UCSD MSTP v. Harvard NP

[mosquito]

hey all, looking for comments. just heard that I got into Harvard NP. wondering what everyone thought about interviews, friends at these facilities, or hearsay about Harvard or UCSD. While I am a scientist at heart, and have UCSD MSTP, wondering about in-house MD/PhD at Harvard. Also pondering straight MD at Harvard with research afterwards ( my PI did this, and is a Howard Hughes fellow). From the allopathic site, I've been getting some serious negative vibes off of UCSD (but my interview was great and it seemed like the students were doing good).
so my situation is from almost exact opposites: choosing between full-funded at UCSD or 50k/year at Harvard. Now I can hear the calls coming in saying "it depends what career you want" I'm not totally sure, so as i sees it my options are (please comment on any of my +/-

UCSDros: great location, great location, great location, excellent research, full-funded, Salk/Scripps PhD program, great housing, fun people
cons: (from SDN forums) extremely competitive, 30hrs/wk in class, sub-par hospital rotations, little diversity 90% CA residents

Harvardros: great hospitals, prestige, NP program, Red Sox, diversity of students, research
cons: pay my way, maybe PhD program, cold Boston winters

Now this is a difficult one for me, because I love research and had a great time visiting UCSD. The MSTP class was great and incoming MSTP's were a cool bunch with a good vibe. However once meeting the incoming med students the vibe changed a bit, and I was a little put off. SD is a great place to live and I could easily see myself there for x number of years
Harvard was great, good people, decent town, however getting into the MD/PhD program internally is the tough road I see ahead of me.
I was gung-ho ucsd, however in some of the posts it seems that most are claiming that ucsd's admin and classes are not that great. just wondering....

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[MacGyver]

this is an easy choice... UCSD all the way.

1. Financial cost: UCSD wins

2. Location: UCSD wins

3. You want to be a physician scientist? MSTP is better than regular MD for this, UCSD wins

Getting into Harvard MSTP as a first year student is NOT a sure thing..every year there are many Harvard first years who apply MD/PhD. Why go thru the application process all over again? its very difficult to get into Harvard MSTP, even if you are a first year.

Unless you really arent sure you want to be a physician scientist, then go for UCSD MSTP

Harvard @ 50k per year = 200k in debt
UCSD fully funded = 0 debt

Harvard is a better med school than UCSD, but its damn sure not 200k better

 

[Primate]

Boston is clearly the best city in the country, maybe the world (OK, I'm biased), BUT from what you've written this should be an easy decision.

UCSD wins. I faced a similar situation and it was clear that, although I absolutely love Boston (maybe the Sox will break the curse of the Bambino this year ), going to Harvard med was definitely not worth giving up on one of the best MSTPs. My education has far exceeded what I'd hoped for in the MSTP. Unless you NEED to have the H-bomb on your CV (in which case, you didn't need to ask the question in the first place), it sounds like your interests would be better served by going to a good MSTP. [Aside: having done research at Harvard, I can comment that their MSTP is currently a bit shaky (some would say it has sucked for the last 20 years, but that's overstating it). By the time you got in and went through, that may well be different.]

Also, my PI is "just" an MD (from a top 3 or 4 school, depending on the year) who did residency and then a full-up post doc both at Harvard. Though he just got tenure (ie, is successful), he's told me that he still wishes he'd done the combined degree. Take that as an n=1, but it's interesting all the same.

The money thing shouldn't be underestimated, either. Especially if you're considering academic medicine (in any form, not just running a wet-lab).

Remember, this advice (and all that you get from SDN) is worth what you paid for it. It's your call in the end.

Best,
P

PS - I still have season tix to the Sox. Maybe this'll be the year......

