Undergrad grading curves, possible biases against certain students

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Ernham

Membership Revoked
Removed
15+ Year Member
20+ Year Member
Joined
May 21, 2003
Messages
640
Reaction score
1
Well, I've now collected the data for about 90% of the math courses from algebra up to calc 3/linear algebra level. I've come to the conclusion that my own school may actually be biased against non-traditional students, lower socioeconomic students, any students without strong math backgrounds etc.

It appears that all the courses prior to calc 1 have an absurd grading curve. What I mean is, most of them have 93% cut-off for an A and have little to no "easy points" during the duration of the course. At calc1 and higher, however, they suddenly start giving an extra 7-10 points in the curve, many times dropping all the way down to an 80% for the A cutoff. No wonder so many persons major in math when they inflate all the higher level courses. Has anyone seen anything like this at other colleges? In math or a different department?
 
This is common to most subjects I think, and I don't see 90% odd as abnormal for an A in intro classes. I'm not sure how you define 'easy points' but I think at the higher level math its just so ridiculously hard to get 95% the curve drops. Unless you are collating this for a statistics study project as part of another class I think you may be unwisely distributing your energies - concentrate on the math in class, not the math of curves.
 
Originally posted by Ernham
Well, I've now collected the data for about 90% of the math courses from algebra up to calc 3/linear algebra level. I've come to the conclusion that my own school may actually be biased against non-traditional students, lower socioeconomic students, any students without strong math backgrounds etc.

It appears that all the courses prior to calc 1 have an absurd grading curve. What I mean is, most of them have 93% cut-off for an A and have little to no "easy points" during the duration of the course. At calc1 and higher, however, they suddenly start giving an extra 7-10 points in the curve, many times dropping all the way down to an 80% for the A cutoff. No wonder so many persons major in math when they inflate all the higher level courses. Has anyone seen anything like this at other colleges? In math or a different department?

I am not exactly sure how you figure that this grading is biased against the aforementioned groups of people....but at any rate, I think this is common as you get into high level courses. If you are taking upper level math courses, one can assume that you have a background in math...however, I think tBw is right in that those courses cover material that is a lot harder and the profs realize this (thankfully🙂)and grade accordingly. I also agree with tBw that it really doesnt matter how they grade... just focus on doing the best you can.

Spin😀
 
Well, those "aforementioned groups" tend to enter college with only basic algebra ability, while the majority of other students can hop right into calc(and apparently are immediately presented with a much more forgiving grading curve.)
 
Uhhh... don't you think that's a bit of a stretch??

Somehow I doubt your school is really targeting non-traditional or low SES students. The grading changes come with the changes in the courses and the material - nobody is purposefully changing the curve due to the background of the students, it's how the students in the class perform that determine the curve.
 
But the basic algebra material is much easier. Setting an A at 93% is perfectly reasonable when it is easy to do well with the material. If/when the students in the "aformentioned groups" decided to continue in their mathmatics studies, then they will also have the benefit of the forgiving grading curve in the higher level math classes. When you think it through, everybody wins!

Well, those "aforementioned groups" tend to enter college with only basic algebra ability, while the majority of other students can hop right into calc(and apparently are immediately presented with a much more forgiving grading curve.)
 
Originally posted by Ernham
Well, those "aforementioned groups" tend to enter college with only basic algebra ability, while the majority of other students can hop right into calc(and apparently are immediately presented with a much more forgiving grading curve.)
Yeah, I get that, but I think that the course level at which students enter college is usually equal to their ablilities/background. So, if someone with low SES who went to a crappy highschool so didnt have great math classes can only do algebra I or II, but does well because of natural talent or studying their butts off they can get an A. If someone who took calc 2 in high school and comps into an upper level math course studies his butt off and get an 89% which also happens to be an A, then I dont understand the problem.
I can go further and say that if that low SES person, because of his experiences in lower level math classes in college chooses to pursue a math degree and ends up in that same upper level course and get the same 89% he gets the same A....I really dont see how this discrepancy hurts anyone.
sorry, I think I see where you want to go with this but I dont necessarily agree.

