Undergraduate prestige doesn't matter right?

[gravitywave]

---

Members do not see this ad.

I will share one example to give you something to think about. Two high school friends are interested in science and medicine as a future career, one gets a solid score on the SAT (but nothing extraordinary) and is a legacy at a top 20 university. He goes there, gets a respectable 3.4X GPA and kills the MCAT getting into several medical schools, including his top choice. Life is good.👍 His friend kills the SAT, but she doesn't get into a top tier university and attends a solid top 100 university, her state school. Both major in the sciences. However her GPA is 3.8X, it would seem that she should get into her choice of medical schools as well, right? No. Why? She struggled to get a good score on the MCAT. Why? Who knows. I sailed through the MCAT with knowledge that I learned in my classes, she took it 3 times and ended up at a Post Bac program and research job for 2 years at Harvard. She finally got in. I think that the increased competition of the top tier university forced me to learn more, and study more efficiently than her state school where she coasted on lowered expectations. On paper, she should have been a much better applicant. Something to consider. Maybe she was an anomaly, but she's not a "poor test taker" as she killed the SAT and had a 3.8 GPA. She also had no problems with the USMLE.
I share that story from time to time. It may be more important than you think to attend a very competitive university. Just study your ass off in your science classes so you can kill the MCAT.
If I could go to school for free, vs major debt for me and my parents, I would take the free ride, unless the school is academically really poor.

i can't let this slide. your anecdote regarding you and your friend demonstrates nothing. I've had both experiences: undergrad at a "top 10", followed by a post-bac at a "solid top 100." My MCAT score, based on what I understood from my post-bac plus some self-study, was high enough to ensure that it wasn't what was going to keep me out of high-tier researchy medical schools.

There are lots of reasons why people have weird MCAT scores, but I really don't think undergraduate rigor is a big factor. Your friend was able to put together a good study program for USMLE and apparently not for MCAT. This is likely because the MCAT tests the MCAT. It really doesn't test for anything else. guess what? the USMLE is an exam that's far and away designed to test for minimum competency: that's why they report the two-digit score, so that state authorities can glance at a number and sign off on a license. there's a lot less difference between you and your friend than you think, because USMLE isn't the kind of tool that is really any good at elucidating the differences you think it does - any more than the MCAT is.

why'd the MCAT give your friend so much trouble? I've bolded the part where you came closest to the real answer. everything that's on it is taught everywhere at a level that permits doing well. success for both exams depends on the student, and not just a little bit on luck too.

 

[IlDestriero]

i can't let this slide. your anecdote regarding you and your friend demonstrates nothing. I've had both experiences: undergrad at a "top 10", followed by a post-bac at a "solid top 100." My MCAT score, based on what I understood from my post-bac plus some self-study, was high enough to ensure that it wasn't what was going to keep me out of high-tier researchy medical schools.

There are lots of reasons why people have weird MCAT scores, but I really don't think undergraduate rigor is a big factor. Your friend was able to put together a good study program for USMLE and apparently not for MCAT. This is likely because the MCAT tests the MCAT. It really doesn't test for anything else. guess what? the USMLE is an exam that's far and away designed to test for minimum competency: that's why they report the two-digit score, so that state authorities can glance at a number and sign off on a license. there's a lot less difference between you and your friend than you think, because USMLE isn't the kind of tool that is really any good at elucidating the differences you think it does - any more than the MCAT is.

why'd the MCAT give your friend so much trouble? I've bolded the part where you came closest to the real answer. everything that's on it is taught everywhere at a level that permits doing well. success for both exams depends on the student, and not just a little bit on luck too.

You could have let it slide. It's not proof of anything, nor did I suggest it was. It's only one example. Nothing more. Why did I do well on the MCAT? I learned the material and recalled it on exam day. She took the same classes (somewhere else), got significantly better grades and didn't apparently learn the material well enough to remember it on exam day, or the next time. Why? who really knows, but she doesn't have problems taking tests. I would suggest that it is possible that it related to how the material was taught, and what was expected at one school vs another. Perhaps not, you're free to disagree.
BTW, the MCAT doesn't test "the MCAT", whatever that means. It tests physics, chemistry, biological sciences, writing ability, etc. (unless it has changed) The academic rigor of one's undergraduate university could certainly prepare someone better than another for this exam.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

You could have let it slide. It's not proof of anything, nor did I suggest it was. It's only one example. Nothing more. Why did I do well on the MCAT? I learned the material and recalled it on exam day. She took the same classes (somewhere else), got significantly better grades and didn't apparently learn the material well enough to remember it on exam day, or the next time. Why? who really knows, but she doesn't have problems taking tests. I would suggest that it is possible that it related to how the material was taught, and what was expected at one school vs another. Perhaps not, you're free to disagree.
BTW, the MCAT doesn't test "the MCAT", whatever that means. It tests physics, chemistry, biological sciences, writing ability, etc. (unless it has changed) The academic rigor of one's undergraduate university could certainly prepare someone better than another for this exam.

