Univ. of Mich. - why so many great applicants?

[SailCrazy]

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I have heard that UM gives AUTO-INVITES to applicants from TOP schools (HYPS) but does it give auto-invites to TOP UM undergrads? UM med school pays a lot of attention to pedigree (undergrad school) - seems to me anyway - but how does it treat its own?

What stats do you have to have to get an auto-invite from UM med school if you are a UM undergrad?

Just wondering. Can someone shed some light. Thanks.

There are quite a few schools that would be eligible for auto-invites (not just HYPS). All the ivies, UM, and some of the UC's (Berkeley, UCLA, possibly UCSD as well) are on that list, as well as other top private schools. Can't remember what else off the top of my head...

There are "auto invites" but undergrad school makes no difference.

Basically admissions did an evaluation several years ago and realized that 90-something% of applicants with certain GPA/MCAT combinations received interviews (I belive that there are slightly different IS and OOS criteria.) With this realization, they figured "why not just invite these people right away get the interview process rolling?" The applicants who fit this criteria are the "auto interview" folks, but even with that said, the apps get a quick glance over and some students can be (and are) removed from the quick interview category. Also, the entire secondary application must be completed before the applicant's file will be reviewed by the adcom.

To clear up another misconception: It is NOT done because Michigan cares more about GPA/MCAT than other schools. In fact, I would say that, if anything, the opposite is the case. It was basically a way to get the interview process going a bit sooner so that everyone's lives (adcom & applicants) can be a bit better.

 

[SailCrazy]

Based on director rankings in US News, it is indeed top 5. UM publishes this on every med school document they send out, and that statistic makes me very excited to go there.

I don't doubt that it is, I'm simply stating that as a UM grad you'll get more attention from the top midwestern programs than the top ivies or west coast programs.

Drizzt - this is a semi-common misconception for some folks on the coasts, and is simply untrue.

 

[drizzt3117]

There are "auto invites" but undergrad school makes no difference.

It seems Michigan's Director of Admissions disagrees with you...

RobertRuizMichigan (Jun 13, 2007 7:15:16 PM)
medkid--no formulas--if you have both and attend a school we consider a "top" undergraduate school your invite is automatic-if not you go through the full review process.

 

[drizzt3117]

Drizzt - this is a semi-common misconception for some folks on the coasts, and is simply untrue.

Thanks for your input, I'll ignore all the information I've received from residency directors then.

 

[TheRealMD]

1) It has the highest ranked public undergrad right next to it.
2) Ann Arbor is a college town, which can make for a fun place to be when you want to get away from the medical school.
3) Drunk college kids means interesting cases.
4) Lots of money this med school has.
5) Facilities, facilities, facilities.

Also, they make it a point to have 50% in-state, and 50% out-of-state people in their school. Plus, with auto-invites with great stats from certain schools, it's a nice way to attract lots of top talent.

The one thing people seem to overlook is that OOS tuition is INSANE. My parents live in Michigan and I didn't even bother applying because of that.

 

[SailCrazy]

It seems Michigan's Director of Admissions disagrees with you...

RobertRuizMichigan (Jun 13, 2007 7:15:16 PM)
medkid--no formulas--if you have both and attend a school we consider a "top" undergraduate school your invite is automatic-if not you go through the full review process.

I don't know what "have both" is out of context, but that isn't important for the sake of this discussion...

Robert's answer is correct, for the most part. I will also point out that it would be a waste of time, not to mention mind-numbing, to give full and complete answers every time an applicant asked this (or any of the many other) oft-repeated questions.

The info you quote is a great short answer that generally satisfies the person who asked, but it is not the entire story.

... Also, I do know that, given his sense of humor, it is not beyond Robert to throw an innocuous Red Herring our two out in the course of his communications. (Not that it applies to this situation, but just as a general background.)

Believe what you want. I'm simply gave a little more detailed explanation of this situation because it is a frequent topic of discussion each application cycle.

 

[drizzt3117]

I don't know what "have both" is out of context, but that isn't important for the sake of this discussion...

Robert's answer is correct, for the most part. I will also point out that it would be a waste of time, not to mention mind-numbing, to give full and complete answers every time an applicant asked this (or any of the many other) oft-repeated questions.

The info you quote is a great short answer that generally satisfies the person who asked, but it is not the entire story.

... Also, I do know that, given his sense of humor, it is not beyond Robert to throw an innocuous Red Herring our two out in the course of his communications. (Not that it applies to this situation, but just as a general background.)

Believe what you want. I'm simply gave a little more detailed explanation of this situation because it is a frequent topic of discussion each application cycle.

Have both in that case was specifically referring to 3.8 GPA and 36 MCAT.

