UCLA vs UMich

[ufache10]

UCLA (~408K after financial aid)

(+++++) True P/F curriculum for preclinical and clinical rotations. Despite some mixed opinions, I feel this is extremely attractive. Feels like one less thing to juggle, especially if needing to pump out research papers on the side for competitive specialties. I would say that I am pretty social and good with interpersonal things, but clerkship grading seems subjective. Comments will still be there so it is not like personality does not play a role.
(+++) Weather. It impacts my mood and I can count on it in Cali.
(++) High density Latino/ Spanish speaking population which is important to me.
(++) LA is very appealing to me as a location. I have friends there and friends who frequent there. I prefer to live in desirable, urban settings.
(+) Step 1 prior to clinical rotations is my preference and this is built into new curriculum.
(+) School feels about as non-competitive as it gets. I also think I can stand out.

(---) Cost is the running theme with this school this year. The "hidden costs" of LA lifestyle will only make it worse.
(--) I get the general sense that you need to figure out what to do at a very individual level. I think getting shadowing opportunities/ research opportunities require networking and seeking them out actively, moreso than at UMich. I am pretty good at doing this but still not ideal.
(-) Way more uncertainty with how strong the teaching is. Ultimately with this p/f curriculum it is all studying for step exams, but feels a little a crude to view it that way.
(-) I cannot totally depend on the reputation of the school maintaining itself given poor leadership decisions at school. I do like the newest Dean, however.
(-) School seems very disorganized and they are not transparent at all. Treat students in infantilizing ways, but this may just be admissions/financial aid.
(-) Decentralized nature of school makes it so that certain Physicians and researchers may not necessarily be on main campus/ an arms reach away.
(-) Strangely low amounts of school pride, even from older students that got good aid. May just be a Cali personality thing, but I hope the alumni network is not like this.


UMich (~270K after financial aid)

Pros

• (+++) Strong, very social community and student body. Students are where they are - not trying to head off to somewhere else each weekend
• (++) Strong sense of school pride, and alumni network is notoriously strong. Students seem close knit.
• (++) Hospital and research areas are all walking distance. Feels very accessible to reach out to certain physicians and researchers of all kinds.
• (++) Points for scholarship/ cost. Higher odds this goes up than at UCLA.
• (+) I get the sense that if a physician lives in Ann Arbor, they are there cause they want to be and likelyhood of caring about students is increased. Lower odds of "faculty in name only." Everyone of all levels seems to respond to emails.
• (+) More control over living arrangements because you do not need to live in subsidized student housing.
• (+) Older students seem more helpful and articulate. Also respond to communication efforts better.
• (+) Student body seems to do more wellness activities together and especially athletic endeavors, which is appealing to me.
• (+) Match list seems objectively stronger, and particularly in procedural things.
• (+) I do think the teaching and training is probably better. But how much of this translates to matching well is unclear. Furthermore, I think it may be more of a result of how rigorous it all is. UMich grads say they work more hours in residency but that it feels easier than what they were doing in school--almost the only time I have ever heard this. Putting it in the (-) also lol.
• (+) I can count on the reputation of the school remaining strong.
• (+) Ultra transparent leadership and extremely organized. Almost intimidatingly so lol.

Cons

• (-----) Graded clerkships seem like a pain in the butt, even with their renewed efforts to make them "competency based," rather than certain percentages of each student getting Honors vs HP vs P. They claim that all students can earn honors, but who knows if that holds up. Even if it does, it does not stratify the class but is still "extra responsibility." I do not like juggling and fear this will make doing research on the side that much harder.
• (---) Weather is unpredictable and bad. Feel like risk of being over-stressed/ depressed increases for me personally.
• (--) School seems like it will be more competitive and harder to stand out in. Way more people gunning for competitive things.
• (--) Step 1 and Step 2 back to back after M2 year seems pretty daunting. Feels harder to prioritize step 2 given all the other requirements of school.
• (-) I do think the teaching and training is probably better. But how much of this translates to matching well is unclear. Furthermore, I think it may be more of a result of how rigorous it all is. UMich grads say they work more hours in residency but that it feels easier than what they were doing in school--almost the only time I have ever heard this. Putting it in the (+) also lol.
• (-) Does not open up the West Coast as a region for me.

Not a perfectly comprehensive/ perfectly weighed list but you get the general idea.