Spin😀
 
In my school, an A is usually put at above or equal to 94/95 (varies). In my calc classes an A was lowered to 85 on the average. Mind you, grading was strict and points deducted for anything; this did not apply to the lower level classes (I am talking from communication with a particular student since I never took such classes).
 
I think "difficult" is a relative term. I thought differential equations was tough, but when I was in calculus, I thought that was tough too. Then again, an "A" in DE was an 87%. Hmm.
 
"Somehow I doubt your school is really targeting non-traditional or low SES students."

Unfortunately, data suggest otherwise. It's really not that difficult to imagine why: most math teachers I've ever known play the "favorites" card quite often. Probably because 99% of the students loath math and hate their courses. Once you hit the calc though, more "math geek" types start to crop up. Can't have the tiny fraction of persons that might go into highly math related professions get a less than stellar grade! Those saps that aren't good at or don't enjoy math can try their damndest to just squeak out a B! Hah! That will fix them!


"But the basic algebra material is much easier."

College algebra is not basic.

"Setting an A at 93% is perfectly reasonable when it is easy to do well with the material."

The test should be made so that you are equally able to perform at a similar level. Once the curve goes passed 90%, you are talking ridiculous in non-multiple choice classes. The vast majority of people make all sorts of little arithmetic/transpose digits, forget a sign, etc. errors.


"If/when the students in the "aformentioned groups" decided to continue in their mathmatics studies, then they will also have the benefit of the forgiving grading curve in the higher level math classes. When you think it through, everybody wins!"

Don't be coy. 99% of them will never even set foot in a calculus class.


"Yeah, I get that, but I think that the course level at which students enter college is usually equal to their ablilities/background."

So, why doesn't the grading curve discrepancy raise your eyebrow?? You've just presented the argument that the curves should essentially be equal.

"I can go further and say that if that low SES person, because of his experiences in lower level math classes in college chooses to pursue a math degree and ends up in that same upper level course and get the same 89% he gets the same A....I really dont see how this discrepancy hurts anyone."

See above: not a valid assertion.
 
I'm always surprised by all the mention of grade curving on these boards. In 4 years undergrad, 2 years of grad school, and a postbac program I've never had a class where grades were curved. Every class I've ever taken, you get what you get regardless of how anyone else did---get an 90, you get an A. Get an 89.8, you get a B. Always seemed very fair to me, and much simpler. Is this experience really that unusual?
 
Ok, so we agree to disagree. We probably cant convince you that it wont make a difference and you probably cant convince us that this matters in the grand scheme of things.

You brought this up to see what others thought and we have told you....what exactly are you looking for?

If those people who aren't "good enough" to do college algebra wont go into further in math anyway ( you said yourself 99% of those people wont go to calc), what difference does it make?? I guess I dont see why you are making something out of this that's all. If they people for whom you are concerned are taking an algebra class to fulfill liberal arts req or something then go on to get an english or even bio degree, so what if they get a B in algebra when the same amount of point would get them an A in calc!!!! It wont make a difference in their lives I think.

Spin

😀
 
". We probably can convince you that it wont make a difference and you probably cant convince us that this matters in the grad scheme of things."

I hope that was a typo.

"You brought this up to see what others thought and we have told you....what exactly are you looking for?"

More than tiny sampling of opinions.

"If those people who aren't "good enough" to do college algebra wont go into further in math anyway, what difference does it make?? I guess I dont see why you are making something out of this that's all."

They all have to take college algebra and/or pre-calc; however, they do not, and 99% will not, go into calculus. I said that to show the fallacies in your previous comments. Don't they teach *logic* in your math courses??
 
oops edited my previous post cause of the typos...and I added a pc of logic in there for you....but it may be inadequate as I only took math up to calc I. However, I still managed to get a MS and be a productive member of society 😉

Spin😀 😀
 
Also, I am wondering why you are collecting this data? Are you going to use it to try to implement policy changes?? And what was your method(s) of sampling??

Spin
 
I've always thought grading curves help the smart people and hurt the dumb ones. That's just my .02.
 
Initially, my main reason was to ferret out the easier profs.

However, after I had compiled the data, I found some discrepancies, which then lead me to collecting more info about the higher levels of calc and their grading curves/course structure.

It seems that not only do they have a much easier grading curve in the post calc courses, they also have a great number of "easy" points throughout the course to accumulate.