One of my classmates had a 4.0 GPA and 40 MCAT and didn't receive an automatic invite to UM. Some girl from Michigan State had a 3.95 GPA and 41 MCAT this current cycle and didn't receive an automatic invite.

If that isn't clear evidence that people don't receive automatic invites because of their undergrad institution, I don't know what else you need. The two people in question received invites to UM in due course, but they were after their application as a whole were reviewed, i.e. not an auto invite.

 

[SailCrazy]

Thanks for your input, I'll ignore all the information I've received from residency directors then.

Maybe you should. 😛

I've had many converstaions with multiple people in the administration, students (from both the midwest and the coasts) who are heading/have headed to the coasts for residencies, and have heard from more than a few who've spoken with many residency directors. Michigan grads do quite well no matter the geography or specialty they choose for residency, and are more than well-recieved on the coasts.

 

[fisko82]

One of my classmates had a 4.0 GPA and 40 MCAT and didn't receive an automatic invite to UM. Some girl from Michigan State had a 3.95 GPA and 41 MCAT this current cycle and didn't receive an automatic invite.

If that isn't clear evidence that people don't receive automatic invites because of their undergrad institution, I don't know what else you need. The two people in question received invites to UM in due course, but they were after their application as a whole were reviewed, i.e. not an auto invite.

There was a student from Michigan State last year who had a 4.0gpa and a 39 on his MCAT, and he too did not receive an auto-invite. Perhaps it has to do with both of them going to a rival school

 

[drizzt3117]

Maybe you should. 😛

I've had many converstaions with multiple people in the administration, students (from both the midwest and the coasts) who are heading/have headed to the coasts for residencies, and have heard from more than a few who've spoken with many residency directors. Michigan grads do quite well no matter the geography or specialty they choose for residency, and are more than well-recieved on the coasts.

Sure... UM is a top ten med school, and is going to match pretty well. Take a look at the most recent match list, and you'll find the occasional student matching into top tier residencies on the East or West Coast.

However, compare the match list to say, Yale, Hopkins, Harvard, Columbia, etc... and look at the number of East Coast (Ivy) matches... many of the Ivies match 60-70% of their students into residency programs at Ivy league institutions. For the West Coast comparison, look at Stanford, UCSF or UCLA's match lists into top tier residencies on the West Coast... Even looking at UM's 2007 list, you see Derm, Urology, etc... matches into Wash U, CCF, Mayo, UM, etc... and far less top tier matches on either coast (although there clearly are some)

Much of this is going to be due to self-selection, but it's pretty obvious far more students from UCSF, Stanford, UCLA are going to match into top tier West Coast residencies than UM students, and again pretty much the same is true for the Ivies. Certainly the reputation of the school won't limit you whatsoever during residency applications but conventional wisdom would indicate that if you're dead set on a west coast residency, the path of least resistance is a top west coast school, and vice versa for the East Coast.

 

[SailCrazy]

Have both in that case was specifically referring to 3.8 GPA and 36 MCAT.

One of my classmates had a 4.0 GPA and 40 MCAT and didn't receive an automatic invite to UM. Some girl from Michigan State had a 3.95 GPA and 41 MCAT this current cycle and didn't receive an automatic invite.

If that isn't clear evidence that people don't receive automatic invites because of their undergrad institution, I don't know what else you need. The two people in question received invites to UM in due course, but they were after their application as a whole were reviewed, i.e. not an auto invite.

n=3 will never equal "clear evidence"

As I explained in my post, there is no such thing as an "auto interview." As I said already "students can be (and are) removed from the quick interview category." I appreciate that you hold a different opinion based on your experiences, but an anecdote regarding one girl from MSU does little convince me that I've been misled during the course of many different conversations with folks in the admissions office.

There is a lot more to an applicant's profile than GPA and MCAT. Michigan, seeminly more than many, really looks at the overall picture. There are applicants each year who have a GPA at or near a 4.0 AND and MCAT in the 40+ range who are not interviewed at all, let alone auto interviewed. There area also plenty in those categories who make it to interview day and do not receive offers of admission.

 

[drizzt3117]

There was a student from Michigan State last year who had a 4.0gpa and a 39 on his MCAT, and he too did not receive an auto-invite. Perhaps it has to do with both of them going to a rival school

Robert Ruiz said straight up on one of the accepted.com chats that MSU was a good school but not one that they extend auto-invites to.

ugrad (Jun 13, 2007 7:20:50 PM)
Is MSU considered one of your "top" undergraduate schools?