Thanks for your help!

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[hydroflaskhomie]

138k extra in loans is a lot when you have two equally amazing options and not a very strong reason to go to LA (you'll make friends anywhere, you're busy in med school so location matters less than you think, you can easily "open up the west coast as an option" by doing aways there), I'd go Michigan here easily.

Also you're the first person I've seen mentioning disorganized vibes from UCLA - if this is true, run. I got bad vibes from one of my choice's administration (chose against them ultimately partially for this reason) and from what I've heard afterwards, I 150% saved myself from a lot of pain and suffering.

To your point about the big fish little pond thing, I don't think this is a useful schema to look at med schools by. At top programs like Michigan, there is more than enough resources to go around where everyone gets to look like a big fish to residency programs. Also, having your peers be equally accomplished and motivating is a huge asset during the marathon that is medical school.

Back to back dedicated has its merits because you don't forget as much!

 

[ufache10]

138k extra in loans is a lot when you have two equally amazing options and not a very strong reason to go to LA (you'll make friends anywhere, you're busy in med school so location matters less than you think, you can easily "open up the west coast as an option" by doing aways there), I'd go Michigan here easily.

Also you're the first person I've seen mentioning disorganized vibes from UCLA - if this is true, run. I got bad vibes from one of my choice's administration (chose against them ultimately partially for this reason) and from what I've heard afterwards, I 150% saved myself from a lot of pain and suffering.

To your point about the big fish little pond thing, I don't think this is a useful schema to look at med schools by. At top programs like Michigan, there is more than enough resources to go around where everyone gets to look like a big fish to residency programs. Also, having your peers be equally accomplished and motivating is a huge asset during the marathon that is medical school.

Back to back dedicated has its merits because you don't forget as much!

In UCLA's defense, I think that their disorganization is more like 95% of medical schools including top ones. UMich is just ridiculously organized because the staff in their administrative offices tend to be women in their 30-50s with like masters degrees. The staff in the admin office and financial aid office at ucla are all like young people in their 20s.

The low micromanagment at UCLA is very appealing to me. It probably hurts some, but I do not need all that much guidance.

Can you comment on the p/f versus graded clinicals? And AOA? This is one of my primary concerns.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to these and those of many others.

 

[hydroflaskhomie]

Sure! P/F clinicals is definitely ideal but I’m not sure it’s worth $138k. That’s kind of the only thing I see going for UCLA from your list besides the location (LA is great, don’t get me wrong, but Ann Arbor is also a pro for UMich for most people - it’s a really charming large college town co-located with an impressive undergrad). I like how they say honors is competency based - having clear structure (and less explicit reliance on mercurial resident/attending opinions) is good.

Don’t underestimate the power of a good administration - even if it is a tad micromanage-y it will save you time and anguish when you need their help to solve problems.

I don’t think AOA matters nearly as much as Step 2 and your research productivity and most importantly your connections. My school doesn’t have it, so that’s just my general impression from friends other places.

 

[ufache10]

Sure! P/F clinicals is definitely ideal but I’m not sure it’s worth $138k. That’s kind of the only thing I see going for UCLA from your list besides the location (LA is great, don’t get me wrong, but Ann Arbor is also a pro for UMich for most people - it’s a really charming large college town co-located with an impressive undergrad). I like how they say honors is competency based - having clear structure (and less explicit reliance on mercurial resident/attending opinions) is good.

Don’t underestimate the power of a good administration - even if it is a tad micromanage-y it will save you time and anguish when you need their help to solve problems.

I don’t think AOA matters nearly as much as Step 2 and your research productivity and most importantly your connections. My school doesn’t have it, so that’s just my general impression from friends other places.

Makes sense. I do feel that graded clerkships kind of detract from the ability to be productive in research concurrently, but probably not impossibly so. I appreciate the feedback.

 

[xUnrevealed]

Was accepted to UCLA, so I figured I'd comment on some of your pros/cons.

Regarding UCLA's disorganized nature, I think this is somewhat true from a management standpoint, but didn't feel like that was too big of a deal-breaker. I think the concern is that you're now on your own path and no one knows what's going on, but from what I've heard from med students, at least for pre-clerkships, they really baby you a lot and are on top of things so that you can try and fail without any unnecessary pressure. Clerkships i think may be different (but just for surgical specialties - if you're interested in surgery, from what I've heard, I wouldn't rec UCLA).

