Unlicensed man in CA performing ear and tail cropping procedures

[rosyreef]

---

Members do not see this ad.

http://www.kionrightnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=13913400

 

[NStarz]

Not cool. 😡

 

[katryn]

Here's hoping they catch the guy. You would think the business name would have tipped these owners off, not to mention the conditions under which he offered to do the surgeries.

 

[168135]

Nevermind lol

 

[2short4life]

Here's hoping they catch the guy. You would think the business name would have tipped these owners off, not to mention the conditions under which he offered to do the surgeries.

x2
The owners had to know that this wasn't legit. I guess they were more interested in saving money instead of the welfare of their pets.

 

[Mohorsegirl]

I've heard of people doing it themselves using rubber bands, so this doesn't surprise me. Also, I think if the owner is dumb enough to do an ear removal (all the vets I worked with refused to do it because it is very painful), then they probably are dumb enough not to care who does it.

 

[cowgirla]

Also, I think if the owner is dumb enough to do an ear removal (all the vets I worked with refused to do it because it is very painful), then they probably are dumb enough not to care who does it.

Opinion or not, you might want to watch your phrasing. These forums are not as anonymous as you might believe. Ear cropping is still quite widely done in this country, by some very respected veterinarians.

 

[quantized]

If only people would get as outraged about all the illegal anesthesia free pet dentistry facilities in Cali....

 

[teatime]

If only people would get as outraged about all the illegal anesthesia free pet dentistry facilities in Cali....

This. I cringe everytime some client comes in and either admits they've had it done to the vet or inquires about it because we will be hearing the doctors go off about it later.

I can't imagine why anyone would even try to attempt to clean an animals teeth when they are wide awake. The money is not enough considering the risk of being hurt.

 

[thedogisgreen]

This. I cringe everytime some client comes in and either admits they've had it done to the vet or inquires about it because we will be hearing the doctors go off about it later.

I can't imagine why anyone would even try to attempt to clean an animals teeth when they are wide awake. The money is not enough considering the risk of being hurt.

I had a lady the other day wondering why her dog had such bad dental disease - she had had dentals done 'elsewhere' every 6 months for years! After some coaxing, it eventually came out that it was one those anesthesia-free cleanings. Useless. But she said she was going to go back to those because our dental was too expensive + anesthesia was too scary. 😡

 

[teatime]

I had a lady the other day wondering why her dog had such bad dental disease - she had had dentals done 'elsewhere' every 6 months for years! After some coaxing, it eventually came out that it was one those anesthesia-free cleanings. Useless. But she said she was going to go back to those because our dental was too expensive + anesthesia was too scary. 😡

Wow. Normally once we explain to clients why those places are unsafe and illegal they usually come around.

 

[thedogisgreen]

Wow. Normally once we explain to clients why those places are unsafe and illegal they usually come around.

It was a new client, and she came for a "second opinion" which she completely disregarded. I doubt we'll ever see her again. We try, but some people are just hopeless.. 🙁

 

[Graduatedly]

This is crazy.

It reminds me of how people started coming out about a couple who created a fake adoption organization that I actually adopted my dog from. All the dogs were adopted to different states extremely ill and near-death. My dog had severe scabbing and worms! I tried to contact the person i spoke with through the "adoption process" and he never got back to me.

A victim set up this website to warn others:
http://rvadoptions.org/

 

[thedogisgreen]

That's disgusting. People can be so horrible. 🙁

 

[StartingoverVet]

Wow. Normally once we explain to clients why those places are unsafe and illegal they usually come around.

Explain it to me because I don't see how it is illegal or how it is unsafe. As long as the instruments are cleaned properly and used by competent hands I don't see the risk to the animal. And I certainly don't know enough about the law to see it is illegal. If a groomer can express anals why can't someone clean teeth.

At the clinic where I was we did many "standing" dentals which are essentially the same thing. It is no substitute for a true dental, but it has its place.

 

[ekchad]

How do you define competent hands SOV? Veterinarians have training in anatomy, physiology and disease of the mouth and teeth. Moreover there is a law- I know of the one in CA known as the veterinary practice act which covers dentistry.