My sampling method was merely collecting as many course syllabi as possible.
 
I think this grading scheme makes sense. As a former Math TA, here's why I think it makes sense:

1) For math classes below Calc one, a college should expect a person to be really good in those areas (algebra, trig, etc.) If a person is having to take it in college, fine, but they still should be tested rigorously to make sure they know it inside and out. If you don't really understand algebra, how are you going to use calculus to solve mathametical equations?

2) Once you get to calculus, people don't do so hot. Calculus one some people find difficult (at my school it covers up to Taylor series and through integration), but for the most part it is a breeze. In Calculus II, III, differential equations, and other math courses, not many people get "natural" (>90) A's. In my roommate's Calc II class, a 60 was an A. Did a lot of people get A's? Depends on if you think 4 out of 200 is a lot. Keep in mind I do go to a technical school, where just about everyone is good at math (through the high school level).

3) Most people I know say their upper level classes are easier. There is a reason. The people that are taking the upper level classes survived the lower level classes. If a person couldn't hack Calc I, then they probably aren't a math major. So if you saw a random math major they would probably say it isn't too bad. Every computer science major I know says except for one 3000-level class, the major is pretty slack, but if you ask the average person who takes an intro CS class thinks its death.

Just my $.02.
 
i go to a community college and we don't even have "easy points". you get 70% tests, 10%hw, and a final exam worth 20% almost regardless of what level of math you're taking.

i think, and this is probably flawed reasoning, that at higher levels it's fair to lower the grading scale because problems and such are more complex and one tiny error in basic arithmetic will throw your whole answer off while in college algebra the arithmetic error is probably your end result. my point is that as the problems get longer and harder(this is relative and doesn't apply to ALL higher math) that people are bound to make more of the little errors.

another thing: how about grade inflation? at my school, many of the people who start off in pre-calc did so because they choked on the placement test and didn't bother to appeal for higher placement. i dunno if this applies to your school at all. my point is that some of these people(like me) have an A in pre-calc because we already took it and our GPAs are "padded" a little bit by this.
 
Wah!

Switch to a math major...
 
Originally posted by Ernham:
Unfortunately, data suggest otherwise. It's really not that difficult to imagine why: most math teachers I've ever known play the "favorites" card quite often. Probably because 99% of the students loath math and hate their courses.

Ernham, I don't know what you mean here. Are you saying that the teachers favor students who are enthusiastic and take the time to learn the material? Would you prefer that they give extra points to 99 slackers and punish the 1 who works hard?

I tutor math, from intro arithmetic up through Calc 2, and from my exerience, I'd have to say that a LOT of students in the algebra classes don't work as hard as they should, if what they really want is an A. At a college level, it's perfectly fair to expect students to have a good mastery of algebra. College algebra IS a weedout course in math--that's hardly news. I myself am a non-trad student, I came from a math-deficient background, and I think the system is usually quite fair.

Crappy high schools are another problem altogether, and I know plenty of students aren't being adequately prepared for college, but that's not the fault of colleges or their curving systems.

Also, why are your responses to some of the other posters here so rude? People are just responding to your original question, that's all.
 
I think it's only fair to ease up on the grading curve in upper-division courses. I went to a school where the mean of the class was set to 80%. If you think about it, that means that half the class gets BELOW that, and in a class of 200 people, that's a lot of people getting Cs or worse. Every class thereafter, the people with the lowest grades would slowly drop out, but the mean remained at 80%, regardless of the fact that people were being "weeded out."

If you see where I'm going with this, you can see that except for the people at the very, very top, everyone else's grades naturally slip over the course of two years of med school prereqs. It's killer. And rather humbling I must say.

Thankfully, I was able to get into a competitive major where the mean is now at an 88%. It might just be 8%, but it has made a world of a difference.....

So yeah, I really think that uppin the curve once a student is deep in their major is a good thing; I mean, if you've made it through the prereqs, it's an acheivement in itself (at least it is at my school) and it's not fair to keep the same curve that was used at the very beginning when the make-up of the people taking those classes was completely different.
 
ernham,

i cant believe you are serious with posting this crap.

Grading curves CANT bias against a particular group of students.

