UCSF vs. U. Michigan

[Wildebeast]

I know there both great schools, but which one would you pick and why?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[happydays]

I know there both great schools, but which one would you pick and why?

There are several factors that made Michigan my first choice:
1. In-state tuition
2. 30 min from home
3. Well-rounded weather (yes, we have all 4 seasons)
4. Living expenses in Ann Arbor is (in general) less than that from from the East or West coast.
5. Most importantly, they love their students. I'm not sure what UCSF is like, but here, the med students are really pampered.

But, you can't go wrong either way.

 

[Wildebeast]

There are several factors that made Michigan my first choice:
1. In-state tuition
2. 30 min from home
3. Well-rounded weather (yes, we have all 4 seasons)
4. Living expenses in Ann Arbor is (in general) less than that from from the East or West coast.
5. Most importantly, they love their students. I'm not sure what UCSF is like, but here, the med students are really pampered.

But, you can't go wrong either way.

Thanks happydays. Do you know if out-of-staters can get in-state tutition at Mich after the first year? Also, could you explain what you mean when you say that students are pampered?

 

[wake_o]

you cant get in-stateafter a year. you have to have fsmily or work(schhool doesnt count). the state is pretty tight. im gld im a resident


but i would say umich, seems more reputable, and has amazing faculties

 

[Wildebeast]

you cant get in-stateafter a year. you have to have fsmily or work(schhool doesnt count). the state is pretty tight. im gld im a resident


but i would say umich, seems more reputable, and has amazing faculties

Thanks, wake_o...do you know if Michi ever tends to give scholarships to out-of-staters to try and even out this discrepency?

 

[wake_o]

they're pretty stingy since they know theyll get students even if they give out little money and since they are public, but im sure if you pu tin the effort you can squeeze some money out of them!

 

[happydays]

The average amount of scholarship and/or grants is about $12,000. You're basically paying in-state tuition anyway.

By pampering, I mean that if there's something you feel is missing from the school, they'll put it in. Past years' students have told me that they were able to get the on-line lectures, money to spend at the vending machines and cafeteria (for those long study sessions), etc. The administration have these meetings with students to see how happy they are with the way things are going. They encourage you to find the speciality that's right for you right away. There's an actual doctor mentor for each specialty, and you go to them to get additional experiences, like research or shadowing. (This helps the most with getting into competitive programs.) Finally, Michigan prepares their students very well for the boards, but I'm sure UCSF's board score is also high.

 

[drlalchick]

Well, as a Californian might be expected to say, I would most certainly attend UCSF. Besides the fact that you can forget about buying snow shoes or down jackets, you are in one of the greatest cities and at a med school that is said to rival Harvard and Hokpins. UCSF has quite a bit of money for a public school, and UCSF has had more in the ways of research over the last 10 years than has either Harvard or Hopkins. There is a lot going on at UCSF and thus a lot to learn. Plus, it's very hard to be unhappy when you look outside your window in February and the sun in shining! Just my opinion, though

 

[dbhvt]

Well, as a Californian might be expected to say, I would most certainly attend UCSF. Besides the fact that you can forget about buying snow shoes or down jackets, you are in one of the greatest cities and at a med school that is said to rival Harvard and Hokpins. UCSF has quite a bit of money for a public school, and UCSF has had more in the ways of research over the last 10 years than has either Harvard or Hopkins. There is a lot going on at UCSF and thus a lot to learn. Plus, it's very hard to be unhappy when you look outside your window in February and the sun in shining! Just my opinion, though

I didn't think sanfran was known for it's sunny days.

 

[Wildebeast]

Thanks for all the input...do any of you know which one of the two schools has better international health opportunities?

 

[wake_o]

i know we're past this, but i just stumbled upon this, the offical guidlines for residency

"Michigan residency is very difficult to establish. A nonresident cannot establish residency by attending school in Michigan, procuring a Michigan driver’s license, voting in Michigan, having relatives other than parents living in Michigan, etc. Michigan residency status for tuition purposes may be achieved in a very limited number of ways, including (but not limited to) a move to Michigan by the student’s parent(s), marrying a Michigan resident who is employed in a career job, or living and working in Michigan for a minimum of one year while not a student"

 

[Wildebeast]

I added a poll to keep this thread alive...also, if you have input on which school has better international health options, i'd appreciate your thoughts

 

[etf]

despite what US News has to say, Michigan isn't in the same league as UCSF. Period.

