Unemployed USCitizen Docs and INS's feeling towards sponsoring hospitals?

[Erica Lewinski]

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How do the folks here feel about this subject: Unemployed US Citizen Doctors and INS's feeling towards sponsoring hospitals?

It seems there are zillions of UNEMPLOYED Medical School Graduates who are US Citizens, that can not find a residency job and at the same time, there are hundreds of hospitals in the good old USA, openly claiming that they sponser H1 etc. visas, for granting these same residency jobs to foreigners. How does the INS feel about this, you think? And, do you think that, this is a classical example of US Citizens' tax-dollars being directly used, to pull the rug out from, under their own feet?

 

[doc05]

what are you talking about?? any US citizen MD can get a residency if they want it, assuming they've passed step 1. that residency may be fp in a lousy location, but it's still a residency.

 

[ys]

Not quite, any US citizen AMG not any US citizen IMG.

 

[MelissaRichards]

Met a gas-pumping attendant at a gas station in CA, who seemed like a really nice looking and polite man. On conversing, learned that he was a medical doctor graduated oversees and could not find a residency here despite being a US citizen, and eventually, resorted to the present occupation! On asking "how come this", he replied that he is not alone ... has about a dozen doc friends in the city alone, doing the same. Its estimated that there are about 5000 docs like this who are unable to find a residency every year and this has been going on for at least 14 years, as per his knowledge. Many have given up all hope. He regreted that, he and all his relatives- Mom, Dad, brother-in-law etc.- are working here and paying taxes to fund others' medical jobs. But, still, the man said he considers himself a bit more fortunate than others ... some of the IMG docs he knew, couldn't take the humiliation of continual rejections and started even deteriorating mentally. I felt so sad... what a waste of human potential here!

 

[beyond all hope]

Remember the big cut before med school was getting into med school. Lots of people who could have been great doctors never made it into med school.

We expect that everyone who has an MD will do a specialty and practice, but that is just not the case. I'm sure a few people every year either consciously or subconsciously decide they're not going to do a residency, out of fear or whatever.

I believe that 99.9% of people that can graduate med school could get a residency if they were willing to do FP in Nebraska or somesuch. Many just won't go that far. There are hundreds of residency positions that go unfilled every year, even some in prestigious fields.

Also remember that a lot of people who don't get a residency the first year will get one a year or two later. Happened to a person in my class.

 

[benjee]

I believe what melissarichards said b/c i personally have a friend who is in the same situation, not able to match.And there are at least 2 residents in the program where i 'm at are not citizen and graduated more than 10 yrs ago , with so so board scores are doing residency now which are funded by US taxpayers including those unmatched US citizen docs.the program is not even at rural area!! I'm sure this program has at least hundreds applicants --including US citizen docs IMG. I really do not understand how they get matched here?Anyway, I guess connection is playing important role .

 

[GeddyLee]

Met a gas-pumping attendant at a gas station in CA, who seemed like a really nice looking and polite man. On conversing, learned that he was a medical doctor graduated oversees and could not find a residency here despite being a US citizen, and eventually, resorted to the present occupation! On asking "how come this", he replied that he is not alone ... has about a dozen doc friends in the city alone, doing the same. Its estimated that there are about 5000 docs like this who are unable to find a residency every year and this has been going on for at least 14 years, as per his knowledge. Many have given up all hope. He regreted that, he and all his relatives- Mom, Dad, brother-in-law etc.- are working here and paying taxes to fund others' medical jobs. But, still, the man said he considers himself a bit more fortunate than others ... some of the IMG docs he knew, couldn't take the humiliation of continual rejections and started even deteriorating mentally. I felt so sad... what a waste of human potential here!

I'm sure if he lowered his standards a bit he could attain one of the many unfilled FP residency positions that are open every year. And yes, I think it is fair that US citizens who complete medical school in foreign countries can't compete for top residency positions.

 

[Annette]

Somebody I know was looking into practicing in Finland but gave up because they were an American medical graduate. I think that some European countries only recognize medical degrees from their country and other EU countries. In the US, foreign degrees are recognized for licensure. This is unfair.