 

[DarkChild]

you know the thing is - i've seen two or three people face this exact same dilemma - but with Cornell's MSTP vs. Harvard's NP... all of them chose Harvard's NP.
i never really understood it because there are tremendous downsides to trying to go MD/PhD at Harvard internally.
can you get funding? can you even get in - considering you didnt get in the first time? plus Harvard's MD/PhD program has one of the worst track records of graduating its students in a timely fashion.
And about doing the MD - research route. I've got my reservations about that idea in general. How do you pay back the massive amount of debt that you'll owe? If you're on an academic salary (~80K-120K) for an assistant professor are you going to be able to comfortably afford the $700-$1K monthly debt repayments on top of rent, car payments, insurance payments... Thats got to be tough.
Also - more fundamentally though, I really think the nature of medical research by dint of it becoming increasingly specialized creates a number of challenges for an MD who wants to do research - much more so than in the past. There is just much more material to learn than there was even 15 years ago - the various fields in medical research are so much broader now. Also I think its much harder for someone without a rigorous research training to be able to appreciate the usefulness of various experimental techniques available. Not just in terms of what technique to use for a given question, but how the various experimental approaches can reinforce each other and how one specific approach that is used for something else completely can be extended into unfamiliar territory. More practically though, in competition for entry level professorships, MDs are at a disadvantage to MD/PhDs and PhDs because they need to establish themselves as credible researchers in 2 year fellowships positions following residency (assumiing you do a residency). Thats a lot of pressure. And I really think the odds are stacked against you. Like I said before, when medical research was less broad it was a lot easier, but things have been changing and i cant imagine the pace of progress slowing much.
Btw - this entire really long writ is based on your wanting to go into basic science research or some sort of disease oriented research. If you are interested in clinical research - thats a whole other story and in all honesty, I would advise you to go to Harvard.
Cheers.
Dark.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by DarkChild
If you are interested in clinical research - thats a whole other story and in all honestyDark.

All the more reason to get the MD/PhD in my opinion. I've worked as a scientist in academia, for the federal gov't, and in the pharmaceutical industry and 1 thing remains crystal clear: If you have the MD/PhD no matter if your work is clinical or basic science, you're at a clear professional advantage!

 

[dl2dp2]

actually i know quite a few people in this situation too. Most people who got into HST tend to pick HST over any MSTP. NP is a different story. HST is prolly the best med school program in the country and i don't think you are at a disadvantage compare to most MSTPs after coming out. NP though is harder to say, as it's REALLY not a cirriculum designed to trian physician scientists. The bottmon line is, the harvard name is really ncie: i have had been told that repeatedly. UCSD is REALLY on the up-swing though, the research at Salk+Scripps+UCSD i think in quantity is prolly even with Harvard+MIT, and in quality in certain areas (i.e. neuro) probably more cutting edge. i think it depends on what sort of person you are: if you are the risk taker, dreaming of making it big in science, go with UCSD. If you are more the secure "Asian/Jewish" (allow my disingenius stereotyping) preprof type, go to Harvard.

 

[Cal_Irish04]

I'd have to say this one is an easy one too. 4 yrs @ 50K per year is a whole lot of debt to deal with. SD is an extremeley comfortable and beautiful city and the med school is top notch, especially if you're going into neuroscience. One thing I wouldn't count on is getting to work with facutly at Scripps or Salk. Only a few are actually crosslisted. Still, you can work with some and the faculty at UCSD is still excellent. They are also putting a lot of effort into really stepping up the clinical part of the medical education. Hope this helps.

 

[badger03]

While it may be easy to argue that not all MSTPs are created equal, it is broadly accepted that the majority of NIH-funded MSTPs are solid pathways towards a career in academic medicine. Several weeks back, I was facing a similar situation in choosing between Cornell's MSTP and Harvard's NP (I was waitlisted for MSTP). I went with Cornell all the way!! The advice on this thread so far is good, but individually biased. In the end this will come down to a very personal decision -- one that will significantly impact your career trajectory.

The reputation of Harvard and the enticements of Boston were almost enough to pull me away, but when I thought about it I realized I was employing fuzzy logic to compare my options. Big names can be great but they can distinctly blur reality (and by the way, UCSD is no slouch). If you spent the time to look, it wouldn't be hard to find graduates from any of the well-known MSTPs who were just as successful in their careers, if not more so, than the majority of Harvard NP grads.

In the end, go with where you'll be happiest. Its cliche but true. If that means giving up a fully-funded position, then don't hesitate for a moment. I finally have peace after nine months of agony because I know that where I'm going next year is the right program for me.

 

[pathdr2b]

If this were my choice I would do the following:

1) I would matriculate at Harvard for the first 2 years of med school.