End of story.
 
you have graded algebra classes at your college? I thought Davis didn't i'm gonna look that up.
 
okay, i checked we have 2 algebra courses but they're for no credit and a PreCalculus class for credit.
 
"Ernham, I don't know what you mean here. Are you saying that the teachers favor students who are enthusiastic and take the time to learn the material? Would you prefer that they give extra points to 99 slackers and punish the 1 who works hard?"

It's very obvious what I mean. If math teachers are biased in that they cut the more mathematically advanced students a break while the already "mathematically compromised" are held to a different, much higher standard, there is an obvious problem.

"I tutor math, from intro arithmetic up through Calc 2, and from my exerience, I'd have to say that a LOT of students in the algebra classes don't work as hard as they should, if what they really want is an A."

This has absolutely no relevance to grading scale discrepancies between calc and pre-calc/algebra.



"Crappy high schools are another problem altogether, and I know plenty of students aren't being adequately prepared for college, but that's not the fault of colleges or their curving systems."

Again, I don't care how or why the students end up in the classes; just what occurs *in* the classes.

"Also, why are your responses to some of the other posters here so rude? People are just responding to your original question, that's all."

I don't believe I've been rude at all. I don't care to have to repeat myself when I have already elucidated my position on something quite clearly, as was the case in the "your math classes teach logic?" comment.

The next time you all get the chance, I'd ask that you take a look at the intro vs general classes of the different majors.

As an example, we have 2 freshman biology courses; one is a general biology and the other is an "intro to biology." Both have the same credits and the same stuff; however,the general bio is much more rigorous and the intro to biology is graded on the 90/80/70 scale, as opposed to the general biology scale 93/85/etc..

Not only is the general course harder but the grading curve is tougher as well. That should be the case for ALL majors. You are majoring in your major because you LIKE it and are GOOD at it , right? You want to know everything WELL and DEEP, right? It should be no problem for you to maintain a high grade then. This should also follow the case with mathematics, especially since all mathematics build on each other as all other sciences do.
 
"okay, i checked we have 2 algebra courses but they're for no credit and a PreCalculus class for credit."

We have three, two of which give no credit. The one that does has a bit of pre-calc in it as well and actually touches on some stuff in higher algebra courses.
 
hmmm... doesn't this sound like the "let's spend $50 billion to build medical schools" thread? 😀
 
Ernham - I think that the data actually point to a different conclusion. If you think about it carefully I think the data fully supports the fact that you are a jackass.
 
Wow. Is this the pre-med forum, or the prepubescent forum??
 
You've found that the cutoff is set higher in one course than the other, but do you know the percentage of students in each course who achieve the cutoff?
 
"You've found that the cutoff is set higher in one course than the other, but do you know the percentage of students in each course who achieve the cutoff?"

No, no. I would have no idea of that. This is just raw tabulation of the information off the syllabi.

About 5% of calc- points are "freebies."About 17.2% of calc+ and higher points are "freebies."

Calc+ classes average 4.2 exams; calc- classes average 5.4. (I found this kind of odd as well as all the calc series are 5 credit courses on my campus)
Difference in cutoff for an A is about 8.3 points in favor of the cal+ courses.

83% of the calc+ profs are female; 54% of the calc- courses are female profs. Confounding variable possibly. (the school is really gonzo in its affirmative action)

Essentially all the calc+ classes are 5 days a week; calc- classes are all only 4 a week. Course credits reflect this(4 vs 5).
 
ernham,

you are just frustrated about why you cant seem to grasp simple polynomial algebra in your college precalc class.

curves/grades are based on knowledge and problem solvign ability

you develop those abilities by hard work, studying, and natural intelligence. end of story
 
"ernham,

you are just frustrated about why you cant seem to grasp simple polynomial algebra in your college precalc class."

Umm, algebra? No. I only need to take statistics and I'm all set, sorry.

"curves/grades are based on knowledge and problem solvign ability"

Ahh, so you mean calc+ students are bone stupid. Quite profound, Aristotle.

"you develop those abilities by hard work, studying, and natural intelligence. end of story"

Given your previous comment, I'd advise you to start crackin'.
 
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Dynx's comment is the only thing worth reading on this pointless thread. Good job!
 