RobertRuizMichigan (Jun 13, 2007 7:21:55 PM)
ugrad---MSU is a fine school but would not warrant an automatic interview--that being said, if you have those kinds of big numbers, go to MSU and have interest in UMMS I suspect we'd take a very strong look at your credentials.

Then again, this is probably a red herring.

Also, the thing about the secondary application needing to be reviewed by the adcom for an auto-invite is just not true. My friend submitted AMCAS and got an interview the next day, at the same time as he received the secondary application. (UCLA, 3.9/38)

 

[SailCrazy]

There was a student from Michigan State last year who had a 4.0gpa and a 39 on his MCAT, and he too did not receive an auto-invite. Perhaps it has to do with both of them going to a rival school

You figured it out... all MSU, OSU, and ND grads are immediately docked 15 points and sent to the back of the line.

 

[drizzt3117]

Here, I posted a nice picture of the screen you see when you get an auto invite.

Of course, this is probably a red herring too.

 

[SailCrazy]

Also, the thing about the secondary application needing to be reviewed by the adcom for an auto-invite is just not true. My friend submitted AMCAS and got an interview the next day, at the same time as he received the secondary application. (UCLA, 3.9/38)

*No one* is reiviewed by commitee before an interview invite is extended. Applicants are reviewed by commitee to make admissions decisions (admit, defer, waitlist, reject).

 

[drizzt3117]

*No one* is reiviewed by commitee before an interview invite is extended. Applicants are reviewed by commitee to make admissions decisions (admit, defer, waitlist, reject).

Ah, I see what you mean by your initial post then, you meant that whether or not you get an auto-invite, the committee has to review your application (with completed secondaries and LORs) as a whole before they make an admissions decision. This is certainly true, but the people with auto-invites are going to get reviewed earlier than those without. While UM said that only 15% of their invitees were auto-invites, this cycle that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[PeepshowJohnny]

I think Undergrad matters, but they're pretty generous with it. I went to another "Big Ten" school and got an auto-invite. You don't have to be from Harvard or Stanford.

 

[SailCrazy]

Here, I posted a nice picture of the screen you see when you get an auto invite.

Of course, this is probably a red herring too.

Dude - I can't tell if you're trying to be a jerk right now or are just argumentative... or maybe I'm just too tired. 🙁

I'm simply trying to share some additional info on a range of topics that seem to be of interest to many applicants.

Obviously you're not interested in that info. Fine by me. I have no need to share it.

 

[SailCrazy]

Ah, I see what you mean by your initial post then, you meant that whether or not you get an auto-invite, the committee has to review your application (with completed secondaries and LORs) as a whole before they make an admissions decision. This is certainly true, but the people with auto-invites are going to get reviewed earlier than those without. While UM said that only 15% of their invitees were auto-invites, this cycle that doesn't seem to be the case.

Thanks for acknowledging that... We clearly weren't understanding each other so well.

I can understand how your impressions might be different. I was just sharing what I know of the process.

 

[drizzt3117]

Dude - I can't tell if you're trying to be a jerk right now or are just argumentative... or maybe I'm just too tired. 🙁

I'm simply trying to share some additional info on a range of topics that seem to be of interest to many applicants.

Obviously you're not interested in that info. Fine by me. I have no need to share it.

Yeah, I posted that screen before I read your other post clarifying your initial statement about people not needing to be reviewed by the adcom to get interview invites.

I think we're on the same page regarding that, except for the part where you said undergrad doesn't matter, because it clearly does. Not only do people's experiences reflect this, but the director of admissions explicitly said it more than once. I'm not really sure how much more evidence we need...

 

[SailCrazy]

Yeah, I posted that screen before I read your other post clarifying your initial statement about people not needing to be reviewed by the adcom to get interview invites.

I think we're on the same page regarding that, except for the part where you said undergrad doesn't matter, because it clearly does. Not only do people's experiences reflect this, but the director of admissions explicitly said it more than once. I'm not really sure how much more evidence we need...

Based on change of tone in our last few posts I think we're going to have to start holding hands soon! 😍

When I initially said undergrad didn't matter, I was referring to those posts where they implied that there was a small list of school from which the auto invites were drawn, not that school made no difference. Sorry that wasn't more clear.

Anyway, this has been a lively and exciting discussion. I'll be sure to check back later to see what other misinformation I can propagate! 😛

 

[drizzt3117]

Based on change of tone in our last few posts I think we're going to have to start holding hands soon! 😍

When I initially said undergrad didn't matter, I was referring to those posts where they implied that there was a small list of school from which the auto invites were drawn, not that school made no difference. Sorry that wasn't more clear.

