UCSF or UoP (I'm running out of time)

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Marjan

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Hi,

Please, help me out. I am new to this forum. I have been accepted to UoP... and on Friday I received a phone call from UCSF that I got accepted to their school, too. Now, I am totally confused and running out of time. I need to accept or reject UoP's offer by Tuesday.
 
They are both great school, but ucsf is cheaper
 
lucky you, you pbb deserve it.

from what I see,

if you wanna be a general dentist, go to uop, has a great clinical program.
if you wanna research or specialize, go to ucsf, ucsf is relaxed pass/fail system.
 
Congt. It's a wonderful dilemma to face. Both schools are great schools and hard to get in. I was in your situation and I know its a difficult decision to make. I ended up selecting UCSF over UoP. Here's some reasons that you may want to consider for choosing UCSF.

1. UCSF will save you about $150K. And you can use this money to open your own practice, as someone suggested this idea to me. And I know this makes a lot of sense. To be fair to UoP, UoP will get you done one year earlier. After talking to a number of dentists, almost everyone of them pointed out that as a new graduate you not gonna get paid $150K, unless you work at your dad's practice.
2. At UCSF, twice a week your classes end at 12PM. More time to study more time to have fun.
3. If you are interested in specializing, UCSF offers you a better chance of getting into an specialty program.

Here's some of the strengths of UoP and the counter argument.

1. UoP will treat you like a king, that is, the faculty will treat you as a peer. Very true. I do agree that they have a humanistic approach. And this is probably the reason that why a lot of people like UoP. My argument is this, do you really want to pay $150K more just to get better treatment.

2. UoP will get you done in 3years. True, but again you do pay more money for that..more money that you gonna earn as a new dentist. No one will pay you $150K for a new graduate. Let's assume that you got lucky and you get paid that money..that money will be your gross income not your net. And because you made over $90K you will be in different tax bracket, so you would be paying more money in taxes. Most dentists and dental students will tell you if you have an option of choosing between a school that save you money and a school that will cost you more money, pick the one that cost you less.

3. UoP have newer equipment. Very True ! UoP is a winner. The have better Dental Simulation lab, digital X-rays and so on. I have to admit UCSF don't offer you that, but you need to keep in mind that UCSF is a public school while UoP is a private school. If you really love working with newer equipment and newer technology and don't care about the extra money, I would say go to NYU because they have the latest of everything.

My final recommendation = go to UCSF.
 
I say put the names of both schools down on a piece of paper, close your eyes and point. Choose the one that your finger lands on.
 
lucky you, you pbb deserve it.

from what I see,

if you wanna be a general dentist, go to uop, has a great clinical program.
if you wanna research or specialize, go to ucsf, ucsf is relaxed pass/fail system.

76935184_81670c618f.jpg
 
on a serious note, if you're A. a girl B. hot, then by all means see ya in the fall!

Go to UCSF, it's a whole higher tier school than UoP in my opinion. (Not that UoP isn't a great school!)
 
Oh smack! 3 UCSF'ers are prepared to take Armorshell to a back alley in San Francisco! Hope UoP has a dental plan! 🙄
 
Congt. It's a wonderful dilemma to face. Both schools are great schools and hard to get in. I was in your situation and I know its a difficult decision to make. I ended up selecting UCSF over UoP. Here's some reasons that you may want to consider for choosing UCSF.

1. UCSF will save you about $150K. And you can use this money to open your own practice, as someone suggested this idea to me. And I know this makes a lot of sense. To be fair to UoP, UoP will get you done one year earlier. After talking to a number of dentists, almost everyone of them pointed out that as a new graduate you not gonna get paid $150K, unless you work at your dad's practice.
2. At UCSF, twice a week your classes end at 12PM. More time to study more time to have fun.
3. If you are interested in specializing, UCSF offers you a better chance of getting into an specialty program.


Couple of things that I take issue with.

1. Almost certainly, UCSF is going to save you money over UoP, but it's not going to be 150k, even for an instater. Several people here were accepted at both schools, and the difference for them was something around 70k total, which is definitely within the range for making the internal rate of return for UoP's extra year worth it for many. If you get the dean's scholarship at UoP it may be financially advisable, especially if you're not getting instate tuition. Also, the governator just jacked up your tuition IIRC.

