Univ of Michigan uses and kills dog for trauma course

[zpinkpanther]

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Very Grey's Anatomy. Haha. Lovely how they glorify things like that on that show... not that I'll stop watching it because of that... 😀

Haha, that's exactly what I thought of when I read that. I'm majorly addicted to that show. 😀

Yeah, totally off-topic, sorry. Carry on. 🙂

 

[Klhughes]

I wonder if this is something that's common just to the schools in rural areas?

It is not required at Tennessee to do terminal surgeries. The course is offered as one of our electives during 3rd year. We do practice spaying and neutering during our surgery class 2nd year as well as during a spay/neuter elective fall of the 3rd year.

 

[cowgirl in MO]

I am going to comment before reading the article, so maybe what I'm about to comment isn't even applicable here..... but I thought that a "class B dealer" could also be someone who steals pets out of a backyard and then sells them to research facilities. There was a documentary on HBO called "Dealing Dogs" about this class B dealer who was busted for stealing pets and selling them to research facilities. An animal rescue group went undercover and videotaped this dealer and his employees talking (laughing, actually) about how they would steal dogs from rich people. The dogs lived in filthy, deplorable conditions and were abused while kept on the guy's land. Dogs that weren't killed were eventually sold.

While I think terminal surgeries are a necessary training tool in medicine, I hope the medical and veterinary medical schools make sure they aren't using someone's stolen pet. Anyone know more about how schools verify their animal sources?

 

[Shanomong]

Right but UPenn has the ATLS course, so that would be more of a valid comparision, that is what I meant.

What's the ATLS course?

 

[Electrophile]

While I think terminal surgeries are a necessary training tool in medicine, I hope the medical and veterinary medical schools make sure they aren't using someone's stolen pet. Anyone know more about how schools verify their animal sources?

I've heard that it's not real common to use animals like where they don't know of the source because they don't know the genetics and the health of the animals (parasite load, vaccination history, diet history, etc) that they bring in from dealers and because you want to decrease your variables in your study. Seems like more researchers prefer to maintain their own lines instead of getting them from outside and possibly sketchy sources. But I bet some of it still goes on somewhere...

 

[chris03333]

What's the ATLS course?

The one for human surgeons. Same one the UM is under fire for. (although I cannot say that I know if they use class B animals or purpose bred there.)

 

[chris03333]

I am going to comment before reading the article, so maybe what I'm about to comment isn't even applicable here..... but I thought that a "class B dealer" could also be someone who steals pets out of a backyard and then sells them to research facilities. There was a documentary on HBO called "Dealing Dogs" about this class B dealer who was busted for stealing pets and selling them to research facilities. An animal rescue group went undercover and videotaped this dealer and his employees talking (laughing, actually) about how they would steal dogs from rich people. The dogs lived in filthy, deplorable conditions and were abused while kept on the guy's land. Dogs that weren't killed were eventually sold.

While I think terminal surgeries are a necessary training tool in medicine, I hope the medical and veterinary medical schools make sure they aren't using someone's stolen pet. Anyone know more about how schools verify their animal sources?

The stealing is what got the animal welfare act instated. Read the .pdf I sent it puts very tight regulations on the dealers to ensure that does not happen.

 

[sumstorm]

In all reality, there are likely some unethical brokers around, just as there are some unethical vets around. Unfortunatly, in any profession, if there is an opportunity to make money, some unethical person will be attracted to either the profession or to shortcuts in the profession. The regulations are there to help prevent such inappropriate and illegal actions such as theft, but it isn't perfect. The only way to completly prevent that at this time are purpose bred colonies. There are issues with those, as well (purpose bred colonies tend to have similar genetics and structures, limiting naturally occuring variation and exposure to breed differences, and there are ethical questions surrounding the breeding and keeping of purpose bred animals.)

Unfortunatly, not all rescue groups are ethical. Not all county shelters are ethical. In the past year, I have become aware of animals stolen by rescue groups (happens more than you might thing) and of county shelters that own scanners, but can't be bothered to use them, despite state law requireing the public shelters to check for ID including tattoo, microchip, and ear notching.

 

[Shanomong]

The one for human surgeons. Same one the UM is under fire for. (although I cannot say that I know if they use class B animals or purpose bred there.)

Oh right... for some reason my brain has trouble making the transition from conversation about vet med to human med... In vet med that made no sense to me, I forgot my husband had that ATLS book floating around this summer 😛

And I don't think the person who made that comment was making any comparison, I didn't read the article, just read the replies on here and asked if Penn Vet does any terminal surgeries. I was specifically asking about the vet school, not the med school so a reply about Penn's human med program wouldn't have made sense.

