UCLA (Geffen) vs Columbia (no award yet) vs WashU (full tuition)

[Perkinjeboy]

UCLA
Pros

• Geffen award!!
• Weather + beach
• Feel more comfortable on the west coast (laid back etc) and hear good things about personalities of med students, attendings, residents etc.
• Closer (but not that close) to fam and SO.
• Would ideally like to match in a competitive surgical subspecialty on the west coast (!) though am open to anything

Cons

• Traditional curriculum 2+2
• Bad Traffic
• Not sure if Westwood is as much of a bubble as people say or not
• Hard to read how impressive the match list is/isn't

Columbia
Pros

• Very prestigious school
• Diversity of patient population in Manhattan
• Love the free clinic system
• Students seemed very focused, driven, high achieving
• Great research opportunities and hands-on clinical experience at NYP
• Love the curriculum 1.5 yrs, flexible and all that
• Excellent surgical subspecialty training
• New experience in a new location, personal growth
• Amazing match list

Cons

• Washington Heights
• School with perhaps more intense personalities (east v west coast) in med students, physicians etc.
• Money (don't know financial package yet, probably not much)
• Don't absolutely love NYC (weather, crowded, etc.) but can see myself coming to love/appreciate it over time.
• Comfortable on west coast already

Washington University
Pros

• Full Tuition Scholarship
• Midwest people are nice
• Great medical school across the board and is a big name within medicine
• Awesome match list
• Great school for those interested in becoming specialists

Cons

• St. Louis
• Traditional curriculum 2+2
• Would rather be on the coasts
• Lack of diversity

Summary: Loved all of the schools on interview day. I would love to hear people's perspectives on this with slightly less emphasis on the financial consideration / difference between these 3 schools. Prestige is not all that important to me but wanted to open it up to discussion to get a realistic picture. Which school would open more doors for me, allow me to do what I want to do, and any other positives people can think of. As of now I am interested in clinical practice probably surgical. Cheers!

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[camnewton1]

Something to consider for WashU is the changing curriculum. You'll be the last of the class on the old curriculum, and will have some overlap with the newer classes on core clerkships during your clinical years. It seems like they have this under control; however, it is still something to consider.

Additionally, I think it would be worth seeing if Columbia will match the scholarships from WashU and UCLA. I know they have need-based aid, they seem to have some merit scholarships and may be receptive to matching.

 

[redeye2019]

I would say UCLA because of Geffen and the weather

 

[voltiva]

UCLA because of Geffen. Otherwise Columbia

 

[Quantal Reasoning]

UCLA. And lol at "prestige" and "match list" and "primary care" cons of UCLA.

 

[rball]

In terms of UCLA vs. WashU: Because you say you want to match into a competitive surgical specialty, I would highly recommend WashU. Keep in mind though that UCLA does not only focus on primary care - while they are particularly strong in IM and FM, they are still a well-rounded school.

WashU will give you a better chance to go into a competitive surgical specialty. I know that people will say you can do that from UCLA too, and that is true. But WashU will make your life easier, which you will be thankful for. Med school is insanely difficult, and you want any leg up that you can get to achieve your career goals. The match lists you referenced support this, and from my experience WashU students have a stronger track record of matching into top programs in competitive surgical specialties.

Westwood is a bubble unless you have a car, and even if you have a car, with traffic it can be tough to get out and actually do stuff. It's a nice location, but to answer your question, yes it is a bubble. WashU's location isn't going to be better though, and I would argue it's also a bubble. You are correct the midwest vibe is different than the CA vibe.

If you had no $$ from WashU, I would likely recommend UCLA based on the fact that you have a Geffen and that it is a great school. But given your full tuition ride from WashU, I would go there if you want to make it a bit easier to match into a competitive surgical subspecialty.

To answer Columbia vs. WashU - it seems from your pros/cons you would be happier at WashU. Your outcomes would be virtually identical from either, and yes Columbia/NYC = more intense environment, generally speaking. Couple that with the $$, and I think WashU is a better option.

 

[freedoctor17]

Most of your ucla cons aren't actually relevant/true. Seems like the clear choice here. (Like someone else mentioned... They are prestigious, match list is great, and it doesn't really matter if you're not interested in primary care...)