 

[quantized]

Explain it to me because I don't see how it is illegal or how it is unsafe. As long as the instruments are cleaned properly and used by competent hands I don't see the risk to the animal. And I certainly don't know enough about the law to see it is illegal. If a groomer can express anals why can't someone clean teeth.

At the clinic where I was we did many "standing" dentals which are essentially the same thing. It is no substitute for a true dental, but it has its place.

Dentistry done by a layman in California is in violation of the California Veterinary Practice Act and is illegal. Anesthesia free dental cleanings done by technicians with little training and no Xrays does nothing but improve the cosmetic state of the teeth and can cause people to believe that their pet's teeth are in good condition, when in fact the pet is suffering from dental disease that needs veterinary treatment.

There is a company in California that practices this extensively (I think they have something like 500 stores in the state), and the CVMA has little power to enforce this violation, so the practice continues even though the stores are illegal and pets have been injured/killed. A whopping $500 fine isn't much of a deterrence 🙄 If they would raise it to $50k/store, it could probably fix a good portion of the budget issue 😛

 

[heylodeb]

My vet hospital uses a company for non-anesthetic dentals. Primarily for after care post "comprehensive oral health procedures" (anesthetic dentals). They have been an excellent addition to our services as they are able to examine the whole mouth in ways that we could never imagine doing. Just this week, we repaired a rather serious medical issue that we would have had no idea existed except for the fact that the technician pointed it out to us.

There are several guidelines to consider before condemning ALL non-anesthetic dentals:

1. They should be performed under the supervision (indirect or direct) of a veterinarian and ideally be performed by a registered veterinary technician.

2. They should not be used to replace anesthetic dentals but as a method of having regular check ups to ensure dental health.

3. The technicians performing the dental cleaning should be well trained in not only in dental care and cleaning but also animal behaviour. The technicians that come to our hospital have the ability to work with and manage animals that I can barely give a vaccine. It takes a special touch and not every person is qualified. They have probably seen 50 + of our clients and although they are willing to request light sedation, they have never needed to do so.
(when they came to "demo" their methods for us, we purposefully brought in our most difficult staff pets and were amazed at their "dog whispering" skills!)

4. There must be excellent client/doctor communication. We are insistent to explain the differences between the NAD folks who come in to our clinic versus the companies that are unsupervised setting themselves up in mall parking lots and feed stores.

It is important to have open minds on the benefits of the well run programs. I believe that the more important issue is setting up an effective program of certifying these guys along with more stringent guidelines to ensure that our clients get the best possible care. (while increasing discipline on those offering dentals without the supervision of a veterinarin!!)

I was extremely skeptical of NAD's before our clinic allowed them to explain their methods. In the end, our patients have benefited extraordinarily due to post op care, we are seeing an increase in interest in dental care from our clients, and through this company we are able to offer something to our patients that us "general technicians" are physically unable to do.

I fully believe that people are abusing the system, however, I believe that we should NOT disregard the entire concept because of a couple groups who have soured our milk. I have SEEN the benefits, I have spent significant time discussing this with our veterinarians and also with officers of the CVMA and I think that we should all at least have an open mind to the idea.

 

[quantized]

Those are technicians under supervision of a veterinarian, which is different than some groomer with a scaler and a side business cleaning teeth, which is what Canine Care is. They require no certification other then their training course, taught by a layperson. In California, this falls under the definition of practicing veterinary medicine without a license.

The American Veterinary Dental College considers anesthesia free dental care below the standard of care. Reasons are listed in the link.

 

[Cautionary Tail]

Two of my cats have received non-anesthetic scalings (in the clinic).

Thomas has HCM with a history of CHF precipitated by the administration of a non-anesthetic medication, and we try to put him under as infrequently as possible. Though they're no substitute for the real thing, the few "standing" scalings he's received do seem to have been of some benefit. We'll probably have to put him under again soon, though. Genetics was pretty unkind to this entire colony in the oral health department, and he's immunosuppressed, so dentals happen.

