Two loaded questions

[Giovanotto]

Two questions-one for me, another for a friend.

1) How hard is it for a DO with no geographic preference to become a dermopathologist (derm to path) ?
2) How hard is it for a DO with no specialty preference to obtain residency in CA?

As always, thank you for replying.

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[hallowmann]

Two questions-one for me, another for a friend.

1) How hard is it for a DO with no geographic preference to become a dermopathologist (derm to path) ?
2) How hard is it for a DO with no specialty preference to obtain residency in CA?

As always, thank you for replying.

Not really sure how competitive Dermatopathology fellowships are, but Path is pretty open to DOs. It's one of the few specialties that don't seem to really care if you're a DO. Virtually all programs interview and rank DOs (according to the PD surveys and my personal knowledge of Path PDs).

It is not hard to get any residency in CA provided you pass boards and finish med school. There are always FM programs in CA that don't fill in the match (among both the AOA and ACGME match). That said, good and/or well established programs will be harder to get.

 

[IslandStyle808]

1) Derm residencies are difficult to get in general and your best chance is with a osteopathic residency. Path as mentioned above is not that difficult to enter as a DO, it is saturated with doctors. Now dermopathology fellowships are really competitive, hence a lot of pathologists do this as a fellowship to give them a large boost in the job market. The biggest lesson I have learned from residents is that one should focus on the residency they want first and foremost. If the fellowship doesn't work out, you don't want to be stuck in a field you hate.

2) It gets easier to match in a certain area if you are able to do your schooling in that state or close to that state, since you can network better. Hallowann is totally correct in saying that the more competitive your residency and/or program, the more difficulty will you face in matching at a certain locale.

 

[Seth Joo]

Two questions-one for me, another for a friend.

1) How hard is it for a DO with no geographic preference to become a dermopathologist (derm to path) ?
2) How hard is it for a DO with no specialty preference to obtain residency in CA?

As always, thank you for replying.

The first one is tough, but might be doable, the second one extremely difficult because California is tough for DOs, most people who match as DOs in California usually match in primary care residencies, my school is in AZ, we get a lot of people matching in CA, almost as many as the two California DO schools, and most people match in the usual primary care fields like IM and Family Medicine. I never heard of any DO matching in ACGME Dermatology in CA. I think Western has a Dermatology program there if still exists, might want to look into that.

That being said, you can complete a Dermatology residency in another state and then go to California when you are done there is no law stopping you from practicing in California if you did you residency somewhere else. There are DOs who have accomplished this.

 

[SLC]

To hallow man: There were no allopathic FM residencies that didn't fill in the initial match last year (meaning there were no SOAP positions in FM in Cali).

Deem is tough, therefore Dermatopathology is also tough (because you gotta be a dermatologist first). Pathology is wide open. I have a classmate who's a path resident at UCSF right now if that tells you anything.

 

[Seth Joo]

Not really sure how competitive Dermatopathology fellowships are, but Path is pretty open to DOs. It's one of the few specialties that don't seem to really care if you're a DO. Virtually all programs interview and rank DOs (according to the PD surveys and my personal knowledge of Path PDs).

It is not hard to get any residency in CA provided you pass boards and finish med school. There are always FM programs in CA that don't fill in the match (among both the AOA and ACGME match). That said, good and/or well established programs will be harder to get.

Depends upon the residency, Dermatology in CA would be tough.

 

[hallowmann]

To hallow man: There were no allopathic FM residencies that didn't fill in the initial match last year (meaning there were no SOAP positions in FM in Cali).

Deem is tough, therefore Dermatopathology is also tough (because you gotta be a dermatologist first). Pathology is wide open. I have a classmate who's a path resident at UCSF right now if that tells you anything.

Wow, you are correct, that's the first time that's happened in years (or ever? match data up until 2002 shows that there were always ACGME FM spots in CA that went unmatched in the past). That said, there were IM programs in CA that didn't fill in the NRMP match, so I guess if you applied broadly IM and FM, you probably have a good shot if your only goal was to get any residency in CA. There were also AOA programs that went unmatched in CA.

Depends upon the residency, Dermatology in CA would be tough.

OP asked about getting any residency in any specialty in CA. Obviously competitive specialties will be hard to get in CA, but they didn't ask about competitive specialties in CA, they just asked about any residency.

 

[IslandStyle808]

To hallow man: There were no allopathic FM residencies that didn't fill in the initial match last year (meaning there were no SOAP positions in FM in Cali).

Deem is tough, therefore Dermatopathology is also tough (because you gotta be a dermatologist first). Pathology is wide open. I have a classmate who's a path resident at UCSF right now if that tells you anything.

You don't need to be a dermatologist. There are pathologists who have done dermatopathology as a fellowship.

 

[Giovanotto]

You don't need to be a dermatologist. There are pathologists who have done dermatopathology as a fellowship.

But, can you see patients as a dermatologist that way? I want to be a self-sufficient clinician. I find dermatopathology VERY appealing for that reason. I want to be the one suspecting, biopsying, and diagnosing.

 

[s5260205]

But, can you see patients as a dermatologist that way? I want to be a self-sufficient clinician. I find dermatopathology VERY appealing for that reason. I want to be the one suspecting, biopsying, and diagnosing.

If you were trained as a pathologist in residency, a fellowship in dermatopathology will NOT make you qualified for dermatology practice. The same scenario applies to many interdisciplinary specialty. Just as stated above, it's never wise to be in a specialty in hope of practising in another. Seeing that you haven't started medical schools, specialty should be the least of your concerns for a while.

