Two new optometry schools anounced. What oversupply!

[Jason K]

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I particularly think we need a significant increase of minimum patient encounters. This is necessary to increase competence. One of the reasons I would support mandatory post-doc residencies. We can't have every Tom, Dick, and Harry private Osteopathic medical school opening up a fly by night OD school.

I totally agree here. I went to a school in which provided what is considered to be a higher patient volume. I rarely saw more than 4 patients in a 4 hour clinic session. My externships provided more volume, but that's only a portion of the 4th year. One of the main criticisms I hear from ophthalmology over and over is how their residents get thousands more patient encounters than we do in our training, leading to much higher competency. It's hard to argue with that logic. It's also hard to understand why an OD costs just as much as an MD, yet provides far less in the way of patient encounters. Why is that? I have a number of friends who went through MD/DO tracks when I was in OD school. Their numbers crushed mine and would certainly dwarf any optometry student's patient counts. Competency is developed through repetition - plain and simple. I don't know about mandatory post-doc training, but it's an interesting idea.

 

[Nick1693]

Is the Massachusetss school taking applications for 2012? I will be applying for 2012, so how should I for this school? It's not on optomcas yet.

I'm applying to MCPHS Boston for the PharmD program, and I couldn't find any mention of an OD application.

You should try emailing [email protected] in case I just didn't notice it.

 

[HPDV6000]

As someone who has recently become interested in optometry, this was a hard and saddening read indeed...

Would it still be a good idea to pursue this at all? I wouldn't mind moving and practicing with areas that have shortages.

Also, I have a question, to run a successful practice (private), how many patients must you see on a average day?

 

[Judgment Dragon]

Is the fact that two new optometry schools are opening a good thing for the optometry profession or a bad thing?

 

[Commando303]

Is the fact that two new optometry schools are opening a good thing for the optometry profession or a bad thing?

Scroll up.

 

[Jonbrout]

Is the fact that two new optometry schools are opening a good thing for the optometry profession or a bad thing?

You're prepharm? Hell, why not open 10 more pharm schools? You should consider oversupply and the overall effect it has on the future of the profession--any profession--your profession. It doesn't paint a pretty picture, and I haven't recently read anything combating the situation.

(es no bueno)

 

[Jason K]

Is the fact that two new optometry schools are opening a good thing for the optometry profession or a bad thing?

Others will argue against my stand, but I believe that the oversupply of ODs is directly and indirectly leading to many of the profession's biggest problems.

Too many ODs => mounting glut of optometrists, particularly new ones with little or no experience
Glut of ODs => new grads having nowhere to go, but commercial (usually PT) after graduation
Too many ODs => commercial optometry growing out of control, much faster than private practice optometry (PP)
Commercial growth => vision plans lowering their reimbursements to match the ridiculously low prices offered at your friendly neighborhood Walmart.
Commercial growth => added strain on PP, making it difficult for PP to offer a substantial base for new grads.
Too many ODs => drastic decline in the number of FT associate positions available to new grads. PT "strings" are now how many new grads make money to pay their bills.

Reslult => in another 15 years or so, we'll be pharmacy. There will be some surviving long-standing private practices, but the vast majority of the profession will be commercialized, just like pharmacy. Just like pharmacy, there will be a few ODs working in hospitals, a few in industry, a few in their own private setting, but when the public thinks "optometry," they'll think of Walmart, Sam's, LensCrafters,Costco,Walgreens, (yes, Walgreens is adding ODs). The reason that I feel this is almost inevitable is because of where new grads are going today, they're going into commercial jobs, growing the commercial side of the profession while the private practice side remains stagnant. Don't believe me? Ask yourself what percentage of new grads started their own practice soon after graduation 20 years ago. Then ask yourself what percentage of new grads starts their own practice today. Private practice is not getting "new blood." It's all going to commercial. At some point, the private offices will die off and the commercial side will have taken over. Sad, but inevitable in my opinion.

