Unique situation, looking for guidance

[throwaway1224]

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Long story short, I have just finished my first year of medical school and have realized it was not a good fit. I went aspiring to go into Psychiatry, but hated the physiology/biochem so much that I was constantly miserable and studying was very tedious. The only part I enjoyed was talking to patients, but I honestly don't feel like I can force myself through another year of this, let alone STEP.


Grades: -3.77 GPA (biology major/philosophy minor; state school) -Yet to take GRE, but my MCAT was 94th percentile (97th psych/soc, 99th CARS)

Research: -Late author publication (15th) in well known bio journal -Talk, at national bio conference -Talk, national undergrad conference -Clinical publication, clinical conference (while in med school)

Awards: -undergrad research grant, Dean's award (most outstanding student in my major), Phi Kappa Phi scholarships (nominated by school, but didn't get it)

So my questions would be 1) do I have a chance at clinical psych programs? How badly will leaving medical school hurt? Would my meh GPA in med school hurt? And what things would I need to add to my application (other than a good GRE) to give myself the best chance?

 

[Grenth]

I can't speak to the medical school aspect but if you consider the rest of your CV alone I'd say you're competitive for PhDs. I would wonder about personal statements etc. Why a PhD? Why drop the MD. I think adcoms/PIs will want to know this isn't a consolation prize for you.

 

[psych.meout]

I can't speak to the medical school aspect but if you consider the rest of your CV alone I'd say you're competitive for PhDs. I would wonder about personal statements etc. Why a PhD? Why drop the MD. I think adcoms/PIs will want to know this isn't a consolation prize for you.

That, and they're going to wonder why they should take a chance on OP, when they've already demonstrated a history of dropping out of med school, instead of an applicant who doesn't have a similar history. Some are going to be wary that OP will drop out of their own program later for whatever reason.

 

[Sanman]

OP,

Your grades are fine. However, before applying to grad programs I would answer the following for yourself and for admission committees:

What is it that you dislike about med school and what makes a doctorate in clinical psychology different enough that you would succeed there?

 

[throwaway1224]

I can't speak to the medical school aspect but if you consider the rest of your CV alone I'd say you're competitive for PhDs. I would wonder about personal statements etc. Why a PhD? Why drop the MD. I think adcoms/PIs will want to know this isn't a consolation prize for you.

OP,

Your grades are fine. However, before applying to grad programs I would answer the following for yourself and for admission committees:

What is it that you dislike about med school and what makes a doctorate in clinical psychology different enough that you would succeed there?

I figured this would be the case. My reason (honest, not sure if it would be good enough for a personal statement), is that I was originally interested in psychiatry (liked psych, having medical training in my repertoire sounded appealing), so I decided to go for med school. However, once I got there I realized I absolutely hate biochemistry/anatomy/pathology (which is most of the pre-clinical years of med school). If I could make it to the clinical years I feel like it would be tolerable, but I don't think I have it in me to spend another year studying material I have hate and then preparing for a high stakes exam over said material (STEP 1). I feel as though clinical psych would let me have what I like about medicine (the humanistic aspects, talking to people, pysch) without the things that I do not like about medicine.

Also, the odds of me matching psych may not be all that good even if I do survive. It is getting more competitive and the biggest aspect of our residency applications is STEP 1 (the exam over the pre-clinical years and the stuff I hate).

 

[throwaway1224]

That, and they're going to wonder why they should take a chance on OP, when they've already demonstrated a history of dropping out of med school, instead of an applicant who doesn't have a similar history. Some are going to be wary that OP will drop out of their own program later for whatever reason.

Not sure that there is a simple answer to this, but how would even go about convincing a program of this? Would it even be reasonably possible? Or should I just try my best to ride out the medical school thing/go into a less competitive field.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

My non-admissions perspective: getting in to medical school (and passing your MS1 classes) serves as a form of academic vetting for you. This is helpful. Leaving voluntarily also looks much different than being forced or strongly encouraged to leave; it's a big decision, and I imagine most admissions folks would understand that.

The crucial point will be knowing what psychologists do and what their training looks like (as much as can be expected before entering the field), and (as others said above) being able to cogently explain why that suits you and your goals much better than medical school. This will be very important for you to know as well, of course, lest you leave and later wish you hadn't.

