unionizing of doctors

[bballsuey]

---

Members do not see this ad.

hi guys, bear with me as this is my first thread.

i know that antitrust laws forbid doctors to unionize. but do you think, given the scarcity of doctors and the great demand for their services, we may demand more fair wages, etc. also, what effect do you think would a strike by doctors have? i find this to be a really awkward question to ask since we are dealing with people's lives, but the political scene is squarely against us. i'd like to hear your thoughts since i want to know be secure in what i am hoping to become. i like medicine, but i don't want to incur great debt and at the prospect of falling wages, malpractice insurance, and such. btw, i tried searching for this topic on this forum, with little success. my apologies if this has been exhaustively debated.

 

[175961]

hi guys, bear with me as this is my first thread.

i know that antitrust laws forbid doctors to unionize. but do you think, given the scarcity of doctors and the great demand for their services, we may demand more fair wages, etc. also, what effect do you think would a strike by doctors have? i find this to be a really awkward question to ask since we are dealing with people's lives, but the political scene is squarely against us. i'd like to hear your thoughts since i want to know be secure in what i am hoping to become. i like medicine, but i don't want to incur great debt and at the prospect of falling wages, malpractice insurance, and such. btw, i tried searching for this topic on this forum, with little success. my apologies if this has been exhaustively debated.

A lot more dead people....seriously

 

[Quadratic]

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1720758,00.html?imw=Y

Safer drinking water

 

[bballsuey]

A lot more dead people....seriously

my question was actually serious and was formulated after reading the thread concerning people are eager to become doctors. if you aren't the least bit worried about the future of medicine, that is your problem. the portrait that macgyver paints, i found alarming. a strike would obviously be disastrous, but i am just positing it. there have been strikes by medical professionals. i just don't see why doctors should accept so much abuse after they have done through so much schooling and know more than a third party.

 

[XerxesMD]

I believe it is illegal for physicians to strike or to collude to all boycott one insurer or another. I read somewhere that this is because physicians and their practice groups are viewed as being corporations, and that striking or boycotting a particularly stingy insurer would violate anti-trust laws.

 

[dienekes88]

my question was actually serious and was formulated after reading the thread concerning people are eager to become doctors. if you aren't the least bit worried about the future of medicine, that is your problem. the portrait that macgyver paints, i found alarming. a strike would obviously be disastrous, but i am just positing it. there have been strikes by medical professionals. i just don't see why doctors should accept so much abuse after they have done through so much schooling and know more than a third party.

A physician-strike would get really really ugly.

The public (as well as most premeds...) thinks that physicians are compensated extremely well, so people will see it as rich people whining about not having enough money. There's no way it could end well.

 

[175961]

Ok, my serious response. I'll admit that I dont know too much about the insurance side to medicine...but one thing I've always thought about is how can doctors be freed from ridiculous lawsuits?? Of course, where there is complete ignorance and/or fault on the doctors side they should be held accountable....but now it seems that as soon as someone dies theres a lawsuit on hand and its aimed right at the doctor. It seems they always have to be on the defense of things. DIE OBNOXIOUS LAWYERS!!!! AND YOUR LAWSUITS TOO!!!!

Edit: During the last hour or so I saw at least 6 commercials stating "If you think you have been mistreated by a doctor blah blah blah blah blah....."

 

[Dienekes]

A physician-strike would get really really ugly.

A health care strike period tends to get ugly. I worked one in the middle of nowhere in the south. The strikers took shots at a helicopter that was landing at the hospital to transfer a patient.

 

[Kaustikos]

hi guys, bear with me as this is my first thread.

i know that antitrust laws forbid doctors to unionize. but do you think, given the scarcity of doctors and the great demand for their services, we may demand more fair wages, etc. also, what effect do you think would a strike by doctors have? i find this to be a really awkward question to ask since we are dealing with people's lives, but the political scene is squarely against us. i'd like to hear your thoughts since i want to know be secure in what i am hoping to become. i like medicine, but i don't want to incur great debt and at the prospect of falling wages, malpractice insurance, and such. btw, i tried searching for this topic on this forum, with little success. my apologies if this has been exhaustively debated.

I have my own opinion on that one. Doctors don't want to take slack in terms of payment so that more money can go into teaching/hiring more doctors to meet the demand. The demand exists for reasons that physicians want their salaries.

Union of doctors? Why? Let's be serious. They have a god-complex already. Let's not add more to that.

 

[TehDoc]

So they will arrest a group of doctors and leave a hospital without doctors?

 

[copingmethods]

So they will arrest a group of doctors and leave a hospital without doctors?

From what I understand, I don't think anyone will be arrested, the government will just bring a suit against them.

 

[NewAndImproved]

Although not technically a "union," I met a doc who told me he and his colleagues had something similar. Basically a group of docs in a particular geographical area that collectively decided what reimbursement rates they would and would not accept from insurers. At the time, they had ~80 docs participating. If only a few docs tried this, it wouldn't make a difference. But they were successfully recruiting new allies and, at least according to this guy, it was starting to make a dent.

 

[Zendoc]

If you serious about this issue and want an insightful, historically acurate read, you should pick up the book A Second Opinion by Dr. Arnold Relman. It talks about the beginning of the anti-trust age and how medicine has been mistakenly shaped into a medical-industrial complex. The book also outlines what future doctors can do to take part in fixing our nation's health care progress.

 

[Tin Man]

Fairer wages? Please. Being a doctor is one of the highest-paying jobs in the country.

Long hours? Comes with the territory. Don't go to medical school if you don't want to deal with it.

This entire idea is just ridiculous. The goal of being a doctor is to save lives, not to maximize profits. You're going into the wrong field if you're getting the sniffles over that $200K salary.