 

[Luckyone1023]

California!

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I'm quite biased but Columbia is the best medical school in the universe. The learning environment in the hospital is intense but it'll only better prepare you for residency and beyond. Besides, it's only one year. My colleagues by and large were not overly competitive people, at least not in a negative way. We hung out, partied, participated in a million extracurriculars, and all went on to residencies of our choice in our specialty of choice, where we are by and large crushing it. Especially if you're considering a surgical sub, my god there's no peer to the Columbia College of Surgeons and Surgeons. As for the money, you'll probably be pleasantly surprised; P&S was by far my cheapest option, and even if they offer you little you can leverage your other offers to probably get them to match. It's not like they're particularly struggling in the financial department.

 

[rball]

I'm quite biased but Columbia is the best medical school in the universe. The learning environment in the hospital is intense but it'll only better prepare you for residency and beyond. Besides, it's only one year. My colleagues by and large were not overly competitive people, at least not in a negative way. We hung out, partied, participated in a million extracurriculars, and all went on to residencies of our choice in our specialty of choice, where we are by and large crushing it. Especially if you're considering a surgical sub, my god there's no peer to the Columbia College of Surgeons and Surgeons. As for the money, you'll probably be pleasantly surprised; P&S was by far my cheapest option, and even if they offer you little you can leverage your other offers to probably get them to match. It's not like they're particularly struggling in the financial department.

OP - very sound advice from poster above. def try to get columbia to match your offers. From my experiences, in most surgical subspecialties WashU is a peer of Columbia, but if you prefer NYC/Columbia its a great choice too.

Just to clarify my previous post, I’d say Washu is roughly equal to Columbia > UCLA for your specific goals. If you can get columbia to match washu and prefer it, go there. If you like both schools about equally, id go with the cheaper option.

 

[Perkinjeboy]

Thanks everyone for the sound advice! I think "gut" desire is UCLA just because of the comfort and support factor. I do want to make a level headed decision though based on the quality of the education and opportunities. With that said, would Columbia/WashU open any doors for me that I wouldn't be able to open from UCLA? Columbia does seem incredible especially as far as matches into surgical subspecialties and for that it is super enticing. I'm curious if the "prestige" and reputation factor from Columbia could outweigh the award and comfort of SoCal and UCLA.

 

[theKingLT]

What's wrong with Washington heights? That place is dope

 

[rball]

Thanks everyone for the sound advice! I think "gut" desire is UCLA just because of the comfort and support factor. I do want to make a level headed decision though based on the quality of the education and opportunities. With that said, would Columbia/WashU open any doors for me that I wouldn't be able to open from UCLA? Columbia does seem incredible especially as far as matches into surgical subspecialties and for that it is super enticing. I'm curious if the "prestige" and reputation factor from Columbia could outweigh the award and comfort of SoCal and UCLA.

So if your gut is telling you UCLA, that is huge. Typically if you are well-informed about your options, especially with 3 comparable schools like this, you should follow your gut because your gut feeling is usually the right choice. I would highly recommend you talk to as many people as you can outside this forum who are physicians, students at these schools, residents in surgical subspecialties, etc. Lean on school counselors, people who know you well, etc also to help you out. And go to second look at all 3 if you can afford. After building that base of knowledge, if your gut still points you to UCLA, it is probably the right choice.

To answer your question, first of all I think it is important to understand Washu’s reputation in surgical specialties is roughly equivalent to Columbia’s. Just keep that in mind; yes Colimbia may have more “lay prestige” but among those who matter, the two are equivalent (obviously there is some regionalism and some specific residency programs may have a stronger track record with one school vs the other).

You can open any door from UCLA that you would be able to from Columbia/WashU. The difference is that to match into a top program in a competitive surgical specialty, you will have to work much harder at UCLA than you would have to at Columbia/Washu. Medical school is so difficult regardless, that this added difficulty can make it harder on your quality of life in school, give you less room for error, make your outcome more reliant on luck, etc. If you had said a top IM or FM program in CA (think UCLA/UCSF/Stanford), UCLA would have the edge. But because you are shooting for a surgical subspecialty, WashU and Columbia will make it easier to open those doors.

