UCincinnati vs Case

[annerice]

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Hi there. I'm done with all my interviews and I'm having a hard time deciding whether to rank UCincinnati or casewestern #1. Any inputs? I'm intetrested in storke but also in epilepsy and movement disorders. Also, any inputs regarding the lifestyle in cincinnati vs cleveland? Thanks guys! 🙂

 

[PhakeDoc]

Congrats on being done interviewing. I know many would be envious of that! 😀

Anyhow, can't help you on your particular question, but would you please be kind enough to comment on the "interview impressions" thread so those that come after you can glean some info? Thanks much and best of luck deciding who to rank where.

 

[mnbv4184]

I have lived in both cleveland and cincinnati, and cleveland definitely has more to offer as a city and it is close to several other cities (i.e. Columbus, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Toledo) not to mention it is close to Cedar Point which is way better than King's Island.

With that said Case and UC both use about the same curriculum, but Case has University Hospitals which are amazing and you are close to world renowned Cleveland Clinic.

Case really offers the best possible place to make connections for your residency.

 

[HarveyCushing]

I have lived in both cleveland and cincinnati, and cleveland definitely has more to offer as a city and it is close to several other cities (i.e. Columbus, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Toledo) not to mention it is close to Cedar Point which is way better than King's Island.

With that said Case and UC both use about the same curriculum, but Case has University Hospitals which are amazing and you are close to world renowned Cleveland Clinic.

Case really offers the best possible place to make connections for your residency.

I will add that Case wins this debate on website design alone. The UCincinnati website is a relic.

 

[bonran]

My impression at this point is
U Cincinnati= CASE>> Cleveland Clinic

Breakdown:

In stroke U Cincinnati> Case> CCF
In epilepsy CASE>> CCF>U Cincinnati
In neuromuscular CASE>> U Cin= CCF
In NSU-ICU U Cin= CASE>CCF
In neuroophthalmology CASE>> U Cin & CCF
In MS CCF>> U Cin & CASE
In Headache CCF>> CASE> U Cin

 

[HarveyCushing]

My impression at this point is
U Cincinnati= CASE>> Cleveland Clinic

Breakdown:

In stroke U Cincinnati> Case> CCF
In epilepsy CASE>> CCF>U Cincinnati
In neuromuscular CASE>> U Cin= CCF
In NSU-ICU U Cin= CASE>CCF
In neuroophthalmology CASE>> U Cin & CCF
In MS CCF>> U Cin & CASE
In Headache CCF>> CASE> U Cin

How did you get to the point of UCincinnati= Case when you have:

1) Cincinnati being better than Case in 1 area (stroke)
2) The two being equal in 2 areas (NSU-ICU, MS)
3) Case being better than Cincinnati in 4 areas (epilepsy, neuromuscular, neuro-ophthalmology, headache).

Are you weighting your scoring system based on stroke? Are you including other variables not mentioned in your post? Other wise I don't see how the two could be equal based on your system. It seems like based on your ranking of the different sub-specialties it should go something like: Case>> CCF >/= UCincinnati?

 

[bonran]

Harvey boy,

Why dont you take my word for it? It will take a 1 page answer to tell you why CASE & Cin are almost the same to train in as a resident. Fellowships are a different issue. CCF is pretty much an institute in name only in Neurology, what with most of the faculty now at CASE which has been a big gain for this program. CASE added to an existing distinguished faculty & is now a great place to train in, specially with the newly designed curriculum under their new PD which is more structured & gives a lot of time to residents for self study.

CASE has been an underrated program as it in an underexposed place like Cleveland with a big name institute (not necessarily in Neurology) like CCF in the neighbourhood. Most residents need to just read the names on the texts they are reading to realize that a large number of faculty in all 3 subspecialties at CASE are writing these texts which at read at a national level. The program makes a big effort that its residents get ample exposure to all the major sub-specialties & are not cubby-holed into 1 specialty during residency. Residents have to take courses & pass monthly tests to prove that they have some basic understanding of the major subspecialties. They are not Stroke-residents or ICU-residents or Epilepsy-residents. They are Neurology-residents & come out trained in all aspects of it.
Any further explanations would require naming names, which from prior experiences here, is not appreciated.

The truth is bitter anyways & most people on this site are not mature enough to get a taste of it. There will be a lot of ranting & raving if anything is said here, so I will save you that grief.

 

[PhakeDoc]

I think Harvey was actually not questioning your judgment, but asking if you made an omission in the way you explained your rankings in your previous post - it seemed an honest question (even I was wondering the same thing he was). I don't think he was trying to be anti-Case in any manner or doubt what you were trying to say. One of my senior faculty trained at Case and has wonderful things to say about it.

I do hope you continue to provide your input to this forum - there aren't that many residents (or attendings or fellows) that do, so anything and everything helps those that are motivated enough to be future neurologists.

 

[HarveyCushing]

Harvey boy,

Why dont you take my word for it? It will take a 1 page answer to tell you why CASE & Cin are almost the same to train in as a resident. Fellowships are a different issue. CCF is pretty much an institute in name only in Neurology, what with most of the faculty now at CASE which has been a big gain for this program. CASE added to an existing distinguished faculty & is now a great place to train in, specially with the newly designed curriculum under their new PD which is more structured & gives a lot of time to residents for self study.

