UCSF vs HMS

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Jonny13

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Hi all, of course, I want to say that I am extremely grateful for the opportunity that I have. Coming from a poor background and being a first generation college grad I would have never thought that this was the position that I was going to be in. Hard work does pay off.

UCSF

Pros:
Four-hour drive from family
Better recreational facilities/gym. This is HUGE for me.
The new curriculum seems innovative with the inquiry element, however, I am unsure if it is lecture based or pbl?
Nice weather
Mission Bay dorms are nicer than living in Vandy imo (haven't looked at the options in Cambridge).
Better clinical training? I read this from another post but I am unsure if it is true
Has a UCSF wellness pledge - demonstrates to me that they consider fitness important in my eyes

Cons:
Not as well known as Harvard in the general community. I am not sure if it can open as many doors as Harvard can for me nationally or internationally. Practicing medicine abroad is an idea of mine.
If new curriculum is lecture based then that is a con


Harvard

Pros:
Pbl based curriculum
The prestige of the school in the non-medical community
Research opportunities that may not be available at UCSF?
Possibly cheaper option for me than UCSF.

Cons:
Subpar gym. Again, this is HUGE for me.
Across the country from my family.
Not as centered on student wellness as UCSF

Unfortunately both second looks are on the same weekend.

Of course, other factors can be stated that I do not have a lot of knowledge about: availability of training at multiple hospitals etc. My intuition is telling me UCSF but maybe that is because I am unfamiliar with the East Coast and am unsure if one school will open doors that the other will not. The financial offers are not in yet but given similar offers, I feel that I should go to UCSF but I do not know if I am making a mistake by doing this. Again the gym is important for me and I have goals in this area of my life also. I understand I can search for a gym in Boston that caters to my needs but I wonder the convenience and the extra cost of this. Another thing about UCSF is that I can hang up some gymnastic rings on any pull-up bar outside all year round and go to town. I want to go to the place where not only will I learn the most amount of medicine that I can but also be the fittest that I can.

What do you guys think? Will the Harvard name open doors that UCSF won't in the medical field (not just nationally but internationally)? Any input is great guys. And if someone can substantiate that UCSF has better clinical training that would be great. I am currently interested in medical genetics but I know that may change. I want to be in the forefront of medicine and am pretty idealistic about pushing the frontier. I know that may sound silly and I know my specialty of interest may change. Apologies for the long post and thanks again.

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For full disclosure, I've been accepted to both and am choosing HMS. I definitely don't believe UCSF has better clinical training (especially now that HMS has condensed pre-clinical and 3 years of clinical), but they do have a greater emphasis on primary care, and therefore better training in that particular area (if that's something you're interested in). In terms of athletic facilities, all Harvard students can use any of the Harvard recreation facilities for free, including not just the HMS gym, but the Malkin Athletic Center, Hemenway, and others. I would check out their site (http://recreation.gocrimson.com/recreation/facilities/Facilities_Index) for more info. Some of my friends here are really into fitness, and they've liked the facilities (esp the MAC) but it depends on what you're looking for.

All this aside, in your shoes, I would choose UCSF. It seems like your heart is with UCSF, which is a huge factor IMO. It's close to family, you feel like your fitness goals would be more supported, you seem to be hoping for reasons to attend over Harvard. In terms of prestige in the medical field, they're pretty equivalent -- UCSF won't hold you back. Yes, Harvard has more overall name recognition in the general public, but I don't really think that matters, unless you plan on going into a field other than medicine after graduation. You can practice medicine abroad from either place.

My decision essentially came down to how I feel about the two schools, and although I think UCSF is awesome and I love California, my gut was telling me to go to Harvard. If your gut is telling you to go to UCSF, I think you should go unless there's some other compelling reason to go to HMS, which it doesn't seem like there is. I know it sucks that we can't attend both second look weekends. Good luck on your decision making process! If one of us changes our mind for some reason before April 30th, maybe I'll see you in the fall! :)
 
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For the research component, you are looking at two powerhouses that have boundless opportunities for medical students. Research should not sway your decision one way or the other.


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You gotta go with Harvard. It is the best medical school in the world. There are only open doors for you coming out of HMS.
 
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You gotta go with Harvard. It is the best medical school in the world. There are only open doors for you coming out of HMS.

I mean, Harvard is Harvard, but I highly highly doubt there is any door closed to a UCSF grad that is open to HMS. UCSF is a top 5 program in the country - you can do whatever you want to out of there.
 
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I mean, Harvard is Harvard, but I highly highly doubt there is any door closed to a UCSF grad that is open to HMS. UCSF is a top 5 program in the country - you can do whatever you want to out of there.