 

[LittleGuy]

whoooaa, I defenitely wouldn't say that. Michigan has an amazing reputation for both clinical and academic medicine; their grads are known for being especially well-prepared for residency.

 

[diosa428]

Thanks for all the input...do any of you know which one of the two schools has better international health opportunities?

I don't know about Michigan, but UCSF has a LOT of international health opportunites - they are very big on global health. Also, if you're interested in Public Health, UCSF is affiliated with UBerkeley and they have an MPH with an international health track.

 

[golftrippy]

despite what US News has to say, Michigan isn't in the same league as UCSF. Period.

Agreed...are you people drunk? Unless you have a special reason to go to Michigan, UCSF all the way

 

[Messerschmitts]

The Bay Area is the most gorgeous place to live on earth. If you've every lived there you'd know what the rest of us are raving about! The weather, the weather!!! Plus the cultural overload that is SF. UCSF's reputation is peerless and above reproach. The level of competition to get in is equivalent or greater than the "hottest" Ivy med school. I'd go to UCSF over any school in the US.

 

[Fireboy]

I think that Michigan is stronger in international health for several reasons. First of all, it's master's of public health program is more highly regarded than that of Berkeley's. You can read about their global program at

http://www.sph.umich.edu/ghic/

Furthermore, through Michigan's Global Reach program you can plenty of money to do parts of your medical schooling overseas.

http://www.med.umich.edu/medschool/global/students.htm

Also, as a side note, Michigan's facilities and campus are a hell of a lot nicer than UCSF's

 

[ChocolateKiss]

Agreed...are you people drunk? Unless you have a special reason to go to Michigan, UCSF all the way

I disagree. I interviewed at both and much preferred Michigan. UCSF might have a little edge on the research, but Michigan seemed better in every other way to me. I felt like the students at Michigan were much happier. Plus, Michigan is adjacent to the Ugrad campus and the other grad schools, which makes for a much better atmosphere (in my opinion) than UCSF, which is off by itself in the city. At UCSF, I couldn't tell where the campus ended and the city began, but Michigan has a real college feel. Also, Michigan sports can't be beat!

 

[happydays]

Golf,

Do you have any basis for those comments? Have you visited either schools? Applied or interviewed there? The only schools that are in "a league of their own" are Harvard and Hopkins, no doubt. Other than that, all the other top ten schools have amazing everything. Where you go depends entirely on the details, like gut feeling, tuition, campus culture, etc.

 

[Fishsticks]

my vote goes to michigan but im biased cuz im an instater. plus as much as i always say how much i hate the winter i think 19 years of it has made me grow fond of having the seasons

 

[thegenius]

I didn't think sanfran was known for it's sunny days.

Heh, you're right - not known for sunny days. I live in SF now, and I was born and raised in Michigan. Both great schools - I would go to USCF though. My wife doesn't want to move - and I get in-state tuition in CA.

 

[GALLBLADDER]

UCSF!

I don't think you'll be finding a 13th floor anatomy lab with gorgeous views of the Golden Gate Bridge, Golden Gate Park, and the Pacific Ocean in Ann Arbor!



Both schools have excellent programs, though. Maybe second look will help...?

 

[Rafa]

UCSF. If you can't go to Stanford, you might as well go to the other good school in the bay.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

The Bay Area is the most gorgeous place to live on earth. If you've every lived there you'd know what the rest of us are raving about! The weather, the weather!!! Plus the cultural overload that is SF. UCSF's reputation is peerless and above reproach. The level of competition to get in is equivalent or greater than the "hottest" Ivy med school. I'd go to UCSF over any school in the US.

Of course it is also one of the most expensive places in the country too.....you need to take that into account...

 

[DropkickMurphy]

My vote goes to Michigan simply because of the exceedingly high cost of living in SF, which far outweighs any advantage that UCSF might offer to the average medical student.

 

[Zoom-Zoom]

The Bay Area is the most gorgeous place to live on earth. If you've every lived there you'd know what the rest of us are raving about! The weather, the weather!!! Plus the cultural overload that is SF. UCSF's reputation is peerless and above reproach. The level of competition to get in is equivalent or greater than the "hottest" Ivy med school. I'd go to UCSF over any school in the US.

