unc vs. duke

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dukeorunc2012

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Hi all,

First time poster, just wanted as much insight as possible. I would be out of state for my first year at unc. I'm on the fence for this one and can't sway one way or the other.

Although Duke is ranked higher, has a more flexible, innovative curriculum, how can one justify the costs of Duke (tuition ~$41k/year) over UNC (last 3 years tuition ~12k/yr)?

Also, I'm interested in the MPH option at UNC, which I could do while attending Duke my third year as well.

Gratzi,

dukeorunc2012

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Hi all,

First time poster, just wanted as much insight as possible. I would be out of state for my first year at unc. I'm on the fence for this one and can't sway one way or the other.

Although Duke is ranked higher, has a more flexible, innovative curriculum, how can one justify the costs of Duke (tuition ~$41k/year) over UNC (last 3 years tuition ~12k/yr)?

Also, I'm interested in the MPH option at UNC, which I could do while attending Duke my third year as well.

Gratzi,

dukeorunc2012

If you are planning on coming to second look for Duke, you should ask around because I know there are a good number of my classmates who had to make that decision. Good luck to you and congrats on the acceptances!
 
I'm a UNC undergrad, and while Duke (outside of basketball) is great and all, Durham is a **** hole.

Keep in mind however, that in a few years, UNC is about to undergo a huge expansion to try to address the shortage in doctors in NC. The school is going to be huge, with first year class sizes of over 200 students.
 
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I'm a UNC undergrad, and while Duke (outside of basketball) is great and all, Durham is a **** hole.

Dude, you can still live in Chapel Hill if you hate Durham so much. It's not that far. Durham is cheaper to live in though.

Go to UNC if you want to spend 2 years in class. Go to Duke if you want to spend one year in class.
 
Dude, you can still live in Chapel Hill if you hate Durham so much. It's not that far. Durham is cheaper to live in though.

Go to UNC if you want to spend 2 years in class. Go to Duke if you want to spend one year in class.

True. I've even lived in Raleigh while working at Duke.

But doesn't change the fact that Durham is sketch as ****.
 
True. I've even lived in Raleigh while working at Duke.

But doesn't change the fact that Durham is sketch as ****.

durham isnt THAT bad. it's not great, but honestly, i've enjoyed it. plus its really easy to hang out in chapel hill, if that's your thing.
 
Hi all,

First time poster, just wanted as much insight as possible. I would be out of state for my first year at unc. I'm on the fence for this one and can't sway one way or the other.

Although Duke is ranked higher, has a more flexible, innovative curriculum, how can one justify the costs of Duke (tuition ~$41k/year) over UNC (last 3 years tuition ~12k/yr)?

Also, I'm interested in the MPH option at UNC, which I could do while attending Duke my third year as well.

Gratzi,

dukeorunc2012

Congrats on being accepted to 2 great schools. Doesn't Duke only make you pay 3 years of tuition if you do research during your third year? Depending on the total numbers, I'd pick Duke if it weren't too cost prohibitive.

What about financial aid? I knew a guy who got a pretty awesome financial aid package

You can't really go wrong with this decision.
 
Congrats on being accepted to 2 great schools. Doesn't Duke only make you pay 3 years of tuition if you do research during your third year? Depending on the total numbers, I'd pick Duke if it weren't too cost prohibitive.

What about financial aid? I knew a guy who got a pretty awesome financial aid package

You can't really go wrong with this decision.

No, you still have to pay Duke tuition for all four years. You can get grants/scholarships third year though, which are generally up to $30k, plus Duke gives pretty good financial aid, which helps.
 
Both schools are good, but Duke really sucked in NCAA basketball this year, so I think you should goto UNC.
 
Both schools are good but Duke has a certain cachet that UNC does not have. If the name on the diploma is important for you, go to Duke. UNC at the end is just another state university.

The bad news is that Durham really, really really sucks. You do not have to live there though although living in another nearby town is not that convenient.
 