Additionally, as 2010 above mentioned, you gain an extra year of average income, not an extra year of "1st year out" income. Try your calculation again with 190k or 300k should you choose to specialize. Either way you're getting a return on your money, even after taxes, and you're getting in to practice a year early.

2. 2nd and 3rd quarter, as well as all of second year, there is a half day at UoP of "ISO time." First year the time is ostensibly for working on pre-clinical projects, and 2nd year it's for self-study general pathology and oral pathology classes. More time to study, more time to have fun.

3. The whole specialty thing is absolute nonsense. Neither school is going to get you into a specialty program, that job lies solely on the individual. Everyone who applies to specialties at both schools gets in, with most of the exceptions being people who didn't have a chance in the first place.
 
I'm lost...why am I taking Armor anywhere?

on a serious note, if you're A. a girl B. hot, then by all means see ya in the fall!

Go to UCSF, it's a whole higher tier school than UoP in my opinion.
(Not that UoP isn't a great school!)

Mostly because of unqualified, BS statements like that. I'd love to hear an explanation of why UCSF is a higher tier school though. :laugh:
 
I'm lost...why am I taking Armor anywhere?

We're going to steal his lunch money. It's an East Side/West Side gang war. We claim control over the city of SF.
 
Even though I agree with most of what you say, I still don't agree with you here. Yes, you figure out the benefit using average income, but you have to take the figure from the extra year you'd work from the salary at the end of your career since it will be the extra year at the end of your career where you'll see the difference in extra years worked. That would be the average income of a dentist in 2042 based on my example above if you only work until you are 55 and you are 21 right now. I'll put together a spreadsheet to prove this if anyone wants it.

You're right, and I'm not arguing with you. There's two ways to model the extra year, 1 more immediate and of less imact, and one looking at the long term effects. Many people like to think they'll buckle down their first year out, spend as little as possible or shack up with parents, and use their excess income to pay down tons of loan money. Others are looking for long term advantage, the model I personally prefer. If you like the short term model though, you can defray 30-40k from the total cost of attending Pacific.

Think about it however you want, the point is there's some financial advantage to getting out a year ahead of time, and for many people theres a fair amount of emotional investment into a year of adult life.
 
And you say this based on ......what? If you didn't apply, then how are you qualified to make you statement. I didn't apply to either, but I am in no way qualified to make a claim about the schools other than what I looked up on the cost of education which anyone here can do. If someone requests help in making their decision, if you are going to put your opinion in at least back the reason up with your thoughts behind the opinions.

Based on what I read in this thread. I don't know anything about the schools and don't claim to! I'm pretty sure I said all of this in the above post? Just from reading this thread, the only real criticism on UoP was the cost... and that arguement seems somewhat moot. But hey, what do I know/care?
 
This is how I got my numbers.



15 Years @ 5% ( which is below the market rate. If I calculate it based on the current interest rate of 6.8%, the difference will be even higher)

UCSF = Loan amount $232,688 (http://saawww.ucsf.edu/financial/general/budget.htm)

-Term = 15 years
-Total Payment .( interest + Principal ) .= 429741.8
-Monthly payment = $1840.08

UoP = Loan amount $ 323,142
( http://dental.pacific.edu/finaid/DDS/cost_of_attendance.htm )

- Term = 15 years
- Total Payment .( interest + Principal ) .= $ 596796.44
- Monthly Payment = $2555.39

Total payment of UoP – Total Payment of UCSF = $ 167054.64

Sorry, it even cost more.




Hope this helps.




There is something wrong with this statement. You are trying to compare the difference in tuition to the amount of money he would earn in the extra year towards the beginning of his career. That is wrong. No matter whether the OP went to a 3 year or a 4 year school, the first few years the OP will earn about the same. Where you have to compare that year to is the income the OP would make at the end of the OP's career.