Then the US would have to do without about 20% of its physician workforce.

 

[afmsboy]

Then the US would have to do without about 20% of its physician workforce.

Am I just being cynical in suspecting that our "US IMG are not getting jobs that foreigners are" posts are coming from the same person. Three different IDs with little or no posting history, clearly very ignorant about the match, residency positions and funding for residencies. Many legitimate questions may be raised by the posts if one was to accept them at face value. One of those questions would be : how qualified are these US IMGs (MCAT scores, USMLE scores, schools attended)?

 

[Erica Lewinski]

[

Then the US would have to do without about 20% of its physician workforce.

Looking at the oversupply of physicians currently in the US, it seems, US can
do without 60% of that workforce ... of course, the opinion is a bit tainted ...
but, ask most US citizen, average IMG-MDs, who are trying to get a residency
in the US, so that, their long-cherished life-dream of being a doc is not
simply wasted, after those tens of thousands of pages of memorizations
and so that, they find a proper means of survival! Of course its not a right,
but, a priviledge to be treated better than the blue-collar masses (understood), but,
at least, we as a group (US Citizen MGs schooled offshore) need not be
treated so poorly, almost like a welfare-recipient, when we knock on the doors
for a possible vacancy ... the doors can be shut quietly, instead of
being slammed so harshly on the face! When asked about having any
clinical observerships (volunteer) openings, most say, they don't allow
that, but, they surely need that almost everywhere, as a
residency admission pre-condition!

They would like to accept a brash 27 years old, since, s/he may not be
more than 5 years away from graduation, but, would refuse a humble
33-years old who is willing to work hard, since, more than 6 years have
elapsed after graduation!
What a scared soul got to do? Is there any FP/IM etc. residency place,
that would like to pay only $1 as a token salary, for a year's work, but, at
least offer me a place to work and let me move on towards my goal? At this
point, I'm willing to take it and will be happy to get it. Any suggestions
welcome. Thanks in advance.

 

[BellKicker]

Erica,

Did you check out that list I linked to in the IM forum? Was I mistaken in that there had to be 50 programs you could apply to? I honestly don't see why you should be worse off than so many other applicants.

 

[Erica Lewinski]

Is it just me or does Erica seem like a reincarnation of this chick (Jasminegab) who kept posting about how she was doing some correspondance med school in Africa. She either seems like a troll or someone who is seriously mentally challenged.

In my opinion you don't deserve a residency spot just because you are a US citizen. If you didn't go to a decent foreign medical school the fact that you are a citizen is not going to make up for it.

FYI: I was schooled in the second-best, one of the most reputed Med Schools, in the Central Asia, where the pre-med admission was based solely on merit alone.

CyberTammy: Before flaming someone, at least make sure your target is the right person (and/or read, at least, a few of their previous posts). Thanks.

 

[fireflyrxn]

[
They would like to accept a brash 27 years old, since, s/he may not be
more than 5 years away from graduation, but, would refuse a humble
33-years old who is willing to work hard, since, more than 6 years have
elapsed after graduation!
What a scared soul got to do? Is there any FP/IM etc. residency place,
that would like to pay only $1 as a token salary, for a year's work, but, at
least offer me a place to work and let me move on towards my goal? At this
point, I'm willing to take it and will be happy to get it. Any suggestions
welcome. Thanks in advance.

not that i want to be a dingus or anything, but perhaps your communication skills need work and that's why you can't get a spot? your posts are so unintelligible as to make them nearly unreadable.

if your applications are written the same way your posts are, there's probably a good reason no one will interview you. if i were a PD, i'd dump your application into the bin after reading your first "paragraph". i suspect this may be clouding your interpretation of events.

i suggest you get someone who knows how to write properly to edit your application and letters so that they at least convey what you're hoping to express.

cheers
ffrxn

 

[tofurious]

FYI: I was schooled in the second-best, one of the most reputed Med Schools, in the Central Asia, where the pre-med admission was based solely on merit alone.

Isn't it a shame then that people who didn't even come from this "second-best" medical school and who do not have the citizenship advantage are evidently having better luck in finding residency than you?

