

"Threatening" something is different from a decision. One can certainly argue that any reasonable person should threaten to sue if employees are breaking a contract (in this case an NDA) but if you are fine with people doing that - good on ya and maybe we could have a discussion about rule of law, personal responsibilities and integrity about being true to one's word. We can even discuss the virtues of Horton the Elephant. Are NDA's meaningless, or if I say I will do something, can I just change my mind because I don't like someone? Maybe we can start a thread on that.

However, like I said - let's stay on task.

@RadOncDoc21 is going to find a decision that Musk made that is a horrible decision, and then precise evidence of people (I think he/she meant on this forum?) defending that idea. This is the task. You are welcome to help in that endeavor.
Haha nope! I learned a long time ago to know when I’m being asked an unreasonable task or assignment.

Let’s just say the decision to buy twitter and the decision to be outspoken has not been ideal to say the very least. We can choose to agree to disagree on that.
 
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As noted above, this is the conclusion of the article and data.

Conclusion

It would be a misrepresentation of the finding to say it is evidence against vaccination. This finding actually underscores the importance of staying up-to-date on boosters.

According to CDC, people ages 12 and older who have had a bivalent booster shot have a 15 times lower risk of death than an unvaccinated person.

CDC and other researchers have shown boosters are highly effective in preventing hospitalizations and deaths, including among those most vulnerable to COVID-19. CDC now recommends the updated bivalent booster shot for everyone ages 5 year and above.


I just look at the data and graphs and don't see the same message that they advocate in their conclusion. Based on what I saw and the graph below (from the same article), the conclusion to me seems to be that the elderly and those with other comorbidities that put them at higher risk should all strongly consider vaccination in order to reduce their risk of severe illness from Covid. Look at the tall yellow bar compared to the tall blue bar. The real message should be, don't get old. How they concluded from this data set that all persons 5 years and above should be vaccinated is not clear to me. This seems especially true now that we are more in the endemic phase and the vast majority of people have some degree of natural immunity because they have had Covid at least once. It really seems hard to find someone who has never had the virus at this point (other than one person on this thread)
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Yep, masks and vaccines work. Apparently, medications also work to help treat diseases. I did learn some things in med school.
 
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Haha nope! I learned a long time ago to know when I’m being asked an unreasonable task or assignment.

Let’s just say the decision to buy twitter and the decision to be outspoken has not been ideal to say the very least. We can choose to agree to disagree on that.
Fair enough.

You just seemed pretty emphatic that Musk had made some terrible decisions and people on this forum were strongly defending those bad decisions (and the implication was that the bad decisions were bad enough that any reasonable person would agree).

I disagree that him buying twitter was a bad decision. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. Time will tell on that, and it is also a personal decision about preferences. I think it is a horrible decision when someone buys a muscle car. To me, arguing about someone's purchasing with their money as bad decisions seems like a futile argument.

I will totally agree with you that being outspoken can be a huge problem.

Also, you said masks work? Can you be more specific about that? What kind of masks work and for what clinical scenario are you referring to? If you are taking about for an airborne virus like COVID-19 and non-N95 type masks, the two randomized trials done showed they DIDN'T work - so just wanted clarification.
 
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Yep, masks and vaccines work. Apparently, medications also work to help treat diseases. I did learn some things in med school.
When we went to med school we were explicitly taught that surgical masks were useful for preventing droplet contamination of surgical fields only. Proper respiratory precautions required fit-tested N95 respirators. It was literally a point of pride for attendings to point out staff wearing surgical masks (why they were called surgical masks) in situations where respiratory precautions were required and re-educate them that what they were wearing was useless. This is the same thing Fauci said at the beginning of the pandemic -- that there's no point in wearing surgical masks to try and protect yourself as that is what we always knew and had been taught for these kinds of viruses. Then suddenly overnight the "science changed." Even though nothing changed other than the need to appear to be doing something. Come on, dude. We all saw it with our own eyes. Nothing changed.
 
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Oh boy, here we go with masks again. I am just going to post 4 links for everyone to view. Anecdotal evidence from myself, I have always worn masks since 2017 especially around sick coworkers during cold/flu season in preop area where everyone is in close proximity.






 
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UPDATED 20 DEC 2022 17:15

Covid-19 is no longer generally dangerous or dangerous to society​

From 1st April onwards, Covid-19 will no longer be classified as a generally dangerous illness or a danger to society, the Swedish Public Health Agency has stated. However, infection tracing will still take place in in-patient care where there are people at high risk of becoming seriously ill.