Please.

Has the idea of "the patient comes first" completely died in medicine?

 

[Dienekes]

From what I understand, I don't think anyone will be arrested, the government will just bring a suit against them.

You can't arrest strikers unless they trespass or are committing some other form of crime.

 

[Dienekes]

Fairer wages? Please. Being a doctor is one of the highest-paying jobs in the country.

Bull****. Especially not if we get socialized medicine.

This entire idea is just ridiculous. The goal of being a doctor is to save lives, not to maximize profits. You're going into the wrong field if you're getting the sniffles over that $200K salary.

No profession is entirely altruistic. BTW, the average doc does not make $200K.

 

[Textuality]

Even if you didn't want to unionize for things like salary, what about things like trying to get rules passed about not letting surgeons/residents work 18+ hours due to the danger of compromised decision making from exhaustion? Or combatting insurance company "gag policies" etc. I see unionizing not just to get better benefits for the members, but also to give them a meaningful and unified voice in general to get people to listen to their worries.

I've never been in a union though, so I could be totally wrong.

 

[Dienekes]

Even if you didn't want to unionize for things like salary, what about things like trying to get rules passed about not letting surgeons/residents work 18+ hours due to the danger of compromised decision making from exhaustion?

There are already rules against this for residents.

 

[DocWalken]

A physician-strike would get really really ugly.

The public (as well as most premeds...) thinks that physicians are compensated extremely well, so people will see it as rich people whining about not having enough money. There's no way it could end well.

Not directed at your very valid post dienekes, but...

WHAT ABOUT THE WRITERS AND BASEBALL PLAYERS GOING ON STRIKE!?!?!? WHO ARE THESE OVERPAID PEOPLE WITH NO REAL SKILLS (more directed at the sports players) TO SAY THEY'RE NOT GETTING ENOUGH MONEY??? WHY PAY PEOPLE WHO SPEND THEIR LIVES PLAYING A GAME IN THE FIRST PLACE?!?!?

sorry, I know, I know. I love capitalism too and I know they make tons of money for people, but seriously...

 

[Textuality]

There are already rules against this for residents.

Well, there are NOW, but I wonder if they would have been put into effect faster if residents/doctors had a unionized voice. (Although, I'm not sure what eventually did get that passed, for all I know, insurance companies demanded it and doctors didn't care)

 

[bballsuey]

Fairer wages? Please. Being a doctor is one of the highest-paying jobs in the country.

Long hours? Comes with the territory. Don't go to medical school if you don't want to deal with it.

This entire idea is just ridiculous. The goal of being a doctor is to save lives, not to maximize profits. You're going into the wrong field if you're getting the sniffles over that $200K salary.

Please.

Has the idea of "the patient comes first" completely died in medicine?

have you read the posts by macgyver? doctors are making less and less money. they are paying more and more for costs like insurance and equipment. who is benefitting? its not the patients since third parties can deny their claim. the doctors opinions aren't taken as seriously. i didn't say that the primary motive was money. its the fact that more freedom is being taken away from doctors, who know best, rather than some middle man. yes, there salaries are being cut, atleast according to macgyver. i think we need a reform in the healthcare system. patients obviously should come first, but the current system doesn't do that (40 million uninsured and many more underinsured). you misread my post.
i totally agree a strike would be devastating, but it was just musing on my part. but i am asking more fundamentally, what can doctors do in terms of politicking?

 

[plauto]

I am in a union now (teachers' union) and, while the boards of ed and superintendents can still bother you, they gotta move very very carefully.
I don't know how I feel about a physicians' union . I believe local control is key. As a poster mentioned, groups of physicians organizing to offer insurance and services within network and take those scummy HMOs' and insurance providers out of business are the answer. In the unlikely event medicine goes socialized, unions will be absolutely necessary. No other way to deal with a superior who has less education and brain than you and wants to tell you what to do. And no, unions don't just protect your salary. Most of what they do is about benefits, fair work hours, and not letting your superiors act like ass?#$&

 

[175961]

Not directed at your very valid post dienekes, but...

WHAT ABOUT THE WRITERS AND BASEBALL PLAYERS GOING ON STRIKE!?!?!? WHO ARE THESE OVERPAID PEOPLE WITH NO REAL SKILLS (more directed at the sports players) TO SAY THEY'RE NOT GETTING ENOUGH MONEY??? WHY PAY PEOPLE WHO SPEND THEIR LIVES PLAYING A GAME IN THE FIRST PLACE?!?!?

sorry, I know, I know. I love capitalism too and I know they make tons of money for people, but seriously...

(The only part of this entire thread that i'm gonna take into consideration)...Its not that they pay them, but they pay them INSANE amounts of money to play....A-Rod anyone??? Hell, he freakin' choked last season too!!!!

 

[Dienekes]

Well, there are NOW, but I wonder if they would have been put into effect faster if residents/doctors had a unionized voice. (Although, I'm not sure what eventually did get that passed, for all I know, insurance companies demanded it and doctors didn't care)

Actually it took a lawsuit (over a coked up rich white girl dying in an ED in NYC if memory serves me) to institute it. The doctors (to my knowledge) never made a push to try to institute such regulations.

 

[Textuality]

Actually it took a lawsuit to institute it. The doctors (to my knowledge) never made a push to try to institute such regulations.

Lawsuit..I could have guessed, haha...

It'll probably be lawyers that make the best and worst changes to the medical industry, I wouldn't be surprised.

Yeah, I'm only attracted to the idea of a union because I worry about insurance companies and other non-medical personnel controlling how we treat patients and dictating what treatments we should offer based on economic incentives instead of medical judgment. 🙁

 

[ColKurtz]

As a poster mentioned, groups of physicians organizing to offer insurance and services within network and take those scummy HMOs' and insurance providers out of business are the answer.