Anyway, this has been a lively and exciting discussion. I'll be sure to check back later to see what other misinformation I can propagate! 😛

I think that there is some sort of list, but it's probably not really a small one. Certainly it doesn't only include the Ivy league schools. I think Robert's statement that MSU wouldn't warrant an automatic interview implies that there's a subset of schools that would warrant an auto-invite, and some that do not.

 

[RoadRunner17]

You guys forgot to mention that UofM, as a public school, accepts a majority of their students from OOS, which attracts a lot more applications. Thanks UofM, for supporting your home state.

Yes they have great facilities, a great reputation, and they are one hell of an educational institution, but they're still bastards.

From a Michigan resident to another: bastards 😡

 

[coffeebythelake]

Is Michigan a DO school or Allopratic? I always thought it was an osteopathy school

You are thinking MSU, which has both DO and MD.

 

[HU34ESw]

Michigan gets great applicants because its football team almost beat Appalachian State and its basketball team gave Harvard a heck of a game.

And whipped the Gators in a bowl game. Refresh my memory, weren't the Gators last year's champions?

 

[HU34ESw]

Can anyone answer this question??? I just can't tell what really distinguishes Michigan... and their clinical ranking is not great.

One thing you have to remember is that Michigan's resources (money) is HUGE. They have state-of-the-art facilities and one of the best teaching hospitals in the country. The research opportunities are endless. Plus, there's the Michigan mystique. Around these parts UM is known as the "Harvard of the Midwest", and most people in this area (Michigan) consider UM to be better than Harvard or Yale. I know several people who were accepted to Harvard/Yale for undergrad and chose UM instead. I think a lot of people want a piece of the mystique. Look at the law school, which is considered more selective than Harvard, Yale, or any of the other ivy league law schools. It's pretty insane how hard it is to get into UM.

 

[HU34ESw]

You guys forgot to mention that UofM, as a public school, accepts a majority of their students from OOS, which attracts a lot more applications. Thanks UofM, for supporting your home state.

Yes they have great facilities, a great reputation, and they are one hell of an educational institution, but they're still bastards.

I thought in state applicants to UM were automatically given 7 points right off the bat? Doesn't UM use the point system? Maybe that only applies to undergrad. The things about UM is that they really value diversity and I think they strive to make every class as diverse as possible.

 

[DrZaius]

1) It has the highest ranked public undergrad right next to it.

I don't think Berkeley is right next to UMich.

 

[154465]

I can tell you without a doubt that Michigan cares about your undergrad institution. I have it on good authority that they rank undergrads into 5 tiers, and use that system to allot a student points on a 99 (or maybe it was 100) point scale.

 

[John Hops]

One thing you have to remember is that Michigan's resources (money) is HUGE. They have state-of-the-art facilities and one of the best teaching hospitals in the country. The research opportunities are endless. Plus, there's the Michigan mystique. Around these parts UM is known as the "Harvard of the Midwest", and most people in this area (Michigan) consider UM to be better than Harvard or Yale. I know several people who were accepted to Harvard/Yale for undergrad and chose UM instead. I think a lot of people want a piece of the mystique. Look at the law school, which is considered more selective than Harvard, Yale, or any of the other ivy league law schools. It's pretty insane how hard it is to get into UM.

Thats interesting; I haven't encountered that at all.

I'm from the Michigan area, and go to U of M, and at least for Undergrad getting in here wasn't a big deal at all. I would have taken Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc in a heartbeat over this place.

In fact, I very nearly went to Amherst or Northwestern, and would have if I hadn't gotten such a good financial aid package.

I've actually found that it is the East Coasters - from NY and the like - that seem to think that U of M is hot stuff.

 

[SailCrazy]

I don't doubt that it is, I'm simply stating that as a UM grad you'll get more attention from the top midwestern programs than the top ivies or west coast programs.

…
compare the match list to say, Yale, Hopkins, Harvard, Columbia, etc... and look at the number of East Coast (Ivy) matches...
…
For the West Coast comparison, look at Stanford, UCSF or UCLA's match lists into top tier residencies on the West Coast... Even looking at UM's 2007 list, you see Derm, Urology, etc... matches into Wash U, CCF, Mayo, UM, etc... and far less top tier matches on either coast (although there clearly are some)

Much of this is going to be due to self-selection, but it's pretty obvious far more students from UCSF, Stanford, UCLA are going to match into top tier West Coast residencies than UM students, and again pretty much the same is true for the Ivies. Certainly the reputation of the school won't limit you whatsoever during residency applications but conventional wisdom would indicate that if you're dead set on a west coast residency, the path of least resistance is a top west coast school, and vice versa for the East Coast.