US IMGs who complain about not getting into residencies are not willing to go into FM, go to Nebraska, or go to community hospitals. They expect to compete with US seniors and USMGs, yet their credentials are nowhere near where they think they are. The ONLY realistic solution to this problem is the proposed 2nd match for people who didn't match in the regular match. If you argue that US citizens should match first in that second match before the IMGs, then you will dramatically cut down the number of whining US IMGs without a significant drop in quality.

 

[MustafaMond]

Is it just me or does Erica seem like a reincarnation of this chick (Jasminegab) who kept posting about how she was doing some correspondance med school in Africa..

Jasmine was not a chick, she was a transvestite, ex-convict, rapist.
Good call.
I bet Erica is her.

Her "I will work in a sewer, please does anyone know any programs in the sewer" threads are getting annoying and disturbing.

 

[Apollyon]

FYI: I was schooled in the second-best, one of the most reputed Med Schools, in the Central Asia, where the pre-med admission was based solely on merit alone.

I thought the second best school in Asia was Aga Khan, in Pakistan. There are >10 Aga Khan graduates at Duke. If you went there, and are a US citizen, and can't find a residency anywhere, you either simply have not ever looked at, much less applied to any programs anywhere, or are not disclosing some huge flaw (caught cheating, convicted felon, whatever else). Or, you are completely fictional.

 

[tofurious]

I thought the second best school in Asia was Aga Khan, in Pakistan. There are >10 Aga Khan graduates at Duke. If you went there, and are a US citizen, and can't find a residency anywhere, you either simply have not ever looked at, much less applied to any programs anywhere, or are not disclosing some huge flaw (caught cheating, convicted felon, whatever else). Or, you are completely fictional.

So which one is the best school? Is there a US News ranking of medical schools in Asia?

 

[euromd]

So which one is the best school? Is there a US News ranking of medical schools in Asia?

Why would there be a US News ranking of medical schools in Asia?

In the new today, CNN attempts another world domination.

-S

 

[edinOH]

I nominate this thread for the "Most Stupid Thread of the Year" award.

 

[BellKicker]

So which one is the best school? Is there a US News ranking of medical schools in Asia?

😀

 

[ERMudPhud]

I nominate this thread for the "Most Stupid Thread of the Year" award.

even dumber thread

 

[Erica Lewinski]

... you either simply have not ever looked at, much less applied to any programs anywhere ...

Yes, I did not look at or apply to any programs in the past 5 years.

 

[nradsoit3]

even dumber thread

By far the dumbest thread of them all is raging on in the Allopathic Forum right now:


http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=145937 😕

 

[Winged Scapula]

While all of these are dumb, none of them reaches the sheer lunacy of the old "my penis is broke" thread. Wish I could find the link. 😀

 

[Apollyon]

So which one is the best school? Is there a US News ranking of medical schools in Asia?

That's what they tell me - they're "#2". They don't say why, or who is #1. I mean, they have to be pretty good, to end up at Duke.

 

[Erica Lewinski]

...
Her "I will work in a sewer, please does anyone know any
programs in the sewer" threads are getting annoying and
disturbing.

What is so disturbing about "working" in the sewer, temporarily,
if that allows a person to continue marching towards her
life-long goal of being able to practice Medicine in the USA?
Ask any Janitor ... all "work" becomes "Golden" with the
right attitude! Or ask Mr. Jim Carrey
(http://www.hellomagazine.com/profiles/jimcarrey/) who indeed
worked as a janitor! Every journey has to start somewhere
with the first step! For those who were born with a silver-spoon
in their mouth, the story may be different; but, for those
who were born to the less-fortunate, who had to send their
ambitious-kid to an offshore medical school (as they couldn't
afford the US Medical school tuition), any opportunity, to be
able to work as a Medical resident, would be welcome with both
hands and a humble posture, as a US Citizen IMG! I'm hopeful
still, since, at the core I believe in this wonderful country
of ours- USA; however, looking at the desperate state, that
some of my friends have reached by now (the friends that have
been applying consistently for the past 5 years) - the situation
does not sound very encouraging. Plus, there is a heavy
fee to pay per application!