Ok, yes Durham isn't the greatest town ever. But we're comparing it to CHAPEL HILL, not NYC. They're 15-20 mins away from each other, and not that different. Yes, Chapel Hill is nicer, but all things considered, I don't think location is a big factor in this decision given the proximity of the campuses. Besides, what do I do in my free time as a med student? I sleep - in my apartment, which is very nice and quite affordable. I eat - there are both restaurants AND supermarkets in Durham. I watch movies - there are both movie theaters and several blockbusters in Durham. I go to bars - there are some good bars in Durham, bars in Chapel Hill are easily accessible, and Raleigh isn't that far. Other than that? Beach is 3 hours, Mountains are 3 hours, from both CH and Durham. Or I hang out by my pool, in my very nice, very affordable apartment complex.

It's not that big of a deal.
 
Dukes name is sexier, NC is nothing to quaff at either. I would choose duke, just because the buildings are soo cool. lol
 
Yeah, I'm not getting why people say that Durham is awful. Is it because there are poor people that can't afford to live in brand new shiny homes, but instead have to make due by maintaining what's already there? If so, you better cross off Boston, NYC, Philly, Baltimore, DC, Pittsburgh, Richmond, Chicago, Miami, Houston, Dallas, St. Louis, Los Angeles, San Diego, San Francisco, Seattle, Portland, Minneapolis, etc. Is it because there is some gang activity in the area? (Then repeat the list of cities above... echo again for violent crime, etc etc.)

Durham is not a big shiny city. It will not be the setting for the next spin-off of Sex and the City. However, if you like good affordable housing, a diversity of restaurants, the arts, music, and close by clubs, etc then you can live in Durham. If you like outdoors stuff then Durham is great because so many great outdoors places are available within a few minutes to less than half a day's drive. Having spent years around Baltimore and DC, I would much rather trust my safety to Durham.

Hate Duke for the basketball team--that I'm fine with. But don't slander a place that is home to some 200,000+ people who are trying to make their lives here. People pour their lives into this place, just like many other cities.
 
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I've been at Duke and in Durham for 7+ years...man, I must have really bad taste to want to stick around here.😕

If you have to pay OOS for one year for UNC, your tuition over 4 years may very well be similar since you can get a scholarship for much of 3rd year's cost. UNC is a great school and a great value, but honestly I'd definitely pay a little more to go to Duke. Plus, 2 years of basic science class must royally suck.
 
I've been at Duke and in Durham for 7+ years...man, I must have really bad taste to want to stick around here.😕

If you have to pay OOS for one year for UNC, your tuition over 4 years may very well be similar since you can get a scholarship for much of 3rd year's cost. UNC is a great school and a great value, but honestly I'd definitely pay a little more to go to Duke. Plus, 2 years of basic science class must royally suck.

Thanks for all the input so far.

How common is it for students to get a scohlarship for 3rd year research? Do they only compete amongst Duke 3rd years or is there a nation-wide applicant pool?

Anyone else have any thoughts on the two schools?
 
I can't speak for Duke, because I didn't even bother applying there, however I am super excited to be attending UNC this fall. I guess it all depends on what factors will make you happiest, aside from just tuition, because for me, Carolina is such a fit that I would happily pay Duke tuition to attend (thankfully, I don't though!)

Everyone I met at second look this past weekend seemed very driven, yet laid-back and social. I don't anticipate many "gunners". The faculty seemed very much in touch with the students, and tried to make med school as bearable as possible. There are tons of research options available, both at UNC and away at other institutions (including Duke). And as you mentioned, we also have a very strong school of public health if you're interested in an MPH. I also really like the fact that the medical school is attached to the undergraduate campus.

Honestly, both schools are great, but have completely different personalities.
 
So I'll write a little more now that I'm done delivering babies (placentas, really). I'm currently a 2nd year at Duke and my boyfriend is a 2nd year at UNC, so I'll give you my thoughts on both but remember that my comments about UNC are secondhand.

Pros about Duke:
-one year basic science
-early rotations + 3 electives in that year mean less pressure to decide on future profession quickly and more exposure
-full year of research or dual degree (you mentioned MPH) make you more competitive for residency
-take step 1 anytime your 3rd year
-you see the craziest **** because people come from ALL OVER the country to be treated here. and that's pretty awesome.
-administration is super helpful and caring; advisory dean's system is great (at least the concept)
-cheap housing
-good people

Pros about UNC:
-more laid back students in general
-more traditional curriculum if that's your thing. They do learn more details than we do first year, but you get it eventually anyway.
-much more emphasis on primary care if you're interested in that
-see more of rural NC (though I'm not sure this is really a pro...)
-hospital with a burn center