 

[Perkinjeboy]

So if your gut is telling you UCLA, that is huge. Typically if you are well-informed about your options, especially with 3 comparable schools like this, you should follow your gut because your gut feeling is usually the right choice. I would highly recommend you talk to as many people as you can outside this forum who are physicians, students at these schools, residents in surgical subspecialties, etc. Lean on school counselors, people who know you well, etc also to help you out. And go to second look at all 3 if you can afford. After building that base of knowledge, if your gut still points you to UCLA, it is probably the right choice.

To answer your question, first of all I think it is important to understand Washu’s reputation in surgical specialties is roughly equivalent to Columbia’s. Just keep that in mind; yes Colimbia may have more “lay prestige” but among those who matter, the two are equivalent (obviously there is some regionalism and some specific residency programs may have a stronger track record with one school vs the other).

You can open any door from UCLA that you would be able to from Columbia/WashU. The difference is that to match into a top program in a competitive surgical specialty, you will have to work much harder at UCLA than you would have to at Columbia/Washu. Medical school is so difficult regardless, that this added difficulty can make it harder on your quality of life in school, give you less room for error, make your outcome more reliant on luck, etc. If you had said a top IM or FM program in CA (think UCLA/UCSF/Stanford), UCLA would have the edge. But because you are shooting for a surgical subspecialty, WashU and Columbia will make it easier to open those doors.

I appreciate all the information and everything you're saying sounds about right to me (from the little that I know). One distinction that I'd like to add is that I intend to settle on the west coast. Though things can and will change going forward, and of course you can't pick and choose surgical residencies, I would ideally like to match on the west coast in a top surgical res. (those programs you mentioned) and maintain connections and networks in the area. Of course I realize that I haven't even started med school yet and can't plan that far ahead but would UCLA help me in this regard? Or would Columbia be much better. I could see myself happy anywhere, but with a slight nod towards sunny socal as I've mentioned but I have heard great things about the class at Columbia and how happy they are. I would not be all that excited about living in St. Louis for years. And if it comes down to the scholarship vs taking on a good amount of debt at Columbia if I don't get financial help would UCLA objectively be the better call?

 

[Quantal Reasoning]

There are no doors that WashU/Columbia can open that UCLA would not, even if you are talking about matching to the East Coast or Midwest, Columbia/WashU would only make it easier to match an elite surgical residency there.

But the same would be true of Columbia/WashU trying to match back to the West Coast; UCLA would allow a much easier time to match back to the most elite west coast surgical specialties.

 

[indecisiveconvention]

You will not have a problem watching back to the west coast by coming to WashU (just take a look at our recent match lists)! The lists show strong surgical matches (and also strong medicine matches if you decide to switch specialties).

You won’t be affected by the curriculum change because it will be put into place the year after you matriculate. Your main interaction with it will only be via opt-ins, nothing new will be required from your class.

I would also say I’ve been pleasantly surprised by how diverse the WashU and St. Louis community are. If you haven’t already, you should check out the Dis-Orientation Guide to find out more about the different cultures/perspectives here and also to hear from California students who go here! Home | Dis-Orientation Guide | Washington University in St. Louis

Hope to see you at second look!

 

[puahate]

UCLA

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Thanks everyone for the sound advice! I think "gut" desire is UCLA just because of the comfort and support factor. I do want to make a level headed decision though based on the quality of the education and opportunities. With that said, would Columbia/WashU open any doors for me that I wouldn't be able to open from UCLA? Columbia does seem incredible especially as far as matches into surgical subspecialties and for that it is super enticing. I'm curious if the "prestige" and reputation factor from Columbia could outweigh the award and comfort of SoCal and UCLA.

This is very important but you need to make sure it's for the right reasons. Is the comfort because of a lack of desire to move (i.e. complacency) or is it because of an amalgamation of critical factors? Nothing about the school matters if you aren't able to succeed there so this comfort factor is a top consideration.