Purely anecdotal: I know a few psychologists/psych grad students who wish they'd gone to medical school. I don't think I know any psychiatrists who wish they'd gone to grad school. But at the same time, the vast majority of psychologists I know enjoy their jobs, and would not want to be physicians.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

Make sure that this isn’t a case of “the grass is greener on the other side.” Graduate school was a long and miserable experience for many psychologists. There is a lot of it you probably won’t enjoy, even if you like the career. This is not to mention that you will probably need two or three years to prep to make yourself competitive for grad school. Have you taken psych courses? Do you have research experience?

I will say that I love being a psychologist, but I wish that I had the power of the prescription pad. Not to mention the earning power...

Good luck in your decision-making.

 

[throwaway1224]

Make sure that this isn’t a case of “the grass is greener on the other side.” Graduate school was a long and miserable experience for many psychologists. There is a lot of it you probably won’t enjoy, even if you like the career. This is not to mention that you will probably need two or three years to prep to make yourself competitive for grad school. Have you taken psych courses? Do you have research experience?

I will say that I love being a psychologist, but I wish that I had the power of the prescription pad. Not to mention the earning power...

Good luck in your decision-making.

That is definitely a something I am trying to consider. I mean I have until the end of the month before I have to formally decide whether to continue or not. The problem, as I mentioned above, is that psychiatry residency is reasonably hard to match. And thus far, I have been a pretty mediocre med student (and don't really see anyway that changes until maybe clinical years), so I would be choosing between family med/internal med/pathology or psychology not psychiatry and psychology.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I would check in the Psychiatry forum regarding competitiveness. I know a lot will hinge on Step 1, but they may be able to give you a more objective sense of how you would fare, even with a mediocre score. It sounds like you may be discounting the possibility of matching into Psychiatry a bit prematurely.

Also, consider (if you haven't already) talking with some practicing psychologists. Get a feel for what they do.

Do you have ideas on potential clinical and research interests?

 

[throwaway1224]

I would check in the Psychiatry forum regarding competitiveness. I know a lot will hinge on Step 1, but they may be able to give you a more objective sense of how you would fare, even with a mediocre score. It sounds like you may be discounting the possibility of matching into Psychiatry a bit prematurely.

Also, consider (if you haven't already) talking with some practicing psychologists. Get a feel for what they do.

Do you have ideas on potential clinical and research interests?

Thank you for your advice! I may look at doing that though it will be really tough to gauge without knowing just how mediocre my STEP score is/is not. I do know however that students with my current GPA don't usually fare the best on it, but maybe test taking skills + a improved 2nd year would make it possible idk.

And I certainly don't have an area pinned down, but I would think something on the border of genetics (my area of previous research) and a particular psychological conditions/therapy. Not sure how viable that would be, because I am admittedly still figuring this all out.

 

[ExploringOptions]

I think the biggest hurdle may be to be able to convince them you won’t also leave a PhD program after one year and thereby wasting a spot someone else could have taken. I’d make sure you can explain that.

 

[temppsych123]

I think it's important to recognize the differences in what's expected from you in terms of research and clinical work across different types of training for counseling/therapy related fields. If you're thinking of a clinical psychology PhD program, those are research-intensive - you're doing a master's (typically or if not, a first or second year project) and a dissertation, at a minimum, and many programs want you to have several years of relevant research experience under your belt before you apply. PsyD programs are less research-focused, but typically involve taking on a lot of debt compared to masters-level programs (MSW, MFT masters, licensed professional counselor programs, etc) that are also focused on clinical training but that get you out the door and practicing in less time (and with less debt). If you really want to work clinically with patients and don't enjoy research at all, I would recommend against a doctoral program, since you'll be spending a lot of time doing things you don't like. If you like research and clinical work, then it's a more reasonable option. Yes, it's nice to be able to call yourself doctor, but the average private practice patient doesn't know the difference between therapists, social workers, and psychologists - they care about whether you can help them. This is obviously a little different in larger organizations, where pay structures will differ, and your hourly rate will be somewhat lower with a masters credential, but worth considering depending on your goals.