 

[Blade28]

For those who were born with a silver-spoon
in their mouth, the story may be different; but, for those
who were born to the less-fortunate, who had to send their
ambitious-kid to an offshore medical school (as they couldn't
afford the US Medical school tuition), any opportunity, to be
able to work as a Medical resident, would be welcome with both
hands and a humble posture, as a US Citizen IMG!

Easy there, many of us US med students were not born with silver spoons in our mouths. I couldn't afford my undergraduate tuition, so I had to take out loans, apply for grants/scholarships, and worked 40 hours/week all four years. Am also living off financial aid now, during med school.

 

[golgi]

I nominate this thread for the "Most Stupid Thread of the Year" award.

LOL good one!

I have a lot of friends from college who were US IMGs who went to the Caribbean, Europe, etc...The thing is 99% seem to get residencies (pretty decent ones actually) even if they have average grades/board scores. Actually, the few who actually fail to score a residency are either...

1. very poor students who had to repeat many classes,fail boards one/twice, etc...thus raising a red flag for even the most desperate of residency programs

or

2. very shady characters who had disciplinary and/or drug problems

Otherwise 99% find a training job right after graduation...

If you are none of the above I wouldn't sweat it

 

[Erica Lewinski]

...The thing is 99% seem to get residencies (pretty decent ones actually) even if they have average grades/board scores...

thanks for the encouraging comments there! But, what about for those
who had to take 3 attempts to clear ECFMG? Any hope for those? And also,
any chances for those, who could not apply for the last 5 years (due
to some family medical reasons)? Who could not work for any clinical
experience in the past 5 years? Any transitional places that
can at least provide an opportunity for getting some clinical experience
(even at very low salary) for such less desirable ones? And, were most
of those 99% that you quote, Caucasians? Any chance percentages
available for dark-skinned blacks
(http://www2.wlu.edu/web/page/normal/295.html
http://www.teenink.com/Past/2001/June/Pride/Colorism.html) out there?

 

[golgi]

thanks for the encouraging comments there! But, what about for those
who had to take 3 attempts to clear ECFMG? Any hope for those? And also,
any chances for those, who could not apply for the last 5 years (due
to some family medical reasons)? Who could not work for any clinical
experience in the past 5 years? Any transitional places that
can at least provide an opportunity for getting some clinical experience
(even at very low salary) for such less desirable ones? And, were most
of those 99% that you quote, Caucasians? Any chance percentages
available for dark-skinned blacks
(http://www2.wlu.edu/web/page/normal/295.html
http://www.teenink.com/Past/2001/June/Pride/Colorism.html) out there?

First, my friends represent all ethnicities so I wouldn't worry. In fact, I think there are a great deal more Asians (Indians, Pakistanis) and Middle Eastern students at these offshore schools. Second of all, my best advice to you since you are 5 yrs out and had some ECFMG trouble, I would strongly encourage you to do a fifth pathway program. I am not sure about the specifics but basically it is like a one year internship that allows you to rotate through many specialties much like a 3rd year med school rotation. I think many of the European offshore school students do this before they apply for residency.

Hope that helps. Good luck!

 

[Winged Scapula]

I don't think ethnicity makes a difference - any prejudice that likely exists for IMGs tends to be directed toward those without good English language skills, IMHO. Females are rapidly becoming the predominant gender in medicine, especially in some fields like Peds, Ob-GYN. A black female would certainly be welcomed in many fields as programs try to increase their diversity. As a white female it could be fairly stated that I don't understand the issues of racism well, but I have not heard of any substantiated claims that a residency position was denied to someone based on their race or gender.

However, there are very few (only 1 or 2) Fifth Pathway programs in existence anymore, and I thought those were designed largely for students from Mexican schools. A search of these forums might give you more information on these and whether you'd be eligible.