God damn it. It must be so nice to live in a non-clown state.
You haven't moved to Florida yet? :)
 
I have always worn masks since 2017 especially around sick coworkers during cold/flu season

Your sick coworkers should not be at work. I would avoid them too. Them being there is not the problem. Not everybody in the hospital not being in masks the entire time. We were not wrong to be "maskless" in the hospital for literally forever. Coming to work sick, which was often encouraged in training and afterwards, was always screwed up, and remains encouraged through idiotic mandatory flu vaccination policies that are meant to lower sick day usage so people come in mildly ill instead of moderately ill.
 
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Your sick coworkers should not be at work. I would avoid them too. Them being there is not the problem. Not everybody in the hospital not being in masks the entire time. We were not wrong to be "maskless" in the hospital for literally forever. Coming to work sick, which was often encouraged in training and afterwards, was always screwed up, and remains encouraged through idiotic mandatory flu vaccination policies that are meant to lower sick day usage so people come in mildly ill instead of moderately ill.

You said masks don’t work. A poster responded with ‘sure they do’ with some evidence. You replied ‘sick people shouldn’t go to work’. I hope you can see the problem here.
 
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Ok so mask don’t work. I’m still going to wear mine and not get sick and will just be superstitious. To all my medical colleagues, we have been lied to all these years!
 
Also - the hospital is full of sick people. It’s perfectly reasonable to wear masks. It may protect you and it may protect them. There’s evidence out there to suggest as much.

Among many things, COVID taught many of us that it isn’t great to breathe and cough all over other people and put our hands on everyone all the time (shaking hands with everyone when you enter a room, which was fairly customary in my area pre-COVID). A lot of people on this forum have reported getting sick significantly less by wearing masks and fist bumping/acknowledging people on room entry as opposed to shaking hands with everyone, and washing our hands more frequently.
 
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I think Elon is just gaslighting everyone and doing whatever makes him happy. Maybe he’s off his meds. Right now he’s a conservative so they’re all like ‘yeah Elon get the libs…it’s your company do whatever you want!’. It wouldn’t shock me one bit if 6 months from now Elon turned around and said ‘COVID vaccines are now mandatory for all employees’ upon which the conservatives will go ‘uhhhh I thought he was on our side…..’.
 
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You said masks don’t work. A poster responded with ‘sure they do’ with some evidence. You replied ‘sick people shouldn’t go to work’. I hope you can see the problem here.

So sick people shouldn't go to work? Nope, I stand by that. You've got a 101 degree fever but you're boosted and masked and the hospital needs staff so you're good to go, right? I know plenty of admin who would be on your side with that.

I could post plenty of data including the Danish and Bangladeshi trials in the covid era and numerous pre-covid studies with influenza both clinical and non-clinical, but I am sure that has been done here before and it would not change the mind of anyone still wearing a mask at this point.

I personally think it's foolish and encouraging overly paranoid behavior can be harmful (excessive handwashing, avoiding people/agorophobic behavior, etc) as it ventures into OCD territory, but I suppose I'm ok if people want to do it indefinitely, but the making everybody else do it/asymptomatic source control thing needs its final death blow and be properly laid to rest with inane removal of universal masking of hospital visitors. Make everyone wear a mask in the ICU or bone marrow transplant ward? I suppose I could see that out of an abundance of caution, maybe. But the rest of the building? GTFO with that.
 
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I think Musk was referring to prosecuting him for lying during a congressional hearing under oath. Is that what you are talking about or was it about something else?

The fact that people think the NIH clearly, directly funded gain of function research and that Fauci knowingly lied under oath about funding it is a delusion so absurd that's it's on a level with Q.

Ultimately, it's a convenient political target where conservatives don't care about the veracity of the claim or any of the nuances or context involved in the story.

 
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The fact that people think the NIH clearly, directly funded gain of function research and that Fauci knowingly lied under oath about funding it is a delusion so absurd that's it's on a level with Q.

Ultimately, it's a convenient political target where conservatives don't care about the veracity of the claim or any of the nuances or context involved in the story.

Hey Vecna, did you see who is head of bioethics at NIH?
 
The fact that people think the NIH clearly, directly funded gain of function research and that Fauci knowingly lied under oath about funding it is a delusion so absurd that's it's on a level with Q.

Ultimately, it's a convenient political target where conservatives don't care about the veracity of the claim or any of the nuances or context involved in the story.

You may want to read the deposition Fauci gave recently.

It may change your mind.

You may decide not to read it because you like the things you believe. That’s okay too.
 
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You may want to read the deposition Fauci gave recently.

It may change your mind.

You may decide not to read it because you like the things you believe. That’s okay too.