2) I'd take a leave of absence in my third year to get my PhD.

3) After finishing the PhD I would return to Harvard to get my MD.

4) I'd do a postdoc/residency (in Path of course, ) at NIH with the loan forgiveness for 4 years

5) Get on with life !!!!

 

[bailey39]

Hi there--
Path has a nice idea, if you're interested in the NIH loan-forgiveness options. I would check though, because as of last year they were only offered in certain disciples (HIV and some others). But there was talk of expansion, and I'm sure it'll be cover just about anything in a decade!

Another option is the Howard Hughes route-- I know of one HST and one NP doing this. HHMI pays for one-2yrs of research (salary and lab fees) AND some of the recipients (I think 10-20%) get their 3rd and 4th yr tuition covered. Not bad.

However, if I were you, I would probably go the UCSD route. I really don't want to worry about any loans and UCSD is an awesome school--you'd get a fantastic education. but choose it on your own interests. Either place can get you where you want to be in 4-8yrs. And hey, we get to be classmates if you choose NP

Good luck!

 

[MacGyver]

4) I'd do a postdoc/residency (in Path of course, ) at NIH with the loan forgiveness for 4 years

what? are you serious?

NIH will pay off $200,000 in loans for just 4 years of service?

Holy ****, that beats the pants off any state loan repayment program.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by MacGyver
what? are you serious?

NIH will pay off $200,000 in loans for just 4 years of service?

Holy ****, that beats the pants off any state loan repayment program.

Are you familar with the financial aide process at Harvard? It usually consists of grants, scholarships, and loans. The average Harvard med student doesn't leave the school 200K in debt.

So as usual, you've once again made a stupid as **** statement

I believe the max NIH pays off is between 120-160K

 

[MacGyver]

Where is a link for the NIH stuff?

At any rate, its all relative. Fully funded offer at UCSD MSTP is much better than paying your way thru Harvard and getting only an MD, unless you are not really sure if you want the full blown MD/PhD

Even if Harvard Med lets you take a multiyear leave of absence for a PhD (which is not a sure thing by the way), its much, much better to be in a combined degree MSTP. The average time length for straight PHD at Harvard is 7 or 8 years anyways.

 

[Sonya]

If you are positive about your MD-PhD descision, don't let a small difference in schools reputation effect that.

About 30 hr/week classes, I have friend at Univ of Ill ( ~30 h rs/wk classes) and NWU (10 hrs/wk classes). The students at UIC say they just skip a ton of classes, and it works out fine. They attend only if they know it'll be a particularly good class.

Sonya

 

[mandinga]

Power of the H-Bomb
The simple fact is that an MD alone from Harvard will take you farther than an MD-PhD from UCSD if you are interested in academic medicine. If you aren't interested in academic medicine, then there is no reason for the extra PhD. Regardless, even though it may seem unreasonable to go for rank, Harvard is in its own sphere. Any other school, and I would say take the MD-PhD. However, a degree from Harvard is worth it.

 

[Primate]

Perhaps.

Remember, though, that advice given on this board (or any other) is simply the opinion of that person. My experiences indicate that a strong combined degree program will take you farther in research than an MD from any program (yes, even Harvard).

If by academic medicine, one simply means clinical work in a university setting, then perhaps going to Harvard will be both more useful and a whole lot less time consuming than a combined degree (which, as was pointed out, might not makes sense for this type of career anyway).

These are, however, very different options.

P

 

[MacGyver]

Originally posted by mandinga
Power of the H-Bomb
The simple fact is that an MD alone from Harvard will take you farther than an MD-PhD from UCSD if you are interested in academic medicine. If you aren't interested in academic medicine, then there is no reason for the extra PhD. Regardless, even though it may seem unreasonable to go for rank, Harvard is in its own sphere. Any other school, and I would say take the MD-PhD. However, a degree from Harvard is worth it.

I'll put it precisely and clearly--this is crap.

MD/PhD always trumps MD alone for academic medicine/research.

MD/PhD trains you to be a scientist, MD does not.

UCSD MD/PHD matchlist into academic medicine is MUCH better than Harvard NP OR HST.