CASE has been an underrated program as it in an underexposed place like Cleveland with a big name institute (not necessarily in Neurology) like CCF in the neighbourhood. Most residents need to just read the names on the texts they are reading to realize that a large number of faculty in all 3 subspecialties at CASE are writing these texts which at read at a national level. The program makes a big effort that its residents get ample exposure to all the major sub-specialties & are not cubby-holed into 1 specialty during residency. Residents have to take courses & pass monthly tests to prove that they have some basic understanding of the major subspecialties. They are not Stroke-residents or ICU-residents or Epilepsy-residents. They are Neurology-residents & come out trained in all aspects of it.
Any further explanations would require naming names, which from prior experiences here, is not appreciated.

The truth is bitter anyways & most people on this site are not mature enough to get a taste of it. There will be a lot of ranting & raving if anything is said here, so I will save you that grief.

bonran, I think you might have mistaken my post. I was not attacking your opinion or judgment at all. I personally think very highly of Case and have heard good things about the program. I was just interested in how you came to your end rank as these are a few programs I might be interested in applying to when I get to that point?

When I looked at your sub-specialty rankings, it seems like CCF and UCincinnati come out pretty equal in regards to the rank, and that Case blows them away. However in the end you put Cincinnati= Case. I was curious if you had used other criteria that you didn't mention in your analysis like: facilities, faculty, call schedule, resident resources, curriculum...etc. Or maybe you weighted your final "score" on certain areas more than others and didn't mention that? I am just asking this because I am really curious and don't mean to attack you. From just a look at your rankings of the sub-specialties I thought it might come out to be Case>> CCF >/= UCincinnati in the end like I mentioned. I just assigned 2 points for coming in first, 1 point for coming in second, and 0 points for coming in third on your rankings and that is how I came to Case>> CCF >/= UCincinnati. But that obviously does not take into account the intangibles that you might not have mentioned.

 

[bonran]

Great program. Good in all major specialties:

Stroke: Tony Furlan (Chair), Cathy Sila
EMG: Bashar Katirji, David Preston (PD)
EEG: Hans Luders
Neuro ICU: Michael Degeorgia
Neuroophth: John R. Leigh
Movement: David Riley

Some texts by CASE faculty:
Neurology in Clinical Practice- Bradley & Daroff (ex-Chairman)
Neurology of eye movements- Zee & Leigh
Comprehensive Clinical Electrophysiology- Levine & Luders
EMG & Neuromuscular Disorders- Preston & Shapiro
Neuromuscular Medicine- Katirji, Preston, Shapiro & Kaminski (now Chairman at SLU)
Myasthenia Gravis- Kaminski (ex-VA Chief)
Furlan & Sila have contributed many book chapters including in Braunwald's Cardiology.
Riley has contributed the Movement Disorders chapter in Goetz textbook of Clinical Neurology.

Many of these texts are given to the residents free of cost during residency.

CASE has given 12 Chairmen & many PDs to various programs around the country since 1960s, the largest number by any program. At present, the chairmen at SLU & Louiseville are from here.

PGY-2 yr: New residents covered by a senior for the 1st 3 months when on call. All admissions or consults are supervised during this time. In-house backup all year round till 10pm on call days with night float taking all admissions after 10 pm. Q 4 call schedule.

PGY-3 yr: Q5-6 call with 2 months of dedicated EEG, EMG, Basic neuroscience courses. Thrice weekly neuroradiology teaching.

PGY-4 yr: Q7-10 call. TCD course.

2 months of NICU exposure. 1 month psych, 2 months peds neuro, 4-5 months elective.

3 teams- Gen. neuro & consults (1 PGY-4 senior, 1 PGY-3 asst. senior, 2 PGY-2s, IM & Psych rotators & 2-3 students); Stroke & stroke consults (1 PGY-4 senior, 1 PGY-3 asst. senior, 2 PGY-2s & 2-3 med students); NSU (1-2 Fellows, 2 PGY-2s w-w/o NSx rotators).
There are also the VA team (1 PGY-4 with 2 PGY-2s w-w/o 2-4 med. students) & the Epilepsy team (1-2 PGY 3/4 with 1 Fellow) cover EMU & Epilepsy consults.

Facilities include: 14 bed NSU, 10 bed neuro step down unit, 8 bed adult EMU & 6 bed Peds EMU.

Assistant senior (PGY-3) on Gen neuro & stroke teams to get the post-call person out next day to comply with ACGME hrs. Case can afford enough residents as they are the largest program in Neurology in the US along with Partners/MGH-10 residents per yr with an extra Peds neuro resident in the PGY-2 yr to share call.

Internationally & nationally renouned faculty with 95% of them down to earth, non-malignant & very approachable.

Opportunity for clinical & basic sceince research as a resident.

Fellowships in
EEG- 4-5/yr + 2 Research Fellows.
EMG- 2/yr
Vascular- 2/yr
NICU- 2/yr
Endovascular- 1 every 2yrs
Neuroophth- 1/yr
Behavioural- 1/yr
Trying to start a Movement Disorders fellowship.