“He said at a White House briefing that it pains him to see people refuse the coronavirus vaccine for political reasons.”

“Whether you're a far-right Republican or a far-left Democrat, it doesn't make any difference to me," he said. "I look upon it the same way as I did in the emergency room in the middle New York City when I was taking care of everybody who was coming in off the street."
 
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You may want to read the deposition Fauci gave recently.

It may change your mind.

You may decide not to read it because you like the things you believe. That’s okay too.
It's funny you throw that accusation around considering that 1. Multiple expert virologists are in disagreement with each other regarding whether EcoHealth's work constituted GOF research, and 2. Even if they were engaging in GOF research, EcoHealth didn't disclose to the NIH that some of their research didn't wasn't outlined in their initial grant proposal, ergo Fauci wasn't knowingly lying under oath about anything.

Seriously, take hard look in the mirror before you start pointing fingers about confirmation bias.
 
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It's funny you throw that accusation around considering that 1. Multiple expert virologists are in disagreement with each other regarding whether EcoHealth's work constituted GOF research, and 2. Even if they were engaging in GOF research, EcoHealth didn't disclose to the NIH that some of their research didn't wasn't outlined in their initial grant proposal, ergo Fauci wasn't knowingly lying under oath about anything.

Seriously, take hard look in the mirror before you start pointing fingers about confirmation bias.
If that is true, he cannot claim that there is zero percent chance that COVID came from a lab (which her said multiple times). Both can’t true.

But your point about introspection is a good one. We all should do that more often. Thanks for the reminder.

Also, just to be clear, I wasn’t pointing a finger at you - only suggesting you read the deposition because it might change your mind. And it might not.
 
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If that is true, he cannot claim that there is zero percent chance that COVID came from a lab (which her said multiple times). Both can’t true.

But your point about introspection is a good one. We all should do that more often. Thanks for the reminder.

Also, just to be clear, I wasn’t pointing a finger at you - only suggesting you read the deposition because it might change your mind. And it might not.
He never said there was a "zero percent chance." In fact, he was quite explicit that the chance was non-zero

"​
Fauci: “I have always said that the high likelihood is that this is a natural occurrence. I didn’t dismiss anything, I just said it’s a high likelihood that this is a natural occurrence from the environment of an animal reservoir that we have not yet identified. And I still maintain that.​
“But, as I just mentioned as a response to other questions, that since you don’t know 100% about that — because no one knows, including me, 100% what the origin is — is the reason why we’re in favor of further investigation.”"​
Anthony Fauci, the retiring top official in the United States response to the Covid-19 pandemic, said Sunday he has “a completely open mind” about the origins of the respiratory virus.​
“I have a completely open mind about that, despite people saying that I don’t,” Fauci said, when asked on NBC’s “Meet the Press” about the theory that the virus may have leaked from a lab in China in 2019.
 
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And again, to get back to just how insanely stupid many conservatives are being about the Fauci thing, perjury means *willfully and knowingly* lying under oath. I don't think Fauci was lying at all, but even if he said inaccurate things about COVID or its origins under oath, he did so out of ignorance, not malice. It makes Elon's tweet just that much more cynical and dotarded.
 
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And again, to get back to just how insanely stupid many conservatives are being about the Fauci thing, perjury means *willfully and knowingly* lying under oath. I don't think Fauci was lying at all, but even if he said inaccurate things about COVID or its origins under oath, he did so out of ignorance, not malice. It makes Elon's tweet just that much more cynical and dotarded.
On the topic of lying:


It seems like Trumpism just took facts, truths and anything real and took it all into the metaverse/alternative parallel universe.

How is this ok?
 
He never said there was a "zero percent chance." In fact, he was quite explicit that the chance was non-zero

"​
Fauci: “I have always said that the high likelihood is that this is a natural occurrence. I didn’t dismiss anything, I just said it’s a high likelihood that this is a natural occurrence from the environment of an animal reservoir that we have not yet identified. And I still maintain that.​
“But, as I just mentioned as a response to other questions, that since you don’t know 100% about that — because no one knows, including me, 100% what the origin is — is the reason why we’re in favor of further investigation.”"​
Anthony Fauci, the retiring top official in the United States response to the Covid-19 pandemic, said Sunday he has “a completely open mind” about the origins of the respiratory virus.​
“I have a completely open mind about that, despite people saying that I don’t,” Fauci said, when asked on NBC’s “Meet the Press” about the theory that the virus may have leaked from a lab in China in 2019.
Fauci getting excoriated by Rand multiple times during senate hearings was great entertainment and a real life example of how many of the conversations on these threads would go if they happened in person.
 
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