How has our mighty AOA addressed the problem? By bickering over the completely idiotic board certification debate and other topics which few practicing ODs actually care about. The AOA is not legally permitted to directly stand in the way of new schools opening, but they could very well use their political influence and public image to inform people of the issue and sway the tide, making the market for new private OD programs undesirable to investors seeking to make a buck off of naive prospective ODs. They will never do that, however, because they are short sighted....more new OD grads = more revenue. What they are not accounting for is the number of ODs who are getting fed up with their virtual absence from the debates that really are affecting our profession right now. I hear, a lot more than I used to, that many ODs are choosing not to join the AOA, and they’re a lot more comfortable talking about it now than they used to. To assume that because there are more ODs, that there will be more AOA members is incredibly ignorant. Optometrists are a pretty savvy bunch, if we aren't getting what we paid for, we're not going to keep paying.

 

[speyeder]

I totally agree here. I went to a school in which provided what is considered to be a higher patient volume. I rarely saw more than 4 patients in a 4 hour clinic session. My externships provided more volume, but that's only a portion of the 4th year. One of the main criticisms I hear from ophthalmology over and over is how their residents get thousands more patient encounters than we do in our training, leading to much higher competency. It's hard to argue with that logic. It's also hard to understand why an OD costs just as much as an MD, yet provides far less in the way of patient encounters. Why is that? I have a number of friends who went through MD/DO tracks when I was in OD school. Their numbers crushed mine and would certainly dwarf any optometry student's patient counts. Competency is developed through repetition - plain and simple. I don't know about mandatory post-doc training, but it's an interesting idea.

I'm pretty surprised by the relatively low patient volumes in optometry school. Is this because schools are accepting too many students? As an ophthalmology resident, I'd say that over the course of 3 years, I saw between 13,000 to 15,000 patients (average of about 20 patients per day) and this does not include the patients I saw on-call every 3rd night for 3 years.

 

[KHE]

Is the fact that two new optometry schools are opening a good thing for the optometry profession or a bad thing?

Bad.

 

[Jason K]

I'm pretty surprised by the relatively low patient volumes in optometry school. Is this because schools are accepting too many students? As an ophthalmology resident, I'd say that over the course of 3 years, I saw between 13,000 to 15,000 patients (average of about 20 patients per day) and this does not include the patients I saw on-call every 3rd night for 3 years.

There isn't an OD program on the planet that could even come close to those numbers. If you're a 3rd year OD candidate clinician and you see 3-4 patients in a 4 hour clinic session, you've had a crazy day. Fourth year clinicians will sometimes see a full schedule of 16+ patients in an 8 hr shift, but only at external sites (VA rotations, for example). School sites cannot book enough patients to load every intern's schedule. Even if they could, time constraints wouldn't allow it. I would say the norm for 4th years is probably in the vicinity of 6-8/day if the average is considered across most programs. I'm a big believer in repetition being the foundation of clinical skill development so I think this is one weakness of many OD programs. I am, in no way, taking away from the skill set of ODs coming out of school these days. We're primary care docs and as new grads, I believe we're well-trained to handle primary eye care issues. I just think optometry would benefit greatly from increased patient numbers for interns/externs while in training. If an OD does a "residency" in a hospital setting, real repetition and substantial volume can be found. I saw 20+ pts per day, 5-6 days per week in mine with 3-4 pts per week on call and it was a fairly typical program. I've only heard of heard of those numbers in post-grad training, not in OD training. I really believe that if ODs want to expand our scope so badly, then we need to put the training behind it to back it up. I don't think we're doing that right now. As I said before, I don't know about mandatory residencies for ODs, but I strongly agree with IndianaOD regarding the need for increased repetition.

 

[Judgment Dragon]

Oh I see. I was under the impression that since there are only 20 + 2 new optometry schools, there would be a shortage of optometrists.

In terms of degrees of saturation, what would be the ranking of most saturated to least saturated?