Yea. but its harvard
 
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I would go to the Harvard second look and get a better feel for the area/city/school since you aren't as familiar with it. If you absolutely fall in love, you have your answer. If not, UCSF is your answer.
 
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Thanks for your responses guys, I appreciate them! The financial offers have come in and even though it is evaluated annually I assumed similar financial aid offers for the subsequent years. According to my calculations UCSF is about 30k cheaper over the course of 4 years (~138k debt vs ~168K) debt. In my eyes, both those numbers are large but that 168k is killer -_-. I'll be going to HMS's second look to see if I fall in love with the place but it's going to take a lot to wow me in order to off set that 30k.
 
Thanks for your responses guys, I appreciate them! The financial offers have come in and even though it is evaluated annually I assumed similar financial aid offers for the subsequent years. According to my calculations UCSF is about 30k cheaper over the course of 4 years (~138k debt vs ~168K) debt. In my eyes, both those numbers are large but that 168k is killer -_-. I'll be going to HMS's second look to see if I fall in love with the place but it's going to take a lot to wow me in order to off set that 30k.
Hey I don't want to dismiss the way you feel, but that $30k isn't really that big of a deal in the long run, and a chance at either school for either price tag is not that high. It's obviously your decision and your debt to pay, but I wouldn't let that difference be the decision maker were it me. But it's not and I think your heart is with UCSF anyway, so why not save the money. Either way, you really can't go wrong.
 
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Hey I don't want to dismiss the way you feel, but that $30k isn't really that big of a deal in the long run, and a chance at either school for either price tag is not that high. It's obviously your decision and your debt to pay, but I wouldn't let that difference be the decision maker were it me. But it's not and I think your heart is with UCSF anyway, so why not save the money. Either way, you really can't go wrong.

Thanks for the input. I guess I just can't fathom how much that debt will affect me in the future. I have no clue.

On that note, it is difficult to turn down HMS. We'll see how I feel after ASW this week! Thanks again.
 
Thanks for the input. I guess I just can't fathom how much that debt will affect me in the future. I have no clue.

On that note, it is difficult to turn down HMS. We'll see how I feel after ASW this week! Thanks again.
Hey Jonny,

30k will not affect you at all as a Harvard or as a UCSF graduate. Sincerely, I encourage you to go to the one that you think is the more perfect fit, but, as someone who has friends at both schools, I know that Harvard is freaking Harvard. They are both top-notch schools, but Harvard is the best school in the world. That really means something.
 
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I know that Harvard is freaking Harvard. They are both top-notch schools, but Harvard is the best school in the world. That really means something

...to Grandma, your friend from high school, a tourist you meet in Geneva, yes. To the residency director holding the keys to your future? Nope. He/she is not going to think HMS is better than UCSF because its Harvard. Prestige within the medical community – which is what will get you a residency or a job – is different than prestige within the lay or non-medical community. There is no difference in name, ranking or prestige between HMS/UCSF and anyone who tells you otherwise is uninformed on this.

Yes, it's Harvard, but faculty do not flock to it for the Harvard name and the medical community does not put it in a tier above the other top-tier medical schools/institutions. HMS vs X other top-tier is never a given for medical school, residency, fellowship, faculty positions, etc., because people understand that within the medical community, there is not a difference in prestige and it's all about choosing where you will be best set up to succeed (based on your personal circumstances). Don't go there because it's Harvard. That's just silly. Think about opportunities and fit. There's no wrong answer.
 
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...to Grandma, your friend from high school, a tourist you meet in Geneva, yes. To the residency director holding the keys to your future? Nope. He/she is not going to think HMS is better than UCSF because its Harvard. Prestige within the medical community – which is what will get you a residency or a job – is different than prestige within the lay or non-medical community. There is no difference in name, ranking or prestige between HMS/UCSF and anyone who tells you otherwise is uninformed on this.

Yes, it's Harvard, but faculty do not flock to it for the Harvard name and the medical community does not put it in a tier above the other top-tier medical schools/institutions. HMS vs X other top-tier is never a given for medical school, residency, fellowship, faculty positions, etc., because people understand that within the medical community, there is not a difference in prestige and it's all about choosing where you will be best set up to succeed (based on your personal circumstances). Don't go there because it's Harvard. That's just silly. Think about opportunities and fit. There's no wrong answer.
Didn't say there was a wrong answer. But, only one school is the best school in the world.
 