I remember a case from a few years back where a bunch of orthopaedic surgeons in Texas got together and decided to no longer accept patients from a certain insurance company. Long story short they got sued, the insurance company was awarded a few million in damages, and to add insult to injury the physicans were forced to accept the insurance company's patients. Wish I could find the article somewhere...

 

[Tin Man]

have you read the posts by macgyver? doctors are making less and less money. they are paying more and more for costs like insurance and equipment. who is benefitting? its not the patients since third parties can deny their claim. the doctors opinions aren't taken as seriously.

Oh, wow. I missed your infallible logic. I completely looked over the fact that NOT helping the patients by going on strike so the DOCTOR'S can make more money actually helps the PATIENTS.

Silly me for actually thinking of someone other than myself. Apparently, that's not allowed for medical school.

Bull****. Especially not if we get socialized medicine.

No profession is entirely altruistic. BTW, the average doc does not make $200K.

http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary_surveys/physician-salaries.htm
I see nothing under $120K for first year (real) doctors, and for doctors that actually practice medicine for more than 3 years (pretty much all doctors), almost every single job pays more than $200K.

I don't know if rich snobs are the only ones that become doctors anymore, but even $100K is more than enough to live comfortably on. My father makes a little less than $80K and paid for three children (and college for two), a wife, four pets, two cars, and a nice house in a good neighborhood on that salary. What in the hell would you need more than that for?

Physicians make plenty of money UNLESS their goal is to make enough money to be considered rich. If so, then find another job. There are easier ways to make more money that don't involve people going to medical school and wasting their own time. I will be perfectly happy with the $120K or less that I make as a physician, and I'd be perfectly happy in a country with socialized medicine if that's what it came to. It's not about me, and it's not about other physicians. It's about the patient, and it suprises me how many people have lost sight of this before they ever even stepped into medical school.

 

[greg1184]

I doubt it will ever happen.

 

[emttim]

Oh, wow. I missed your infallible logic. I completely looked over the fact that NOT helping the patients by going on strike so the DOCTOR'S can make more money actually helps the PATIENTS.

Silly me for actually thinking of someone other than myself. Apparently, that's not allowed for medical school.



http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary_surveys/physician-salaries.htm
I see nothing under $120K for first year (real) doctors, and for doctors that actually practice medicine for more than 3 years (pretty much all doctors), almost every single job pays more than $200K.

I don't know if rich snobs are the only ones that become doctors anymore, but even $100K is more than enough to live comfortably on. My father makes a little less than $80K and paid for three children (and college for two), a wife, four pets, two cars, and a nice house in a good neighborhood on that salary. What in the hell would you need more than that for?

Physicians make plenty of money UNLESS their goal is to make enough money to be considered rich. If so, then find another job. There are easier ways to make more money that don't involve people going to medical school and wasting their own time. I will be perfectly happy with the $120K or less that I make as a physician, and I'd be perfectly happy in a country with socialized medicine if that's what it came to. It's not about me, and it's not about other physicians. It's about the patient, and it suprises me how many people have lost sight of this before they ever even stepped into medical school.

Considering you must be clapping your hands over your ears and screaming when it comes time for the medical students or physicians on here to speak about pay, I'm just going to chalk you off to being a complete idiot; you obviously have nothing meaningful to contribute to this conversation.

As far as physicians needing to be paid a certain amount, this is absolutely true, /especially/ when you account for the fact that the average physician graduates medical school with $200,000 in debt. Why should a physician go through so many hellish years of school and so much debt to get paid a paltry amount of money? Especially when the prestige and respect is no longer there?

What I find ironic is the fact that stupid pre-meds *coughcough* who are way up on their "I wanna be a doctor for the paaaatients, wahh!" high horse fail to look at the fact that if you pay a physician a meager salary to go through that much debt and schooling, invariably, you (and FYI I'm using you in a general sense here so the ******s as well as the normal people can understand this post) are not going to attract the best and the brightest people to the profession.

Anytime you get someone in a profession who has no regard for the salary he/she will be earning, that person is obviously immature and/or not responsible enough to make informed decisions, and thus I do NOT want that person as my doctor.

You get what you pay for. And considering we only get one body, I don't know about you, but I'd rather pay top dollar for top care as opposed to getting free health care from Dr. Death.

It's not what doctors get paid now that's the problem, per se, it's what the doctors will probably get paid in the future when the politicians try to "fix" the health care in the U.S.

 

[Dienekes]

Considering you must be clapping your hands over your ears and screaming when it comes time for the medical students or physicians on here to speak about pay, I'm just going to chalk you off to being a complete idiot; you obviously have nothing meaningful to contribute to this conversation.

As far as physicians needing to be paid a certain amount, this is absolutely true, /especially/ when you account for the fact that the average physician graduates medical school with $200,000 in debt. Why should a physician go through so many hellish years of school and so much debt to get paid a paltry amount of money? Especially when the prestige and respect is no longer there?

What I find ironic is the fact that stupid pre-meds *coughcough* who are way up on their "I wanna be a doctor for the paaaatients, wahh!" high horse fail to look at the fact that if you pay a physician a meager salary to go through that much debt and schooling, invariably, you (and FYI I'm using you in a general sense here so the ******s as well as the normal people can understand this post) are not going to attract the best and the brightest people to the profession.

Anytime you get someone in a profession who has no regard for the salary he/she will be earning, that person is obviously immature and/or not responsible enough to make informed decisions, and thus I do NOT want that person as my doctor.

You get what you pay for. And considering we only get one body, I don't know about you, but I'd rather pay top dollar for top care as opposed to getting free health care from Dr. Death.

