umm, annoying?

[anxiousnadd]

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Maybe this is just the slacker in me coming out, but on last night's shift when one of the assistant residency directors was working, four of the M4's decided to show up "coincidentally" to work. So am I in the wrong for not trying to capitalize on this, too, or did I do the right thing by getting annoyed and deciding that I'd rather not show up to a shift that I wasn't supposed to work anyways?

In other words, what's with the gunners?????? One of the reasons I despised surgery was due to the d-baggery (excuse my French).

Slightly, no very, annoyed.

 

[JulyMorning]

Unless I got paged for a really interesting case, there's no way I would be in when I don't have to be.
Tools are tools; nothing you can do; just observe from sidelines how four brown-nosers are burning out before they even get to residency... which I find mildly amusing (I guess it's the cynic in me).

 

[Seville]

same thing happened to me on one of my away externships. I had one shift scheduled with one of the guys who is a pretty well known name in EM, and whose letter everyone is trying to get. I walked in for my shift and there were 3 other students there-not scheduled-just there. It was absolutely impossible to get any one on one time with him. I just decided it wasn't worth it and asked someone else from the program to do my SLOR. Talk about annoying though, especially when all those students are from that school, could have worked with him at any time, and you are doing an away so it's much harder.

Ah well.

 

[roja]

At my institution, anyone who showed up for a shift unscheduled (with anyone, but particularly so obvious as one with one of the APD's and particularly the PD) would be sent home IMMEDIATELY and issues of unproffesionalism would be discussed with those students. Issues of teamwork would also likely be raised.

 

[Seville]

At my institution, anyone who showed up for a shift unscheduled (with anyone, but particularly so obvious as one with one of the APD's and particularly the PD) would be sent home IMMEDIATELY and issues of unproffesionalism would be discussed with those students. Issues of teamwork would also likely be raised.

That's awesome. I wish they would have done that where I was. I asked one of the students what she was doing there since her shift didn't start until 5 hours later and she straight up told me she was gunning for the letter. The thing that was really annoying about the whole thing was there were then so many of us that I found myself with just a handful of patients all night, with a lot of sitting around waiting to present, and no other patients to be seen. There really wasn't any way to "shine".

 

[anxiousnadd]

roja,

what institution are you at? PM me as I am interested in any institution that fosters teamwork and professionalism! not to say that this hospital doesn't though since i'm not so sure how those students were dealt with (if at all).

on another note, it's just really frustrating when none of your shifts are scheduled with any of the program directors and on your days off, where we have the option of doing additional shifts, none of the PDs are working! so then you have gunners and those that just want to get the job done and learn where the latter ends up getting the shaft (or so it seems)! i've never been a gunner, nor will i ever be. it just seems 3/4 of the students here are! 😕

 

[Phledge]

I'm not a gunner either (though I looked like one compared to my classmates who aren't interested in EM and just had to do the rotation). I take solace in knowing that PD's know a lot more about what's going on in the department than just what they personally witness; if you work hard, know your stuff, and get along with others they'll hear about you. And if they don't, then either the atmosphere is not open enough for that kind of communication, or the PD wants personally delivered brown nosing. I wouldn't be interested in either type of situation.

I have every intention of setting up a short appointment with the PD's whose programs I'll be subinterning in, just to let hir know that I'm hoping for a letter but understand that hir time is very valuable and not something that they can waste on watching me strut my stuff.

 

[Flopotomist]

I gotta believe that program directors (who were once students just like us) can see through that ass-kissing BS pretty easily. I would be surprised if the net negatives from such behaviors were not universally detrimental to these gunners.

 

[roja]

Yes, it is easily seen through. And often, PD's do not work as many shifts. Plus the various APD's will have different roles at different institutions.

from a MS standpoint, most PD's put significant trust in thier clerkship directors and thier opinion is most important. And most clerkship directors know which faculty give the most consistantly accurate evaluations and those that dont.

Showing up to gun for a letter is incredibly transparent. Thankfully, out of all the students that I have had rotating through my institution, I haven't seen this happen. But as APD and DUE, I would pull aside any student who did and it would not reflect well when grades and SLOR writting time came.

The best way to get a good grade and SLOR is to be professional, comign to work when you are supposed to, working hard and being a good team player.

 

[pagemmapants]

It happens everywhere, unfortunately. There are clear rules for us about "showing up" when we're not scheduled, but unfortunately gunning events still occur. Sometimes there are 2 students scheduled in the same pod, sometimes the med student from the other pod shows up for "an interesting case". Sometimes they even gun when there are no attendings around!

Best one that happened to me was when we were putting a plaster cast on someone with a distal radius fxr. The ortho 2 was wrapping the guy with bias and I already had a few strips of tape out to finish the job. The 2 started looking around for tape and my co-student literally snapped to attention, LEEEEAAAANED across the patient's bed from the other side, brandishing his roll of silk with (I thought) rather unnecessary enthusiasm.

Seriously. Who guns with tape? 🙄

 

[nymbarra]

It's been two years since I've been through the process, but as a 2nd year resident, here are my two cents:

1. If there are more med students than residents during a shift, that generally means more work for the residents. This is not usually a problem at Emory because only one MS is assigned per shift to a 3rd year. If you don't know what to do with your free time, read!

2. At Emory, students are paired with a faculty mentor during their month. While they may not work with them every shift, the faculty mentors help students with readings/questions as well as get to know the students. I think most times they write the SLOR--and I would imagine having a letter from someone who knows you well has more weight than from someone with whom you've interacted briefly.

3. Even if the PD writes the SLOR, he or she will solicit feedback from the faculty and residents with whom the student has interacted. In fact, I would imagine a PD SLOR is based primarily upon their fellow faculty and residents' feedback, since so many are asked to write the SLOR.

4. Last year during the interview season, all residents (interns to 3rd years) were asked for feedback about students. Most of the feedback is good...but the whole process starts with putting a name on your face. Just a simple quick introduction lets us know that you are sane, smart, and hard-working future co-residents! While this applies only to a minority of students who do not do this- please introduce yourself to everyone on your shifts--especially the residents.

This may be intimidating but realize that everyone has been through the whole 4th year subI process. You're there to learn as well as to work hard. Evidence of both will lead to great feedback. Also remember that it's as much your opportunity to impress as an opportunity for the program to recruit.

So, to sum up largely-unsolicited advice:

- Introduce yourself to everyone on your shifts
- Be proactive and independent within your comfort level
- Practice presentations and run through differentials and plans with residents
- Learn from not only attendings/residents but also nurses, techs, etc.
- Help when you can
- Work hard but have fun...get out and enjoy the city!

 

[Cerberus]

This happened to me as well on my externship. I was kind of peeved because there were already more people on than needed to be and it was hard to pick up patients without an extra student (who wasn't even rotating that month!)

 

[Sheerstress]

"Even if the PD writes the SLOR, he or she will solicit feedback from the faculty and residents with whom the student has interacted. In fact, I would imagine a PD SLOR is based primarily upon their fellow faculty and residents' feedback, since so many are asked to write the SLOR."

That's what happens at a lot of places. In the case of the department chair, he or she may only have a few shifts a month, and it would be very difficult to get in any good one-on-one time.