Here's why I state that. For example: Let's say the OP is 21 now and will be 24 if graduating from a 3yr program and 25 from a 4 yr program. The OP wants to retire at 55 (30 yrs in practice under the 4 yr program and 31 years under the 3 yr program.) Since the OP would graduate form the 4 yr program only a year later, the difference in earnings potential is negligible when comparing when the OP starts the dental career. So, over the 30 years after graduating from the 4 yr and 3 yr, the earnings should be pretty much exactly the same. Under the 4yr program, the OP retires at 55 after 30 yrs. But, under the 3 yr program, the OP is only 54 after 30 yrs. That leaves the OP an extra year to earn money if the OP choses to retire at 55 as the OP chose to do. In 30 years, the average salary (when considering how much salaries have changed over the last 30 years) then will probably be at least between $400,000 and $500,000 per year. After taxes, that would be a whole lot more than the difference in tuition.

Now, you could claim that the cost is about $150,000 more at UoP than UCSF. Where do you get that? I went to both sites just now and totaled up the total estimated expenses they list on the site. The difference comes to Right about $80,000 when you factor everything in including cost of living. One thign that UCSF doesn't factor in is the cost of living for the summer in between the first and second year that you. Therefore, take away about $5,000 from that total. Now, the comparable difference is $75,000. Even if you wanted to use the way you compared how the OP would ean $90,000 after taxes because of graduating one year earlier, the OP is still amking more after taxes than the $75,000. Plus, the OP only had to suffer through 3 yrs of school instead of 4 years. The amount of time that the OP doesn't have to endure the stress should also count a lot. I know I would easily shell out $50-60,000 alone just to be able to get rid of the 4th year of stress.

For the OP - So, basically, with this taken into consideration, don't worry about the cost difference because in the end you have the opportunity to make the cost difference up by working that extra year at the end of your career to retire at the same time you would had you gone to the 4 yr program, or you can just retire a year earlier and be satisfied with paying an extra $75,000 more for the opportunity to get d-school over in 3 years.
 
This is how I got my numbers.



15 Years @ 5% ( which is below the market rate. If I calculate it based on the current interest rate of 6.8%, the difference will be even higher)

UCSF = Loan amount $232,688 (http://saawww.ucsf.edu/financial/general/budget.htm)

-Term = 15 years
-Total Payment .( interest + Principal ) .= 429741.8
-Monthly payment = $1840.08

UoP = Loan amount $ 323,142
( http://dental.pacific.edu/finaid/DDS/cost_of_attendance.htm )

- Term = 15 years
- Total Payment .( interest + Principal ) .= $ 596796.44
- Monthly Payment = $2555.39

Total payment of UoP – Total Payment of UCSF = $ 167054.64

Sorry, it even cost more.




Hope this helps.

Seems rather spurious to quote the difference in price in your original post as the difference in payments after 15 years of interest, but at least ou came clean with it here.

As for another useful calculation, consider the total costs for attendance at the time of graduation.

Using the same websites, I determined the total cost of attendance for UCSF to be $249,788, once one factors in the 6 months of living expenses they, equally spuriouly, didn't include in the budget. I also used the off-campus total you used for Pacific, even though a huge percentage of students will live in housing significantly less expensive.

The total accrued debt for an in-state UCSF student at graduation, after capitalization, will be $291,057. The total accrued debt for a Pacific student, after capitalization, will be $356,321 for a total difference in debt at graduation of $65,264.

For an out of state student at UCSF, add $51,844 to that total in out of state tuition, for a total difference in debt at graduation of $13,420.

For an out of state student on scholarship at UoP such as myself and many others at UoP, UCSF would be more expensive.
 
3. The whole specialty thing is absolute nonsense. Neither school is going to get you into a specialty program, that job lies solely on the individual. Everyone who applies to specialties at both schools gets in, with most of the exceptions being people who didn't have a chance in the first place.[/quote]

I know you are a great man..but I have to disagree with you.

I might be wrong but based on what I have heard, both UCSF and UCLA place a lot of their students into specialties. I am sure current students of UCSF and UCLA can help us to verify this. This is due to the fact that both schools are very competitive. On my interview at UCSF, the director of admission said the avg. GPA of the entering class of 2008 is 3.7 with a DAT scores of 21, 21, 21…UCLA is around that range too, if not higher. I think the admission committee for specialties will consider the fact been one of the top 10 students in a very competitive school is not an easy task to accomplish. Let's say if two students who scored 92 on their NBDE1, have the same research experience, have great letters of recommendations, and have no connections… don't you think that the admission committee will consider the competitiveness nature of the school? They do this when they accept you to the dental school. As a side note, I loved UoP and I had really hard time deciding between the two schools and I select UCSF because it cost me less money and I really liked their curriculum(ex. pass/fail system, 2 half days) not because I would have a higher chance of getting into an specialty program. I have zero interest in any specialties. However, for someone who is interested in specialties this might be important.