What the MCAT tests you on is vastly different from what the exams your professors wrote tested you on. Unless you tailor your MCAT studying to the style of the MCAT, even if you were an academic superstar, you run the risk of potentially performing poorly. This doesn't say much about the rigor of your college courses. At most, it would mean that you mapped out your MCAT studying poorly, that's it.

The concepts of physics, chem, orgo, etc, are the same no matter where you learn them. In my opinion, performance in classes and the MCAT is largely dependent on the individual student rather than the teacher. You can perform amazingly in classes all you want, but if you don't carefully plan out your MCAT studying, there's a good chance you won't be happy with the score you get. You're free to disagree with me if you want.

 

[deleted357625]

I would personally go to the more prestigious school and not worry about the cost of medical school because you always have loans and grants you can use then pay it off slowly, you might be in debt after medical school, but you will be working during residency and beyond that, so ultimately you can slowly pay off your debt.

 

[alyssadk]

This post compelled me to try (again) to look up information on my school. I attend a regional campus of Ohio University. It's a state school, but the prestige isn't even anywhere near Ohio State. I've previously been accepted as a transfer to both OSU and Case Western, but both of these schools are around $25,000+ worth of debt per year, whereas my podunk school is around $4500 a year.

But even when I look it up on mdapplicants, there are only 3 listed applicants from OU. One of them looked pretty strong - 39 MCAT, 3.9, etc, and was rejected by some schools I would like to go to. I can't help but feel as though I should start to worry. The biology department website has information on going to med school, but no statistics as far as acceptances to any masters degree programs.

I know prestige may not matter, but when it comes to my school it seems to because I can't find ANYTHING about it. What should I do?

 

[TFS]

It can only help.

 

[Musclemass]

This post compelled me to try (again) to look up information on my school. I attend a regional campus of Ohio University. It's a state school, but the prestige isn't even anywhere near Ohio State. I've previously been accepted as a transfer to both OSU and Case Western, but both of these schools are around $25,000+ worth of debt per year, whereas my podunk school is around $4500 a year.

But even when I look it up on mdapplicants, there are only 3 listed applicants from OU. One of them looked pretty strong - 39 MCAT, 3.9, etc, and was rejected by some schools I would like to go to. I can't help but feel as though I should start to worry. The biology department website has information on going to med school, but no statistics as far as acceptances to any masters degree programs.

I know prestige may not matter, but when it comes to my school it seems to because I can't find ANYTHING about it. What should I do?

Med schools know that the matriculants they're looking for can come from any school. The higher tier undergrad schools (I hate to use that term) simply tend to have a higher percentage of such students and a tighter range of capability from top to bottom. There are always great students at average schools for various reasons, just fewer of them than at "better" schools.

Assuming the other aspects of your app "package" have been well covered (GPA, ECs, etc), your opportunity to compete successfully with people from schools of higher reputation will be by having a great MCAT score.

Ignore stats you find, those apply to others, not to you. Don't worry about the school you're at. Work hard to make yourself absolutely the best applicant you can possibly be and you'll do fine. Don't take the MCAT until you're ready to kill it, and don't apply until you've covered all the bases. Good luck.

 

[GrigoriPerelman]

Applicant one : GPA 3.5 College: CalTech
Applicant two : GPA 3.7 College: XYZ State

Both with similar EC's and clinical experience

I am fairy certain the adcoms would prefer the CalTech student.

Also you have to realize that there is a reason a top ranked school is top ranked ! (overall)
-Better quality education
-Better overall education
-Better faculty
-Better facilities (prominent labs)
-Better funding for research

Not to mention there is a self selection factor here an average pre-med applicant will be stronger academically that an average pre-med from XYZ
State

Having said all that if you are an outlier (3.9 XYZ State w/ Great research extremely motivated student) you can and probably will be accepted over a Harvard 3.5gpa divinity major !