I agree with everything you said. I grew up in SF and love it there. I want to go back so bad! 0_o

 

[DropkickMurphy]

I agree with everything you said. I grew up in SF and love it there. I want to go back so bad! 0_o

I would love to live just outside of SF once I become a physician. I will agree that the area is gorgeous and the people are on the whole a diverse and likeable lot.

 

[Fireboy]

Not that this is entirely relevant, but...

As nice as the San Fran area is, I challenge anyone to name a single US med school with a "campus" as ugly as that of UCSF.

 

[happydays]

wow, it never ceases to amaze me how unwilling people are to put on a coat! It's not like us winter-containing states are asking you to live outside or roll in the snow once you get here.

But both schools are great. Just go where you'll be "happier," whatever that may entail. I wouldn't want a disgruntled classmate anyway.

 

[nikibean]

I'm sure UM is great!

But-
I really like the academic program at UCSF- I think it would work really well for me, should I have the fortune of being accepted. They have an awesome support system for their med students and a lot of advising which works in a way I can understand. I also know a few of the professors and think they're really great people- and I don't know much about Michigan. I also have a family legacy at UCSF and in-state tuition, should I go there.
Plus my family only lives an hour away. My father was treated at Mt Zion at UCSF for cancer, and I loved the hospital and the Osher integrateive center across the way. I know SF like the back of my hand. For me, it's worthwhile, even if cost of living will exceed my tuition.

 

[infiniti]

To the OP, I don't think you can go wrong either way. Having said that, I would pick UCSF over michigan in a heart beat. Why?

San Francisco is a seven by seven mile city, yet its resourses in terms of arts, friendliness, openmindedness, and just landscape is unrivaled. Think of anything you want to do (attend a symphony, hang out at nice clubs, enjoy the hilly (or sloppy depending on what side you're on) landscape) and I can guarantee that you would find it in San Francisco. I am not good at advertising. Just go to google and read about San francisco yourself.

Now to the school. UCSF is a world class institution whose reputation is only rivaled by that of Harvard and Johns Hopkins. I am not saying this without evidence. I interviewed at Harvard and UCSF. My interviewer told me Harvard only worries about Hopkins and UCSF. He said he would choose UCSF over Harvard, were he in my shoes.

That was his opinion but here is my opinion. What sets UCSF apart from other top schools is the atmosphere. People are genuinely happy at UCSF. I didn't believe medical students could be so laid back until I visited UCSF ( I was there for two weeks, so it was impossible that they were pretending. I even pretended to be a student and attended lectures for over a week). You will never have more than 2 hours of lecture per day and you are expected to do other things apart from studying. Exams are not jam packed they are spread out. Grading is Pass or Fail. This is huge. I had enough of the premed cut throat thing. I don't want to compete anymore. I need colleagues, not competition. UCSF embodies this atmosphere because they developed the curriculum being implemented by most med schools in the U.S.


Secondly, the people at UCSF really have a community. It is one thing to have a campus but another to actually have a community. At UCSF, there are opportunities for students and faculty to mingle. It is then no surprise that UCSF has been voted as the best (or maybe second) place to work in the United States (no other institution made this list). Another UCSF afilliated organization made this list. I believe it was Genetech.

My goal in life is to develop into a compassionate physician. I can't think of any other institution that stresses this more than UCSF. Look overseas for example. UCSF is the world authority in terms of AIDS research. Not only are they doing research on vaccination and possible cure for AIDS, they are doing research to see how a possible outcome will not only benefit rich people, but residents of several poor countries in Asia, Africa, europe e.t.c. Being an African, I am well aware of UCSF's involvement in resolving issues (even those that are not medically related) in African nations. Malaria is not a major issue in the U.S. It is however a big problem in Africa, Asia and parts of Europe. Since there is no monetary gain to finding a vaccine, most institution simply don't conduct such research. UCSF (and I have to admit, a few other schools) however is working hard to find a vaccine. There is also work taking into account how such a vaccine would be effectively distributed in the war torn, poverty stricken regions of the world. This to me, is what medicine is all about. I have yet to see other institutions that has so many geniuses involved not only in their work, but other issues that are common to you and I.