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...to Grandma, your friend from high school, a tourist you meet in Geneva, yes. To the residency director holding the keys to your future? Nope. He/she is not going to think HMS is better than UCSF because its Harvard. Prestige within the medical community – which is what will get you a residency or a job – is different than prestige within the lay or non-medical community. There is no difference in name, ranking or prestige between HMS/UCSF and anyone who tells you otherwise is uninformed on this.

Yes, it's Harvard, but faculty do not flock to it for the Harvard name and the medical community does not put it in a tier above the other top-tier medical schools/institutions. HMS vs X other top-tier is never a given for medical school, residency, fellowship, faculty positions, etc., because people understand that within the medical community, there is not a difference in prestige and it's all about choosing where you will be best set up to succeed (based on your personal circumstances). Don't go there because it's Harvard. That's just silly. Think about opportunities and fit. There's no wrong answer.

I tend to think of Harvard as a class of its own. I know that for US news and world report rankings, Harvard scored around 100 and the next highest school (I think it's stanford, I don't have the order memorized) is somewhere in the high 80's. So it scored pretty high above. As has been said elsewhere on this thread, "It's freaking Harvard". Not a residency director, though.
 
I love Harvard, and in my heart (lol) it is 'the best school in the world.' But in reality, Harvard's medical school has a number of peer institutions, like Hopkins, Stanford, and UCSF, that can reasonably be considered equals in terms of reputation, clinical training, and medical research. I think the broad strength of Harvard as a university (when you consider the law school, business school, Kennedy school, affiliated research institutions, etc) is pretty unparalleled, but the medical school itself is not in a tier of its own. I don't think anyone should let themselves be persuaded to come here by the Harvard name if they don't truly feel that Harvard is the best fit for them.
 
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Premed perception and the perception of lay people is just that. I see you're both premeds. Are you familiar with the prestige of Harvard relative to other top tier institutions within the medical community?

Harvard is one of the best schools in the world and an elite institution worthy of its reputation. This reputation translates to medicine, but it does not stand in a class above other top tier medical institutions. Nobody who is familiar with medical prestige thinks Harvard is in a class by itself. Nobody. Including the people at Harvard.

The people saying "It's freaking Harvard" are most likely not people with a good sense of prestige within the medical community and thus are not the people who have a good sense of what will be affecting your career in medicine. You are well within your right to go to Harvard because it's Harvard. However, for the sake of medical progress and innovation I am thankful that the majority of leading minds do not make their decisions on name alone. Do you want the leading scientist on x type of cancer to go to Harvard because its Harvard or to carefully consider the recruitment offers from the various leading institutions and decide based on which institution would maximize his/her chance for successful medical innovation? Thankfully, nearly all use the latter to make judgements and favor innovation and success within the medical community over what may sound better to their neighbor Steve.
 
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I think the broad strength of Harvard as a university (when you consider the law school, business school, Kennedy school, affiliated research institutions, etc) is pretty unparalleled, but the medical school itself is not in a tier of its own. I don't think anyone should let themselves be persuaded to come here by the Harvard name if they don't truly feel that Harvard is the best fit for them.

where's the hand praise emoji when i need it
 
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Premed perception and the perception of lay people is just that. I see you're both premeds. Are you familiar with the prestige of Harvard relative to other top tier institutions within the medical community?

Harvard is one of the best schools in the world and an elite institution worthy of its reputation. This reputation translate to medicine, but it does not stand in a class above other top tier medical institutions. Nobody who is familiar with medical prestige thinks Harvard is in a class by itself. Nobody. Including the people at Harvard.

The people saying "It's freaking Harvard" and most likely not people with a good sense of prestige within the medical community and thus are not the people who have a good sense of what will be affecting your career in medicine. You are well within your right to go to Harvard because it's Harvard. However, for the sake of medical progress and innovation I am thankful that the majority of leading minds do not make their decisions on name alone. Do you want the leading scientist on x type of cancer to go to Harvard because its Harvard or to carefully consider the recruitment offers of the various leading institutions and decide based on which institution would maximize his chance for successful medical innovation? Thankfully, nearly all use the latter to make judgements and favor innovation and success within the medical community over what may sound better to their neighbor Steve.
I was speaking more of the quality of the education and the resources available. My "It's freaking Harvard" was more towards the disparity in ranking in the US News and World report, and inferred quality of education and availability of resources. This is tricky to convey online. Stanford, UC, all of these have AMAZING programs. But so does Harvard. It has equal prestige in terms of residency; you just have to look at their match lists to see that. I would just be more inclined to think that the quality of the education and resources are more at Harvard (although maybe negligibly so), based on the disparity of scores in the rankings. I know the rankings are crap though, and may not be close to accurate.

I apologize if I did not explain it well enough before. I haven't had my coffee yet.