I forgot to mention my thoughts on this one yesterday before taking off…

I’m not sure if I understand your point. To me, you seem to be mixing two different things in your posts. The first one seems to say that as an individual, one is disadvantaged going to the coasts from UofM.

The second one seems to basically say that more people from *insert west coast school here* go to west coast residencies (similarly for east coasts schools too) and rather appropriately points out that there is going to be self-selection there. This is definitely factual, but seems to me to be mostly irrelevant to an individual med student or applicant.

If you say to me “SailCrazy, quick – go find a current med student who will match into a west coast residency program,” of coarse I’ll choose a random student from Stanford before choosing a random one from Michigan. Same for east coast – I’ll choose a random Penn grad before one from Michigan.

I think that to extrapolate that, however, to say that as an individual Michigan student I, for example, will get less attention from an east or west coast residency program than a similarly (or maybe even less) qualified applicant from that coast is not accurate.

I guess I don’t understand exactly what your point is. If you’re simply saying “more people from west/east coast schools go to west/east coast residencies” then I totally agree with you. If you’re saying that any given Michigan grad has a lesser chance of getting into residency at place X because they’re a Michigan grad and not a grad from *insert west/east coast school here* then I disagree. If neither of those is your point then I've missed the boat! 😀

 

[SailCrazy]

One thing you have to remember is that Michigan's resources (money) is HUGE. They have state-of-the-art facilities and one of the best teaching hospitals in the country. The research opportunities are endless. Plus, there's the Michigan mystique. Around these parts UM is known as the "Harvard of the Midwest", and most people in this area (Michigan) consider UM to be better than Harvard or Yale. I know several people who were accepted to Harvard/Yale for undergrad and chose UM instead. I think a lot of people want a piece of the mystique. Look at the law school, which is considered more selective than Harvard, Yale, or any of the other ivy league law schools. It's pretty insane how hard it is to get into UM.

Thats interesting; I haven't encountered that at all.

I'm from the Michigan area, and go to U of M, and at least for Undergrad getting in here wasn't a big deal at all. I would have taken Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc in a heartbeat over this place.

In fact, I very nearly went to Amherst or Northwestern, and would have if I hadn't gotten such a good financial aid package.

I've actually found that it is the East Coasters - from NY and the like - that seem to think that U of M is hot stuff.

Yeah, I wouldn't have gone as far as you in my reply, but I thought that post was a little over the top too.

... It was posted a bit after 2am Michigan time - maybe a beer to two influenced the content?

 

[SailCrazy]

I can tell you without a doubt that Michigan cares about your undergrad institution. I have it on good authority that they rank undergrads into 5 tiers, and use that system to allot a student points on a 99 (or maybe it was 100) point scale.

If you're referencing my comment about undergrad schools, it was directed at having a "short list" of school from which auto interview invites were drawn, not to overall admission decisions.

If you weren't referencing my post, please ignore me. (Many find that to be a good decision on a regular basis!) 😴

 

[RoadRunner17]

Yeah, I wouldn't have gone as far as you in my reply, but I thought that post was a little over the top too.

... It was posted a bit after 2am Michigan time - maybe a beer to two influenced the content?

By the way, most of the lower peninsula (including Detroit and Ann Arbor) run on ET, not CT.

I tend to agree that most people out of the state of Michigan have the hots for UM. Familiarity breeds contempt, perhaps? Not sure. I wonder if being forced to scrap affirmative action (at least, overt AA) will affect applications this year, as well.

 

[drizzt3117]

I guess I don’t understand exactly what your point is. If you’re simply saying “more people from west/east coast schools go to west/east coast residencies” then I totally agree with you. If you’re saying that any given Michigan grad has a lesser chance of getting into residency at place X because they’re a Michigan grad and not a grad from *insert west/east coast school here* then I disagree.

That is exactly what I'm saying. I have a lot of insight into the match process for competitive residencies because my brother just went through it. There's a tremendous regional bias from the top programs. My brother went to undergrad on the west coast and really wanted to return there, but attended an Ivy League medical school. He was applying for an extremely competitive residency (urology) and was one of the top applicants in the national pool for the residency... (Step 1 > 270, AOA, etc) and had done his sub I/audition at a West Coast school with exceptional LORs, etc... He ended up matching into a top Ivy League program despite his top two choices both being on the West Coast. He said in his experiences and those he's run across on the interview trail it's exceedingly difficult to cross coasts.

Certainly it's not impossible, but from everyone I've talked to that's been involved with the process, it's in your best interest to attend med school in the general area that you would like to be a resident, all else being equal. In practice, of course, many people don't have the option of choosing medical schools of the same caliber in different geographic areas. That said, assuming one is accepted, at say, for example, Stanford, Michigan, and Yale, which seem to be all around the same level of academic reputation, I would say one factor (certainly not the top one, but something you may want to take into account) in making a decision may be where you ultimately want to do residency.