Nick was having some tartar scraped off his molars recently (so the vet could get a better look), and he was so complacent, said vet went ahead and scaled everything. He will be receiving a legit dental in the near future, but I've elected to subject him to an echocardiogram beforehand, as two of his four littermates have HCM, and a third recently developed a murmur.

I don't have a problem with NADs, provided the owner has a clear understanding of what they will/won't accomplish, and understands that there are times when there is no substitute for the real deal. I'd be extremely leery about having them done by a groomer, though. Possibly because I've been forced to work with some pretty scary groomers who weren't terribly skilled, sanitary, or gentle.

As the owner of an FIV+ cat, I'd be particularly concerned about the possibility of disease transmission if the instruments weren't being properly sterilized. We're talking about the potential for swapping blood and saliva here.

 

[Cautionary Tail]

Those are technicians under supervision of a veterinarian, which is different than some groomer with a scaler and a side business cleaning teeth, which is what Canine Care is. They require no certification other then their training course, taught by a layperson. In California, this falls under the definition of practicing veterinary medicine without a license.

The American Veterinary Dental College considers anesthesia free dental care below the standard of care. Reasons are listed in the link.

Is anyone monitoring these practices to ensure that the instruments are being properly cleaned between animals?

I'm not terribly familiar with how these operations work, as they're not an issue in my neck of the woods at this point in time.

 

[sumstorm]

They have been an excellent addition to our services as they are able to examine the whole mouth in ways that we could never imagine doing.

OK, I might be totally clueless, but this statement makes no sense to me. How can one of these services be able to examine the whole mouth in a way that can't be performed either during a PE or a dental Tx in a vet clinic?

I'm not even touching on the debate; I know a lot of folks in the show and schutz world that scale their dogs teeth on their own, but still take their dogs to DVMs for dentals, so I may be a bit less phased (though I do feel most commercial entities doing this practice making claims that just aren't legitimat and are incredibly inaccurate.) I'd like to hear details on how these places are better able to examine a mouth than a vet service could, because that doen't make much sense to me.

 

[heylodeb]

OK, I might be totally clueless, but this statement makes no sense to me. How can one of these services be able to examine the whole mouth in a way that can't be performed either during a PE or a dental Tx in a vet clinic?

I'd be happy to anwer 🙂 The technicians do a 6 point probe on each tooth in the patients mouth during the cleaning. This is the part that during a physical exam a veterinarian (under normal circumstances) is not able to do.

(and I was referring only to a PE, not a dental Tx - it's pretty easy to probe a mouth when they are out, of course! )

EDIT: I really don't want to come across as believing that this is the best thing to hit vet med since who knows what. I believe there are definitely red flags that need to be dealt with. I just think we shouldn't completely shun it.

 

[heylodeb]

I'd like to hear details on how these places are better able to examine a mouth than a vet service could, because that doen't make much sense to me.

One more thing,lol...

I am NOT referring to places like CanineCare - I am referring to companies that are willing to perform their services under the supervision of a veterinarian..

 

[sumstorm]

I'd be happy to anwer 🙂 The technicians do a 6 point probe on each tooth in the patients mouth during the cleaning. This is the part that during a physical exam a veterinarian (under normal circumstances) is not able to do.

OK, I still don't get it. if a vet practice wanted to offer that service, they should be just as capable of doing it as a non-vet service. IE. 'Mr X, we see that fido likely needs a dental, we would like to do a more throrough dental exam in preparation for the dental. We'll do X, Y, Z to determine if a full cleaning/extractions/etc are necessary.' present estimate for care.

I must really be missing something to not understand why a tech at a vet clinic is less competent to do this than someone outside of a vet clinic.

 

[heylodeb]

OK, I still don't get it. if a vet practice wanted to offer that service, they should be just as capable of doing it as a non-vet service. IE. 'Mr X, we see that fido likely needs a dental, we would like to do a more throrough dental exam in preparation for the dental. We'll do X, Y, Z to determine if a full cleaning/extractions/etc are necessary.' present estimate for care.