 

[PsychApp777]

If you’re at a US MD school, pass all of your classes, rotations and USMLE Steps on the first try and get above a 210 on Step 1, then you really shouldn’t have a problem matching into Psychiatry. I would say that for someone with your resume this is very doable. Don’t psych yourself out.

 

[throwaway1224]

I think it's important to recognize the differences in what's expected from you in terms of research and clinical work across different types of training for counseling/therapy related fields. If you're thinking of a clinical psychology PhD program, those are research-intensive - you're doing a master's (typically or if not, a first or second year project) and a dissertation, at a minimum, and many programs want you to have several years of relevant research experience under your belt before you apply. PsyD programs are less research-focused, but typically involve taking on a lot of debt compared to masters-level programs (MSW, MFT masters, licensed professional counselor programs, etc) that are also focused on clinical training but that get you out the door and practicing in less time (and with less debt). If you really want to work clinically with patients and don't enjoy research at all, I would recommend against a doctoral program, since you'll be spending a lot of time doing things you don't like. If you like research and clinical work, then it's a more reasonable option. Yes, it's nice to be able to call yourself doctor, but the average private practice patient doesn't know the difference between therapists, social workers, and psychologists - they care about whether you can help them. This is obviously a little different in larger organizations, where pay structures will differ, and your hourly rate will be somewhat lower with a masters credential, but worth considering depending on your goals.

Thank you for your very informative response. I will definitely look into the PsyD option further.

 

[throwaway1224]

If you’re at a US MD school, pass all of your classes, rotations and USMLE Steps on the first try and get above a 210 on Step 1, then you really shouldn’t have a problem matching into Psychiatry. I would say that for someone with your resume this is very doable. Don’t psych yourself out.

I am at a USMD, but the problems is that while I am passing (but not by all that much) and my school will actually put you on academic probation for just passing (which I am in danger of). So, I guess I worry that if I can't find a way to make myself like the material more (and be more passionate about studying it), I won't make it through (or at least won't make it through without damning red flags).

 

[psych.meout]

Thank you for your very informative response. I will definitely look into the PsyD option further.

If you already have debt from med school, an unfunded PsyD would probably not be a great choice unless you are already quite independently wealthy. Even then, it's not a great investment of that money.

 

[PsychApp777]

I am at a USMD, but the problems is that while I am passing (but not by all that much) and my school will actually put you on academic probation for just passing (which I am in danger of). So, I guess I worry that if I can't find a way to make myself like the material more (and be more passionate about studying it), I won't make it through (or at least won't make it through without damning red flags).

Based on all the info you’ve provided you are on your way to matching into Psychiatry. You actually don’t have to change anything, believe it or not. Furthermore, the path you’re currently on is the easier AND more financially rewarding of the two being considered.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Based on all the info you’ve provided you are on your way to matching into Psychiatry. You actually don’t have to change anything, believe it or not. Furthermore, the path you’re currently on is the easier AND more financially rewarding of the two being considered.

Nah, psychiatry has become much more competitive in recent years.

 

[PsychApp777]

Nah, psychiatry has become much more competitive in recent years.

It’s true, 10 years ago I would have said he could match Psych with multiple red flags as a DO (or as an IMG with low scores). Now I’m saying the bar is much higher — currently, to be confident of a match in Psych, one should go to a US MD school, pass all courses, rotations and Steps on the first attempt, and get at least 210 on Step 1 and the equivalent on Step 2 (and apply to ALL programs within reach*). I speak as someone who has followed the competitiveness of Psych for more than a decade and matched this year into a well known Psych program.

*One of the main reasons for the relatively low match rate among US MD’s in Psych is that they under-apply, despite applying to more programs than before.

 

[tr]

I would just try to suck it up, get through med school and apply for psychiatry residencies. Based on what you've posted about your undergrad grades, scores, and achievements, you should absolutely have the capacity to match in a nice psych residency if you put your mind to it. You already know how to play the game. You just have to keep at it for a few more years.

As a psychiatrist, you can do many of the things that a clinical psychologist can do if you want. Maybe not neuropsych assessment, and you would need lots of extra training to approach the depth and breadth of the psychotherapy knowledge for a clinical psych doctorate, but if you wanted to have a practice with a focus on psychotherapy you could do it easily, and make way more money than a psychologist for the same job. More so if you are willing to combine it with some med management.
As a psychologist your income potential will always be much lower compared to an MD.

