Undergraduate record and specializing...

[marshall]

---

Members do not see this ad.

To Marshall,

When I first talked to my mentor, a professor in the OMFS dept., about my interest in OMFS, one of the first things he asked me about was my undergraduate record.

I suppose that at least for the MD-track programs, the undergraduate record is deemed quite important. The OMS dept. needs its residents to have good undergraduate records to clear medical school admissions.

I thought this would be a good topic to discuss... Above is what another poster mentioned about the subject (very useful). Is it true that a poor undergrad record can keep you out of a specialization spot? How about other than OMFS? Is it really that important if you did well in dental school? Is it an emphasis or more of a glance ("WOW S/HE HAD A 2.9 NO OMFS 4 U")?

Cheers,
Marshall

 

[c132]

Board scores is it man. If you get a 97 98 or 99, your in no matter what your GPA is.

 

[Yah-E]

Marshall:

Yes, your undergraduate record will come into play depending on what type of OMFS residency you apply to. From what I learned in Journals, OMFS faculty, and residents, the MD-Integrated/Required residencies will look closely at your undergraduate record to further screen applicants. For example, when I was considering applying to an externship at UCLA, as an externship requirement, they require an undergraduate record of 3.4 above and beyond that you must be Top 10 of your dental class, at least 90 on Part 1, blah, blah, blah....

Needless to say, I was not qualified for their externship based on my undergraduate GPA and I'm not in Top 10 of my class. So if I'm not qualified to apply to their externship based on numbers, do you think I'd apply there for a residency spot? Of course not! I would be wasting my money, right?

Now, many recent accepted 4th year seniors have told me that no OMFS interviews that they've gone have asked about their undergradute records, this could be because that they had a decent undergrad GPA and there was no point bring it up. My Undergraduate GPA will come back to hunt me and bite me in the @ss when I apply for OMFS residencies, I'm sure of it! Now how much of a "bite", that is remained to be seen!

My other aspects of my future OMFS application are very strong, I have a strong CV, but my undergraduate GPA could be my killer if I'm set on the MD Integrated/Required residencies (which I'm not).

Back to final studies....5 more to go (including 2 today)!!

 

[marshall]

VANDERBILT
"Competitive undergraduate GPA; "

LLU
"An undergraduate record with a grade point average of B (3.00) or better in the overall program and in the field of the major" --all specialities including 4 year OMFS

I found those while googling the subject.... hard to say sometimes because people might say 'undergraduate' and be referring to dental school. They all say they want dental school and undergraduate transcripts but I don't know how important undergraduate are.

Cheers,
Marshall

 

[drPheta]

Whether the UG GPA is calculated or not, it's complete garbage. What guage does an undergrad GPA give us on a particular candidate's performance? If it is in fact an issue that we will have haunt us, it should be something brought up to ASDA and the specialties' respective academic organizations. My undergraduate GPA is mediocre, at best. Yet, my dental school GPA is comparatively pretty hardcore, at the moment. On the other hand, many students who spanked undergrad can barely hack the dental school work load and barely make it by with Cs and Bs.

Obviously, this doesn't apply to everyone, but it's a fairly prevalent situation that I notice. Personally, they should base your credentials upon your accomplishments done during your dental career. Additionally, what's the difference between an Economics GPA and a Neuroscience GPA? I know first hand that both majors are completely out of each other's league when it comes to difficulty. Furthermore, each university has different requirements for their undergraduates, as far as GE requirements go, and this will also influence the student's performance in their major.

So many factors make an undergraduate GPA a piss poor indicator for dental specialty consideration.

BEYOND ALL THAT, if the argument is made that so many applicants apply as being competitive, what is wrong with sheer drive and passion for the profession? If that candidate was so "equivalent" to his other competitors, look into the actual context of his research, externships, courses, extra-cirriculars, and actual dental-related background.

 

[Bitters]

As for OMFS and where your UG record comes into play is completely dependant on the institution to which you are applying. The majority of 4 year programs only slightly consider it if at all. The most attention is paid in the 6 year dual degree programs. Even with these there is considerable variations and factors that come into play.

1. Clout of the program. If the program is well respected, and has produced quality residents, the medical school sometimes give them cart blanche to choose residents.

2. Quality of the medical school. Generally the more prestigous the name of the medical school, the more control they will have over which residents the OMFS program are allowed to choose. Dont expect Harvard, Columbia, UCSF etc to admit someone with a poor UG record.

Don't despair if your UG record is poor and you have your heart set on a six year program. Anything is possible, you must do your research and find out the evaluation methods of schools.

As far as my program goes, as well as the majority of programs that I am familar with the general trend in choosing residents is as follows.

1. Absolute minimum on part 1 boards 90. Must be extraordinary circumstances to waver on this one.

2. Interview. How well would this person fit into the program. Will we enjoy working with this person for the next six years.

3. Enthusiasm for the program, does the applicant want to come here. Do they know about the program, i.e. types of procedures, faculty interests etc..

4. Externships, while by no means are you not considered because you didn't do one at our particular program. If you did, and we liked you, you definitely have a leg up on the competition. Also, if you did, and we didn't like you, your dead, Board scores and class rank be damned.

In my two years of interviewing potential residents, the discussion has never come up in regard to choosing a resident based on UG record. No one would ever say we should take this person over that based on what they did as an UG.

The medical schools will let the programs know which applicant are acceptable if that is the agreement they have. I dont want to say never, but it us unlikely that you will receive an interview unless the proper vetting has taken place.

 

[sxr71]

Quote:

"In my two years of interviewing potential residents, the discussion has never come up in regard to choosing a resident based on UG record. No one would ever say we should take this person over that based on what they did as an UG."

Is this fact based on the fact that everyone under consideration had acceptable undergrad GPAs, or did anyone have a "lower" GPA? Thanks!