All residents have got into a fellowship for the last 3 years, either in-house or into better fellowship programs.

There are weekly VA clinics & biweekly resident's clinics alternating with sub-specialty clinics which a resident does with assigned faculty for 1-yr.

Weekly teaching includes:
Stroke conference, Journal club, Neuroradiology conference, Neuroophthalmology conference (once a month), Core Competency lectures, Grand Rounds & Chairman rounds (both at the VA & main site).

These are besides the courses one has to go through in the PGY-3 year: 2 months EMG-exam at the end of each month, 2 months EEG-exam at the end of each month, 8 weeks of Basic Neurosciences & 1 week TCD course in the PGY-4 year (optional).


This a pretty accurate outline of what CASE training is all about from a previous post by another member. It may change a little from year to year but thats how it looks. I have updated it a little.

 

[HarveyCushing]

Great program. Good in all major specialties:

Stroke: Tony Furlan (Chair), Cathy Sila
EMG: Bashar Katirji, David Preston (PD)
EEG: Hans Luders
Neuro ICU: Michael Degeorgia
Neuroophth: John R. Leigh
Movement: David Riley

Some texts by CASE faculty:
Neurology in Clinical Practice- Bradley & Daroff (ex-Chairman)
Neurology of eye movements- Zee & Leigh
Comprehensive Clinical Electrophysiology- Levine & Luders
EMG & Neuromuscular Disorders- Preston & Shapiro
Neuromuscular Medicine- Katirji, Preston, Shapiro & Kaminski (now Chairman at SLU)
Myasthenia Gravis- Kaminski (ex-VA Chief)
Furlan & Sila have contributed many book chapters including in Braunwald's Cardiology.
Riley has contributed the Movement Disorders chapter in Goetz textbook of Clinical Neurology.

Many of these texts are given to the residents free of cost during residency.

CASE has given about 36 Chairmen & PDs to various programs around the country since 1970s.

PGY-2 yr: New residents covered by a senior for the 1st 3 months when on call. All admissions or consults are supervised during this time. In-house backup all year round till 10pm on call days with night float taking all admissions after 10 pm. Q 4 call schedule.

PGY-3 yr: Q5-6 call with 2 months of dedicated EEG, EMG, Basic neuroscience courses. Thrice weekly neuroradiology teaching.

PGY-4 yr: Q7-10 call. TCD course.

2 months of NICU exposure. 1 month psych, 2 months peds neuro, 4-5 months elective.

3 teams- Gen. neuro & consults (1 PGY-4 senior, 1 PGY-3 asst. senior, 2 PGY-2s, IM & Psych rotators & 2-3 students); Stroke & stroke consults (1 PGY-4 senior, 1 PGY-3 asst. senior, 2 PGY-2s & 2-3 med students); NSU (1-2 Fellows, 2 PGY-2s w-w/o NSx rotators).
There are also the VA team (1 PGY-4 with 2 PGY-2s w-w/o 2-4 med. students) & the Epilepsy team (1-2 PGY 3/4 with 1 Fellow) cover EMU & Epilepsy consults.

Facilities include: 14 bed NSU, 10 bed neuro step down unit, 8 bed adult EMU & 6 bed Peds EMU.

Assistant senior (PGY-3) on Gen neuro & stroke teams to get the post-call person out next day to comply with ACGME hrs. Case can afford enough residents as they are the largest program in Neurology in the US along with Partners/MGH-10 residents per yr with an extra Peds neuro resident in the PGY-2 yr to share call.

Internationally & nationally renouned faculty with 95% of them down to earth, non-malignant & very approachable.

Opportunity for clinical & basic sceince research as a resident.

Fellowships in
EEG- 4-5/yr + 2 Research Fellows.
EMG- 2/yr
Vascular- 2/yr
NICU- 2/yr
Endovascular- 1 every 2yrs
Neuroophth- 1/yr
Behavioural- 1/yr
Trying to start a Movement Disorders fellowship.

All residents have got into a fellowship for the last 3 years, either in-house or into better fellowship programs.

There are weekly VA clinics & biweekly resident's clinics alternating with sub-specialty clinics which a resident does with assigned faculty for 1-yr.

Weekly teaching includes:
Stroke conference, Journal club, Neuroradiology conference, Neuroophthalmology conference (once a month), Core Competency lectures, Grand Rounds & Chairman rounds (both at the VA & main site).

These are besides the courses one has to go through in the PGY-3 year: 2 months EMG-exam at the end of each month, 2 months EEG-exam at the end of each month, 8 weeks of Basic Neurosciences & 1 week TCD course in the PGY-4 year (optional).


This a pretty accurate outline of what CASE training is all about from a previous post by another member. It may change a little from year to year but thats how it looks. I have updated it a little.

Bonran thank you for your post, that was very informative.

 

[PhakeDoc]

Thanks for that succinct summary of the Case program, Bonran!

Word on the street is that John Leigh is getting ready to retire. Anyone have any confirmation of this?