Cons of Duke:
-more stressful environment during the first year-- however, if you don't get honors during that year, who cares? It really doesn't matter anyway, so first year is really only how stressful you make it
-maybe you'd prefer doing basic sciences in two years?
-little emphasis on primary care
-more expensive on paper, but remember there is good FA and scholarship opportunities during 3rd year

Cons of UNC:
-admin is less responsive to student input. This year, the current 2nd years were told they were thinking of cutting out a couple weeks of elective time to extend the fam med rotation (in addition to already having an outpatient IM rotation). The class threw a fit. Instead of listening to them and saying "ok maybe we'll do what the students want," they just decided to avoid the firestorm and just start it with the current MS1s. So that will be part of your curriculum now.
-Bondurant Hall is the really nice med school building...that they never get to use. It's more for the PT/nurses/etc for some reason.
-some blocks are taught very well, others not so much

My boyfriend had to decide between Duke and UNC and chose UNC for the financial reasons (he's in-state) and because he didn't like the nontraditional curriculum of Duke. Despite the cons (which are all things he has complained about), he's very happy with his decision and would make the same one again.

I hope this helps some. In the end, I would go with what place YOU think you would do better and be happier at (especially consider the curriculum differences here). Really, the financial differences may very well be minimal when it's all said and done. good luck 🙂
 
I agree with what Mr. Burns has said. Just be careful to not make your decision based on the stereotypes put forward by others. It is probably fair to say that UNC is a little more laid back than Duke, but that is the firm extent of that statement. People are still really nice at Duke and your classmates will be competing with themselves and not trying to undercut you at all. Over 90% of the medical faculty are *extremely* approachable. The difference in focus between primary care and medical leadership/specialty care is probably the biggest thing between UNC and Duke besides the actual curriculum structure.
 
Go with Duke. Duke's tuition is higher (total 100k over four years), but the school is well financed and many students get terrific FA packages. Most students who do research also get scholarships for 3rd year (30k). Duke name, rotations earlier, and a year to do research or a 2nd degree. Duke students who do the MPH at UNC do it in 4 yrs (saving 1 year) and pay no UNC MPH tuition.
 
If I were in you're shoes, I'd probably choose Duke. Its one of the few schools that I would actually say is worth it to attend over your cheapest option (state school usually). Getting the preclinical BS out of the way early is HUGE. I would probably have sold my soul for that. Also the year of research is key if you are considering something competitive. Plus, its got the Duke name.

Many moons ago, I dated a girl from Durham whose father was a professor / dean at Duke SOM. If my cranial contents consisted of more than 2 neurons held together by a spirochete, I'd be a Duke M2 right now. But I dumped her. Damn.
 
Many moons ago, I dated a girl from Durham whose father was a professor / dean at Duke SOM. If my cranial contents consisted of more than 2 neurons held together by a spirochete, I'd be a Duke M2 right now. But I dumped her. Damn.

What kind of dean was he??? Advisory, associate dean for something, dean of the whole med school???
 
according to the 2008-2009 msar, the average debt for a 2006 graduating student in the two schools was:

duke - $84,902
unc - $83,745

like people said, duke has a very generous financial aid office, so you have a good chance of getting a sweet deal from them.

i think the duke name, its curriculum, and the opportunities it provides should push you to attend that school. of course, you have to feel like the school is right for you. i know unc's second look weekend has passed, but duke's is this weekend, so go there and see if you like the other students that also got in.
 
according to the 2008-2009 msar, the average debt for a 2006 graduating student in the two schools was:

duke - $84,902
unc - $83,745
ehh, this is a bit skewed. Duke's numbers are a bit lower than they otherwise would be because they give out several scholarships to URM students and because some students' families pay for school. However, the latter is the case anywhere you go. Anyway, just wait until you get your FA packages and then see what the numbers are. Just keep in mind that if you do decide you want to get an MPH and you go to UNC, that extra year of school is essentially deducting from your salary that you would be making if you just did it during your third year at Duke.

And one misunderstanding that I should clarify that someone mentioned...if you do the MPH during 3rd year, you DO pay UNC tuition but you pay the in-state tuition, which I think is $6Kish.
 
And one misunderstanding that I should clarify that someone mentioned...if you do the MPH during 3rd year, you DO pay UNC tuition but you pay the in-state tuition, which I think is $6Kish.