Training is not forever. MD with psych residency will give you breadth of options and earning power that will last for your lifetime.

 

[throwaway1224]

Based on all the info you’ve provided you are on your way to matching into Psychiatry. You actually don’t have to change anything, believe it or not. Furthermore, the path you’re currently on is the easier AND more financially rewarding of the two being considered.

Hmmmm...see I figured I was on path to having to apply broadly to FM. Good to hear that psych isn't unattainable for me assuming I can avoid the whole academic probation thing and score decently on STEP. I am from the the SE and would be willing to go most anywhere not super malignant in the region if it meant I got to do psych.

 

[throwaway1224]

I would just try to suck it up, get through med school and apply for psychiatry residencies.

As a psychiatrist, you can do many of the things that a clinical psychologist can do if you want. Maybe not neuropsych assessment, and you would need lots of extra training to approach the depth and breadth of the psychotherapy knowledge for a clinical psych doctorate, but if you wanted to have a practice with a focus on psychotherapy you could do it easily, and make way more money than a psychologist for the same job. More so if you are willing to combine it with some med management.
As a psychologist your income potential will always be much lower compared to an MD.

Training is not forever. MD with psych residency will give you breadth of options and earning power that will last for your lifetime.

Yeah, I'm starting to see that sticking it out may be my best option to practicing psych. Guess I'll just have to try to come up with the motivation this summer to go back and do what I need to do to be successful.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I would just try to suck it up, get through med school and apply for psychiatry residencies. Based on what you've posted about your undergrad grades, scores, and achievements, you should absolutely have the capacity to match in a nice psych residency if you put your mind to it. You already know how to play the game. You just have to keep at it for a few more years.

As a psychiatrist, you can do many of the things that a clinical psychologist can do if you want. Maybe not neuropsych assessment, and you would need lots of extra training to approach the depth and breadth of the psychotherapy knowledge for a clinical psych doctorate, but if you wanted to have a practice with a focus on psychotherapy you could do it easily, and make way more money than a psychologist for the same job. More so if you are willing to combine it with some med management.
As a psychologist your income potential will always be much lower compared to an MD.

Training is not forever. MD with psych residency will give you breadth of options and earning power that will last for your lifetime.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with the bolded portion, as it's quite possible to make excellent money as a psychologist. It's not nearly as straightforward, though, particularly if you're looking at salaried clinical positions.

All that said, to the OP, I think trying to stick it out (as you've said, and as has been recommended by the folks above) may be your best option. I imagine things may change significantly after MS2, and particularly once you start residency.

Also, keep in mind that much of what you're learning right now can be very relevant/helpful in treating mental health patients, even if it doesn't necessarily seem like it at the moment.

 

[psych.meout]

I wouldn't necessarily agree with the bolded portion, as it's quite possible to make excellent money as a psychologist. It's not nearly as straightforward, though, particularly if you're looking at salaried clinical positions.

All that said, to the OP, I think trying to stick it out (as you've said, and as has been recommended by the folks above) may be your best option. I imagine things may change significantly after MS2, and particularly once you start residency.

Also, keep in mind that much of what you're learning right now can be very relevant/helpful in treating mental health patients, even if it doesn't necessarily seem like it at the moment.

I really wish that doctoral programs did a better job teaching the business and career side of psychology. Most do a good to great job with clinical and research training, preparing their graduates to provide clinical services or be researchers/faculty, but I don't know any that provide much instruction and assistance about the financial side of things, getting these kinds of jobs, going into industry, etc. Is there some good repository of resources to help with this kind of thing?

 

[Sanman]

I really wish that doctoral programs did a better job teaching the business and career side of psychology. Most do a good to great job with clinical and research training, preparing their graduates to provide clinical services or be researchers/faculty, but I don't know any that provide much instruction and assistance about the financial side of things, getting these kinds of jobs, going into industry, etc. Is there some good repository of resources to help with this kind of thing?

Nah, APA is too busy offering webinars on how to 'crush your student debt' after the fact to give sound business advice for the future. While my program had one class I did enjoy, I doubt programs will ever offer significant teaching in this area.