 

[chris03333]

In all reality, there are likely some unethical brokers around, just as there are some unethical vets around. Unfortunatly, in any profession, if there is an opportunity to make money, some unethical person will be attracted to either the profession or to shortcuts in the profession. The regulations are there to help prevent such inappropriate and illegal actions such as theft, but it isn't perfect. The only way to completly prevent that at this time are purpose bred colonies. There are issues with those, as well (purpose bred colonies tend to have similar genetics and structures, limiting naturally occuring variation and exposure to breed differences, and there are ethical questions surrounding the breeding and keeping of purpose bred animals.)

Unfortunatly, not all rescue groups are ethical. Not all county shelters are ethical. In the past year, I have become aware of animals stolen by rescue groups (happens more than you might thing) and of county shelters that own scanners, but can't be bothered to use them, despite state law requireing the public shelters to check for ID including tattoo, microchip, and ear notching.

You make very valid points. That is why the institution should check into the places where they obtain animals from. Class A (or purpose bred) dealers are not all ethical either.

 

[robeezy08]

In all reality, there are likely some unethical brokers around, just as there are some unethical vets around. Unfortunatly, in any profession, if there is an opportunity to make money, some unethical person will be attracted to either the profession or to shortcuts in the profession. The regulations are there to help prevent such inappropriate and illegal actions such as theft, but it isn't perfect. The only way to completly prevent that at this time are purpose bred colonies. There are issues with those, as well (purpose bred colonies tend to have similar genetics and structures, limiting naturally occuring variation and exposure to breed differences, and there are ethical questions surrounding the breeding and keeping of purpose bred animals.)

Unfortunatly, not all rescue groups are ethical. Not all county shelters are ethical. In the past year, I have become aware of animals stolen by rescue groups (happens more than you might thing) and of county shelters that own scanners, but can't be bothered to use them, despite state law requireing the public shelters to check for ID including tattoo, microchip, and ear notching.

I agree, there are a lot of unethical dealers out there, just read Stolen For Profit by Judith Reitman.

Agreed w/ chris03333, that both federal and institutional regulations should govern where and how these animals are being used, however enforcing such regulations is another story; there are only so many regulatory officers available to do on-site inspections.
I def think those of us pursuing or already practicing veterinary medicine are obligated to help ensure that the animals we'll be doing surgery on in veterinary school or being used for research are being bought buy certified dealers...and if that means conducting our own "on-site" visit, so be it...

Also, I don't agree that performing terminal surgeries are necessary in becoming a good veterinarian. You can def find an awesome hospital w/ a large surgical case load, do an externship during break/summer or internship after you graduate and gain hands on experience. Additionally, I think performing surgeries on animals w/ owners affects your performance in the OR and will train you better as a veterinarian rather than performing terminal surgeries on shelter animals during vet school.

 

[sumstorm]

I'm curious, how much information do vet or med students receive about the animals they receive to be able to determine origin and such? Even if they know the animals come from a Class B dealer, I am not sure it is really legal to just stop in and do an on-site without the proper USDA licensure as an inspector...might be trespassing otherwise.

I still think the issue with residencies is that the delay in starting practice isn't necessarily justified by the increase in income. In other words, I am not sure the compensation in practice covers the cost to do residencies. I understand that there is some amount of pay for residencies (as I read, on average $22k, for vet) but that is still a very different system than in med school where residencies are, I believe, required and average for 3-6 years, the pay for residency averages around $44k, and the pay difference for the extra 2-3 years is between $60-$80k/year starting income.

I realize I am not explaining this very well, but I think it comes down to vet med just doens't pay enough in the long term to validate residencies for a lot of practicioners, and unlike human medicine, companion animal vets do perform surgeries...and depending on where they are located, some do very complicated surgeries because there aren't specialists or emergency clinics near by. Of course, some people going into small animal medicine are willing to do residencies to improve their abilities, but for some people it may not be a realistic option. Some students leave undergrad with nearly 100k in student debt, and may not be able to delay with the additional ~50-100k of vet loans while working for 22k in residency. Economic hardship deferment is limited to 3 years.... I know several vet residencies are that long. I am not really aware of ones less than 2 years. I know someone said that surgeons in human medicine deserve to make more because they commit more time through residencies and such...but I think it is kind of the inverse....the economics of veterinary medicine, especially in a companion animal practice, doesn't necessarily justify the cost of attending residencies. Not sure if that makes a lot of sense. I just know what it is like to step out of school with a fortune in debt and realize how long it will take to pay that off. I will be able to go through vet school without borrowing money, but I can imagine how pressing some of those loans are for the vet just coming out. Or maybe the microecon I had to take for NC state is still just too fresh in my memory!

 

[robeezy08]

The info you get depends on who you go to for the info. I think schools will tell you who the vendor/supplier is but that might be all you get. The clinical/lab animal vet can prob give you more info on other details - who they supply to, where these animals were originally obtained and maybe some background info on the vendor/owner. I bet it wouldn't be too hard to find out if the company or even owners were involved in any lawsuites and such, as this info is public information - at least I'm pretty sure it is...any lawyers out there 🙂?
So I'm not advocating any covert operations, but its def w/in the university's right to do onsite visits to animal vendors they do business - and the onsite visit should be done w/ the lab animal vet!