I also got the vibe that there wasn't much school pride, so that kinda sucks. It seems like a place though, where you can find your own community if you look for it & aren't being a gunner all the time.

One thing to consider is the weather at Mich, which you mention. For me, personally, I think that's a huge factor because I know that seeing a gray cloud laying over the entire sky sucks a lot.

But the financial aid thing is huge and might be worth considering it's a ~100k difference and not worth the CA weather. Plus, I don't think you'll have any issues matching back to CA (even if it might be a bit harder). So I personally pick michigan

 

[ufache10]

Was accepted to UCLA, so I figured I'd comment on some of your pros/cons.

Regarding UCLA's disorganized nature, I think this is somewhat true from a management standpoint, but didn't feel like that was too big of a deal-breaker. I think the concern is that you're now on your own path and no one knows what's going on, but from what I've heard from med students, at least for pre-clerkships, they really baby you a lot and are on top of things so that you can try and fail without any unnecessary pressure. Clerkships i think may be different (but just for surgical specialties - if you're interested in surgery, from what I've heard, I wouldn't rec UCLA).

I also got the vibe that there wasn't much school pride, so that kinda sucks. It seems like a place though, where you can find your own community if you look for it & aren't being a gunner all the time.

One thing to consider is the weather at Mich, which you mention. For me, personally, I think that's a huge factor because I know that seeing a gray cloud laying over the entire sky sucks a lot.

But the financial aid thing is huge and might be worth considering it's a ~100k difference and not worth the CA weather. Plus, I don't think you'll have any issues matching back to CA (even if it might be a bit harder). So I personally pick michigan

So sensible, I appreciate it.

I for sure love UCLA and think anyone is not making a mistake going there.

Not sure where I will end up but grateful for a decision to make.

I agree that cost is a major consideration.

 

[ConfusedPremed3000]

No input but good luck on your decision!

 

[dayoneofmedicine]

Hey, facing the same decision, would love to chat. FWIW at Second Look I heard they gave Honors to 95% of students at Michigan for clinicals so I wouldn't put graded clinicals as a huge minus.

I'm also thinking about going to WC for residency and it seems like if you want to go, you can go. Spoke to like 20 M4s / new Mich grads about this.

But I know next to nothing about UCLA's new curriculum etc. so def want to learn more.

 

[ufache10]

Hey, facing the same decision, would love to chat. FWIW at Second Look I heard they gave Honors to 95% of students at Michigan for clinicals so I wouldn't put graded clinicals as a huge minus.

I'm also thinking about going to WC for residency and it seems like if you want to go, you can go. Spoke to like 20 M4s / new Mich grads about this.

But I know next to nothing about UCLA's new curriculum etc. so def want to learn more.

Yeah lots of people are dming me about this now. You can join in!

I also heard this about UMich, but they are going to gather data and make it reflect tendancies of the graders themselves apparently lol. I think it may get tougher, but still better than before and all speculation.

My opinion is if duke does not need graded clinicals, neither should UMich. But I think UMich is very in-tune with what applicants need to apply to residency and they straight up dont really let you apply to residency without an extra year if their reviewers do not think you are ready, which I honestly do not mind.

But yeah feel free to dm

 

[atriablack]

Current M1 at UMich, happy to answer any questions!

 

[Yhwach]

UMich. Don't worry too much about H/P/F stuff. It sucks to think about when you are studying or on clerkships and you miss the H mark, but I know people that got AOA and didn't match. I didn't get AOA and still got into a competitive specialty. I think AOA is weird now because it no longer means what it meant previously.

 

[dayoneofmedicine]

UMich. Don't worry too much about H/P/F stuff. It sucks to think about when you are studying or on clerkships and you miss the H mark, but I know people that got AOA and didn't match. I didn't get AOA and still got into a competitive specialty. I think AOA is weird now because it no longer means what it meant previously.

Were you a student at Michigan? How has AOA changed / how does it work now?

 

[Yhwach]

Were you a student at Michigan? How has AOA changed / how does it work now?

No, I am a student at another school, but I interviewed at Michigan. What I mean is AOA is trying to be more inclusive. Certain schools reduced or got rid of Hs needed to be AOA and include extracurriculars. I don't know how Michigan determines AOA specifically.