Would it be law > pharmacy > optometry > nursing > osteopathic medicine > allopathic medicine > veterinary medicine?

 

[KHE]

Oh I see. I was under the impression that since there are only 20 + 2 new optometry schools, there would be a shortage of optometrists.

In terms of degrees of saturation, what would be the ranking of most saturated to least saturated?

Would it be law > pharmacy > optometry > nursing > osteopathic medicine > allopathic medicine > veterinary medicine?

Who knows? Who cares? It's all different in all different parts of the country. Fact is optometry is saturated just about everywhere. It's super saturated in some places. That's all we'll be able to tell you here on the optometry forums.

 

[speyeder]

There isn't an OD program on the planet that could even come close to those numbers. If you're a 3rd year OD candidate clinician and you see 3-4 patients in a 4 hour clinic session, you've had a crazy day. Fourth year clinicians will sometimes see a full schedule of 16+ patients in an 8 hr shift, but only at external sites (VA rotations, for example). School sites cannot book enough patients to load every intern's schedule. Even if they could, time constraints wouldn't allow it. I would say the norm for 4th years is probably in the vicinity of 6-8/day if the average is considered across most programs. I'm a big believer in repetition being the foundation of clinical skill development so I think this is one weakness of many OD programs. I am, in no way, taking away from the skill set of ODs coming out of school these days. We're primary care docs and as new grads, I believe we're well-trained to handle primary eye care issues. I just think optometry would benefit greatly from increased patient numbers for interns/externs while in training. If an OD does a "residency" in a hospital setting, real repetition and substantial volume can be found. I saw 20+ pts per day, 5-6 days per week in mine with 3-4 pts per week on call and it was a fairly typical program. I've only heard of heard of those numbers in post-grad training, not in OD training. I really believe that if ODs want to expand our scope so badly, then we need to put the training behind it to back it up. I don't think we're doing that right now. As I said before, I don't know about mandatory residencies for ODs, but I strongly agree with IndianaOD regarding the need for increased repetition.

I guess what you're saying makes sense. In my program we had 3 new residents per year. The average ophthalmology program class size is 4 residents per year. If we had 50 new residents per year, our clinical experience would be watered down too.

 

[imemily]

Oh I see. I was under the impression that since there are only 20 + 2 new optometry schools, there would be a shortage of optometrists.

In terms of degrees of saturation, what would be the ranking of most saturated to least saturated?

Would it be law > pharmacy > optometry > nursing > osteopathic medicine > allopathic medicine > veterinary medicine?

I would be inclined to agree with your ranking, though, we should really take into account the demand of services provided by each profession.

Regardless of saturation, all the above professions besides veterinary and MAYBE optometry will be in demand.

People NEED lawyers to resolve their issues. They also need their medication, dispensed by the pharmacist, which at first, must be recommended by a physician. Nurses are pretty much needed too.

However, is an eye exam NEEDED every 1-2 years? I know I'm not going to be fined $100, or become medically ill, just because I missed a yearly eye exam!

 

[Judgment Dragon]

What is the relationship between supply, demand, and saturation? I was under the impression that high ratio of supplyemand = saturation. Is is possible for a profession to be in demand and still be saturated?

 

[Farcus]

Pharmacy is saturated in most areas esp big cities, but in the middle of the USA there are ample opportunity but not many people wants to go there.

 

[Judgment Dragon]

Are courses in optometry school graded as a letter grade or Pass / No Pass?

 

[optojourno]

Hello -

I am a journalist for a medical publication, and am writing an article on the topic of new optometry schools. I've noticed that there are some very strong opinions on this forum regarding this topic, and would love to get some of your opinions on the record, if possible. Because my publication is tailored to practicing optometrists, my preference would be to speak to ODs rather than students, but a few comments by students might be OK.

Please contact me at [email protected] if you would be willing to discuss this (on the record, using your real name).

Thanks!