Re: doors & prestige, again, I'm heavily biased, but at P&S it's less about the prestige factor (though it is frankly a big boost) than the massive pipeline/conveyor belt that they've built in the surgical subs over the many years. Basically you can go through the motions at P&S and still be set for ortho, nsg, ophtho, etc. ENT/plastics was a bit less automatic at least when I was a student. You can match anywhere from UCLA also, but from talking to residency applicants and reviewing their files, it certainly seems to take a bit more work.

What's wrong with Washington heights? That place is dope

Washington Heights kind of sucks haha

One distinction that I'd like to add is that I intend to settle on the west coast.

The best way to ensure this is to match into the best residency you can, regardless of region.

There are no doors that WashU/Columbia can open that UCLA would not, even if you are talking about matching to the East Coast or Midwest, Columbia/WashU would only make it easier to match an elite surgical residency there.

But the same would be true of Columbia/WashU trying to match back to the West Coast; UCLA would allow a much easier time to match back to the most elite west coast surgical specialties.

Frankly speaking most of the elite surgical specialty residencies are there to begin with.

Re: UCLA/west coast, it's possible UCLA might give you a leg up in California, (more than WashU/Columbia? don't think so but let's let it go for argument's sake) but a Californian who stayed in CA for med school is gonna have to realllllllly convince residencies everywhere else that they are willing to leave the SoCal cult behind

 

[rball]

I appreciate all the information and everything you're saying sounds about right to me (from the little that I know). One distinction that I'd like to add is that I intend to settle on the west coast. Though things can and will change going forward, and of course you can't pick and choose surgical residencies, I would ideally like to match on the west coast in a top surgical res. (those programs you mentioned) and maintain connections and networks in the area. Of course I realize that I haven't even started med school yet and can't plan that far ahead but would UCLA help me in this regard? Or would Columbia be much better. I could see myself happy anywhere, but with a slight nod towards sunny socal as I've mentioned but I have heard great things about the class at Columbia and how happy they are. I would not be all that excited about living in St. Louis for years. And if it comes down to the scholarship vs taking on a good amount of debt at Columbia if I don't get financial help would UCLA objectively be the better call?

This is a common misconception on SDN. The best way to settle down on the west coast is to go the best residency program possible. It is quite competitive to obtain a fellowship or job in a good location and good program/practice in CA, so the best way to do this, especiallly since you already have ties to CA, is to go to the best residency program you can. As the poster above me stated correctly, if you go to UCLA and are a lifelong CA resident, it will be more difficult to break into surgical residency programs in other parts of the country. And yes, most of the top programs in these fields are in midwest/east coast.

I do not believe that going to UCLA will make it any easier to match into a top surgical residency in CA. Especially to match at Stanford or UCSF, many would argue that Columbia or WashU would give you the edge.

I dont want this to sound like you cannot pursue your dreams from UCLA, you absolutely can. But from my experience (keep in mind im a resident on the west coast), you will have to do more to stand out at UCLA (ie AOA, higher step scores, better evals) to optimize your odds of matching into a top program in a surgical specialty and hence ultimately settle down on west coast.

By contrast WashU and Columbia routinely churn out top matches in the surgical specialties across the country, including in CA, even for their more average students. I’ve seen this firsthand at my own program and at several others. Hope this helps!

 

[Quantal Reasoning]

There's no way UCLA has worse outcomes than Columbia/WashU. That >2/3 of their students stay on the West Coast is a product of their preferences, rather than ability to match anywhere, which they can and do, but choose not to.

Here are the last two match lists from UCLA: Match Lists - David Geffen School of Medicine - Los Angeles, CA

For example, UCLA Neurosurgery matches:

Brigham and Women's
USC
UCSF
UCSD
UPenn
Yale

Columbia (couldn't find last year's):

• NYP-Columbia Univ Med Ctr
• NYP Hosp-Weill Cornell Med Ctr
• U Virginia
• UCLA Medical Center
• Wash U/ Barnes Jewish Hosp

WashU:

Barnes-Jewish Hosp St Louis MO
Barnes-Jewish Hosp St Louis MO
Barnes-Jewish Hosp St Louis MO
NYP-Columbia
Stanford

If I covered the names of the schools, would you be able to tell the difference (I mean yeah you probably would but still)?