Actually, Duke will pay instate tuition to UNC for the MPH for up to something like 10 students. But you have to have established NC residency by then because Duke will only pay instate tuition. However, you DO have to pay Duke tuition your third year, no matter where you go or what you do.
 
Actually, Duke will pay instate tuition to UNC for the MPH for up to something like 10 students. But you have to have established NC residency by then because Duke will only pay instate tuition. However, you DO have to pay Duke tuition your third year, no matter where you go or what you do.
Ah that's right, I got it mixed up. So there you have it.
 
Cons of UNC:
-admin is less responsive to student input. This year, the current 2nd years were told they were thinking of cutting out a couple weeks of elective time to extend the fam med rotation (in addition to already having an outpatient IM rotation). The class threw a fit. Instead of listening to them and saying "ok maybe we'll do what the students want," they just decided to avoid the firestorm and just start it with the current MS1s. So that will be part of your curriculum now.
-some blocks are taught very well, others not so much

Just a quick reply to these two points
to the first: the reason that was such a huge deal is because it really is the FIRST TIME as a UNC Med student that I felt the administration really didn't care what the students had to say. Generally the administration is VERY receptive to students comments and spent $250K to reopen Berryhill mostly on student outrcy.

to the second: um . . . this is the case everywhere. Every school is going to have good and bad blocks. For first year 3/4 blocks are fantastically taught and have been pretty much perfected even though the curriculum was completely changed less than 4 years ago. To be honest, I'd bet the top ranked schools have the worst teachers as here all the great teachers are not researchers. Generally research prowess is inversely proportional to teaching ability.

And I can't say enough about the students here. Gunnerism is simply not socially tolerated in our class.
 
Just a quick reply to these two points
to the first: the reason that was such a huge deal is because it really is the FIRST TIME as a UNC Med student that I felt the administration really didn't care what the students had to say. Generally the administration is VERY receptive to students comments and spent $250K to reopen Berryhill mostly on student outrcy.

to the second: um . . . this is the case everywhere. Every school is going to have good and bad blocks. For first year 3/4 blocks are fantastically taught and have been pretty much perfected even though the curriculum was completely changed less than 4 years ago. To be honest, I'd bet the top ranked schools have the worst teachers as here all the great teachers are not researchers. Generally research prowess is inversely proportional to teaching ability.

And I can't say enough about the students here. Gunnerism is simply not socially tolerated in our class.

Wow, at least she was basing her comments off her boyfriend's opinions, and he goes to UNC. That comment was based on nothing but your own ignorance. Have you ever been to lectures at a "top ranked school"?
 
I think its best to look at your financial aid offer and considering that, the possibility of a research scholarship during the rsearch year if you plan to do research should help you determine where to go. Certainly Duke is a great institution and you will get a top-notch education unlike that which you can get anywhere else (especially due tot he unique curriculum). However, you might be willing to pay $30,000 more for Duke. But would youb e willing to pay $100,000? More than likely, your FA package will be nice enough that its more like the former than the latter. Also keep in mind that you will save 1 yr at Duke. And if you are concerned about finances, remember that that is 1 yr of income saved by going to Duke. So if you start working as a doc in 2018 (at Duke) instead of 2019 (at UNC), you can just take that first yr's earnings and surely it will be more than the difference in debt for UNC and Duke. Go to Duke.
 
UNC hands down, you can't beat the tuition, and it's a really good school the US News rankings are not the best gague for "quality" schools, since alumni giving, endownment etc are factored in, and not every school participates.

socially, I'm not a fan of dukies...the fan can be mean, and in my (somewhat biased opinion) less than desireable. But not a med school acceptance decision worhy factor
 
Duke > UNC, because Duke's curriculum is so brilliant. I mean, you can do so much in that one year gap (MBA, research, etc.)
 
It seems that another distinction is how Duke's first year is pretty intense (condensed 2 years into 1), while UNC's first year is strictly P/F.

How are/did you Dukies handling/handled first year?

Also, how would my career indecisiveness factor in? I really have no idea what I want to go in, nor do I have any idea where I want to practice. I don't know...I'm sure both UNC and Duke match people anywhere they want.

Oh, what does that mean "Duke gives out good financial aid packages"? Does that mean they have more money to give out, or is it if you really really need it they will accommodate? Cuz I'm in the middle with respect to need-based aid.