I must really be missing something to not understand why a tech at a vet clinic is less competent to do this than someone outside of a vet clinic.

Yes, a tech may be competent, however, at least at my hospital we need to be skilled in all areas of technician duties not just dentals. These folks are ONLY dental technicians and are competent enough to restrain and probe with the correct reflexes, reactions and handling skills to ensure that an animal is not harmed during the procedure. They do more dental cleanings in a couple months than some technicians will perform in their entire lifetime. It's a matter of bringing in a "specialist" rather than a random tech who knows how to meausure pockets and scale teeth.

Could a technician at a veterinary hospital learn these techniques and perform them well? Absolutely! However, it is more economically feasible for a smaller private hospital to bring in folks who only serve our hospital once a month but are well practiced at what they do.

Discuss! 😉

 

[eventualeventer]

What is a "6 point probe" and where are the data showing that this has any diagnostic value over a standard oral exam performed as part of a physical?

BTW, are you aware that diagnosis of anything is considered the practice of veterinary medicine and the sole domain of licensed veterinarians in California and other states?

Would you also like to refute, point by point (no pun intended), quantized's link above as to why this is below the standard of care?

What is the point of purely cosmetic work? If it is claiming to replace or allow longer intervals between full anesthetic cleanings, please explain. If not, are you explaining that it is purely cosmetic and doesn't actually affect the health of the teeth? Are you telling people that they still need dental x-rays to determine the health of the teeth?

 

[heylodeb]

What is a "6 point probe" and where are the data showing that this has any diagnostic value over a standard oral exam performed as part of a physical?
6 points are just the minimum times that the probe touches the gum line to ensure that there are no unseen pockets present in the mouth that cannot be seen from a standard oral exam. If pockets are present, the veterinarian is notified. I don't know if there's any data - I don't pretend to be an expert in this area nor do I plan to become one in the near future.

BTW, are you aware that diagnosis of anything is considered the practice of veterinary medicine and the sole domain of licensed veterinarians in California and other states?"
When did I say they were diagnosing? Did I not make it clear that there is a veterinarian present at all times? This is no different to the process in an anesthetic dental. At least at our clinic - a technician probes the mouth, tells the doctor where they believe there are pockets, and then the Dr. re checks the mouth and the correct steps are taken.

Would you also like to refute, point by point (no pun intended), quantized's link above as to why this is below the standard of care?

Nope, I would not like to. I think I have made it very clear that I believe that there is a lot of work that needs to be done in this area. I merely shared my opinion that it is important not to completely disregard an entire area that our patients can benefit because of a few corporations that are operating illegally. It's important for people to understand that there are companies doing similar things...some are legal and others aren't.

What is the point of purely cosmetic work?

It's not cosmetic. It is a deep cleaning. (Just as you and I may have done at a dental clinic by a hygenist)


If it is claiming to replace or allow longer intervals between full anesthetic cleanings, please explain.

It absolutely does not replace full anesthetic cleanings. However, it allows us to keep a closer and more regular eye on our clients dental health so that we can catch dental disease starting much earlier.

If not, are you explaining that it is purely cosmetic and doesn't actually affect the health of the teeth?

see above.

Are you telling people that they still need dental x-rays to determine the health of the teeth?

of course! our clients not only receive a consultation from our veterinarian on the purpose and reasoning for the NAD but also with pamphlets explaining the process and differences between the two. They are also warned that if during the procedure, we determine that the animal's dental health is not good enough to proceed, we will stop and request them to schedule an anesthetic dental. We also do not offer NAD's to clients who teeth are Stage 2 or higher.

I think that this has gone further than it needs to go. I am NOT a die-hard fan of non-anesthetic dentals but I refuse to be closeminded on a topic that I have seen benefit and improve the health and well-being of our clients. (No, I will not be sharing the instances specifically since that would be against client privacy laws. You'll just have to take my word for it.)

I will not be responding to any more posts - I don't feel strongly enough or consider myself educated enough about this topic to continue debating it. I just wanted to make sure that everyone considers both sides of the story before building biases in either direction.