Also, yes I'm a premed. But I've also been accepted, so I'm not a total idiot.
 
I haven't had my coffee yet.

ugh I feel you. I would be in favor of throwing coffee caliber into this decision haha

Didn't mean for the response to be so directed at you and was just trying to highlight what seems to be a widespread misconception about Harvard's reputation within the medical community relative to its peer institutions and relative to the University's reputation as a whole. Harvard is clearly elite so leaving it at that is probably fine.

The quality of education likely doesn't differ at all across top institutions (and really across the majority of decent medical schools). Harvard is massive. This does mean more resources, but unless you were planning on staying in medical school for thirty years to take advantage of all of them, the fact that Harvard has a slightly higher number of affiliated hospitals/research institutions than UCSF/Hopkins/Stanford/Penn probably makes no difference to medical students.
 
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ugh I feel you. I would be in favor of throwing coffee caliber into this decision haha

Didn't mean for the response to be so directed at you and was just trying to highlight what seems to be a widespread misconception about Harvard's reputation within the medical community relative to its peer institutions and relative to the University's reputation as a whole. Harvard is clearly elite so leaving it at that is probably fine.

The quality of education likely doesn't differ at all across top institutions (and really across the majority of decent medical schools). Harvard is massive. This does mean more resources, but unless you were planning on staying in medical school for thirty years to take advantage of all of them, the fact that Harvard has a slightly higher number of affiliated hospitals/research institutions than UCSF/Hopkins/Stanford/Penn probably makes no difference to medical students.
100% agree. With everything you just said.

OP, no one is ever going to say "Oh, this person went to UCSF *scoffs*. We'll take the Harvard grad instead. Harvard is everything."

They are two amazing schools with two amazing reputations. Therefore, do what you think is best for you.
 
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Going to throw in my two cents here: I interviewed at Harvard, and although everyone seemed generally happy to be there (because "it's Harvard!"), there's also some real logistical things to consider. For instance, they have one-year pre-clinical. You don't get a summer after M1, instead you just power through for 13 straight months of science classes. Some people love this; other students were worried on how it would help them prep for Step 1. I personally couldn't fathom doing all my preclinical work in 1 year. UCSF, from what I understand, is more traditional when it comes to pre-clinical. Which is better for you?

A lot of other students at Harvard complained about how their anatomy course was structured and felt like it was too rushed. Or, how do you feel about living in a dorm like Vandy for your first year? I really don't say any of this to knock Harvard - obviously it is an amazing school - but just to echo the sentiment that a lot of times people focus so much on names and rankings that they forget to pay attention to fit. Consider not just location, prestige, cost, etc, but also how well that school's way of teaching is going to work for you personally. Since you are deciding between to two equally prestigious schools, you have the luxury to consider these things!
 
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My 2 cents as a biased Harvard student: I think you are leaning UCSF and trying to convince yourself that it's the right way to lean. Go with your gut. If UCSF feels best, go there.

That being said, you wrote: "Will the Harvard name open doors that UCSF won't in the medical field (not just nationally but internationally)?" IMO as someone who has worked internationally as an affiliate of a variety of universities, Harvard will mean a lot more than UCSF to most people outside of medicine and/or outside of the USA. UCSF 100% has the same prestige in the medical community in the USA, and choosing UCSF will have no impact on residency/fellowship/career opportunities etc. But internationally people will react more strongly to the Harvard name, particularly in contexts outside of pure medicine (e.g. public/global health), and this translates into more open doors. This probably isn't a big enough reason to go to Harvard if all other things point UCSF, but if you're set on doing global health or something similar, it's something to consider.

However, if you're not planning to start doing anything internationally until you are in/finish residency, also probably won't matter as by that time you'll be affiliated with whatever university you work for.
 
I was speaking more of the quality of the education and the resources available. My "It's freaking Harvard" was more towards the disparity in ranking in the US News and World report, and inferred quality of education and availability of resources. This is tricky to convey online. Stanford, UC, all of these have AMAZING programs. But so does Harvard. It has equal prestige in terms of residency; you just have to look at their match lists to see that. I would just be more inclined to think that the quality of the education and resources are more at Harvard (although maybe negligibly so), based on the disparity of scores in the rankings. I know the rankings are crap though, and may not be close to accurate.

I apologize if I did not explain it well enough before. I haven't had my coffee yet.

Also, yes I'm a premed. But I've also been accepted, so I'm not a total idiot.

Just so you know, the "ranking" out of 100 on USNWR is a normalized value where the top school / program is automatically 100 and the next schools are scaled based on that. It's not that Harvard scored 100% in every category and Hopkins or ucsf scored 88% or whatever.