You are right that being so far out from clinical experience will create a problem in matching. The match rate is lower even for those just 1 year out of medical school. I do not know why you have had such difficulties in getting your ECFMG certificate, but the fact is that none of us here can tell you where you should apply or which programs will be likely to accept you. Your situation is an extremely unusual one and I doubt any of us have experience here with anything like it. Therefore, the best advice is to a) contact programs and see if they are at all willing to consider you application and b) apply and see what kind of response you get. Every year there are hundreds of positions that go unfilled - if you are as indifferent to where you go or what you do, then perhaps you can obtain one of these.

 

[Erica Lewinski]

Ki'C'x-wrote>> ..
... Every year there are hundreds of positions that go unfilled - if you are as indifferent to where you go or what you do, then perhaps you can obtain one of these."

Do these 100s of positions, that you say go unfilled, go unfilled because a) there are not enough applicants (in totality) than positions -OR- b) because, the PDs' expectation is set rather high, such that, they would rather see these go unfilled, than let some less than stunning candidates, ITO, enter the program? I admit that I'm definitily not the best ones out there, in fact, far from it ... but, as a breathing, living human being, with the decent Med degree in hand, along with ECFMG-Certificate, combined with United States Citizenship and attitude to work very hard, at least there would be one place available for me in the entire 50 states, no? Any place, with a little faith in the heart of a PD, who would like to take a chance on me, I promise I would not disappoint him or her ... I'll work the hardest and try my best, to be effective in all the tasks required of me. Any reco. will be immensely appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Certainly some programs go unfilled because they did not have enough "qualified" applicants , others because they didn't have enough applicants at all and others because the program didn't or didn't want to go deeper into their ROL. It would be hard to tell without contacting the programs.

I understand your desparation and desire to work hard, but again, we cannot give specific advice as to which programs would consider your application seriously. You will never know unless you apply and try to get a spot. You can always apply through ERAS/NRMP and if you aren't getting enough interest, add a few more programs before the deadline.

 

[ys]

Erica, your situation is not unique (your circumstances perhaps). There are many US citizen IMGs that go unmatched each year. You just have to try your luck with the match. You may want to strenghten your CV by doing research/externship/observership etc. Try to establish contacts within academic medicine, get some good LORs, etc. You can identify the chronically unmatched programs by doing a search of the preceeding years' match outcome. There is no magical solution to your situation. Try your best, persevere and realize there are many others in the same situation as yours.

 

[Erica Lewinski]

Its amazing to see the difference in treatment they provide, for granting the workers visas to work in the United States for aliens between the two fields. While the computer industry is being constantly bombarded by the politicians about outsourcing etc., the hospital-side is not much talked about. This must not have done anything but help, a lot of hospital programs get bold enough that, they no longer remain shy about their visa sponsorship [even in the face of thousands of Med-graduated, USMLE-I & II pass, ECFMG-Certified, our own, United States Citizen brothers and sisters, who are ready and able to do the needed work anywhere in the US and are presently unemployed]!

 

[endodoc]

Met a gas-pumping attendant at a gas station in CA, who seemed like a really nice looking and polite man. On conversing, learned that he was a medical doctor graduated oversees and could not find a residency here despite being a US citizen, and eventually, resorted to the present occupation! On asking "how come this", he replied that he is not alone ... has about a dozen doc friends in the city alone, doing the same. Its estimated that there are about 5000 docs like this who are unable to find a residency every year and this has been going on for at least 14 years, as per his knowledge. Many have given up all hope. He regreted that, he and all his relatives- Mom, Dad, brother-in-law etc.- are working here and paying taxes to fund others' medical jobs. But, still, the man said he considers himself a bit more fortunate than others ... some of the IMG docs he knew, couldn't take the humiliation of continual rejections and started even deteriorating mentally. I felt so sad... what a waste of human potential here!

He is a graduate of an international medical school. He did not pay taxes for those 4+ years living overseas. Another note, the 30+ thousand dollars per year it costs to attend medical school here in the US, is only a faction of the costs per student. The remaining amount comes from gifts, and tax dollars. So, technically he has not ?right? to complain.
As far as letting a foreign doctor into the US for residency/practice, we all had to pass the same exams (USMLE?s), interview at many hospitals, ect. There must be something wrong with a person who cannot get a residency here. Even if they do not match, there is always the scramble. One problem is that many graduates think they deserve a residency because they are now a MD; wrong! You need to be open to relocation, and lower your pride because chances of going to Harvard are slim to none.