Thanks guys for all the advice! Feel free to post anything else your thinking
 
It seems that another distinction is how Duke's first year is pretty intense (condensed 2 years into 1), while UNC's first year is strictly P/F.

How are/did you Dukies handling/handled first year?

Also, how would my career indecisiveness factor in? I really have no idea what I want to go in, nor do I have any idea where I want to practice. I don't know...I'm sure both UNC and Duke match people anywhere they want.
See my statement above regarding first year. Yes, it's busy and at times very stressful, but that's the case at every med school. In general, first year is as stressful as you want to make it. I'm not smart enough to make honors unless I studied 10 hours/day, which is not something I wanted to do...so I was fine with doing my best and passing. You decide how you want to do it. Also, there are rumors that, although UNC is technically P/F, they do keep track of your scores and your class rank. First year grades dont matter much anyway.

If you wanted to go into primary care for sure, I'd absolutely say "go to UNC." Great value for the education. But if you end up deciding to go into something really competitive, Duke will help...and I don't mean because of the name or the names of the people you'll meet, but because you'd have had 1 year of research or a dual degree to go on your resume.
 
It seems that another distinction is how Duke's first year is pretty intense (condensed 2 years into 1), while UNC's first year is strictly P/F.

How are/did you Dukies handling/handled first year?

Also, how would my career indecisiveness factor in? I really have no idea what I want to go in, nor do I have any idea where I want to practice. I don't know...I'm sure both UNC and Duke match people anywhere they want.

Oh, what does that mean "Duke gives out good financial aid packages"? Does that mean they have more money to give out, or is it if you really really need it they will accommodate? Cuz I'm in the middle with respect to need-based aid.


Thanks guys for all the advice! Feel free to post anything else your thinking

First year is long and tiring. Mr. Burns was right, you really have to work a lot to get honors, but you really don't have to work a lot to pass. So if you don't mind passing, it's not actually bad at all. But I am very glad that it's over and done with. I didn't come to med school to sit in class all day. The wards are also tiring, but they are way more fun and interesting.

As far as being undecided on your future specialty, Duke is actually a great place to be. We get a 4 week elective and 2 2-week selectives during second year that can be pretty much anything you're interested in. So you get a chance to explore some options other than the core rotations before you have to finalize your research commitments for third year. I am still incredibly undecided (2/3 of the way through second year) and very glad to be able to take electives to figure this out. I honestly cannot imagine being a third year right now, making final decisions about what residency to apply to, and having no clue and no optional electives. I'm sure people manage at other schools, but I'm way too type A to deal with the uncertainty.

Re: fin aid - basically they take your estimated parental contribution, subtract it from the total estimated cost of tuition, and then take the rest and give you half loans and half scholarship. So if the cost of school is $60k, and your parental contribution is $30k, then you get $15k in loans and $15k in grant money. Of course, if your parents aren't going to contribute, as is usually the case, your loans are really $45k and your grant money is $15. Which is nicer than a lot of other private schools, which don't give grant money at all. However, I personally found that Duke calculated my parental contribution higher than any other school. So it depends. Wait until you get your package and then make your decision.
 
Mr. Burns was right
aww, you don't have to be formal with me, diosa. You can call me Burnsie.

UNC gives a little elective time 3rd year, but not quite as much (I think one two-week elective less). It is really nice to have a year after rotations to decide all this stuff, though...I'd be freaking out if I were a 3rd year right now and still undecided. It's bad when you eliminate surgery and medicine because there's not much left after that...
 
hey! check out this website that i think will really help you out. you can see what current students think about the campus, professors, academics, dormlife, etc. It's been really helpful to get a virtual tour from an insider perspective. Here's a student talking about the medicine program at Duke: http://www.lvutv.com/college.php/31?v=17836 Good luck!!
 
I'd have to disagree with the comment that both Duke and UNC match people "anyplace they want." Don't assume this is true, even for moderately competitive specialties. This is an especially important consideration if you're not sure what you want to do. You'll survive the pre-clinical year(s) no matter where you go, but the match-making potential of your medical school will follow you for years to come, both during the residency match process and even later on in your career. It's difficult for you to compare match lists at this stage, but I assure you they're quite different.