It's not what doctors get paid now that's the problem, per se, it's what the doctors will probably get paid in the future when the politicians try to "fix" the health care in the U.S.

You just earned a little respect in my book. 👍

 

[ColKurtz]

I have a hard time beliving anybody who claims that money is not a factor when they are thinking about becoming a doctor. I don't see people fighting tooth and nail to become social workers.

 

[Tin Man]

Considering you must be clapping your hands over your ears and screaming when it comes time for the medical students or physicians on here to speak about pay, I'm just going to chalk you off to being a complete idiot; you obviously have nothing meaningful to contribute to this conversation.

We'll see if you can prove that.

As far as physicians needing to be paid a certain amount, this is absolutely true, /especially/ when you account for the fact that the average physician graduates medical school with $200,000 in debt. Why should a physician go through so many hellish years of school and so much debt to get paid a paltry amount of money? Especially when the prestige and respect is no longer there?

That's completely ridiculous. It ranks up there with people joining the military because of the automatic "hero" status that everyone grants them for putting on a uniform.

And I didn't say that we should turn doctors into ragabonds that live on the street and pass out magic healing powder. Of course doctors need to be paid enough to cover their expenses, including what it took to get there. But you're kidding yourself if you think that most doctors have most REAL money problems. Millions of doctors have gone before you on $120K and miraculously survived that ordeal. I'm sure you can stumble through it as well. Student loans are student loans. If that's your biggest worry, feel free to drown in a river of your own tears while the rest of the world keeps turning.

What I find ironic is the fact that stupid pre-meds *coughcough* who are way up on their "I wanna be a doctor for the paaaatients, wahh!" high horse fail to look at the fact that if you pay a physician a meager salary to go through that much debt and schooling, invariably, you (and FYI I'm using you in a general sense here so the ******s as well as the normal people can understand this post) are not going to attract the best and the brightest people to the profession.

Ah. I get it. Only the best and the brightest are the ones capable of understanding the phrase "Money GOOD!" Come on. Complete idiots can want to make a lot of money.

We don't need the best and the brightest if they're only coming for the money. We need the people who will put the patient first, and themselves second. If they can't do that, then, once again, there are better jobs to make money faster and easier.

Also, make sure that you know the person you're arguing with is actually a pre-med before calling them one, Sherlock.

Anytime you get someone in a profession who has no regard for the salary he/she will be earning, that person is obviously immature and/or not responsible enough to make informed decisions, and thus I do NOT want that person as my doctor.

You get what you pay for. And considering we only get one body, I don't know about you, but I'd rather pay top dollar for top care as opposed to getting free health care from Dr. Death.

You'd only have to worry about Dr. Death if you wanted to die. But good try.

This has nothing to do with "informed decisions" or "immaturity." It has to do with doing something for the right reasons. If you won the lottery right now, and made enough money to last you the rest of your life, would you still want to go into medicine? If the answer is "no", then you're choosing the wrong profession. I want a doctor who doesn't look at me and see his new BMW, or new vacation. I want someone who sees a disease or problem and is willing to fix it however he or she can. You can sit there and pay top dollar if you want, but not everyone has that option.

It's not what doctors get paid now that's the problem, per se, it's what the doctors will probably get paid in the future when the politicians try to "fix" the health care in the U.S.

Right. Letting the poor die from inability to recieve healthcare so you can make more money is the right solution.

How can I ever think that I was the one with the inability to think critically...?

 

[McLovinMD]

I don't know if rich snobs are the only ones that become doctors anymore, but even $100K is more than enough to live comfortably on. My father makes a little less than $80K and paid for three children (and college for two), a wife, four pets, two cars, and a nice house in a good neighborhood on that salary. What in the hell would you need more than that for?

Did your father also start his career with $250K in debt and not start earning a salary until his early 30s?

 

[Textuality]

Considering you must be clapping your hands over your ears and screaming when it comes time for the medical students or physicians on here to speak about pay, I'm just going to chalk you off to being a complete idiot; you obviously have nothing meaningful to contribute to this conversation.

As far as physicians needing to be paid a certain amount, this is absolutely true, /especially/ when you account for the fact that the average physician graduates medical school with $200,000 in debt. Why should a physician go through so many hellish years of school and so much debt to get paid a paltry amount of money? Especially when the prestige and respect is no longer there?

What I find ironic is the fact that stupid pre-meds *coughcough* who are way up on their "I wanna be a doctor for the paaaatients, wahh!" high horse fail to look at the fact that if you pay a physician a meager salary to go through that much debt and schooling, invariably, you (and FYI I'm using you in a general sense here so the ******s as well as the normal people can understand this post) are not going to attract the best and the brightest people to the profession.

Anytime you get someone in a profession who has no regard for the salary he/she will be earning, that person is obviously immature and/or not responsible enough to make informed decisions, and thus I do NOT want that person as my doctor.

You get what you pay for. And considering we only get one body, I don't know about you, but I'd rather pay top dollar for top care as opposed to getting free health care from Dr. Death.

It's not what doctors get paid now that's the problem, per se, it's what the doctors will probably get paid in the future when the politicians try to "fix" the health care in the U.S.

Yup yup.

Quality gets quality. I mean, it's great if your physician has a heart of gold and loves mankind, but if that's his only qualification, I'd be worried...

I would definitely still be a doctor for a teacher's salary...as long as my MD cost the same to get as a teacher's Masters. But since that's not the case, then yes, I expect to make a salary that's high enough so that I don't have to live off macaroni and cheese for the next 10 years AFTER I complete my residency. Honestly, if the govt paid for medical school, then I wouldn't mind just making 80k afterwards.

