Underclassmen vs. Upperclassmen

[aelian]

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Just wanted to know, typically, how merciful are dental schools? I've searched the forums to see if this has been discussed but didn't find anything. Anyway, I’ve heard from others (don’t know how accurate this is) that the last 45 hours are weighed the most heavily. It seems logical to weigh the last hours as the heaviest because the coursework will be more difficult and the applicant will have matured academically.

Taking myself as an example. My first two years (58 hours), I had a 2.76 GPA taking lower division pre-requisites. For my last two years (50 hours), I had a 3.67 GPA taking my upper levels.

For people who have underperformed their underclassmen years but improved their upperclassmen years, is there a redemption or will they still be marked by their early failures?

 

[TheAviator]

Just wanted to know, typically, how merciful are dental schools? I've searched the forums to see if this has been discussed but didn't find anything. Anyway, I’ve heard from others (don’t know how accurate this is) that the last 45 hours are weighed the most heavily. It seems logical to weigh the last hours as the heaviest because the coursework will be more difficult and the applicant will have matured academically.

Taking myself as an example. My first two years (58 hours), I had a 2.76 GPA taking lower division pre-requisites. For my last two years (50 hours), I had a 3.67 GPA taking my upper levels.

For people who have underperformed their underclassmen years but improved their upperclassmen years, is there a redemption or will they still be marked by their early failures?

Please try not to take offense to this:

I see this an attempt to make an excuse for performing poorly in the first 2 years of college. You can make all the excuses in the world regarding why you did poorly. By you saying "matured academically" you mean the person decided all of a sudden to put forward some effort in order to not totally destroy their GPA. It would be unfair to the people who worked their you know what off for 4years, never taking a break in order to achieve a very competitive GPA. You my friend really went to college for 2 years, and took the other 2 years off for whatever reason. Make all the excuses you wish, the adcoms will see right through the smoke and mirrors. The only person you have to blame is yourself, for your poor GPA.

 

[aelian]

Please try not to take offense to this:

I see this an attempt to make an excuse for performing poorly in the first 2 years of college. You can make all the excuses in the world regarding why you did poorly. By you saying "matured academically" you mean the person decided all of a sudden to put forward some effort in order to not totally destroy their GPA. It would be unfair to the people who worked their you know what off for 4years, never taking a break in order to achieve a very competitive GPA. You my friend really went to college for 2 years, and took the other 2 years off for whatever reason. Make all the excuses you wish, the adcoms will see right through the smoke and mirrors. The only person you have to blame is yourself, for your poor GPA.

Ouch. It feels like I was just falcon punched to heck. 🙁

I'm guessing you don't really like the idea of redemption. To be fair, I agree that it is kind of unfair to other who have been doing well for their 4 years. Yes. But in my defense, I would argue that a lot of people have 1 or 2 bad semesters compared to my 4. I would also mention that I worked hard my last two years as well by postponing my graduation to take additional classes and continuing to take more classes so I'll have been in college 5 years eventually to have finished my last 3 years strong. In addition, I took several upper level classes (A&P I&II, Physiology, Biochemistry I&II, Neuroscience, Endo, etc.) and did well in all of them as well as finished my last 3 semesters with all A's. And finally, I did pretty well on my DAT's (23/23/19). I wouldn't call it smoke and mirrors. I know I'm still behind in the race but I feel I can compete with anyone. The numbers don't lie.

 

[lmaozedong1]

Ouch. It feels like I was just falcon punched to heck. 🙁

I'm guessing you don't really like the idea of redemption. To be fair, I agree that it is kind of unfair to other who have been doing well for their 4 years. Yes. But in my defense, I would argue that a lot of people have 1 or 2 bad semesters compared to my 4. I would also mention that I worked hard my last two years as well by postponing my graduation to take additional classes and continuing to take more classes so I'll have been in college 5 years eventually to have finished my last 3 years strong. In addition, I took several upper level classes (A&P I&II, Physiology, Biochemistry I&II, Neuroscience, Endo, etc.) and did well in all of them as well as finished my last 3 semesters with all A's. And finally, I did pretty well on my DAT's (23/23/19). I wouldn't call it smoke and mirrors. I know I'm still behind in the race but I feel I can compete with anyone. The numbers don't lie.