 

[rball]

There's no way UCLA has worse outcomes than Columbia/WashU. That >2/3 of their students stay on the West Coast is a product of their preferences, rather than ability to match anywhere, which they can and do, but choose not to.

Here are the last two match lists from UCLA: Match Lists - David Geffen School of Medicine - Los Angeles, CA

For example, UCLA Neurosurgery matches:

Brigham and Women's
USC
UCSF
UCSD
UPenn
Yale

Columbia (couldn't find last year's):

• NYP-Columbia Univ Med Ctr
• NYP Hosp-Weill Cornell Med Ctr
• U Virginia
• UCLA Medical Center
• Wash U/ Barnes Jewish Hosp

WashU:

Barnes-Jewish Hosp St Louis MO
Barnes-Jewish Hosp St Louis MO
Barnes-Jewish Hosp St Louis MO
NYP-Columbia
Stanford

If I covered the names of the schools, would you be able to tell the difference (I mean yeah you probably would but still)?

I respectfully disagree, at least from my experiences and being aware of the selection process at our program and similar ones. Most if not all those matches you cited from ucla will be aoa/mstp, same is not true of washu/columbia. If you covered the names of the schools and compare match lists side by side for each school in the surgical specialties for the past few years, you can definitely tell a difference, especially when considering the proportion of the class that matches into these (UCLA has a giant class size but typically matches fewer into these fields per year).

I know graduates from ucla who had trouble matching into east coast programs they preferred, and also trouble with matching in general - their match rate is only 95%, and most who dont match are shooting for the competive specialties like surgical subs.

This is not a knock on ucla, just my experience as a resident. The poster from columbia who is also a resident has a similar perspective. Take our experiences with a grain of salt, but also understand that people who can best advise you on this sort of stuff are residents/fellows/ young attendinngs who have recently gone through the process and are familiar with the selection process. There is unfortunately a large deal of nepotism in these fields, and columbia and washu will provide an advantage in my opinion.

 

[ihaveagf]

I respectfully disagree, at least from my experiences and being aware of the selection process at our program and similar ones. Most if not all those matches you cited from ucla will be aoa/mstp, same is not true of washu/columbia. If you covered the names of the schools and compare match lists side by side for each school in the surgical specialties for the past few years, you can definitely tell a difference, especially when considering the proportion of the class that matches into these (UCLA has a giant class size but typically matches fewer into these fields per year).

I know graduates from ucla who had trouble matching into east coast programs they preferred, and also trouble with matching in general - their match rate is only 95%, and most who dont match are shooting for the competive specialties like surgical subs.

This is not a knock on ucla, just my experience as a resident. The poster from columbia who is also a resident has a similar perspective. Take our experiences with a grain of salt, but also understand that people who can best advise you on this sort of stuff are residents/fellows/ young attendinngs who have recently gone through the process and are familiar with the selection process. There is unfortunately a large deal of nepotism in these fields, and columbia and washu will provide an advantage in my opinion.

Thank you for your insights! Would you say columbia and washU also have a similar advantage over Ucsf?

 

[Quantal Reasoning]

I respectfully disagree, at least from my experiences and being aware of the selection process at our program and similar ones. Most if not all those matches you cited from ucla will be aoa/mstp, same is not true of washu/columbia. If you covered the names of the schools and compare match lists side by side for each school in the surgical specialties for the past few years, you can definitely tell a difference, especially when considering the proportion of the class that matches into these (UCLA has a giant class size but typically matches fewer into these fields per year).

I know graduates from ucla who had trouble matching into east coast programs they preferred, and also trouble with matching in general - their match rate is only 95%, and most who dont match are shooting for the competive specialties like surgical subs.

This is not a knock on ucla, just my experience as a resident. The poster from columbia who is also a resident has a similar perspective. Take our experiences with a grain of salt, but also understand that people who can best advise you on this sort of stuff are residents/fellows/ young attendinngs who have recently gone through the process and are familiar with the selection process. There is unfortunately a large deal of nepotism in these fields, and columbia and washu will provide an advantage in my opinion.

How do you know that? And how can it mostly be MSTP from UCLA when 1 out of 5 students at WashU are MSTP?