 

[ColKurtz]

We'll see if you can prove that.

Right. Letting the poor die from inability to recieve healthcare so you can make more money is the right solution.

How can I ever think that I was the one with the inability to think critically...?

Wow. You are so right. He wants to be fairly compensated for the years he spent in school and the hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt he put himself into. He must want people to die. How did I not see that sooner?

 

[Textuality]

Based on Tin Man's other posts in other threads, I'm tempted to think he's either 1) really young and/or 2) being contrary because he likes to be contrary and trying to get us riled up.

Perhaps it might be easier to ignore him. I doubt you'll be changing his views.

 

[plauto]

We'll see if you can prove that.



That's completely ridiculous. It ranks up there with people joining the military because of the automatic "hero" status that everyone grants them for putting on a uniform.

And I didn't say that we should turn doctors into ragabonds that live on the street and pass out magic healing powder. Of course doctors need to be paid enough to cover their expenses, including what it took to get there. But you're kidding yourself if you think that most doctors have most REAL money problems. Millions of doctors have gone before you on $120K and miraculously survived that ordeal. I'm sure you can stumble through it as well. Student loans are student loans. If that's your biggest worry, feel free to drown in a river of your own tears while the rest of the world keeps turning.



Ah. I get it. Only the best and the brightest are the ones capable of understanding the phrase "Money GOOD!" Come on. Complete idiots can want to make a lot of money.

We don't need the best and the brightest if they're only coming for the money. We need the people who will put the patient first, and themselves second. If they can't do that, then, once again, there are better jobs to make money faster and easier.

Also, make sure that you know the person you're arguing with is actually a pre-med before calling them one, Sherlock.



You'd only have to worry about Dr. Death if you wanted to die. But good try.

This has nothing to do with "informed decisions" or "immaturity." It has to do with doing something for the right reasons. If you won the lottery right now, and made enough money to last you the rest of your life, would you still want to go into medicine? If the answer is "no", then you're choosing the wrong profession. I want a doctor who doesn't look at me and see his new BMW, or new vacation. I want someone who sees a disease or problem and is willing to fix it however he or she can. You can sit there and pay top dollar if you want, but not everyone has that option.



Right. Letting the poor die from inability to recieve healthcare so you can make more money is the right solution.

How can I ever think that I was the one with the inability to think critically...?

Look, you are talking to people who have been reading and talking about these issues a lot. If you think you are the only one who wants to save lives you are wrong. We all do. If money is all we cared about we would be on another career path. However we are in touch with reality. We have all been idealists and naive like you. Reading, learning, and discussing this issues goes well beyond the point of saying I just care about the patients.
And maybe you live in the middle of nowhere, but here in NJ you cannot have a house, family, and put kids thru a decent college on $100,000 a year.
Add the average $200k of debt for med school and you' ll see why I am worried about my future income ( and yes, I have a family and a house, so I know first hand what living expenses are).
We are not monsters after money. We are just down to earth and worry about having decent financial stability and preserve some sort of indepencency from the government and insurance corporations. These entities are there to make money big time and will take a huge advantage of people like you. You should be happy there are people looking out for your future income!

 

[McLovinMD]

Based on Tin Man's other posts in other threads, I'm tempted to think he's either 1) really young and/or 2) being contrary just for the sake of being contrary.

It'll cause less headache to just ignore him.

It's odd, I always thought it was the Scarecrow who needed the brain...

 

[emttim]

Did your father also start his career with $250K in debt and not start earning a salary until his early 30s?

I won't respond to Tin Man because as I said, he's an idiot and can't contribute anything to this conversation, although I will elaborate on your statement.

Take $250,000 in student loans. Ok, assume you're only doing a 3 year residency. Most of us will not be doing a residency that short, but to be fair and conservative, bear with me.

$250,000 in loans at a fixed 6.8% interest rate, deferred over 36 months, comes out to a capitalized interest of $56,049 for a grand total of $306,049 in loans by the time you start paying them off. Your monthly loan payment will be $3,522. Over a period of one year, that is $42,264 in extra bills that you otherwise wouldn't have had. If anyone is wondering, there's some great calculators at finaid.org that I used for these calculations.

Now then, let's assume there's no sacrifice or misery involved in getting the MD and doing residency (yeah I know, don't vomit, I'm trying to be conservative here). You're not done yet with additional bills. You also have malpractice insurance that you will probably have to pay for, and if you go into private practice, then you have overhead you will have to pay for as well.

So at a minimum, if you want to go off the cost of living figures that Macgyver mentioned in another thread for having two kids, a mortgage, two modest cars and living, you need to make $150,000 without student loans simply to survive. Well, add on those loans and you pretty much need to make $200,000 just to survive. According to the salary links that have been posted in this thread, a good amount of the specialties do not make $200,000 or more.

Even if the salaries of doctors did not decline any further, which is probably wishful thinking, inflation is going to ensure that the cost of living is going to increase at a rate of about 6% every year. That's why most reputable companies have what's called a COLA raise that is given annually which is about 6%. Guess what COLA stands for? Cost Of Living Allowance. Yeah, physicians aren't getting that obviously.

As you can see, simply to survive with the student loans you'll have, you need to make $200,000 or more adjusted for cost of living increases which is not happening.

I find the statement that "too many rich kids must want to go into medicine since so many people care about money" rather ironic, considering those rich kids who have their parents pay for medical school will be the ones who probably will not care nearly as much about money since they won't have those student loans in the first place.

Isn't logic depressing?

 

[emttim]

Yup yup.

Quality gets quality. I mean, it's great if your physician has a heart of gold and loves mankind, but if that's his only qualification, I'd be worried...