I don't think it's that he/she doesn't like the idea of redemption, but some people take offense to people who didn't work as hard as they did, yet still want the same benefits. Now everybody has their own situations, as I'm sure you did, but you have to also realize how others might feel as well about this. You sound like you're pretty bright, due to your DAT scores, so I'm assuming you might not have taken college as seriously as you should have during your first two years. 👍

 

[aelian]

I don't think it's that he/she doesn't like the idea of redemption, but some people take offense to people who didn't work as hard as they did, yet still want the same benefits. Now everybody has their own situations, as I'm sure you did, but you have to also realize how others might feel as well about this. You sound like you're pretty bright, due to your DAT scores, so I'm assuming you might not have taken college as seriously as you should have during your first two years. 👍

I understand how they feel. I was unmotivated my first two years. Smart (not smart enough to realize I was shoving money down the drain like Kobayashi stuffing hot dogs down his throat) but not driven. But I still think there has to be some leniency when looking at the contrast in my performance from underclassmen to upperclassmen years. I have spent the last few years working pretty hard as well, not just in the classroom but all around. I think I have shown I can compete. Hopefully the dental schools see that as well and not just see my ugly performance in my college infancy.

 

[lmaozedong1]

I understand how they feel. I was unmotivated my first two years. Smart (not smart enough to realize I was shoving money down the drain like Kobayashi stuffing hot dogs down his throat) but not driven. But I still think there has to be some leniency when looking at the contrast in my performance from underclassmen to upperclassmen years. I have spent the last few years working pretty hard as well, not just in the classroom but all around. I think I have shown I can compete. Hopefully the dental schools see that as well and not just see my ugly performance in my college infancy.

Yea, we have all made mistakes. You've shown you're smart enough w/ your DAT, but hopefully they'll look past your GPA. 👍

 

[khangreen]

I remember one school's representative said that if they do see an improvement, they'll take that into account, but you still won't be accepted as easily as someone who got good grades throughout of course. Besides, you still have to meet minimum requirements and what not.

 

[allover]

dont let the haters psych you out. they just hope to have one less person to compete with. as my ol friend Winston Churchill used to say

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.”


🙂

 

[aelian]

I remember one school's representative said that if they do see an improvement, they'll take that into account, but you still won't be accepted as easily as someone who got good grades throughout of course. Besides, you still have to meet minimum requirements and what not.

I'm hoping the redemption is possible. I'm still wondering if anyone else has heard about the 45 hour rule or if it is a myth. And I'm a pretty well rounded guy (about 1000 hours of shadowing/volunteering combined and leadership as well).

And thanks Lmaozedong and Allover. If I could split a cookie with you guys, being that cookies are my passion and also my downfall , I would do so. But alas, my last attempt to shove the gloriousness through the monitor was rendered futile. I guess, you could say, that's how the cookie crumbles (my humor sucks 🙁).

 

[alanan84]

Yes, adcoms will take into account your upward trend. That, along with your kick A DAT score definitely makes you competitive. I think there's a good chance you'll get in, but I also wouldn't be surprised if it comes off a waitlist, similar to me.

BTW, I started out college rough and showed a significant upward trend as well so I kind of know how you feel.

 

[allover]

what exactly do you mean by upper and lover division pre reqs? can u list them and what grades you got? and it certainly will help to see you have done better and done so in harder classes. but whats also important is your science GPA, which in your case would include classes from your first (lower GPA) two years, if im understanding correctly.

 

[aelian]

what exactly do you mean by upper and lover division pre reqs? can u list them and what grades you got? and it certainly will help to see you have done better and done so in harder classes. but whats also important is your science GPA, which in your case would include classes from your first (lower GPA) two years, if im understanding correctly.

My underclassman...🙁 Bio I and II, C's (retook for B and A, respectively).
G. Chem, both B's. O. Chems, D and C. Retook I later for an A. Physics, B and A. Molecular Biology, B.

I'll list the uppers that are related to dental schoool. I'll start with Junior year.
Fall: Micro-B, Genetics-A Spring: Bich I - B A/P I - C
Senior Year
Fall: Bich II/lab-A, A&P II-A Spring: Animal Phys-A, Human Gene-A
Super Senior Year
Fall: Endo-A, Neuro-A

As I said earlier, my first 58 hours were 2.76 and my last 50 hours which I tried to make predominately geared towards dental school were 3.67 and my last 37, 4.0.