 

[WashMe]

This post compelled me to try (again) to look up information on my school. I attend a regional campus of Ohio University. It's a state school, but the prestige isn't even anywhere near Ohio State. I've previously been accepted as a transfer to both OSU and Case Western, but both of these schools are around $25,000+ worth of debt per year, whereas my podunk school is around $4500 a year.

But even when I look it up on mdapplicants, there are only 3 listed applicants from OU. One of them looked pretty strong - 39 MCAT, 3.9, etc, and was rejected by some schools I would like to go to. I can't help but feel as though I should start to worry. The biology department website has information on going to med school, but no statistics as far as acceptances to any masters degree programs.

I know prestige may not matter, but when it comes to my school it seems to because I can't find ANYTHING about it. What should I do?

Don't worry, I know that guy (😉) and his interviews didn't go well at the state schools. Several other students from OU were accepted at OSU, Cincinnati, Wright State, Case Western, etc. that year.

If you're even an average student, you'll be OK at the Ohio schools. One guy that got into OSU was certainly just an average pre-med, even for OU.

 

[NickNaylor]

Stop worrying so much about this, jeez. Unless you're willing to transfer from your current institution, what's the point in worrying about it? Do the best you can with the hand you're dealt. I don't attend what I would consider a "prestigious" university (some of the interviewers I've had haven't even heard of it), yet I've gotten interviews at several top 20 schools. If you're a star student, you'll be a star student at Podunk U or at Harvard. It doesn't matter.

That said, I have absolutely no doubt that students from top schools have an advantage. I don't refute that at all. But I don't think that students from less renowned schools are actively discriminated against or looked at less favorably strictly because of the university they come from.

 

[morning]

I would personally go to the more prestigious school and not worry about the cost of medical school because you always have loans and grants you can use then pay it off slowly, you might be in debt after medical school, but you will be working during residency and beyond that, so ultimately you can slowly pay off your debt.

I would consider going deeply into debt during an undergrad a very significant DISADVANTAGE, and it's scary to see all these kids who went from high school straight to college arguing that it's not. You have absolutely no basis for that argument. Most of my friends have graduated college by now...some of them quite awhile ago. All of them hate their debt, even the ones with very low debt. This is not the kind of economic climate in which you want to be down $100,000+ for your education. Especially not if you're going to add 300k more debt in medical school. Do you know what "interest rates" are? Do you have any experience paying back ANY kind of loan?

 

[Champaigne]

How much it matters varies from school to school. At many places it matters very little. Come out with a high GPA and blow away the MCAT and you'll be competitive anywhere from any undergrad.

IMO this is exactly correct! 4 years ago I was in OP's same situation...I opted for the state school for monetary reasons and I don't feel it has hindered me. You're going to get out of your undergrad what you put into it.

This being said, if two identical students apply to a medical school (same 4.0 gpa, same mcat score, same extracurricular experiences) and one is from Harvard and the other is from a low tier state school. I would imagine the person from Harvard is going to get in over the state school student. However there are so many steps between freshman year and medschool matriculation (e.g. organic chemistry, other pre-reqs, research experience, clinical experience, volunteer experience, life experiences, taking mcat, writing a good personal statement, writing great secondary essays, choosing which schools to apply to, rocking the interview) that I don't think prestige is anywhere near the biggest deciding factor for whether someone will get in to a great school...

 

[littlealex]

people always say prestige doesn't matter, but most of the top schools have >50% of their class from ranked universities.

 

[georgearms]

I go to school at a top 20 outside of TX. I think the name has only been mildly helpful at interviews in TX, since most interviewees are from UT, A&M, Baylor...and BYU for some reason, haha. Probably stood out just a bit more, but honestly it was probably inconsequential. At UT San Antonio HSC the Dean of Admissions told me that he loves students from my school, because they usually do well in med school.

I think I could've found similar research, service, and leisure opportunities at any big state school in TX as the ones I've found here. Since I wanted a smaller and quieter undergrad experience, I chose to go elsewhere. Rice has a more academic feel than A&M does, but I don't think you will have a hard time finding opportunities to help you on your way to med school.

 

[telecaster]

Hi! I'm trying to decide between these two schools, but I'm not sure if im basing this on the right scale. One school is a lot more recognized than the other, but I'm eligible for free tuition at this other school.