Your can use this website to compare/look at the class profiles of these schools
Harvard = http://www.predents.com/?page=school
UCLA = http://www.predents.com/?page=school
UCSF = http://www.predents.com/?page=school
.UoP = http://www.predents.com/?page=school.
 
Do you want to graduate in 3 years or 4 years?

Do you want pass/fail?

Ultimately, we cannot help you with your decision. Choose where you will be happiest.

I didn't apply to either school, but I know if given the opportunity, I would go to a 3-year program in a heartbeat. Just the feeling of being done with school a year earlier is enough reason for me.
 
Your can use this website to compare/look at the class profiles of these schools
Harvard = http://www.predents.com/?page=school
UCLA = http://www.predents.com/?page=school
UCSF = http://www.predents.com/?page=school
.UoP = http://www.predents.com/?page=school.


Sorry, ya can't directly link to a school unless you know the magic number! :laugh:

This will change shortly once I make a few tweaks, the most important is the ability to hit the "back button" after viewing someones record. I know hitting refresh all the time is anoying!
 
I know you are a great man..but I have to disagree with you.

I might be wrong but based on what I have heard, both UCSF and UCLA place a lot of their students into specialties. I am sure current students of UCSF and UCLA can help us to verify this. This is due to the fact that both schools are very competitive. On my interview at UCSF, the director of admission said the avg. GPA of the entering class of 2008 is 3.7 with a DAT scores of 21, 21, 21…UCLA is around that range too, if not higher. I think the admission committee for specialties will consider the fact been one of the top 10 students in a very competitive school is not an easy task to accomplish. Let's say if two students who scored 92 on their NBDE1, have the same research experience, have great letters of recommendations, and have no connections… don't you think that the admission committee will consider the competitiveness nature of the school? They do this when they accept you to the dental school. As a side note, I loved UoP and I had really hard time deciding between the two schools and I select UCSF because it cost me less money and I really liked their curriculum(ex. pass/fail system, 2 half days) not because I would have a higher chance of getting into an specialty program. I have zero interest in any specialties. However, for someone who is interested in specialties this might be important.

Your can use this website to compare/look at the class profiles of these schools
Harvard = http://www.predents.com/?page=school
UCLA = http://www.predents.com/?page=school
UCSF = http://www.predents.com/?page=school
UoP = http://www.predents.com/?page=school.

You're welcome to disagree with me, but you're certainly not doing anything to convince me. If two students score identically on an impartial, national, standardized board exam than they are acadmically identical to many PIs. All of the non-ranking schools function off of the principle that a class rank is unimportant to determine the competitiveness of a future resident. Also, you can't in the same breath claim the the competitiveness of the curriculum makes the top 10% more competitive and say the the P/F curriculum makes it so much easier on the individual student.

Yes, many students from the UC schools will go on to specialize. There is a definite correlation. You should, however, know that doesn't necessarily point towards any sort of causative factor. Indeed, as evidenced by this forum, many pre-dents are more or less scared into attending a school with a high specialty rate because it appears to "guarantee" them acceptance into a specialty. Your "theory" only works if you assume every single dental student in the country is trying to specialize, which as you know is faaaaar from the truth.
 
Interesting, so just to throw another idea into the mix, if you were the admissions director of a perio program and had to choose between two candidates, a 92 from Harvard or a 92 from ...Univ of Louisville, who would you choose?

There's the underlying presumption in the discussion that the admissions director accepts based on test scores, not preference for any school.
 
Interesting, so just to throw another idea into the mix, if you were the admissions director of a perio program and had to choose between two candidates, a 92 from Harvard or a 92 from ...Univ of Louisville, who would you choose?

There's the underlying presumption in the discussion that the admissions director accepts based on test scores, not preference for any school.

I'm guessing you'd probably interview them?
 
I'm guessing you'd probably interview them?

Actually, Arthur'd interview them. He's the sock bunny I'd have on my left hand as I do voiceovers for him.
 
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