Being a black, African guy ( A double minority has someone would say), it is very important for me to be in an environment that I could really call mine. I went to a top prestigious college, did very well and yet I couldn't say that the experience was totally mine. Everything was about class this, class that. I was only a poor African kid and just hated all that stuff.

In francisco, I felt at home. Having grown up in several countries (in Europe, U.S and Africa), I really don't feel comfortable hanging out with an homogenous crowd. I love diversity both externally and internally (if that makes any sense). In my time, I like to learn about other cultures and perhaps pick up more languages. To me, there is no better city to do this than San Francisco.

Finally, the weather. Oh, the weather. I have lived in places that are scorching hot (yes, in Africa), places that are very cold and everything in between. I found San Francisco to be ideal. The weather is not Southern Cali hot, yet it isn't freezing. It is usually between high 50's to low 70's most of the time. The warmest material you will ever need is a light jacket and you can take off your shirt once in a while. And who will dare forget the fog. I love the fog. If you don't like it, you can simply move to other parts of San Francisco. The city has its own micro weather and you can choose to live in the part that suits you the most.

I don't know much about Michigan, so no comments.

(I had no time to check for grammatical error)

 

[almost_there]

Infiniti, I'm glad you liked UCSF so much. I would also choose UCSF, for many of your well-articulated reasons.

However, your post underscores two points:

1. Great programs and opportunities are not restricted to one school alone. I've heard multiple places claim to pioneer the "pass/fail", "cooperation vs. competition" model, Yale being one school with a particularly good claim to that distinction. Johns Hopkins certainly does do intensive malarial research (met an MSTP there who switched his research topic to malaria after travelling and working in Africa). There are a few schools with great international health credentials, and it's up to you (the med student) to create new opportunities when they aren't well formulated. (e.g. if your program doesn't have an MPH or international health program, you can start one, or take a year off to get an MPH somewhere else)

2. What is important to one person (e.g. diversity in culture, language in the surrounding city, or weather) may not be so important to another. We pick the school which is the best fit for us and our interests, and those can and will be different schools.

Good luck on the decisions!

a_t

To the OP, I don't think you can go wrong either way. Having said that, I would pick UCSF over michigan in a heart beat. Why?

San Francisco is a seven by seven mile city, yet its resourses in terms of arts, friendliness, openmindedness, and just landscape is unrivaled. Think of anything you want to do (attend a symphony, hang out at nice clubs, enjoy the hilly (or sloppy depending on what side you're on) landscape) and I can guarantee that you would find it in San Francisco. I am not good at advertising. Just go to google and read about San francisco yourself.

Now to the school. UCSF is a world class institution whose reputation is only rivaled by that of Harvard and Johns Hopkins. I am not saying this without evidence. I interviewed at Harvard and UCSF. My interviewer told me Harvard only worries about Hopkins and UCSF. He said he would choose UCSF over Harvard, were he in my shoes.

That was his opinion but here is my opinion. What sets UCSF apart from other top schools is the atmosphere. People are genuinely happy at UCSF. I didn't believe medical students could be so laid back until I visited UCSF ( I was there for two weeks, so it was impossible that they were pretending. I even pretended to be a student and attended lectures for over a week). You will never have more than 2 hours of lecture per day and you are expected to do other things apart from studying. Exams are not jam packed they are spread out. Grading is Pass or Fail. This is huge. I had enough of the premed cut throat thing. I don't want to compete anymore. I need colleagues, not competition. UCSF embodies this atmosphere because they developed the curriculum being implemented by most med schools in the U.S.


Secondly, the people at UCSF really have a community. It is one thing to have a campus but another to actually have a community. At UCSF, there are opportunities for students and faculty to mingle. It is then no surprise that UCSF has been voted as the best (or maybe second) place to work in the United States (no other institution made this list). Another UCSF afilliated organization made this list. I believe it was Genetech.

My goal in life is to develop into a compassionate physician. I can't think of any other institution that stresses this more than UCSF. Look overseas for example. UCSF is the world authority in terms of AIDS research. Not only are they doing research on vaccination and possible cure for AIDS, they are doing research to see how a possible outcome will not only benefit rich people, but residents of several poor countries in Asia, Africa, europe e.t.c. Being an African, I am well aware of UCSF's involvement in resolving issues (even those that are not medically related) in African nations. Malaria is not a major issue in the U.S. It is however a big problem in Africa, Asia and parts of Europe. Since there is no monetary gain to finding a vaccine, most institution simply don't conduct such research. UCSF (and I have to admit, a few other schools) however is working hard to find a vaccine. There is also work taking into account how such a vaccine would be effectively distributed in the war torn, poverty stricken regions of the world. This to me, is what medicine is all about. I have yet to see other institutions that has so many geniuses involved not only in their work, but other issues that are common to you and I.