My family think I should just go to the more respected one, but I dont want to accumulate debt before I even go to medical school just to satisfy my ego. And after looking at the tuition, I'm probably going to be atleast 40 thousand down the hole if I opt for that school.

So in summary, does undergraduate prestige matter?

Only 40K for the entire 4 years? or just one year? That's nothing. If you can go to a top-notch school for only 40K, I'd go to the top-notcher... I'd go to the place where you fit-in most comfortably. However, your final GPA, MCAT, and life experiences will be what will get you into med school. I've known Harvard grads who are in the 2nd or 3rd round of applying to med schools.

 

[45408]

people always say prestige doesn't matter, but most of the top schools have >50% of their class from ranked universities.

People always say this, and I don't think they ever read these threads.

Smart people get into competitive schools and then get into competitive med schools. Unless you can show that the same person with the same intelligence would not be able to get into a med school as a result of going to one school compared to another, then what you're saying has no bearing on this discussion.

 

[45408]

Also you have to realize that there is a reason a top ranked school is top ranked ! (overall)
-Better quality education
-Better overall education
-Better faculty
-Better facilities (prominent labs)
-Better funding for research

based on what? Most rankings can't really quantify the quality of an education (which is inherently rather qualitative rather than quantitative, don't you think?), so they mostly go off the research and faculty.

No doubt that the research at Awesome Research Private University is top notch and phenomenal, but whether that has any bearing on how well you learn the right hand rule in physics is pretty iffy.

 

[riseNshine]

Won't you guys agree that it's somewhat annoying that schools don't really care about the name of the school though..For instance, if you attend Berkeley, there's obviously more competition to get those A's instead of let's say a CAL state, where it's easier to maintain a high gpa. In my opinion, it's such a flawed system because a 3.5 gpa from a top school should be equivalent, if not better than a 3.9 from a state school. I know a lot of kids who just breeze through the cal states and get A's with minimal effort. I guess the MCAT works to balance things out I guess.

 

[bobow98]

Won't you guys agree that it's somewhat annoying that schools don't really care about the name of the school though..For instance, if you attend Berkeley, there's obviously more competition to get those A's instead of let's say a CAL state, where it's easier to maintain a high gpa. In my opinion, it's such a flawed system because a 3.5 gpa from a top school should be equivalent, if not better than a 3.9 from a state school. I know a lot of kids who just breeze through the cal states and get A's with minimal effort. I guess the MCAT works to balance things out I guess.

I don't know about 3.5-> 3.9 b/c that's a rather sharp increase...

But i think a 3.5->3.7 would be pretty realistic for many adcoms. A 3.9 or 4.0 at any place is not EASY b/c there is still very little room for error. That said, you answered your own question. The MCAT serves as a pretty effective equalizer. A 3.6/34 from a very competitive well known school would probably look better than a 3.9/28 from rando school.

 

[gravitywave]

people always say prestige doesn't matter, but most of the top schools have >50% of their class from ranked universities.

this is a really dumb thing to say. I mean, seriously?

 

[morning]

Only 40K for the entire 4 years? or just one year? That's nothing. If you can go to a top-notch school for only 40K, I'd go to the top-notcher... I'd go to the place where you fit-in most comfortably. However, your final GPA, MCAT, and life experiences will be what will get you into med school. I've known Harvard grads who are in the 2nd or 3rd round of applying to med schools.

Only in an undergrad's world is an extra 40k "nothing."

This is not pretend money. You will have to pay it back, plus interest.

 

[km11]

Of course it matters, but it matters very little in comparison to your overall application. Coming from a top university will not excuse a subpar GPA and a great GPA would not be diminished by having a run-of-the-mill state school school attached to it. HOWEVER, if you have a great GPA *and* you're from a top school, you'll look just a little bit better. On the flip side, if you're from a really mediocre university and you have a really mediocre gpa, you better have a lot of extra stuff to prove you're up to snuff.

My school has a ton of students from both ends of the undergraduate spectrum. But when I'm interviewing kids, I definitely pay attention to the undergraduate name. And I've been told by many executive commmittee members that they pay attention to the UG reputation when considering the academic profile

 

[Musclemass]

based on what? Most rankings can't really quantify the quality of an education (which is inherently rather qualitative rather than quantitative, don't you think?), so they mostly go off the research and faculty.