If you knew you wanted to do family practice/primary care, then UNC is the place to be. You'll get better exposure to this at UNC, and would be a competitive applicant for sure. But if you might be interested in radiology, dermatology, plastic surgery, ophthalmology, ENT, urology, or even general surgery with how competitive it's gotten these past few years, then you should think VERY seriously about going to Duke. Quite honestly, the name opens up doors for you. That's not to say that you couldn't match into one of these specialties from UNC -- it's clear that top UNC students do so every year -- but an "average" student at Duke is much more likely to do so than an "average" student from UNC. Having gone through the fellowship interview process in a competitive subspecialty, it's quite clear to me that your med school name matters quite a bit, as does your residency pedigree. So if there's a chance that you'd be pursuing anything but general practice, I'd urge you to very seriously consider going to Duke, provided that you think you'd be generally happy there. I absolutely loved my time at Duke, and could spend hours praising the virtues of the curriculum, but I'll spare you the rant since others have done it quite well here. And as others have said, Duke's financial aid packages are incredible. Duke more than doubled the need-based grant money offers I received at other top schools, such that I didn't have to take out any private bank loans, thereby reducing my total debt by tens of thousands over four years.

In any case, good luck with the decision, and congratulations! You're certainly in an enviable position! 🙂
 
I think that UNC holds its own in terms of its match list. Take a look at their match lists, they have numerous people going into plastics, derm, ophthamology, orthopedics, radiology, radiation oncology, urology, otolaryngology. Sure they have a quite a few people going into family medicine and internal medicine, but many people intentionally choose internal medicine because the speciality they want to complete is a fellowship. While they may have more family medicine residents than Harvard or WashU, the students don't seem to have any trouble securing extremely competitive residencies.

http://www.med.unc.edu/md/residency-match/residency-placements

I may be basied though. Although I am not a UNC med student, I do bleed Tar Heel Blue. Go HEELS!
 
yes I think this is getting too Duke'd out. It's been a while since I've gone through the process but do you have your financial aid package yet. If you have a good deal and Duke that is comparable to UNC then if you like it you should probably go there, the name is better. If you are paying full tuition, then honestly I think it is a no-brainer to choose UNC. I'm unbelievably happy that I turned down some top programs in the northeast to come here--I would definitely make the same decision again. I didn't apply to Duke, just because I was wary of their different curriculum and if I was going to live around here I'd rather live in Chapel Hill. When I was deciding, every practicing physician I talked to always talks about how lucky I was to get the chance to go to such a cheap and well-respected school like UNC and that I should not turn it down...the money really does matter. I think people are underplaying UNC's reputation...we are number 19 for research and number 2 for primary care--look at Internal medicine matches in the 2008 match list...we matched multiple people at some of the best medicine programs--Duke, UCSF, Johns Hopkins, and MGH...and almost all the matches were at well-known programs. We really are a well-rounded med school with great research and patient care. Sorry--had to defend my school.
 
I think that UNC holds its own in terms of its match list. Take a look at their match lists, they have numerous people going into plastics, derm, ophthamology, orthopedics, radiology, radiation oncology, urology, otolaryngology. Sure they have a quite a few people going into family medicine and internal medicine, but many people intentionally choose internal medicine because the speciality they want to complete is a fellowship. While they may have more family medicine residents than Harvard or WashU, the students don't seem to have any trouble securing extremely competitive residencies.

http://www.med.unc.edu/md/residency-match/residency-placements

I may be basied though. Although I am not a UNC med student, I do bleed Tar Heel Blue. Go HEELS!

After looking at that match list, I'd agree that UNC students can probably match in whatever they want, but I'm not sure I'd agree that they can all match wherever they want. Of course, it's a hard distinction to make b/c a lot of the students are in state and want to stay in the south... but I wasn't really terribly impressed with the program names. For example, we matched more than twice as many people at MGH and we have a smaller class.
 
Hey OP, I was in your exact position last summer - I was accepted to UNC and then got off the waitlist to Duke. I was an in-state student, so the difference was close to 120K. I posted a similar question and found myself receiving (much appreciated) PMs and responses from students at both schools - but it started to feel like I was in the midst of a battle for souls between heaven and hell.