In almost any science department, the intro classes are generally considered to be weed out courses. The department wants to place selective pressure on the class in order to identify the brightest and hardest working among them. They don't force you out if you're not on top, but most sane people aren't satisfied getting C's and low B's in every class so they switch to something else. In math, Calc. is considered intro at most schools. Multivariable Calc., Linear Algebra, and Differential Eqs. are all higher level. Once you get past the intro classes, the goal of the department changes. They have now identified the best and weeded out the unfit. The goal now is to help the students attain their maximum potential, and at many schools this means giving them better grades, better recs, better research opportunities, and other perks in order to give them the best shot of success in the field. None of this has anything to do with socioeconomic status. As long as you enter at the right level, you should be at least equipped to compete.
 
Originally posted by Ernham
Initially, my main reason was to ferret out the easier profs.

My sampling method was merely collecting as many course syllabi as possible.

Man, I have already wasted enough time on this thread...but I can help myself...

So by merely collecting course syllabi you have come up with your conclusion that that the grading is biased against people with low SES, non-trads and those with no math background?? And this is what you are calling data? I applaud you by trying to use some scientific methodology. However, I take issure with those methods.

So if I was going to do this type of study it would require getting grades of students and comparing them against SES or other variables that are you testing against...and that would just be the beginning for me. Since grades are protected by that confidentiality act...the official name of which eludes me at this moment...you probably couldnt get the raw data...but I am sure that there are databases from accreditation processes from which you may be able to get aggregate data as to protect the privacy of those students.

Also, if you initially set out to find out the easier profs you methods are also flawed. By goin about it the wy you have you have deteremined that upper level courses have bigger grading curves than lower level courses. How does that tell you who the easy profs are...logic would tell you that by taking the lower level class you can get a better grade more easily than by taking a really challenging despite the grading curve.


I am all for fighting the system...however, please dont present accusations and assumptions WITHOUT evidence. And I am sorry but collecting syllabi from various courses and comparing the grading scale is a flawed experimental design for what you are trying to prove.


Anyway, I am not really sure how this is relevant to a pre-allo forum... or how sharing this information will help anyone on this board. But what the heck I am going on vacation and figured I might as well get one last post in til next Sunday!!!!

Have a great holiday weekend!!!

Spin

😀
 
The percentage of students achieving the highest cutoff is certainly a better indication of how difficult it is to do well in the course, as opposed to just looking at the absolute value of the cutoff.

At my school, approximately 8% of students in a first year course are expected to receive the highest grade. For an intro stats course the cutoff was 93%; for an intro calc course the cutoff might be 89%.

I cannot see how this can be construed as discrimination against students who are taking stats to fulfill their math requirement, since for most people it is likely not any harder to achieve a 93 in stats than an 89 in calc (no formula sheets). Indeed, the same percentage of students get the highest grade in each course. So that's why I asked about that..
 
"So by merely collecting course syllabi you have come up with your conclusion that that the grading is biased against people with low SES, non-trads and those with no math background?? And this is what you are calling data? I applaud you by trying to use some scientific methodology. However, I take issure with those methods."

That's fine. I recall saying that it *appears* and the "data suggest." I said no such thing that it was entirely fact.

"but I am sure that there are databases from accreditation processes from which you may be able to get aggregate data as to protect the privacy of those students."

Hrm. I'd be interested in such data, of course. However, without being the registrar or some such, I don't think I'd ever get access to such info.


"Also, if you initially set out to find out the easier profs you methods are also flawed. By goin about it the wy you have you have deteremined that upper level courses have bigger grading curves than lower level courses."

Only in math; the correlation is much weaker in every other department, including physics and engineering, two fields that I already know are more difficult than math.

"How does that tell you who the easy profs are...logic would tell you that by taking the lower level class you can get a better grade more easily than by taking a really challenging despite the grading curve."

This hasn't been my experience at all. Some of the intro/general courses are more difficult than those courses that follow.

"I am all for fighting the system...however, please dont present accusations and assumptions WITHOUT evidence."

The evidence is satisfactory as far as I'm concerned. I learned calc 1 completely on my own over a summer that I also worked full time and took 4 hours of summer courses; it was hardly a difficult feat, which makes me chuckle at the "calc is re33ly hurd. Shut up, dewd!" crowd.