Being a black, African guy ( A double minority has someone would say), it is very important for me to be in an environment that I could really call mine. I went to a top prestigious college, did very well and yet I couldn't say that the experience was totally mine. Everything was about class this, class that. I was only a poor African kid and just hated all that stuff.

In francisco, I felt at home. Having grown up in several countries (in Europe, U.S and Africa), I really don't feel comfortable hanging out with an homogenous crowd. I love diversity both externally and internally (if that makes any sense). In my time, I like to learn about other cultures and perhaps pick up more languages. To me, there is no better city to do this than San Francisco.

Finally, the weather. Oh, the weather. I have lived in places that are scorching hot (yes, in Africa), places that are very cold and everything in between. I found San Francisco to be ideal. The weather is not Southern Cali hot, yet it isn't freezing. It is usually between high 50's to low 70's most of the time. The warmest material you will ever need is a light jacket and you can take off your shirt once in a while. And who will dare forget the fog. I love the fog. If you don't like it, you can simply move to other parts of San Francisco. The city has its own micro weather and you can choose to live in the part that suits you the most.

I don't know much about Michigan, so no comments.

(I had no time to check for grammatical error)

 

[thegenius]

Infiniti, I'm glad you liked UCSF so much. I would also choose UCSF, for many of your well-articulated reasons.

However, your post underscores two points:

1. Great programs and opportunities are not restricted to one school alone. I've heard multiple places claim to pioneer the "pass/fail", "cooperation vs. competition" model, Yale being one school with a particularly good claim to that distinction. Johns Hopkins certainly does do intensive malarial research (met an MSTP there who switched his research topic to malaria after travelling and working in Africa). There are a few schools with great international health credentials, and it's up to you (the med student) to create new opportunities when they aren't well formulated. (e.g. if your program doesn't have an MPH or international health program, you can start one, or take a year off to get an MPH somewhere else)

2. What is important to one person (e.g. diversity in culture, language in the surrounding city, or weather) may not be so important to another. We pick the school which is the best fit for us and our interests, and those can and will be different schools.

Good luck on the decisions!

a_t

I agree. Suppose that God took the UMichigan and UCSF campuses and staff/faculty and swapped them. So 'UCSF' now had all of the professors and facilities that Michigan has, and vice versa.

I bet that the large majority of people who choose UCSF in the first place would stay in California and attend the new, swapped in UMichigan campus. Meaning, they are choosing San Francisco or Ann Arbor because of location.

The point is, there is very little that distinguishes these schools. Supposed excellence at this level is mostly fabricated by hype. There is very little that materially separates these two schools.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Also, Michigan sports can't be beat!

OH, they can be beat alright!

Sat, Sep 3 Northern Illinois W 33-17 --
Sat, Sep 10 (20) Notre Dame L 10-17 --
Sat, Sep 17 Eastern Michigan W 55-0 --
Sat, Sep 24 at Wisconsin L 20-23 --
Sat, Oct 1 at (11) Michigan State W 34-31 --
Sat, Oct 8 Minnesota L 20-23 --
Sat, Oct 15 (8) Penn State W 27-25 --
Sat, Oct 22 at Iowa W 23-20 --
Sat, Oct 29 at (21) Northwestern W 33-17 --
Sat, Nov 12 Indiana W 41-14 --
Sat, Nov 19 (9) Ohio State L 21-25 --



Still, when was the last time UCSF played in a bowl game?

 

[OldPsychDoc]

I agree. Suppose that God took the UMichigan and UCSF campuses and staff/faculty and swapped them. So 'UCSF' now had all of the professors and facilities that Michigan has, and vice versa.

I bet that the large majority of people who choose UCSF in the first place would stay in California and attend the new, swapped in UMichigan campus. Meaning, they are choosing San Francisco or Ann Arbor because of location.