And yes, unfortunately, my science GPA is a cumulative aborted monster (3.05). I think all my upper levels averaged together are a 3.5 though.

And hey, Alanan, congrats on Baylor! That was the only school I interviewed at last year. I could tell at the end of the interview, shaking Dr. Miller's hand and looking into her eyes, that I had a snowball's chance in hell. 🙁

 

[allover]

ok. first you need to stop thinking in terms of upper division and lower division. just think science GPA and cum GPA. your science GPA is a 3.05. Its not THAT bad. People get into dschool with such a GPA every year, and even lower. Now, accept this and be the best applicant you can in every other area. If you can't accept it, then start thinking about ways to increase your sGPA.

 

[alanan84]

ok. first you need to stop thinking in terms of upper division and lower division. just think science GPA and cum GPA. your science GPA is a 3.05. Its not THAT bad. People get into dschool with such a GPA every year, and even lower. Now, accept this and be the best applicant you can in every other area. If you can't accept it, then start thinking about ways to increase your sGPA.

He/she is talking about upper division and lower division courses because it illustrates the upward trend. It's relevant because schools do consider that and many schools consider upper level science courses to be important because they're more similar to a d school curriculum.

 

[alanan84]

And hey, Alanan, congrats on Baylor! That was the only school I interviewed at last year. I could tell at the end of the interview, shaking Dr. Miller's hand and looking into her eyes, that I had a snowball's chance in hell. 🙁

So you've already interviewed at Baylor! Well that should help you this cycle especially if you've improved your app!

I couldn't really read Dr. Miller after the interview but it was cool because I ran into her at my school back in February at a Health professions fair and got to talk to her for like 15-20 minutes. IDK but I think that helped.

 

[doc toothache]

I'm hoping the redemption is possible. I'm still wondering if anyone else has heard about the 45 hour rule or if it is a myth. And I'm a pretty well rounded guy (about 1000 hours of shadowing/volunteering combined and leadership as well).

You must have been talking about some Canadian ds where the grades from the last 2 years are taken into account. Since you are in an elite group when it comes to the DAT you are unlikely to be needing any "redemption" points provided you don't blow your ps or your interview.

 

[allover]

He/she is talking about upper division and lower division courses because it illustrates the upward trend. It's relevant because schools do consider that and many schools consider upper level science courses to be important because they're more similar to a d school curriculum.

bingo!

 

[aelian]

So you've already interviewed at Baylor! Well that should help you this cycle especially if you've improved your app!

I couldn't really read Dr. Miller after the interview but it was cool because I ran into her at my school back in February at a Health professions fair and got to talk to her for like 15-20 minutes. IDK but I think that helped.

Being from Texas, you might watch King of the Hill. If so, you might remember that episode where Hank meets the presidential candidate with the limp handshake. The handshake was kind of like that. Not dead, but emotionless. I took it as an ominous sign. That and her smile. I vividly remember it as a weak smile. It kind of spoke to me: Aelian, sorry, but you’re not cut out. Sorry.
BUT…I’m typically a very, very pessimistic person. The type who goes to Disney World and has a terrible time. Take the good for bad. But my visceral feelings were accurate, I guess.


And Doc Toothache, my PS made mention of my turnaround and one of LOR from my science prof heavily stressed the idea of redemption as well. I'm ready for the new round of interviews. Last time I didn't effectively defend myself. I know some interviews are intentionally designed to see how well you can handle stress. One of the interviewers was pounding the issue of my lower underclassmen grades and I just never articulated a good point against it. It was like I was Rocky and he was Clubber Lang, match 1. It was ugly.

 

[DropShot 2014]

I can only speak for the University of Oklahoma, but they have something called L60 where they somehow look at the last 60 credit hours that you have completed and somehow take that into account. I dont know how much of a factor that this plays in your overall acceptance however. When they explained it to us at our interview they explained it as a way to give people a chance to show an improvement if they got off to a rocky start in college.

Obviously your sciGPA/GPA and DAT are more important factors but I think that this answers your questions...some schools do look at more recent coursework.