I would definitely still be a doctor for a teacher's salary...as long as my MD cost the same to get as a teacher's Masters. But since that's not the case, then yes, I expect to make a salary that's high enough so that I don't have to live off macaroni and cheese for the next 10 years AFTER I complete my residency. Honestly, if the govt paid for medical school, then I wouldn't mind just making 80k afterwards.

👍 if I was guaranteed a 80K salary afterwards with free medical school, I'd do it in an eyeblink since money is only a healthy afterthought (as it should be).

Based on Tin Man's other posts in other threads, I'm tempted to think he's either 1) really young and/or 2) being contrary because he likes to be contrary and trying to get us riled up.

Perhaps it might be easier to ignore him. I doubt you'll be changing his views.

Already done. I don't have time for children.

 

[Surferboy]

Give me a unionized industry and I will give you crap.

Union is not the way to go.

Unions were good when we had unsafe working conditions and no pay. Nowadays unions only go against productivity and success.

 

[Drogba]

As far as physicians needing to be paid a certain amount, this is absolutely true, /especially/ when you account for the fact that the average physician graduates medical school with $200,000 in debt. Why should a physician go through so many hellish years of school and so much debt to get paid a paltry amount of money? Especially when the prestige and respect is no longer there?

$139,517 – According to the Association of American Medical Colleges, the average educational debt of indebted graduates of the class of 2007. The average debt of graduating medical students increased in 2007 by 6.9 percent over the previous year.

What I find ironic is the fact that stupid pre-meds *coughcough* who are way up on their "I wanna be a doctor for the paaaatients, wahh!" high horse fail to look at the fact that if you pay a physician a meager salary to go through that much debt and schooling, invariably, you (and FYI I'm using you in a general sense here so the ******s as well as the normal people can understand this post) are not going to attract the best and the brightest people to the profession.

Ah I love this line. We DO need the best in brightest in dermatology thats for sure and all those DOs with <3.5 gpas and <30 MCATs are killing patients left and right. The best and brightest who actually contribute to knowledge production often go into academics where they take a pay cut. Many of these physicians also spend 4 more years in school pursuing a PhD. Even with the MSTP funding this is nto a smart economic decision.

Anytime you get someone in a profession who has no regard for the salary he/she will be earning, that person is obviously immature and/or not responsible enough to make informed decisions, and thus I do NOT want that person as my doctor.

You get what you pay for. And considering we only get one body, I don't know about you, but I'd rather pay top dollar for top care as opposed to getting free health care from Dr. Death.

It's not what doctors get paid now that's the problem, per se, it's what the doctors will probably get paid in the future when the politicians try to "fix" the health care in the U.S.

 

[Drogba]

I would definitely still be a doctor for a teacher's salary...as long as my MD cost the same to get as a teacher's Masters. But since that's not the case, then yes, I expect to make a salary that's high enough so that I don't have to live off macaroni and cheese for the next 10 years AFTER I complete my residency. Honestly, if the govt paid for medical school, then I wouldn't mind just making 80k afterwards.

Would you really? If thats true then you should have no problem if debt increases and physician reimbursement is cut drastically because no matter how you slice it even 200k debt and several years of foregone wages with a salary of 120k+ is much more economically attractive than a lifetime of 40-50k.

Comparing the two is ridiculous. You could calculate the salary necessary for a physician with debt to have the same effective earnings over the course of a life that a teacher would have with no debt. That salary would be much lower than what it is now. I'm certainly not suggesting that the two should be equal of course.

 

[bballsuey]

Give me a unionized industry and I will give you crap.

Union is not the way to go.

Unions were good when we had unsafe working conditions and no pay. Nowadays unions only go against productivity and success.

i was under the impression the union movement is failing since most blue collar (manufacturing jobs) are going overseas. hence, the domestic demand isn't great. however, the domestic demand for doctors will be much higher, especially so into the future. so using drogba's figure of 140,000, add interest to that. then add the cost of insurance and managing an office. it is a large portion of your paycheck. the insurance cost i find most damaging and wasteful, i can see the cost of equipment being increased as being rational, as well as paying your employers. i want to enter medicine to first and foremost help people. but i'd also like to help my family out. i just didn't realize how bad doctors have it. they don't determine many things (patient care, reimbursements), which i find amazing.

 

[Drogba]

i was under the impression the union movement is failing since most blue collar (manufacturing jobs) are going overseas. hence, the domestic demand isn't great. however, the domestic demand for doctors will be much higher, especially so into the future. so using drogba's figure of 140,000, add interest to that. then add the cost of insurance and managing an office. it is a large portion of your paycheck. the insurance cost i find most damaging and wasteful, i can see the cost of equipment being increased as being rational, as well as paying your employers. i want to enter medicine to first and foremost help people. but i'd also like to help my family out. i just didn't realize how bad doctors have it. they don't determine many things (patient care, reimbursements), which i find amazing.

All salary figures people are quoting refer to income after insurance is already paid.

 

[dienekes88]

Not directed at your very valid post dienekes88, but...

WHAT ABOUT THE WRITERS AND BASEBALL PLAYERS GOING ON STRIKE!?!?!? WHO ARE THESE OVERPAID PEOPLE WITH NO REAL SKILLS (more directed at the sports players) TO SAY THEY'RE NOT GETTING ENOUGH MONEY??? WHY PAY PEOPLE WHO SPEND THEIR LIVES PLAYING A GAME IN THE FIRST PLACE?!?!?

sorry, I know, I know. I love capitalism too and I know they make tons of money for people, but seriously...

Hahaha. Gotta make sure we differentiate between the two dienekes characters on this thread.