The point is, there is very little that distinguishes these schools. Supposed excellence at this level is mostly fabricated by hype. There is very little that materially separates these two schools.

Very well said.

 

[beefballs]

you cant get in-stateafter a year. you have to have fsmily or work(schhool doesnt count). the state is pretty tight. im gld im a resident


but i would say umich, seems more reputable, and has amazing faculties

umich is not more reputable than ucsf

 

[infiniti]

I agree with your posts. What's good for the goose is not always good for the gander.

 

[ambaduchi]

double post, my bad

 

[ambaduchi]

but i would say umich, seems more reputable, and has amazing faculties

really?
i'm not saying this facetiously, i just didn't know. i know u michigan is a kick-ass school but i guess i'm thinking of people i know currently attending ucsf who actually chose it with stanford and harvard acceptances in hand. and on the residency front people choose between there and mgh, brigham etc regularly.
is u of michigan like that? (i'm really asking genuinely. i know little about the school, am cali centered, didn't apply there)

 

[Fireboy]

Perhaps the reason that UCSF is mistakenly perceived as more elite than UMich is due to the fact that there are 36 million residents of California and only 10 million residents Michigan.

With more than 3.5 times the population of Michigan, California, one can reasonably suppose, has a proportionally greater amount of premedical students. Thus the demand to enter the best public, in-state school with significant tuition benefits will be much greater in California. This is reflected by the AAMC, which reports that there were 4,288 Californians applying to medical school in 2005, compared to only 1,334 Michiganers. California produces, by far, the most premedical applicants in the entire country; it is no wonder that private institutions like Harvard supposedly worry about the drawing power of its top public school.

I think it is not unreasonable to conclude that the massive difference in population scales contributes heftily to the elite aura surrounding UCSF. In fact, this may be one of the most important differences between the reputations of these two schools.

If, as another poster suggested, the locations of these two schools were miraculously swapped and UMich were to be located in the Bay area, then no doubt its reputation would benefit significantly from the increased demand for admissions. Likewise, UCSF would most likely suffer from being in Michigan.

If one is honest in evaluating this, it seems quite clear that it is mere demographic happenstance that contributes to UCSF’s ostensibly greater reputation.

 

[scott858]

When I was at the Hopkins School of Public Health, waiting to hear back from UCSF after my interview, I asked several of my professors what they thought of UCSF. The first thing that happens when you ask a a doctor about UCSF is A HUGE SMILE replaces their face. Every single person I spoke to said the same thing, UCSF is as good as a institution can be and they are just as good as Hopkins or Harvard. Many of the faculty members at Hopkins want or wanted to be at UCSF. Another way to compare schools is to look at the residency match list, and UCSF's list DESTROYS umich!

Also, you're not going to get someone who is at UMICH to say UCSF is better so just disregard their comments.

 

[happydays]

Perhaps the reason that UCSF is mistakenly perceived as more elite than UMich is due to the fact that there are 36 million residents of California and only 10 million residents Michigan.

With more than 3.5 times the population of Michigan, California, one can reasonably suppose, has a proportionally greater amount of premedical students. Thus the demand to enter the best public, in-state school with significant tuition benefits will be much greater in California. This is reflected by the AAMC, which reports that there were 4,288 Californians applying to medical school in 2005, compared to only 1,334 Michiganers. California produces, by far, the most premedical applicants in the entire country; it is no wonder that private institutions like Harvard supposedly worry about the drawing power of its top public school.

I think it is not unreasonable to conclude that the massive difference in population scales contributes heftily to the elite aura surrounding UCSF. In fact, this may be one of the most important differences between the reputations of these two schools.

If, as another poster suggested, the locations of these two schools were miraculously swapped and UMich were to be located in the Bay area, then no doubt its reputation would benefit significantly from the increased demand for admissions. Likewise, UCSF would most likely suffer from being in Michigan.

If one is honest in evaluating this, it seems quite clear that it is mere demographic happenstance that contributes to UCSF’s ostensibly greater reputation.

Very fair interpretation. Props.