 

[Bitters]

I've seen UG records that vary from 3.0-4.0. Whats acceptable? Who knows. Some people could get into med school on their UG record alone, others maybe not.

It's just not that important from the residency point of view. Do a search on Joms.org and look at the recent stats regarding program selection factors June 2000 I think. Those within the program are more interested in board scores, class rank. If its a six year program they must believe you can pass step 1 of the usmle. There was also a study showing a definite difference in the passage rates for those above and below 90 on Part 1. A program cant afford to have you fail Step 1.

 

[oms fan]

I think looking at an undergrad GPA is bogus also. The only reason I can think of is that since they don't require us to take the MCAT, it is their "only" indicator of success in the med program...total load of crap! If this is the case, it looks like just another instance where our med collegues discredit the rigors of a dental education. If someone can get through a dental education with enough success to make themselves an attractive applicant to an OMS program...it should be a no-brainer that they can handle the med school curriculum. Med students aren't superior to dental students and vice versa. The predictors of whether an applicant can handle a med curriculum should be numbers from dental school: grades (ranking), and boards...while at the same time being VERY active in their school. Man, it is a bummer that programs put any weight into undergrad GPA. 🙁

 

[groundhog]

I think I might have a take on the obsessions with UG GPA and 90+ on Board I scores for OMS programs. When you talk to some dental students after about the second year you will often find that they are starting to get a bit burnt out on school in general and are looking forward to getting that DDS/DMD and joining the workforce. Since OMS means another 4 or 6 years after the DDS/DMD, perhaps the adcoms for those programs believe a continuous good GPA throughout both UG and dental school plus a high Board I score is a good indicator of those folks who still have enough oomph left inside to successfully continue on with more schooling without the benefit of a much needed mental rest break in one form or another.

 

[drPheta]

I think I might have a take on the obsessions with UG GPA and 90+ on Board I scores for OMS programs. When you talk to some dental students after about the second year you will often find that they are starting to get a bit burnt out on school in general and are looking forward to getting that DDS/DMD and joining the workforce. Since OMS means another 4 or 6 years after the DDS/DMD, perhaps the adcoms for those programs believe a continuous good GPA throughout both UG and dental school plus a high Board I score is a good indicator of those folks who still have enough oomph left inside to successfully continue on with more schooling without the benefit of a much needed mental rest break in one form or another.

Perhaps, but if they were easily burnt out in the first place, I'm pretty sure the idea of any prospective 4-6 additional years would simply defer them from pursuing any such programs in the first place. EVERYONE applying knows that specialty education is rigorous. Plus, everyone applying to specialty education is already prequalified for additional rigors w/o burnout because of the extra oomph they put out in extra curriculars.

 

[gryffindor]

Just posting what I saw....

We have a bulletin board outside the OMS dept. with 2 OMS externship opportunities posted. One is for a hospital in Urbana-Champaign (sp?), Illinois, and the other is at Mass General. One of these two externships (I think the Illinois one) specified among the list of requirements that a minimum 3.0 GPA out of 4.0 in undergrad is expected of the externship applicants.

So I guess undergrad GPA is a slightly bigger deal in OMS. I really don't think it's the same for ortho and I'd be willing to bet that if a candidate applied with a 98 on the boards, the <3.0 undergrad GPA may be overlooked by some of those programs posting minimum 3.0 GPAs of all applicants.

The externship letters also said that externships had to be arranged about 1 month prior to when you want to do it, so if anyone is interested in pursuing these particular externships this summer, post here and I'll go back and get the specifics.

 

[Extraction]

Like Bitters said UG GPA is primarily important to OMS/MD programs with competitive medical school (ie Vandy)

Board Scores 90+, top 10%, GOOD rec letters from OMS faculty with national name recommendation, 7+weeks of externship (not at your own dental school) and diverse CV are key for landing interviews. After that it is based on personality and ambition ie will I get along with this person for the next 4-6 years (7 at UCSF). There was a study published by Miloro (program director at Nebraska) where NBI of 90 or less were twice as likely to fail USMLE and NBI 95+ almost never failed USMLE compared to other OMS/MD residents. I interviewed at alot of places for the 2004 match and talked to alot of other candidates. You can get into a program with less credentials, but it will probably not be one of the elite or highly competetive programs.

Another word of advice: pick externships at places you would like to do an OMS residency... if they know and like you they will take you over a candidate they just met at the interview.

 

[Yah-E]

Just got an email from Emory OMFS residency director today. He said that a 3.5 UG GPA or very close to that is required for his 6-year MD-integrated program because Emory medical school holds a separate interview and what they have to say counts a lot in Emory OMFS resident selection.

So we know Emory OMFS listens to the Emory Medical and if you don't have a 3.5 GPA or close to that, don't apply for the 6-year program!

There goes one 6-year residency that I will not apply to! 👎

 

[shariq]

Second that andy
I had a 3.45 from undergrad, and they told me to take a hike.

OH well who cares.

 

[gryffindor]

Second that andy
I had a 3.45 from undergrad, and they told me to take a hike.

OH well who cares.

That's pretty considerate of them to tell you now. You could have wasted the time & $$$ to apply there only to get a rejection letter next year with no reason given of why you weren't considered.

 

[Yah-E]

Second that andy
I had a 3.45 from undergrad, and they told me to take a hike.

OH well who cares.

Are you serious? I would think a 3.45 is "close to 3.5" in my book. Did you apply this past cycle? Or did you inquire like I did for this upcoming cycle?

 

[shariq]

did apply thru pass. They did not even send me anything. Only when i inquired(by calling them did they tell me that i did not meet the min GPA). Then they told me to apply to the 4 yr program instead.

So thats what i will do next year. I really do not learn 🙂