"And I am sorry but collecting syllabi from various courses and comparing the grading scale is a flawed experimental design for what you are trying to prove."

You work with what you've got. I'm sure the registrar would be pretty keen on me collecting a little data over at his office...

"Anyway, I am not really sure how this is relevant to a pre-allo forum... or how sharing this information will help anyone on this board. But what the heck I am going on vacation and figured I might as well get one last post in til next Sunday!!!!"

Well, it is in regards to pre-med curriculum; therefore, it is definitely relevant to the forum.
 
Originally posted by Ernham
Well, I've now collected the data for about 90% of the math courses from algebra up to calc 3/linear algebra level. I've come to the conclusion that my own school may actually be biased against non-traditional students, lower socioeconomic students, any students without strong math backgrounds etc.

It appears that all the courses prior to calc 1 have an absurd grading curve. What I mean is, most of them have 93% cut-off for an A and have little to no "easy points" during the duration of the course. At calc1 and higher, however, they suddenly start giving an extra 7-10 points in the curve, many times dropping all the way down to an 80% for the A cutoff. No wonder so many persons major in math when they inflate all the higher level courses. Has anyone seen anything like this at other colleges? In math or a different department?

They base curves off of many years of average student scores etc.
 
For my undergrad work, the curve was based on the percentage of students in that scoring range: the top scoring 10% took the 'A', whether that made the cutoff 63% or 93%...and so forth. So, basically, you just had to be in the top 10 (or 15) percent, no matter what. Therefore, if you took classes with brainiacs in them (like upper level math) it was harder to pull an 'A' than if you took 'History of Rock Music in America for Business Majors'.
 
At my school, an A in calculus was 95%, and it is the samething for most of my humanities class. Anyway, there is not a single class in my University were an A is less than 92%. Curve? who is talking of curve and what does it mean? only few of my friends that are business major talk about that in very few classes (not to insult people who major from their school of mangement because I have a minor in econ. )

i think that curving is bs
 
No, I dont think that curving is bs, especially when professors write their tests shooting for a 60% mean and a nice bell curve grade distribution - the mean for the ochem final that I just took was a nice fat 52%. Its nearly impossible to get anything about a 90% in that class. The top 15-20% of the class gets an A, wherever that may lie, so you usually shoot for the mean+standard deviation . This gives professors the opportunity to really challenge their students and test their knowledge. What would be the use of giving a test that everyone can score perfectly on? You can't weed out the good students from the not so good ones that way. 🙂 A lot of the larger, lower div science and math classes that i've taken have worked this way. (I go to UC Berkeley, btw).
 
"It's very obvious what I mean. If math teachers are biased in that they cut the more mathematically advanced students a break while the already "mathematically compromised" are held to a different, much higher standard, there is an obvious problem."

Your point really wasn't obvious at all. You wrote: "most math teachers I've ever known play the "favorites" card quite often. Probably because 99% of the students loath math and hate their courses." Huh? Should math teachers favor students who make it clear through their performance that they HATE math? Everyone KNOWS that teachers value hard work more than laziness, so really, truly, I do not get your point there, unless you are stating what everyone already knows. Of course math teachers are going to devise a system that screens out apathetic students. Why wouldn't they?

Once you hit the calc though, more "math geek" types start to crop up. Can't have the tiny fraction of persons that might go into highly math related professions get a less than stellar grade!

Do you really think that math teachers are that impressed by calc students? Do you think the number of math geeks IN a calc class is significant, or even muc of an increase over college algebra? Ask any math major--calculus is baby talk among math people. It's mainly taken by pre-meds, engineering students, econ types, and others who will have almost no future in math, and couldn't care less about the subject. Real math geeks often do as little calculus as they can get away with. If profs want to court the rare future mathematician, a calc class full of annoying grade grubbers is hardly the place they'd try to do it. Whatever their reasons for grading the way they do, I doubt a great bias in favor of the average calc student is one of them.

This has absolutely no relevance to grading scale discrepancies between calc and pre-calc/algebra.