 

[infiniti]

Fireboy,
I agree that U michigan may be as good as other top schools in terms of the quality of medical education. American schools have to meet certain standards. By the virtue of meeting these standards, you could argue that quality isn't that much diiferent. Research on the other hand is another thing. UCSF is a research powerhouse. Talk to researchers (from anywhere) and they will tell you that UCSF seem to be dominating the scientific forefront (in the past 10 years). Go to scientific journals, conferences and such and ask people to mention top 2 or 3 schools for research. You will definitely hear about UCSF. In terms of NIH funds, UCSF is fourth in the nation. Given the size of UCSF (much much smaller than Hopkins and Harvard), It becomes obvious that they get more funds per faculty than most schools. NIH funds should be correlated with faculty size. Only then can you begin to appreciate just how much UCSF gets from the NIH.

Think about the controversial stem cell issue. UCSF is the leading institution in the country right now. There are currently only 3 sites where human embryonic stem cells can be specifically manipulated. The schools are of course UCSF, Harvard and well you can fill in the rest.

Michigan by the virtue of its research ranking could definitely be considered as one of the big boys. I would however argue that it isn't in the same league as UCSF, Harvard, and Hopkins when it comes to research. Think about nobel prizes (ones recently awarded and others certain to come soon) and several UCSF faculty comes to mind (not mine but other well known scientists).

My whole point is that UCSF's percieved greatness in research is not just due to the vast amount of Californians (as you stated). It is due to the quality of work they do over there. I have talked to editors in some of the worlds respected journals and believe me, UCSF is a household name . Get a copy of Science, and Nature (AMerica's most prestigious scientific journals) and I guarantee you UCSF will be mentioned many, many times. I think it is a fact that UCSF is considered to be more elite than Michigan in the scientific world. You can even ask scientists at U of M. Even better, go to UCSF website and read about their contributions to science in the current decade.

 

[happydays]

Fireboy,
I agree that U michigan may be as good as other top schools in terms of the quality of medical education. American schools have to meet certain standards. By the virtue of meeting these standards, you could argue that quality isn't that much diiferent. Research on the other hand is another thing. UCSF is a research powerhouse. Talk to researchers (from anywhere) and they will tell you that UCSF seem to be dominating the scientific forefront (in the past 10 years). Go to scientific journals, conferences and such and ask people to mention top 2 or 3 schools for research. You will definitely hear about UCSF. In terms of NIH funds, UCSF is fourth in the nation. Given the size of UCSF (much much smaller than Hopkins and Harvard), It becomes obvious that they get more funds per faculty than most schools. NIH funds should be correlated with faculty size. Only then can you begin to appreciate just how much UCSF gets from the NIH.

Think about the controversial stem cell issue. UCSF is the leading institution in the country right now. There are currently only 3 sites where human embryonic stem cells can be specifically manipulated. The schools are of course UCSF, Harvard and well you can fill in the rest.

Michigan by the virtue of its research ranking could definitely be considered as one of the big boys. I would however argue that it isn't in the same league as UCSF, Harvard, and Hopkins when it comes to research. Think about nobel prizes (ones recently awarded and others certain to come soon) and several UCSF faculty comes to mind (not mine but other well known scientists).

My whole point is that UCSF's percieved greatness in research is not just due to the vast amount of Californians (as you stated). It is due to the quality of work they do over there. I have talked to editors in some of the worlds respected journals and believe me, UCSF is a household name . Get a copy of Science, and Nature (AMerica's most prestigious scientific journals) and I guarantee you UCSF will be mentioned many, many times. I think it is a fact that UCSF is considered to be more elite than Michigan in the scientific world. You can even ask scientists at U of M. Even better, go to UCSF website and read about their contributions to science in the current decade.

Oh, so now somehow going to med school is all about the research there?

 

[happydays]

When I was at the Hopkins School of Public Health, waiting to hear back from UCSF after my interview, I asked several of my professors what they thought of UCSF. The first thing that happens when you ask a a doctor about UCSF is A HUGE SMILE replaces their face. Every single person I spoke to said the same thing, UCSF is as good as a institution can be and they are just as good as Hopkins or Harvard. Many of the faculty members at Hopkins want or wanted to be at UCSF. Another way to compare schools is to look at the residency match list, and UCSF's list DESTROYS umich!

Also, you're not going to get someone who is at UMICH to say UCSF is better so just disregard their comments.

Yeah, and disregard any comments from californians because they're not going to say anything bad about UCSF.

Also, if UCSF and Hopkins or Harvard are on the same level, would you choose UCSF over the two H's (if accepted to all 3)?