 

[Maxprime]

That is exactly what I'm saying. I have a lot of insight into the match process for competitive residencies because my brother just went through it. There's a tremendous regional bias from the top programs. My brother went to undergrad on the west coast and really wanted to return there, but attended an Ivy League medical school. He was applying for an extremely competitive residency (urology) and was one of the top applicants in the national pool for the residency... (Step 1 > 270, AOA, etc) and had done his sub I/audition at a West Coast school with exceptional LORs, etc... He ended up matching into a top Ivy League program despite his top two choices both being on the West Coast. He said in his experiences and those he's run across on the interview trail it's exceedingly difficult to cross coasts.

Certainly it's not impossible, but from everyone I've talked to that's been involved with the process, it's in your best interest to attend med school in the general area that you would like to be a resident, all else being equal. In practice, of course, many people don't have the option of choosing medical schools of the same caliber in different geographic areas. That said, assuming one is accepted, at say, for example, Stanford, Michigan, and Yale, which seem to be all around the same level of academic reputation, I would say one factor (certainly not the top one, but something you may want to take into account) in making a decision may be where you ultimately want to do residency.

While I appreciate your brother's experience, it is just one data point. Everything I've read has said that the assumed bias is superstition. Programs work to create diversity and only have a bias in that they like to retain some medical students - as if you never do then it looks bad.

You should go to medical school where you want - regardless of residency. Attendings and program directors will all tell you this - and they know a lot better than we do.

 

[copingmethods]

I don't think Berkeley is right next to UMich.

Beat me to it.

 

[drizzt3117]

While I appreciate your brother's experience, it is just one data point. Everything I've read has said that the assumed bias is superstition. Programs work to create diversity and only have a bias in that they like to retain some medical students - as if you never do then it looks bad.

You should go to medical school where you want - regardless of residency. Attendings and program directors will all tell you this - and they know a lot better than we do.

You're free to believe whatever you want <shrug>

 

[RandomBlackManX]

That is exactly what I'm saying. I have a lot of insight into the match process for competitive residencies because my brother just went through it. There's a tremendous regional bias from the top programs. My brother went to undergrad on the west coast and really wanted to return there, but attended an Ivy League medical school. He was applying for an extremely competitive residency (urology) and was one of the top applicants in the national pool for the residency... (Step 1 > 270, AOA, etc) and had done his sub I/audition at a West Coast school with exceptional LORs, etc... He ended up matching into a top Ivy League program despite his top two choices both being on the West Coast. He said in his experiences and those he's run across on the interview trail it's exceedingly difficult to cross coasts.

Certainly it's not impossible, but from everyone I've talked to that's been involved with the process, it's in your best interest to attend med school in the general area that you would like to be a resident, all else being equal. In practice, of course, many people don't have the option of choosing medical schools of the same caliber in different geographic areas. That said, assuming one is accepted, at say, for example, Stanford, Michigan, and Yale, which seem to be all around the same level of academic reputation, I would say one factor (certainly not the top one, but something you may want to take into account) in making a decision may be where you ultimately want to do residency.

Your analysis of other situations in the past have always been spot on. If I remember correctly from your previous posts, your brother went to an extremely highly regarded medical school. I didn't know crossing coasts was such a difficult task, and I will definitely incorporate this information into my decision making process.

 

[SailCrazy]

While I appreciate your brother's experience, it is just one data point. Everything I've read has said that the assumed bias is superstition. Programs work to create diversity and only have a bias in that they like to retain some medical students - as if you never do then it looks bad.

You should go to medical school where you want - regardless of residency. Attendings and program directors will all tell you this - and they know a lot better than we do.

Well said.

Somehow a single example of someone not matching into their top two choices in a highly competitive residency also seems pretty unconvincing to me - whether they consider themselves to be one of the "top applicants in the national pool" or not.

I'm sure that matching into a particular geography ends up not working out for many individual applicants during each residency match cycle, and I can certainly understand why some feel that this is the norm. I'll still sticking, however, with the understanding I've developed based on feedback I've received over several years from many people close to these situations.

You're free to believe whatever you want <shrug>

Fair enough... agree to disagree works for me! 👍

 

[SailCrazy]

By the way, most of the lower peninsula (including Detroit and Ann Arbor) run on ET, not CT.

Right. The post to which I was referring was ~2am ET. I'm not sure what you're getting at... 😕

 

[RandomBlackManX]

Well said.