I think the important thing here is to go to the school that is personally the best fit for you. You will perform best where you are most comfortable. If you are truly interested in an academic career, applying to competitive specialties, and know that you really want to pursue the MPH degree, then it makes sense to go to Duke. However, if you're not so sure about these things, or you are leaning more toward primary care - is Duke worth 90K more for you? In all honestly, probably not. (I hope my comrades here won't hang me as a traitor). Even for more competitive specialties, UNC is still a wonderful school and I have several friends attending their med school who speak very highly of the program. Duke has an excellent program, but 100K in additional debt (if your financial aid works out that way) is a tremendous burden that should not be dismissed lightly.
One thing I will caution you about -- I wouldn't bank on the possibility of 3rd year scholarships at Duke or getting in-state tuition at UNC. Maybe our friends down Tobacco road can help clarify this, but according to the law in NC, in order to become a resident for tuition-purposes, you must have been living in NC without the primary intent of obtaining an education for a period of 12 months before the start of classes. So, in other words, you can't be going to school full-time while living here and then get in-state status for subsequent years. When I interviewed I heard the same promise given to other out of state students - now I think our current med students at Duke have been successful in getting residency status for the 3rd year MPH and it may very well be true you could do this too, but I would check and darned well get it in writing before you commit because I have heard horror stories of others ultimately not getting the in-state status they had expected.

You've gotten a lot of great, detailed feedback on this page, but feel free to PM me if you have more questions about choosing between the two. For me, it was a rough decision - I honestly felt (and continue to feel) that Duke had better programs and opportunities, particularly for what I wanted to do. I'm also interested in the MPH and abbreviated pre-clinical curriculum (thank gosh we will be done in only 3 more months - I don't think I could make it through another year).

Good luck - you can't go wrong either way!
 
After looking at that match list, I'd agree that UNC students can probably match in whatever they want, but I'm not sure I'd agree that they can all match wherever they want...

Diosa's right on target here, but I'd take it a bit farther and say that not all can match into whatever they want either. I don't disagree that there are some GREAT matches on the UNC match lists linked above, but it's enormously different from the Duke list, both in the percentage of subspecialty applicants and in the quality of the matches themselves. Sure there are some top programs there, but not nearly as many as the Duke list, and this makes a big difference later on when you're trying to find a job or join a practice. I was particularly surprised by the general surgery matches in 2008...there are some pretty obscure programs there, and I bet many of those applicants went rather far down their match lists, as gen surg has gotten extremely competitive in the last few years. Also, there are only 3 matches in radiology, and all staying at UNC...that's a red flag to me. Duke typically matches 6-12 into radiology, most at top tier programs such that you can land a job anywhere you want coming out of residency. The same goes for orthopedics. UNC matched 3, and two are staying there. Duke typically matches 4-8 or so, at top programs, despite how competitive of a field it is. There's also only one derm match in 2008 as well, and the person is staying at UNC. Duke typically matches several in derm, again at top programs.

Looking at the UNC match list, it's clear that there are many more applicants matching into medicine, med-peds, and family practice compared to Duke, with far fewer in radiology, derm, ENT, ophtho, plastics, and urology. There may be some self-selection here, as students interested in these fields may be less likely to choose a more primary-care directed institution, but it also makes you wonder if it's more difficult to match into those specialties coming from UNC as well, or if you don't get enough exposure to them to know if they're the right choice for you. And the "orthopedic surgery/research" match on the 2008 UNC list suggests to me that at least one person didn't match in ortho, and will be re-applying next year, or was offered a spot outside the match to begin the following year. This is not to say that people don't fail to match from Duke into ortho too...it's certainly happened before...but with a field so competitive from the start, why handicap yourself?

I'm not saying you can't match in a competitive subspecialty if you go to UNC, but you're certainly stacking the deck somewhat against you, such that you may have a difficult time matching into one of the aforementioned competitive fields if you're not one of the top students there. It's difficult for an applicant to glean these subtle differences when looking at a match list, but having been through the process now, I assure you they're VERY different. So again, if you're considering not doing primary care or internal medicine, you should strongly consider taking on a bit more debt to go to Duke. This is not to say that UNC isn't a phenomenal place, but there's enough of a difference between these two institutions that you really need to think about your future plans before deciding, because it will likely impact your match significantly if you apply into a competitive subspecialty.
 
I can't tell you all how much this thread has helped me clear my frame of thought.

I think I'll be mulling this one over pretty close to the deadline.