As far as residencies are concerned - yea it'll cost you more time and money. But doing a residency and performing terminal procedures in vet school aren't the only solutions to gaining the necessary hands on surgical experience. You can also opt for a 1 year internship post graduation at a specialty/referral center. It's another year not making the big bucks but could be worth it in the end depending on who you intern with and their overall surgical case load. Again, if you network enough during school I think it wouldn't be too difficult finding a local vet/mentor to work with for a month or so (summer breaks or even during third year rotations) where all you'd get to do were really cool surgeries morning, day and night!

 

[sumstorm]

"def w/in the university's right to do onsite visits "

Big differences between the university doing so, and a student trying to do so or to compel the school to do so.

I will be completly honest, I am not certain how internships work, whether there are lots of variations (would be my guess based on undergrad internships), how they are paid, and how long or short they can be. I do know not everyone will have the same options. That is just part of life. Money can be much more problematic for some than for others.

 

[Shanomong]

I will be completly honest, I am not certain how internships work, whether there are lots of variations (would be my guess based on undergrad internships), how they are paid, and how long or short they can be. I do know not everyone will have the same options.

Internships are one year, salary, usually little more than $20,000. You rotate through different services (surgery, dentistry, oncology, emergency, etc....) depending on what the hospital you are working for offers. I don't think this relates at all to what you are talking about with undergrad internships... a veterinary internship is essentially a general residency, you have lectures, journal club, you do surgeries, see patients, manage cases, all under direct supervision of a senior doctor.

Your options pretty much depend on how you did in vet school, the connections you made, and where you choose to apply. The match system takes the final decision out of your hands... you list your choices in order from most to least desirable, and they do the same for the people they interviewed for their intern spots.. wherever the name of a place you'd want to go meets the name of someone who wants you is where you end up giong.

 

[3dogsand2cats]

At East Carolina Univ. Brody School of Medicine they had a PR nightmare. People found out that pigs were being used by the medical students and the surgeries of course were terminal. People became out ragged now they are only using pigs for 3rd year medical students. I think if med students need to learn with the pigs then let them learn. I helped in the comparative medicine department at ECU BSM and I saw a 3rd year med student ask if that was the LIVER when she looked at the pig. She was a 3rd year med student. Say what you want a liver is a liver is a liver. Dear god let them use the animals if they need to learn that way.

 

[BodhiBird]

From the TUFTS website:

"The Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine at Tufts University has moved away from conventional protocols in the use of animals in our veterinary student teaching program (in anatomy, surgery and clinical skills courses), to alternative ones. We have eliminated terminal procedures for our core surgery teaching laboratories and implemented client donation or willed body program for anatomy and some surgical and clinical skills training. We have completed a transition of our veterinary medical curriculum to one that strongly encourages that healthy animals involved in the teaching program not be subjected to invasive or terminal procedures. This program was a first for a US veterinary school."

This is a start in the right direction. I disagree with everyone saying it is necessary... it is not. What would reaction be if human medical hospitals conducted terminal surgeries for education? There are more than enough sick animals in need of surgery. The above is one reason why Tufts was the only school I applied to.

 

[sumstorm]

Ummm...Bodhi Bird, the initial post wasn't about a vet school. Many med schools DO terminal surgery on animals. So, I gues the reaction would be exactly what it is; some people are outraged, some are supportive, and some say 'it depends.'

I have posted above at least one valid educational reason for doing terminal surgeries for neuro research, which could easily be part of a medical education.

Quite honestly, while Tufts is an excellent school, and I have 6 offers of free room and board very close to Tufts, I can't justify the cost of attending there if I was admitted to my IS school (at 1/3-1/4 of the cost of Tufts in tuition alone.)

 

[Pandacinny]

I'm guessing Bodhibird meant terminal surgeries performed on human patients?

 

[BR549]

At East Carolina Univ. Brody School of Medicine they had a PR nightmare. People found out that pigs were being used by the medical students and the surgeries of course were terminal. People became out ragged now they are only using pigs for 3rd year medical students. I think if med students need to learn with the pigs then let them learn. I helped in the comparative medicine department at ECU BSM and I saw a 3rd year med student ask if that was the LIVER when she looked at the pig. She was a 3rd year med student. Say what you want a liver is a liver is a liver. Dear god let them use the animals if they need to learn that way.

I agree!! Wouldn't want them poking around in me, not knowing what they were seeing. 😕 We have to remember that a human's life should be held above an animal's. We are obligated to be humane in our treatment to the animals and to ensure them a good qulaity of life while they are alive.

 

[Shanomong]

Interesting side note... my friend just moved to Philly tonight, so we went to see his new place and meet his dog. I asked him where he got her, and he said she was from the spay clinic at NC state (he went to vet school there). They don't do terminal surgeries there... they spay shelter dogs and wake them up afterwards. I thought of this conversation right away when he told me that 😀