Anyway. The fact is, the public doesn't care all that much about the writers' strike nor do they care that much about baseball. The fact that we think they're just rich guys who are trying to get richer isn't a big deal. The fans get annoyed, but the point of the strike is to get the owners, governing body, producers, broadcast companies to listen. Losing money by halting production forces them to listen. I'm annoyed that the strike mucked up this season of House (12 episodes and a huge lull after episode 9... ARGH), but I'm not dying.

A physician-strike --> dead people. The public will be outraged.

Anyway, the insurance companies - the ones we want to stop screwing us - won't be losing money, they'll be making money, 'cause they aren't paying for services rendered for the short time that the strike would last. There would have to be some kind of coordination with all businesses to drop their health insurance plans, because roughly 2/3 of all Americans are covered under employment based programs. I'm guessing that a business would only drop its health insurance program if it was expecting a long and drawn out physician strike, because of possible retaliatory action from health insurance companies if the strike didn't last.

Even then... the public would be pissed, because physicians are letting people die for what they see as more money for the rich.

To get people treated outside the managed care system that is being boycotted (illegally), there would have to be a massive revolution of healthcare and a reversion back to fee-for-service out-of-pocket payments. Tertiary care would only be for the rich... and even then you couldn't win, because then everyone would think that we're turning medicine into a boutique item and denying proper/effective care to the poor and middle class.

ARGH. It would be a disaster.

 

[Tin Man]

Did your father also start his career with $250K in debt and not start earning a salary until his early 30s?

No, but he also didn't make over $200K a year 3 years out of school.

Wow. You are so right. He wants to be fairly compensated for the years he spent in school and the hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt he put himself into. He must want people to die. How did I not see that sooner?

Let's try to keep things in context. It usually makes comments like these much more intelligible.

British doctors do fine off, even though they are in a socialized medicine situation. I realize that our cultures have some differences, and doing a giant switch all at once would be pretty devastating. But to assume that it could NEVER work is idiotic. Of course it could; it works fine in Europe. It's just that they don't make AS MUCH money as we do, and therefore, American doctors (and doctor-wannabes, in this case) seem to feel like they DESERVE more money because they're altruistic... and such.

Honestly, if the decision between helping people get affordable healthcare and a bigger paycheck is really a choice, then we need to start questioning where are values lie. I have not once advocated a spartan lifestyle for doctors. But the amount of money that doctors do make does not seem to be too stifled by their medical school debt, since most of the doctors I see tend to have nice cars, nice houses, and nice toys to play with. Debt is just a way of justifying making so much money; it isn't "necessary."

Based on Tin Man's other posts in other threads, I'm tempted to think he's either 1) really young and/or 2) being contrary because he likes to be contrary and trying to get us riled up.

Perhaps it might be easier to ignore him. I doubt you'll be changing his views.

Wrong and wrong. I'm not younger than I would imagine anyone else is on these boards, and I'm not instigating anything purposefully. It just baffles me to hear the decently common statement of "Anyone who says they aren't going into medicine for the money is a liar." I read that quite commonly on these boards, and it just completely floors me that so many people seem to be caught up in that. Of course I'm going to argue against the idea that doctors should go on STRIKE because "they don't make enough money." I'm surprised that there are so few others that seem to feel that so long as a doctor can cover his or her expenses, then that's all that's really needed so long as the patient is taken care of.

And yes, it probably would be easier to ignore me. It's always easier to ignore someone than to debate with him or her, and I suppose that's your choice. Take it as you will.

Understand, people, that I have no problem with doctors making money, no more than I have of anyone making money. I understand that doctors need to survive; otherwise, they aren't doing their patients any good at all. But most of what I hear goes beyond surviving. $120K a year is plenty to survive on, even with debt and insurance. You would be surprised what you can survive on. This is not me being out of touch with reality; this is me realizing that there seems to be a paranoia that... I guess people will stop getting sick or something... and all of a sudden, doctors won't be able to afford to eat someday or something.

On $120K (and that's only for two years before getting into the $200K range), you can live quite comfortably AND pay off your debts. What you can't do is afford many luxuries, a nice car, perhaps a house at first. If these things are important to you, then, once again, it's time to start thinking of faster and easier ways to make money, such as real estate or investment, because then you'll be able to afford all premium cable you want. If you go into being a doctor, then it SHOULD mean that you're willing to do anything for your patient, including possibly having to live in an apartment for your first year or so (try not to let the shock hurt you).

 

[MrBurns10]

If you go into being a doctor, then it SHOULD mean that you're willing to do anything for your patient, including possibly having to live in an apartment for your first year or so

My guess is your opinion will change once you're midway through rotations, tired all the time and surrounded by hardened, exhausted, callous residents. No one would go through all this for $50K per year while working 60 hours a week once residency is over, and if you think you would my guess is your mind will change when you get to medical school. Keep in mind that this does not make doctors or students selfish...it's a bit naive to say that you would willingly earn the same as individuals in other service professions while working twice as hard and rarely seeing your family as a result.

If you're actually already in med school and have been through rotations, then I'd say you're a pretty unique individual.

 

[McLovinMD]

No, but he also didn't make over $200K a year 3 years out of school.



Let's try to keep things in context. It usually makes comments like these much more intelligible.

British doctors do fine off, even though they are in a socialized medicine situation. I realize that our cultures have some differences, and doing a giant switch all at once would be pretty devastating. But to assume that it could NEVER work is idiotic. Of course it could; it works fine in Europe. It's just that they don't make AS MUCH money as we do, and therefore, American doctors (and doctor-wannabes, in this case) seem to feel like they DESERVE more money because they're altruistic... and such.