 

[DO2015CA]

If you were trained as a pathologist in residency, a fellowship in dermatopathology will NOT make you qualified for dermatology practice. The same scenario applies to many interdisciplinary specialty. Just as stated above, it's never wise to be in a specialty in hope of practising in another. Seeing that you haven't started medical schools, specialty should be the least of your concerns for a while.

lol. From what I have heard from the 2nd years. Once you do the derm block you'll realize actually how boring it is and change your mind anyways

 

[SLC]

lol. From what I have heard from the 2nd years. Once you do the derm block you'll realize actually how boring it is and change your mind anyways

And then in 4th year you'll do an elective because you heard how cushy it can be. And you'll realize how awesome it really is. And at that point you'll wish you could do it

 

[IslandStyle808]

But, can you see patients as a dermatologist that way? I want to be a self-sufficient clinician. I find dermatopathology VERY appealing for that reason. I want to be the one suspecting, biopsying, and diagnosing.

I have to agree with s5260205. You can only do the procedures that are taught to you in your fellowship, it doesn't turn you into a dermatologist. As to the way you practice, not sure. I am actually interested in pain medicine, but I believe there are differences between how an anesthesiologist practices with their pain fellowship versus how a physiatrist practices. However, my top priority is to pick the residency I like.

 

[DO2015CA]

I have to agree with s5260205. You can only do the procedures that are taught to you in your fellowship, it doesn't turn you into a dermatologist. As to the way you practice, not sure. I am actually interested in pain medicine, but I believe there are differences between how an anesthesiologist practices with their pain fellowship versus how a physiatrist practices. However, my top priority is to pick the residency I like.

If you want to be a super awesome pain doc. Go psych then pain fellowship... I didn't know that existed either until I shadowed a pain doc

 

[yanks26dmb]

Whats salary like for pain docs out of curiosity..?

 

[IslandStyle808]

If you want to be a super awesome pain doc. Go psych then pain fellowship... I didn't know that existed either until I shadowed a pain doc

It just gets tougher up the ladder since most fellowships are under anesthesiology and the next being PM&R. In terms of who has the best chance to match it's anesthesia > PM&R > neurology > psychiatry. Most of the other specialties have a very low chance in comparison to those four. I would be curious as to see how a psychiatrist with a pain fellowship practices.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Whats salary like for pain docs out of curiosity..?

Not sure about pain only type practice. If you are a PM&R doc, it would be around 300k. If you are an anesthesiologist, I guess 600k. Some one in one of these two residencies would know better than me.

 

[DO2015CA]

The pain doc I shadowed was a PM&R. He said roughly 300k.

2.5 days clinic 2 days procedures

 

[yanks26dmb]

600!? wow..had no idea it was so high. what are gas docs doing that pmr aren't (or can't)?

 

[IslandStyle808]

600!? wow..had no idea it was so high. what are gas docs doing that pmr aren't (or can't)?

The PM&R doctors don't make as much as anesthesiologist in general. They will mix up pain with what they practice currently, hence the difference. So it is like adding another 50-100k to their salary of the specialty they practice.

 

[hallowmann]

Not sure about pain only type practice. If you are a PM&R doc, it would be around 300k. If you are an anesthesiologist, I guess 600k. Some one in one of these two residencies would know better than me.

You're talking high end of the spectrum. Average pay in Anesthesia with pain is likely lower than that. Knowing someone in PM&R pain, I agree with your ~$300k assessment.

 

[Mad Jack]

You're talking high end of the spectrum. Average pay in Anesthesia with pain is likely lower than that. Knowing someone in PM&R pain, I agree with your ~$300k assessment.

This is highly dependent upon the practice. In some anesthesia/PM&R mixed groups, they function identically and share partner status, and thus have similar salaries. Pain in general has taken a huge hit in the last two years though, 400k is about what most new pain fellowship trained people are looking at, whereas in the past 500-700k was possible. It's probably going to fall even father in the future, as the government really doesn't like reimbursing for pain management.

 

[hallowmann]

This is highly dependent upon the practice. In some anesthesia/PM&R mixed groups, they function identically and share partner status, and thus have similar salaries. Pain in general has taken a huge hit in the last two years though, 400k is about what most new pain fellowship trained people are looking at, whereas in the past 500-700k was possible. It's probably going to fall even father in the future, as the government really doesn't like reimbursing for pain management.

Yeah, I agree with that. Realistically it's not PM&R vs. Gas that makes the big difference in your salary as much as its how much you're willing to work and what type of work you're willing to do. Most pain docs I know are fine in the $300-$350k range working 4.5 days a week. I wouldn't be surprised if you could net $1 million/yr as a pain doc, but were working 6 days a week doing 20-30 procedures a day.

 

[Mad Jack]

Yeah, I agree with that. Realistically it's not PM&R vs. Gas that makes the big difference in your salary as much as its how much you're willing to work and what type of work you're willing to do. Most pain docs I know are fine in the $300-$350k range working 4.5 days a week. I wouldn't be surprised if you could net $1 million/yr as a pain doc, but were working 6 days a week doing 20-30 procedures a day.

You'd be doing so much fluoro at that salary that you'd either have cancer our superpowers within a year

 

[DO2015CA]

You'd be doing so much fluoro at that salary that you'd either have cancer our superpowers within a year

one of my naive concerns with pain. It was interesting and I could see my self doing it but so much exposure

 

[Giovanotto]

one of my naive concerns with pain. It was interesting and I could see my self doing it but so much exposure

Can you elaborate? I know knowing about this.