 

[BVP]

Its amazing to see the difference in treatment they provide, for granting the workers visas to work in the United States for aliens between the two fields. While the computer industry is being constantly bombarded by the politicians about outsourcing etc., the hospital-side is not much talked about. ]![/SIZE].

First of all, hospitals do not save money by employing non US citizen residents whereas IT compaines save tonnes of money by employing foreigners.

Programs employ IMGs only because they do not find AMGs to fill in their positions.

Your diatribe towards to non-citizen IMGs is totally baseless

 

[kas23]

I am unsure if you guys have checked this thread out on the Ob/Gyn board. It is about male Ob/gyn docs and it is fairly old, but still going strong with 317 posts. It clearly depicts the mentality of the ob/gyn profession. Pay particular attention to posts by "Janice."

 

[endodoc]

I am unsure if you guys have checked this thread out on the Ob/Gyn board. It is about male Ob/gyn docs and it is fairly old, but still going strong with 317 posts. It clearly depicts the mentality of the ob/gyn profession. Pay particular attention to posts by "Janice."

What the does your post have to do with this thread?

 

[kas23]

The same as all you posts...absolutely nothing.

 

[Erica Lewinski]

BVP-wrote>> ... Programs employ IMGs only because they do not find AMGs to fill in their positions. ...

Such a case, has to be formally proven, every time, by the INS standard procedures in place, in the computer industry, you know. How do the hospitals fulfill their burden of proof? Do they nationally advertise their presently-unfilled positions, so that a US Citizen waiting for the opportunity could see it vividly and apply? ... don't count on it (that they do this). Is there any mandatory period, during which they must wait before accepting anyone, who is not a US Citizen (born/naturalized) or a Green Card Holder? In the computer industry, such procedures are strictly followed (and even when its such a growing field with exceptionally high demand). In Medicine presently, there is a clear-case of super-supply of graduates, when its estimated that, approximately five thousand green-card-holders/born_or_naturalized citizens, are rejected by the system, on an average, yearly (after all those Match/Scramble/Bumble/Blah...Blah are finished) and they have to wait empty-handed for the next year. The system is a joke, and a bit cruel at that!

 

[endodoc]

BVP-wrote>> ... Programs employ IMGs only because they do not find AMGs to fill in their positions. ...

Such a case, has to be formally proven, every time, by the INS standard procedures in place, in the computer industry, you know. How do the hospitals fulfill their burden of proof? Do they nationally advertise their presently-unfilled positions, so that a US Citizen waiting for the opportunity could see it vividly and apply? ... don't count on it (that they do this). Is there any mandatory period, during which they must wait before accepting anyone, who is not a US Citizen (born/naturalized) or a Green Card Holder? In the computer industry, such procedures are strictly followed (and even when its such a growing field with exceptionally high demand). In Medicine presently, there is a clear-case of super-supply of graduates, when its estimated that, approximately five thousand green-card-holders/born_or_naturalized citizens, are rejected by the system, on an average, yearly (after all those Match/Scramble/Bumble/Blah...Blah are finished) and they have to wait empty-handed for the next year. The system is a joke, and a bit cruel at that!

You cannot expect to be handed things in life. Hard work will pay off, and maybe the people who don?t match are not qualified to be a practicing physician. There are plenty of other areas within medicine that a MD can work. Getting a residency is not all about grades, volunteer work, and research. You need to have a personality and be willing to prove to the PD that you want to learn, and are willing to work hard. I see many soon to be residents who think they should automatically get a residency because they are US medical graduates. US or IMG, it does not matter. In general Americans are lazy. Trust me PD?s know this, and look for this.
I cannot speak for a PD, but they will choose a person who is qualified, fits into the hospital mold, and is willing to learn.

If you are trying to change INS or the way hospitals select residents; I wish you the best of luck. It?s like spitting into the wind!