No doubt that the research at Awesome Research Private University is top notch and phenomenal, but whether that has any bearing on how well you learn the right hand rule in physics is pretty iffy.

You sound quite bitter.

Whether you think it's justified or not, you know very well yourself that there's a widely held expectation that graduates of top schools (where admission is most selective) are more capable and accomplished (on average) than graduates of schools of lower reputation. It's part of the reason why such school have so many applicants.

There are fallacies in any broad assumption, but perception is reality. It doesn't have to be, but it's what people think. It is what it is.

 

[IvyHopeful20]

I went to public u. I have interviews at all the top schools. Stats >>>>> prestige.

Go for free.

 

[HoosierDoc]

Four years ago, I was in this position. Opted for a full ride plus scholarship at a state school, and haven't regretted it. I have gotten plenty of interview invitations to great medical schools, and while many of my fellow interviewees may be from more "prestigious" schools- I think it's much more about what you do at the school you go to. Get good grades, rock the MCAT, and get involved in activities and volunteering. Where you go won't be a major factor, and in some cases more varied opportunities are available at larger schools. In the end, go where you find appealing programs and activities in which would would be passionate about pursuing. Best of luck!

 

[Corpsman Up]

Yes, undergrad prestige does matter to an extent, how could it not? I dont care what anyone on this board says, adcoms do not look at some never heard of community college the same as they do a well established, well respected school with a history of putting out strong med school candidates.

That being said, I think it only matters when you are looking at the two extremes. In your case, i think you would be better off to take the free tuition. If you go to the well respected school bc you just want to get into med school....but then in 2yrs decide you want nothing to do with medical school, you will possibly be stuck with a lot of debt. I know youre probably thinking "no, nothin will change my mind about medicine"; but the pre-med process tends to burn a lot of people out on the idea

 

[gree]

Having said all that if you are an outlier (3.9 XYZ State w/ Great research extremely motivated student) you can and probably will be accepted over a Harvard 3.5gpa divinity major !

There is no divinity major at Harvard, but there is a Harvard Divinity School. I think the person with a 3.5gpa from HDS will likely be picked ahead of most regardless of school, with the possible exception of someone from Mars.

 

[lord_jeebus]

I was on an adcom. Undergraduate prestige was a factor in the admissions process. I'm not sure why some people are so insistent that it wouldn't be. As with any factor in the process, it can be overcome.

 

[IvyHopeful20]

There is no divinity major at Harvard, but there is a Harvard Divinity School. I think the person with a 3.5gpa from HDS will likely be picked ahead of most regardless of school, with the possible exception of someone from Mars.

That's BS.

Of course it matters. But a free ride >>> the difference it makes. Do well at state school and you can get into ANY school.

 

[45408]

You sound quite bitter.

Based on....?

Whether you think it's justified or not, you know very well yourself that there's a widely held expectation that graduates of top schools (where admission is most selective) are more capable and accomplished (on average) than graduates of schools of lower reputation. It's part of the reason why such school have so many applicants.

There are fallacies in any broad assumption, but perception is reality. It doesn't have to be, but it's what people think. It is what it is.

And none of what you just said contradicts what I said. My assertion is that they're at top schools because they're top students, not that they're top students because they're at top schools.

 

[FlowRate]

Only in an undergrad's world is an extra 40k "nothing."

This is not pretend money. You will have to pay it back, plus interest.

(although, technically, fiat money kinda is pretend money, based entirely off of debt... but that's aside from the point)

Four years ago, I was in this position. Opted for a full ride plus scholarship at a state school, and haven't regretted it. I have gotten plenty of interview invitations to great medical schools, and while many of my fellow interviewees may be from more "prestigious" schools- I think it's much more about what you do at the school you go to. Get good grades, rock the MCAT, and get involved in activities and volunteering. Where you go won't be a major factor, and in some cases more varied opportunities are available at larger schools. In the end, go where you find appealing programs and activities in which would would be passionate about pursuing. Best of luck!

Based on....?


And none of what you just said contradicts what I said. My assertion is that they're at top schools because they're top students, not that they're top students because they're at top schools.

I was on an adcom. Undergraduate prestige was a factor in the admissions process. I'm not sure why some people are so insistent that it wouldn't be. As with any factor in the process, it can be overcome.

👍👍👍

They said it all for me.