Somehow a single example of someone not matching into their top two choices in a highly competitive residency also seems pretty unconvincing to me - whether they consider themselves to be one of the "top applicants in the national pool" or not.

I'm sure that matching into a particular geography ends up not working out for many individual applicants during each residency match cycle, and I can certainly understand why some feel that this is the norm. I'll still sticking, however, with the understanding I've developed based on feedback I've received over several years from many people close to these situations.

Fair enough... agree to disagree works for me! 👍

If you reject his feedback, as a consequence of logic, you must reject your own. Unless of course you don't adhere to the tenets of logic. Knowing people "close to the situations" doesn't cut it.

Edit: This isn't an ad-hominem attack, so please do not take it as so.

 

[HU34ESw]

I forgot to mention my thoughts on this one yesterday before taking off…

I’m not sure if I understand your point. To me, you seem to be mixing two different things in your posts. The first one seems to say that as an individual, one is disadvantaged going to the coasts from UofM.

The second one seems to basically say that more people from *insert west coast school here* go to west coast residencies (similarly for east coasts schools too) and rather appropriately points out that there is going to be self-selection there. This is definitely factual, but seems to me to be mostly irrelevant to an individual med student or applicant.

If you say to me “SailCrazy, quick – go find a current med student who will match into a west coast residency program,” of coarse I’ll choose a random student from Stanford before choosing a random one from Michigan. Same for east coast – I’ll choose a random Penn grad before one from Michigan.

I think that to extrapolate that, however, to say that as an individual Michigan student I, for example, will get less attention from an east or west coast residency program than a similarly (or maybe even less) qualified applicant from that coast is not accurate.

I guess I don’t understand exactly what your point is. If you’re simply saying “more people from west/east coast schools go to west/east coast residencies” then I totally agree with you. If you’re saying that any given Michigan grad has a lesser chance of getting into residency at place X because they’re a Michigan grad and not a grad from *insert west/east coast school here* then I disagree. If neither of those is your point then I've missed the boat! 😀

Yeah, I wouldn't have gone as far as you in my reply, but I thought that post was a little over the top too.

... It was posted a bit after 2am Michigan time - maybe a beer to two influenced the content?

Not at all, just been my experience. I once knew a girl who went to high school in the A2 area, graduated with a 3.9 GPA, many honors courses, strong test scores, lots of extracurriculars, the works, UM didn't accept her but Eastern did. She went to Eastern for two years full time, maintained a 4.0 GPA, applied to UM each of those years -- they didn't accept her but Yale did during her sophomore year. She went to Yale for her junior year, still maintained a 4.0 GPA, applied to UM after that, and UM finally accepted her. When I asked her why she gave up Yale for UM she said, "You know, it's the Harvard of the midwest thing." I'm not saying I agree with her, just been my experience. I've met several others like her who've had similar experiences trying to get into UM. BTW, after she finished her undergrad she tried to get into UM's law school, they didn't accept her, but Stanford did.

 

[Bones2008]

okay. lots of speculation here from lots of pre-meds. I saw this topic and scanned through the posts. as a current M4 at michigan, I feel the urge to chime in on a couple things.

1) please people relax about the "automatic interview" thing. the ranges for MCAT and undergrad GPA in each class are very wide. this is a great school. apply if you want to go here, and come here if you get an interview. there are no minimums. please stop with the "top undergrad and you get an interview" garbage. while obviously a very competitive pedigree gives any applicant an advantage, the number of undergraduate colleges represented in this school clearly refutes that you must have gone to an Ivy, etc. to get accepted.

2) Match list. when I was a pre-med on SDN, I remember looking up match lists as if I had any clue what the hell I was looking at. one post above mentioned that U of M doesn't have as many "Ivy matches" as some other schools. this statement, without considering the specialties in question, is completely ridiculous. believe it or not, the Ivy programs are not the top-rated ones in many specialties. this is why, as a pre-med, you should not worry about match lists. you honestly are not informed enough to interpret them. I tried to do what you're doing once upon a time, but in retrospect some 4 or 5 years later, it's just not useful. for the record, U of M matched 13/13 applicants into ophthalmology this year (i.e. a few days ago) into programs from coast-to-coast. regardless of what you believe, this is effing amazing. this school's grads do VERY well in the match.