Regardless, I'm tapping out. No wrong decision here.

 

[lalalallala]

WashU will give you a better chance to go into a competitive surgical specialty. I know that people will say you can do that from UCLA too, and that is true. But WashU will make your life easier, which you will be thankful for.

oh come on. anyone who acts like you can't have a competitive surgical speciality from UCLA is crazy

 

[lalalallala]

OP rball is constantly saying these aggressive statements about prestige, so this is really not surprising.

Your outcome from UCLA will not be different in comparison to if you went to WashU or Columbia. If you don't really like NYC or NYC personalities then you shouldn't pick Columbia. If you are already comfortable and enjoying the West Coast I see no reason to move especially because you have the Geffen which is fantastic. You definitely don't need to be interested in primary care for UCLA.

 

[puahate]

You cAnt beat LA weather

 

[bonedoc5576]

A talented student from UCLA will match just as well from UCLA as they would have from Columbia Or Wash U or Hopkins or Harvard. To say otherwise would negate the value of paying for the name, but I wouldn't buy it. I'd be curious to see match lists of just Geffen scholars, but then again such list are meaningless as we know nothing of the individuals' preferences.

 

[littlefishbigpond3270]

Doesn’t the Geffen include a living stipend? Would you have to take out any loans at WashU for living expenses? If so, that’s a 100k+ difference worth considering!

 

[deleted962973]

OP rball is constantly saying these aggressive statements about prestige, so this is really not surprising.

I’m glad I’m not the only one who noticed this.

Imo it seems like WashU is the best middle ground here- their match list this year showed a lot of people matching into surgical subs, and they also are much cheaper than Columbia (I do not believe it is worth paying $250-300K for a name, given that you have generous merit aid from comparably strong institutions). However, I feel like the Geffen could be advantageous for your resume, the same way some people in undergrad will pass up HYPSM if they win a Regents scholarship at Berkeley or another UC. But based on what you are personally motivated by, it looks like WashU is the best fit!

 

[rball]

OP rball is constantly saying these aggressive statements about prestige, so this is really not surprising.

Your outcome from UCLA will not be different in comparison to if you went to WashU or Columbia. If you don't really like NYC or NYC personalities then you shouldn't pick Columbia. If you are already comfortable and enjoying the West Coast I see no reason to move especially because you have the Geffen which is fantastic. You definitely don't need to be interested in primary care for UCLA.

I feel like sometimes on these forums, people say what they want to believe rather than drawing from personal experience. There have been quite a few threads where I’ve advised a student to pick the less “prestigious option” so I dont think I am aggressively focused on prestige. In fact I told this student that if ucla is his/her gut feeling, it is the correct choice. I just want to be honest and give the student a complete picture.

As far as UCLA, this is just what I have observed from knowing many grads/students there and being familiar with the selection process. You can take a look at page 77 here for example, and see that their match rate is slightly lower than the national average, which you wouldnt expect based on their usnews ranking.
https://medschool.ucla.edu/workfiles/site-Current/Resources/Residency/CO-2016MayResidencyMeeting.pdf

This stuff is not hard to find online, and students from washu and columbia dont experience these types of problems with matching. I can tell you from personal experience that most of people at ucla who arent matching are aiming for more competitive specialties such as surgical subs.

As far as the MSTP/AOA comment, again this is not hard to verify. Pull up a recent ucla match list and ucla’s aoa and mstp website, look at people who matched into the most competitive specialties, and you’ll find most were aoa or mstp. You wont find this for columbia or washu.

Again, I am very familiar with the residency selection process in surgical subspecialties, with west coast schools like ucla, and other top schools like columbia and washu given that these students frequently apply to our program and similar ones, and given that I reside on the west coast. From my experience it is the case that a select few schools like washu and columbia provide a significant advantage. It would be really easy for me to just say it doesnt matter or to say “x school is highly ranked on usnews so of course they match well”, but this would be dishonest. Just trying to provide honest advice based on my experiences, and again this is something you can verify pretty easily by digging a bit deeper than usnews or talking to 4th year med students + residents/fellows/young attendings in your field of interest.