 

[speyeder]

BVP-wrote>> ... Programs employ IMGs only because they do not find AMGs to fill in their positions. ...

Such a case, has to be formally proven, every time, by the INS standard procedures in place, in the computer industry, you know. How do the hospitals fulfill their burden of proof? Do they nationally advertise their presently-unfilled positions, so that a US Citizen waiting for the opportunity could see it vividly and apply? ... don't count on it (that they do this). Is there any mandatory period, during which they must wait before accepting anyone, who is not a US Citizen (born/naturalized) or a Green Card Holder? In the computer industry, such procedures are strictly followed (and even when its such a growing field with exceptionally high demand). In Medicine presently, there is a clear-case of super-supply of graduates, when its estimated that, approximately five thousand green-card-holders/born_or_naturalized citizens, are rejected by the system, on an average, yearly (after all those Match/Scramble/Bumble/Blah...Blah are finished) and they have to wait empty-handed for the next year. The system is a joke, and a bit cruel at that!

US IMGs are always given preference to foreign FMGs when it comes to residency positions if for no other reason than the fact that the programs don't have to bother with visa applications. If you can't secure a residency position with this inherent advantage, then don't look to blame the system. Rather, look at your own inadequacies & look for ways to improve your candidacy.

 

[Winged Scapula]

BVP-wrote>> ... In Medicine presently, there is a clear-case of super-supply of graduates, when its estimated that, approximately five thousand green-card-holders/born_or_naturalized citizens, are rejected by the system, on an average, yearly (after all those Match/Scramble/Bumble/Blah...Blah are finished) and they have to wait empty-handed for the next year. The system is a joke, and a bit cruel at that!.

Hmmm...I'm not sure where you get your data from. I can find nowhere on the NRMP or ECFMG web sites which state that 5000 US citizens are unable to match each year.

If you check the data tables at http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/tables

it clearly states that between 1998 and 2004, the match rates for US Foreign Graduates (which I take to mean US citizens, whether PR, naturalized or born here who graduated from medical school outside the US) hover around 50% with only approx 800-900 active applicants not matching for a PGY1 spot each year. Not 5000. Even if added in those who withdrew from the match, the number of US Foreign grads who do not get a PGY1 spot through the match are still around 1500. Much less than 5000; likely especially because IMHO many of those who withdrew did so because they were offered a spot outside of the match. And remember these data do NOT include post-scramble positions taken, which would further reduce the numbers left without a residency spot.

Please review these numbers for yourself because I am uncertain where you obtained the idea that 5000+ US IMGs do not match every year.

 

[Erica Lewinski]

I hear all the talk about IMG friendly lists circulating in the net and on sale. Is there a similar friendly list for sale for "US_Citizen_Schooled_Abroad"? Please let me know. I think this would probably include places that are "not favored by AMGs and having no state labor department authority to sponsor any visas to totally alien IMGs". I would deeply appreciate if some one points out a place that sells exactly this list. (I know of many outlets that sell something purely for totally_alien_IMGs, but, from what I have heard, the results they get, are not much better than getting the info from FREIDA ourselves?? However, I do not know the facts about all this.)

 

[beyond all hope]

This IMG friendly stuff I hear about all the time is mostly a load of horsesh*t.
It's mostly a lot of superstition and third-hand information. Don't ever pay money for a list of these programs. You can figure it all out yourself.

Yes, there are certain hospitals and programs that tend to take more IMGs. They tend to be the less competative programs. You can find out at most programs by cruising their website. Often programs will have resident or alumni lists which include the med school of their candidates. Programs that don't have a list probably don't have one because they do have a lot of IMGs, but that's far from universal.

For the individual IMG, you're much better off simply applying to a large number of programs, at some 'dream' programs and some safety programs. For each program you apply to there's a chance you'll get an interview. For each interview you go on, there's a chance you'll be ranked highly. Nothing is certain, but the more the better. Often you'll get an interview at your 'dream' program and no interview at your safety, other times vice-versa. It's not as linear as many people would like to believe.

Fantastic applicants who go on too few interviews often don't match, and mediocre ones who apply broadly and rank according to choice can get some pretty hot residencies.