3) hype. I think Michigan is an awesome medical school. is it the best for everyone? clearly not. no place is. what truly is great about this program, though, is something which most applicants don't get a glimpse of. this is because the M1's and M2's, who do most of the interviewing/touring, can't comment on it. Michigan has no "holes" in its specialties. all of its departments, across the board, are among the best in the country. this means LOR's for residency apps from some of the best faculty in their fields. this means having an "in" at one of the premier training centers in the country. while michigan medical school has many strengths, its most significant one is its clinical exposure and training, which I believe are more than adequate to land any student into their specialty and region of choice upon graduating. that said, not everyone wants to live in ann arbor. not everyone wants a college town atmosphere. for those who do, though, I couldn't recommend a better place.

please chillax. the process of applying to medical school is a stressful one, I know. please don't spend your time worrying about this school's automatic interview policy or that school's match list. at then end of day, we all rely on word-of-mouth, to some extent, to aid us in our decisions of where to apply. just realize that much of this information should be taken with a grain of salt. what I can promise you is that, if you decide to come to michigan, your future can only stand to benefit from it. best of luck to everyone in their pursuits. I hope you all end up in places that create a positive learning environment and make you excellent doctors.

go blue.

 

[TheRealMD]

That is exactly what I'm saying. I have a lot of insight into the match process for competitive residencies because my brother just went through it. There's a tremendous regional bias from the top programs. My brother went to undergrad on the west coast and really wanted to return there, but attended an Ivy League medical school. He was applying for an extremely competitive residency (urology) and was one of the top applicants in the national pool for the residency... (Step 1 > 270, AOA, etc) and had done his sub I/audition at a West Coast school with exceptional LORs, etc... He ended up matching into a top Ivy League program despite his top two choices both being on the West Coast. He said in his experiences and those he's run across on the interview trail it's exceedingly difficult to cross coasts.

Certainly it's not impossible, but from everyone I've talked to that's been involved with the process, it's in your best interest to attend med school in the general area that you would like to be a resident, all else being equal. In practice, of course, many people don't have the option of choosing medical schools of the same caliber in different geographic areas. That said, assuming one is accepted, at say, for example, Stanford, Michigan, and Yale, which seem to be all around the same level of academic reputation, I would say one factor (certainly not the top one, but something you may want to take into account) in making a decision may be where you ultimately want to do residency.

Unless your brother has talked to my brother, this analysis is pretty much correct. Whether you people want to admit it or not (or don't actually know anything), there definitely is a regional bias when applying for residencies that is really hard to get rid of. And when you're going from one coast to another, it's extremely difficult to switch.

 

[PeepshowJohnny]

Unless your brother has talked to my brother, this analysis is pretty much correct. Whether you people want to admit it or not (or don't actually know anything), there definitely is a regional bias when applying for residencies that is really hard to get rid of. And when you're going from one coast to another, it's extremely difficult to switch.

That said, and this may be a plug for Michigan I guess, from what I've seen, there is still a regional bias going from Midwest to a coast, there's not as strong as one as going from one coast to the other.

 

[elias514]

Like bones2008, I'm an M4 at Michigan and I agree with everything he said. My 2 cents:
a) Match lists: Choosing a med school based on the relative "strength" of its match list is a bad idea. Here's why:
1. Although name-brand institutions (Columbia, Hopkins, etc.) tend to have excellent residency programs, many of the best programs are not at high profile academic institutions. In the field of neurosurgery, for instance, there are some truly outstanding residency programs at Vanderbilt, the University of Southern California, Oregon Health and Science University, and the University of Florida in Gainesville (and this list is by no means comprehensive. I know of at least 12 other programs with outstanding reputations at "average" medical centers). In addition, very prestigious institutions can have mediocre training programs or residency programs w/ MAJOR issues (toxic faculty, mistreatment of residents, excessive scut work, etc.). Duke, for example, is particularly strong in research but not so great for clinical training. UCSF is very prestigious, but the residents are miserable because of the environment--it's a malignant place. Without question, there are MANY examples of "hidden gems and fool's gold" in the realm of residency training. Don't assign too much weight to match lists. You probably don't know enough at this point to judge the relative strength of a match list.
2. Prestige is merely one factor in choosing a residency program and, contrary to what you might believe, it's not the most important criterion for many applicants . Location, weather, cost of living, research opportunities, structure of the curriculum, call schedule, personality/political clout of the chairman, fellowship placement, esprit de corps of the residents, resident/faculty dynamic, the facilities, quality of the ancillary staff, gestalt perception of the program as a whole--there are so many potential criteria, and the weight of each criterion is based on the individual's preferences. The process of ranking various residency programs to generate a rank order list is a multifactorial and highly individualized process. Prestige can be paramount but it's often just one factor among many.😎

b) Hype: U of M is a top-tier med school and it has an outstanding reputation among residency program directors around the country. I applied to neurosurgery, which is a highly competitive surgical subspecialty, and I had no problem securing interviews at all the elite programs nationwide. The reputation of Michigan is real and it will open doors for you in terms of landing interviews at highly competitive residency programs.🙂