I mentioned when I said that I worked with algebra students that college algebra is a weed out course. It purposely has a relatively high percentage of raw points required for each grade, because math departments only WANT a certain number of algebra students to go on to calculus, for many reasons. One of them is work ethic and enthusiasm for math. I've seen plenty of college algebra tests, and I've seen just as many calculus tests, and in my experience, the tests in college algebra DO give the students a comparatively larger number of "breaks." So if they're not getting 93% or whatever, there may be a lack of effort involved. And math departments have deemed effort to be something they value. Since I've personally witnessed the great variation that exists among algebra students in terms of their interest and effort (and the lesser variation among calc students), I think it is relevant for me to point this out when I say that I think the system is fair.

And even at your school, it's entirely possible that, relative to the material, the tests are intentionally made easier in algebra than in calculus. How would a syllabus tell you anything about the difficulty of the tests? The difficulty of the material is not the same thing.

Have you taken college algebra and calculus at your school? You said you taught yourself calc out of a book, so I assume the answer is no. Then how can you be so sure that the calculus exams are NOT harder at your school? If you aren't familiar with the difficulty of the tests in all these classes, then how can you judge whether a particular grading scheme is fair or not?

Finally, what do you mean by a "curve?" In your original post I think you said that 93% was the cutoff for an A in algebra. Are you saying that a student with 93% of the total possible points gets an A? (I assumed you were because of the freebee points you mentioned). If so--that's not really a "curve," it's just a grading scheme. A curve would mean that the top 7% of the students got A's.
 
Originally posted by Destroy364
What would be the use of giving a test that everyone can score perfectly on?
My thoughts as well. I'm not sure what school cad15 went/goes to, but that doesn't sound like any major university system I've ever heard of. We had chemistry, Ochem and physics exams that the TAs weren't able to complete. On of my first year chem classes had a test average in the 20's and a high score of 56. My 36 was 'B'.
 
Originally posted by womansurg
My thoughts as well. I'm not sure what school cad15 went/goes to, but that doesn't sound like any major university system I've ever heard of. We had chemistry, Ochem and physics exams that the TAs weren't able to complete. On of my first year chem classes had a test average in the 20's and a high score of 56. My 36 was 'B'.

Pretty weird. 🙁 . I thought these kinda struggles came up when struggling in the 70's and 80's.
 
Rockhurst University, a small jesuite university in Kansas City, Mo. Just to clarify a point I stated i my previous post, the cut off for an A in orgo was 86% (and the prof is in the process of writting his own book). Evrything else is damn hard, hard, even the introductory classes (1000, 2000) require a 92 and above for A.
 
Originally posted by Ernham
Well, I've now collected the data for about 90% of the math courses from algebra up to calc 3/linear algebra level. I've come to the conclusion that my own school may actually be biased against non-traditional students, lower socioeconomic students, any students without strong math backgrounds etc.

It appears that all the courses prior to calc 1 have an absurd grading curve. What I mean is, most of them have 93% cut-off for an A and have little to no "easy points" during the duration of the course. At calc1 and higher, however, they suddenly start giving an extra 7-10 points in the curve, many times dropping all the way down to an 80% for the A cutoff. No wonder so many persons major in math when they inflate all the higher level courses. Has anyone seen anything like this at other colleges? In math or a different department?

this is reasonable and normal... if you're smart and good at math then this is no big problem... has nothing to do with being a non-trad... lol... more like it's biased against people who are not gifted in the area of mathematics....
 
I also went to a school that didn't use any curves for grading. 100-90 was an A, 89-80 was a B, etc. That doesn't mean that anything was easy, because there were several instances where no one would get As, and there was no curve to save anyone. I don't think I would go so far as to say that curves are BS, but I do know that they wouldn't have worked in my school. My school was so small that in some instances, the top 10% of the class would have been one person (in the small, upper level classes).

Personally, though, I don't see the point in giving a test where no one can score higher than a 50%. You're in school to learn the material, not just be challenged. I would be upset that the professor was more interested in writing a hard exam than teaching me that remaining 50% of the material.
 
Giving a test with a mean of 50 would be the best way to separate out all of the students and try to achieve a standard curve. You want to see how well the students do against one another. Can't give everyone A's right? Or else they'd all get into medical school over us 🙂
 
Top