Honestly, if the decision between helping people get affordable healthcare and a bigger paycheck is really a choice, then we need to start questioning where are values lie. I have not once advocated a spartan lifestyle for doctors. But the amount of money that doctors do make does not seem to be too stifled by their medical school debt, since most of the doctors I see tend to have nice cars, nice houses, and nice toys to play with. Debt is just a way of justifying making so much money; it isn't "necessary."



Wrong and wrong. I'm not younger than I would imagine anyone else is on these boards, and I'm not instigating anything purposefully. It just baffles me to hear the decently common statement of "Anyone who says they aren't going into medicine for the money is a liar." I read that quite commonly on these boards, and it just completely floors me that so many people seem to be caught up in that. Of course I'm going to argue against the idea that doctors should go on STRIKE because "they don't make enough money." I'm surprised that there are so few others that seem to feel that so long as a doctor can cover his or her expenses, then that's all that's really needed so long as the patient is taken care of.

And yes, it probably would be easier to ignore me. It's always easier to ignore someone than to debate with him or her, and I suppose that's your choice. Take it as you will.

Understand, people, that I have no problem with doctors making money, no more than I have of anyone making money. I understand that doctors need to survive; otherwise, they aren't doing their patients any good at all. But most of what I hear goes beyond surviving. $120K a year is plenty to survive on, even with debt and insurance. You would be surprised what you can survive on. This is not me being out of touch with reality; this is me realizing that there seems to be a paranoia that... I guess people will stop getting sick or something... and all of a sudden, doctors won't be able to afford to eat someday or something.

On $120K (and that's only for two years before getting into the $200K range), you can live quite comfortably AND pay off your debts. What you can't do is afford many luxuries, a nice car, perhaps a house at first. If these things are important to you, then, once again, it's time to start thinking of faster and easier ways to make money, such as real estate or investment, because then you'll be able to afford all premium cable you want. If you go into being a doctor, then it SHOULD mean that you're willing to do anything for your patient, including possibly having to live in an apartment for your first year or so (try not to let the shock hurt you).

You are completely missing the original point. Nobody is complaining that doctors are starving, and of course the patient should come first, but why should physicians be the ones to take the biggest hit in order to cover healthcare costs? Why not first address why tax breaks for healthcare are going to those in higher tax brackets? Or why people with employer-based insurance are limited to one or two coverage options, preventing competition (and thus lower premiums) between insurance companies? Or how about providing protection against frivolous lawsuits which takes a toll on patients and doctors alike?

 

[Quadratic]

British doctors do fine off, even though they are in a socialized medicine situation. I realize that our cultures have some differences, and doing a giant switch all at once would be pretty devastating. But to assume that it could NEVER work is idiotic. Of course it could; it works fine in Europe. It's just that they don't make AS MUCH money as we do, and therefore, American doctors (and doctor-wannabes, in this case) seem to feel like they DESERVE more money because they're altruistic... and such.

Yeah the British system works just fine...until it's time to marginalize overweight people and those who have certain conditions due to smoking. I guess it's ok if the government decides if people should die or not...as long as it's not someone with an MD (or the equivalent of)

Honestly, if the decision between helping people get affordable healthcare and a bigger paycheck is really a choice, then we need to start questioning where are values lie. I have not once advocated a spartan lifestyle for doctors. But the amount of money that doctors do make does not seem to be too stifled by their medical school debt, since most of the doctors I see tend to have nice cars, nice houses, and nice toys to play with. Debt is just a way of justifying making so much money; it isn't "necessary."

So just because they have these things, that's an indicator that they don't have significant debt? I know people who have "nice cars", "nice" houses, and have over 300K mortgage along with 100K student loan debt and they don't necessarily make more than $90K.

Wrong and wrong. I'm not younger than I would imagine anyone else is on these boards, and I'm not instigating anything purposefully. It just baffles me to hear the decently common statement of "Anyone who says they aren't going into medicine for the money is a liar." I read that quite commonly on these boards, and it just completely floors me that so many people seem to be caught up in that. Of course I'm going to argue against the idea that doctors should go on STRIKE because "they don't make enough money." I'm surprised that there are so few others that seem to feel that so long as a doctor can cover his or her expenses, then that's all that's really needed so long as the patient is taken care of.

Believe it or not, doctors want to make a profit too. This may be exceedingly shocking but payoff if something that most sane people consider when looking at job careers.

And yes, it probably would be easier to ignore me. It's always easier to ignore someone than to debate with him or her, and I suppose that's your choice. Take it as you will.

It's not that you're difficult. It's because you're naive and people are tired of dealing with you.

Understand, people, that I have no problem with doctors making money, no more than I have of anyone making money. I understand that doctors need to survive; otherwise, they aren't doing their patients any good at all. But most of what I hear goes beyond surviving. $120K a year is plenty to survive on, even with debt and insurance. You would be surprised what you can survive on. This is not me being out of touch with reality; this is me realizing that there seems to be a paranoia that... I guess people will stop getting sick or something... and all of a sudden, doctors won't be able to afford to eat someday or something.

Of course that's comparative to the salaries of other people. But of course you forgot to factor out what comes out of that 120K. I'm sure the majority of the workforce doesn't pay out in expenses what doctors do.

On $120K (and that's only for two years before getting into the $200K range), you can live quite comfortably AND pay off your debts. What you can't do is afford many luxuries, a nice car, perhaps a house at first. If these things are important to you, then, once again, it's time to start thinking of faster and easier ways to make money, such as real estate or investment, because then you'll be able to afford all premium cable you want. If you go into being a doctor, then it SHOULD mean that you're willing to do anything for your patient, including possibly having to live in an apartment for your first year or so (try not to let the shock hurt you).

Tell that to general practictioners who have private practice AND work at hospitals part time in order to make ends meet. I personally know two that do. And they will laugh in your face for making such statements.