There is no difference in career prospects between ucsf and Harvard except that Harvard grads are more likely to end up at Harvard and ucsf grads are more likely to end up at ucsf.
 
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Just so you know, the "ranking" out of 100 on USNWR is a normalized value where the top school / program is automatically 100 and the next schools are scaled based on that. It's not that Harvard scored 100% in every category and Hopkins or ucsf scored 88% or whatever.

There is no difference in career prospects between ucsf and Harvard except that Harvard grads are more likely to end up at Harvard and ucsf grads are more likely to end up at ucsf.
Right. My point was the next one down wasn't a 98, it was in the 80's.
 
Because it's scaled, insignificant differences can be greatly magnified.
Good to know! also why I included my disclaimer ("I know the rankings are crap though, and may not be close to accurate."). So that great of a difference could be the difference in, say, 10 mil of research funding? Or something just as insignificant?
 
Good to know! also why I included my disclaimer ("I know the rankings are crap though, and may not be close to accurate."). So that great of a difference could be the difference in, say, 10 mil of research funding? Or something just as insignificant?

I don't know what the actual differences are. USNWR takes into account a lot of stuff that doesn't really matter. You have to pay to find out more.
 
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Good to know! also why I included my disclaimer ("I know the rankings are crap though, and may not be close to accurate."). So that great of a difference could be the difference in, say, 10 mil of research funding? Or something just as insignificant?
I remember hearing on my interview day some ridiculous claim that each and every Harvard Hospital has more funding than the entirety of Stanford's med school. Which is why when you search Top NIH funded schools, Harvard isn't on the list. They don't count it lolol. But anyway, it's my theory that Harvard is and always will be #1 simply because of the sheer amount of funding. Now that sounds awesome, but really, how many millions dollars of funding do you, personally, as a student need "access" to feel comfortable choosing a school that has tons of research opportunities. UCSF "only" has a couple hundred million, while Harvard might have a billion (just making these number up, have no actual idea). Guaranteed you'll find an amazing research project at either, regardless of the actual magnitude of money. It's already a lot.

Harvard is 1, but I wonder what it's rank would be if the funding component were taken out of the USNWR equation. Or if if was a more yes/no type of criteria rather than a magnitude one. Like if you were in top 10 NIH funding you get a point.

Point is, the rankings REALLY ARE crap. All the top 10 schools are in a tier of their own. I don't even buy the whole claim that top 5 or top 3 are somehow better than the rest of the top 10. They are all amazing facilities with tons of money, great faculty, etc etc. Choose based on personal fit.
 
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I remember hearing on my interview day some ridiculous claim that each and every Harvard Hospital has more funding than the entirety of Stanford's med school. Which is why when you search Top NIH funded schools, Harvard isn't on the list. They don't count it lolol. But anyway, it's my theory that Harvard is and always will be #1 simply because of the sheer amount of funding. Now that sounds awesome, but really, how many millions dollars of funding do you, personally, as a student need "access" to feel comfortable choosing a school that has tons of research opportunities. UCSF "only" has a couple hundred million, while Harvard might have a billion (just making these number up, have no actual idea). Guaranteed you'll find an amazing research project at either, regardless of the actual magnitude of money. It's already a lot.

Harvard is 1, but I wonder what it's rank would be if the funding component were taken out of the USNWR equation. Or if if was a more yes/no type of criteria rather than a magnitude one. Like if you were in top 10 NIH funding you get a point.

Point is, the rankings REALLY ARE crap. All the top 10 schools are in a tier of their own. I don't even buy the whole claim that top 5 or top 3 are somehow better than the rest of the top 10. They are all amazing facilities with tons of money, great faculty, etc etc. Choose based on personal fit.
Rankings are crap, but is it true that Harvard and (as an example) Duke are essentially equal then in terms of prestige? Genuinely curious, because on this forum they don't seem to be considered that way.
 
Rankings are crap, but is it true that Harvard and (as an example) Duke are essentially equal then in terms of prestige? Genuinely curious, because on this forum they don't seem to be considered that way.
I honestly think so, at least in the medical world. To the lay person, harvard is better, but I think if there's any benefit it's minimal. Better to go to the school you'll love for 4 years than the school you think will give you minutely more prestige.

For example, I personally thought Harvard was not a good fit for me. Now I didn't get in, but I wouldn't have gone. The dorms were not my cup of tea, the curriculum seemed absolutely insane and wouldn't allow for any extra curriculars like research until third year (or second year if you were really committed). It just seemed too intense for me. Duke did not seem that way.
 
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