Also please don’t misrepresent what I am saying. I told the OP that any door (including surgical subs) that are open from washu/columbia would also be open from ucla, they would just have to work harder at ucla. It is really easy to misrepresent someone’s advice, but it doesnt do anybody any good.

 

[jessicajonesharvard]

I feel like sometimes on these forums, people say what they want to believe rather than drawing from personal experience. There have been quite a few threads where I’ve advised a student to pick the less “prestigious option” so I dont think I am aggressively focused on prestige. In fact I told this student that if ucla is his/her gut feeling, it is the correct choice. I just want to be honest and give the student a complete picture.

As far as UCLA, this is just what I have observed from knowing many grads/students there and being familiar with the selection process. You can take a look at page 77 here for example, and see that their match rate is slightly lower than the national average, which you wouldnt expect based on their usnews ranking.
https://medschool.ucla.edu/workfiles/site-Current/Resources/Residency/CO-2016MayResidencyMeeting.pdf

This stuff is not hard to find online, and students from washu and columbia dont experience these types of problems with matching. I can tell you from personal experience that most of people at ucla who arent matching are aiming for more competitive specialties such as surgical subs.

As far as the MSTP/AOA comment, again this is not hard to verify. Pull up a recent ucla match list and ucla’s aoa and mstp website, look at people who matched into the most competitive specialties, and you’ll find most/almost all were aoa or mstp. You wont find this for columbia or washu.

Again, I am very familiar with the residency selection process in surgical subspecialties, with west coast schools like ucla, and other top schools like columbia and washu given that these students frequently apply to our program and similar ones, and given that I reside on the west coast. From my experience it is the case that a select few schools like washu and columbia provide a significant advantage. It would be really easy for me to just say it doesnt matter or to say “x school is highly ranked on usnews so of course they match well”, but this would be dishonest. Just trying to provide honest advice based on my experiences, and again this is something you can verify pretty easily by digging a bit deeper than usnews or talking to 4th year med students + residents/fellows/young attendings in your field of interest.

Also please don’t misrepresent what I am saying. I told the OP that any door (including surgical subs) that are open from washu/columbia would also be open from ucla, they would just have to work harder at ucla. It is really easy to misrepresent someone’s advice, but it doesnt do anybody any good.

What does average # of applications submitted mean? For example, the average # of applications submitted for derm was 72 while # of matched seniors was 15. Does that mean 57 students were left unmatched? Can we apply to more than one residency specialty? Thank you.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

oh come on. anyone who acts like you can't have a competitive surgical speciality from UCLA is crazy

That's not what me or rball are saying though

Your outcome from UCLA will not be different in comparison to if you went to WashU or Columbia. If you don't really like NYC or NYC personalities then you shouldn't pick Columbia. If you are already comfortable and enjoying the West Coast I see no reason to move especially because you have the Geffen which is fantastic. You definitely don't need to be interested in primary care for UCLA.

That's an insane thing to say. Of course it will be, the difficulty is to predict how it'll be different. Based on the OP's statements one could credibly believe it could be better or it could be worse. With that said, for surgical subspecialties, it's hard for me to agree UCLA can match an equivalent student comparably based on personal experience on both sides of the veil of the Match...

What does average # of applications submitted mean? For example, the average # of applications submitted for derm was 72 while # of matched seniors was 15. Does that mean 57 students were left unmatched? Can we apply to more than one residency specialty? Thank you.

No, it means 15 seniors on average submitted 72 applications each. You can (should) apply to both more than one program AND more than one specialty though the latter is rightly discouraged. The overall matchrate for derm is probably around 60-80%

 

[jessicajonesharvard]

That's not what me or rball are saying though


That's an insane thing to say. Of course it will be, the difficulty is to predict how it'll be different. Based on the OP's statements one could credibly believe it could be better or it could be worse. With that said, for surgical subspecialties, it's hard for me to agree UCLA can match an equivalent student comparably based on personal experience on both sides of the veil of the Match...


No, it means 15 seniors on average submitted 72 applications each. You can (should) apply to both more than one program AND more than one specialty though the latter is rightly discouraged. The overall matchrate for derm is probably around 60-80%

Oh! Thanks for the explanation.