Really though, THANKS!
 
I'll chime in on this. As a current Duke med student, I can say that Duke is amazing. All of the opportunities you need to do great things are here at Duke. However, UNC is a great school too. If the price difference is huge, I'd go to UNC. That's just me. However, you're talking to someone who refused to apply to more than 3 colleges [all cheap state schools] b/c he refused to pay to go to undergrad. And I get good finaid at Duke, so I'm not really paying much more than it would have cost to attend my state school. I just want to take that stance...I love Duke, but I also think you need to be financially responsible.
 
TommyGunn04 has a lot of interesting theories about UNC's match list (vs Duke's match list) but he made one very critical error: he didn't consider selection bias.

UNC, as a state-supported institution, has a mission to educate North Carolina's future doctors. This includes PCPs, general surgeons, etc who want to work in the more rural parts of the state. The admissions committee recognizes that it cannot force students (or shouldn't force students) into primary care or rural settings in order to fill the state need. So, it works very hard during the medical school admissions process to recruit a large percentage of students who are likely to fill those roles out of their own volition. These students are NOT your average SDN gunner with the 42 MCAT and 4.0 GPA with tons of research experience and publications. They are typically good students with strong ties to North Carolina (or the South in general) who express a desire to "go back home" to practice medicine within their community. From the looks of UNC's match list, I'd say that the admissions committee did a pretty good job.

Duke's mission is very different from UNC's. I don't think I need to explain how. Therefore, because the selection criteria for the two groups of students (UNC class of '08 and Duke class of '08) are so different, one cannot compare the groups (i.e., via match lists) with any validity. It's just that simple.

Note: UNC does not want *all* of its students going into primary care/private practice/rural care. It is a very well-respected research institution and will go out of its way to help students who want to stay in academics. We are not talking about Podunk U.

By the way, according to the UNC website, "UNC Orthopaedics offers both a five-year program and a six-year program that includes a research year."

-Vaccine (a Duke grad)
 
Ok, but if you ignore ALL the instate matches from UNC, assuming those people ALL wanted to stay instate, there are still a significant number of people who matched out of state, and those matches aren't particularly impressive.
 
At the end of the day the following should enter into the decision:

- Duke has a stronger reputation than UNC, including among residency program directors.

- UNC does not have a bad reputation at all. They do have a very good reputation.

- You should carefully analyze how much loan debt you can handle. Do you want to make your decision on, say, $20k more in loan debt that equates to about $230/month more in loan payments at a time when you will be making around $7300/month after taxes (based on $140k/yr in the state of NC). Is it more important to you that that money be directed towards charitable causes or towards retirement funds? Will you have certain burdens in the future (aging parents or grandparents or a chronically ill family member)?

- One of these two places should just "feel" better to you. Maybe not by a lot, but I doubt that you will have the exact same feeling about both, despite similarities.

- Which curriculum fits your interests/concerns more.
 
From what I hear, they are both excellent schools. But to echo what others have said, it can be broken down to this:

If you want to do primary care or you don't care about research/academics, go to UNC.

If you want to go into academics or do research, and can find a way to pay for it, go to Duke.

You'll be fine either way.
 
TommyGunn04 has a lot of interesting theories about UNC's match list (vs Duke's match list) but he made one very critical error: he didn't consider selection bias.

Aside from your smug tone, this is a great point. But if you read my post more carefully you'll see that I did actually mention the possibility of bias, which I called "self-selection." I wouldn't throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater though, and conclude that the comparison isn't useful. The fact that UNC may choose different types of students doesn't somehow make a match list comparison useless. It's arguably even more useful actually, as it highlights the biases of these institutions themselves, with UNC being more primary care oriented and Duke being more subspecialty/nationally oriented. This should serve to further inform an individual's choice of institutions, depending on his or her career aspirations. If this is really true, and an applicant know he/she wants to pursue a competitive subspecialty fellowship, why shouldn't this be an important comparison? It'd be silly not to consider it, I think.

Again, these are both phenomenal institutions, and none of this discussion serves to somehow demean or undermine anyone's education at either place. It's just meant to help better inform a person's choice of schools based on a number of factors that differ between these two great establishments. I get the sense that something I said offended you in some way. If so, I apologize, and urge you not to take it personally. I'm just trying to help an applicant make a difficult decision.
 
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