 

[DrRads101]

Another way to compare schools is to look at the residency match list, and UCSF's list DESTROYS umich!

Why, because most people at UMich wanted to stay in and matched at Michigan or somewhere near their family?

I mean come on. Besides being COMPLETELY subjective in quality, I wish pre-meds would stop looking at "match lists" to compare schools. They are totally NOT comparable because the class make-ups are not comparable, and where the class WANTS to match is not comparable. You can't blame someone for not matching at UCSF or Harvard if they didn't apply there. There is something called geographical preference you know, ESPECIALLY when you are older, graduated from med school, and want to start looking for a place to raise a family. I'm willing to bet a much more significant portion of UMich's class is from and wants to stay in the midwest, and I'm willing to bet that's where they applied, and that's where they matched.

 

[Flopotomist]

Both schools offer a great education and have great match lists - the cost issue I don't really know about, but for me, the question would come down to where do you want to live for four years?

 

[Fireboy]

First of all, UMich has one of only three NIH-funded human embryonic stem cell research centers in the US (the others are at Wisonsin and Washington). Furthermore, its building a new $10 million center devoted solely to stem cell research.

Also, I don't think anyone judges an institution based solely on NIH funds. If they did, Harvard, which ranks 24th in the nation in NIH awards (it really does... look it up) would never be the consensus number one. Researchers from both schools are widely published, so I do not think that noting that UCSF researchers have been published in journals is entirely persuasive.

Further, just because one has supposedly experienced hype regarding UCSF at Hopkins or Harvard is merely incidental and anecdotal. It does not contribute significantly to this issue and here's why... If such anecdetotal remarks were to be considered seriously, then there is another such well known anecdetotal "fact" that would likewise need to be given more weight because it is even more commonplace and it is this: the mere fact that it is widely known that UCSF is never routinely mentioned as being in the same league as Harvard or Hopkins is clear enough evidence that it is not.

The point is... since UCSF is acknowledged by most reasonable people to not be in the same league as Harvard and Hopkins (and this, I think approaches consensus), then the choice between UCSF and UMich... schools of very similiar resources and reputation... is merely a personal decision based onto individual inclinations and the particularities of the different schools. To contend that UCSF is so vastly superior is just hyperbole. Therefore, as I have mentioned previously, since California has many more pre-meds than does Michigan, it no doubt follows that there results the appearance of UCSF being much more in demand, popular, elite, or what have you. But it would be much more honest to recognize this for the hype it is

 

[scott858]

First off, I'm not a pre-med.

Umich may have a federally funded stem cell program, but guess what, they can only work on GW Bush's sucky embryonic cells. Nobody would ever put those damn things in a human, so goodluck with your embryonic stem cell research umich. Also, nobody at umich can use embryonic stem cells other then GW Bush's or they lose all federal funding for stem cell research. BTW, the California stem cell institute is located NEXT DOOR to the new UCSF Research building and $10million is nothing compared to the $Billion/yr california has put towards stem cells. Ultimately, anyone who wants to do embryonic stem cell stuff either has to move California or New Jersey or private industry.

I provided my anecdotal evidence so you umich people could go out and try this yourselves, you'll get the same response, UCSF is second to none. Also, I guess you're calling people at Hopkins unreasonable b/c they felt that UCSF was in fact just as good as Hopkins. And these anecdotal people included 3 different DEPARTMENT HEADS who were also Editor's of prominant journals.

As for the idea that you can't compare match list's, that's ridiculous. You also can't use the argument that maybe all the umich people wanted to stay at umich and actually got their first choice b/c...people are often limited by what they perceive are their options. It is very easy to stay at your home institution, expecially if past students haven't fared well by getting into some of the best programs, i.e. UCSF, Hopkins, MGH, Penn, UCLA, Stanford, Duke etc. So when you umich people apply to residency, and find your dean's saying, "well we haven't historically gotten a lot of people into the best programs, but you can stay here and we're pretty good." This will influence your match list rankings and the possibility of going to Hopkins, UCSF, MGH will seem a lot tougher then you thought. You will then see how people in the academic medicine world perceive UCSF, just wait for residency interviews when you get a big fat rejection pre-interview and you see a lot of your classmates wishing that they could attend UCSF for residency.