UNM Pathology: Program to avoid or hidden gem

[Empire of Japan]

Hi all!
I want to explain my situation!! i am a MS4 for the University of Colorado and have also applied to UNM (unversity of New mexico). I have a lot of family members from New Mexico in the ABQ and Santa Fe area and would simply love to move to ABQ to be close to these families not to mention the much better climate compared to Denver.

So i have been looking into the UNM pathology residency program and i have heard some wonderful things about the program and also some serious red flags (I have a friend who is in the program). So I wanna hear your opinions.
The things that really concern me are that the leadership has changed a lot recently. 2 Year ago the program director stepped down (I believe it was Dr. Karrinsky) and now recently i heard that the current program direcctor Dr. Paul resigned. This really concerns me.
Another rumor i heard is the program recently removed 2 lower level residents from clinical duties. I don't know much more than that. I dont' know if they were fired but i am very concerned that out of 16 residents 2 have been potentially removed. Furthermore, the program had to participate in the SOAP last year because they didn't fill their spots. Again i have no idea how much of this is true but i am very worried. And i have heard their surgical pathology rotation is rather malignant.

On paper though UNM looks incredibly strong. I've heard amazing things about the program despite it being relatively unknown compared to likes such as Stanford, UCSF or UW. Like they have an amazing Hemepath and forensic program. Their hemepath includes Dr. Foucar who is a nationaly renoun Hematopatholgist and publisher of many seminal bone marrow texts. Also the Forensic pathology program at the OMI is considered the best in the nation.

Pls help. with these red flags i am seriously considering staying in Colorado at U Colorado or Penrose even if i have to be furthur away from my family. I really would like these concerns addressed and am asking for input. I also don't want to pass up a great opportunity at UNM cuz i just hear how many famous faculty are there. Again much advice and help is appreciated!!!

Thank you very much!!

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[alpinebrook]

Did you get an interview invite? If so, why not just go and check it out for yourself?

 

[Sulfinator]

Rumors aside, it is my opinion that you would look better on paper as a UMN path resident rather than a CU or Penrose path resident. Just my personal opinion, though I would wager that a majority of people would agree with me.

 

[pathmaster]

Empire of Japan, I stay in close contact with one of the UNM path residents I met on the interview trail. I talked with that person today after I saw your post to see what was going on. According to that individual, yes there have been some recent changes but they are not as bad as you make it sound. I do not know all the details, but this resident seems to think these changes will make the program better.

I guess they did recently get new program directors, but it sounds like these two new PDs are more vested in the program and will be more involved than previous PDs.

Not sure about the two residents being removed from service, we didn't get a chance to talk about it. I am guessing if they were removed from service, it was probably for a good reason. I don't think it is that big of a deal in the sense that it sounds like it was the programs decision. I would be nervous if the two residents elected to leave because the program was malignant or a bad environment to work in. I do not think this was the case. True, it is somewhat concerning that they are, or could be, down two residents and therefore have to split the workload between fewer residents (call, tumor boards, conferences, rotations, etc.), but the effect this could have is really dependent on how the program/rotations/call/tb/etc are set up. First years can't take call in pathology, so it may not have much effect the first year. If they can't replace the residents it may impact you later. You can alway ask the residents or PD during an interview.

Regarding their surg path being malignant. This is NOT true. Trust me! Compared to my program, my friend is spoiled. They have a three day cycle consisting of grossing, preview, sign-out. Grossing is busy (as in any decent program), but my friends still leaves by 5-6pm on grossing days. It sounds like the preview days are up to the resident and range from 6-9pm depending on how late the resident wants to stay and how quick they are at previewing. Sign-out day is from like 8/9-5/6. Obviously, you would want to confirm this when/if you interview, but my source is pretty reliable. How many rotations or months do they have to do this for? I think it is like only 6 months total because they rotate through a few other hospitals. Now if you take the above and compare it to what I have had to do, their program sounds like a spa! On my surg path rotation, I start grossing at 6pm after finishing my sign-out/preview day and stay until 10pm. This is a nearly every-night event for the duration of my surg path rotation. I get in at 6am to start previewing then start sign-out at noon, then start grossing again. We have to do this for 1 year of residency Trust me it sucks hard.

I agree with sulfinator's comment above. I definitely think UNM is better than the other two programs. I also agree with alpinebrook and would not turn down an interview because of what you heard. I would check it out for yourself.

 

[Empire of Japan]

Empire of Japan, I stay in close contact with one of the UNM path residents I met on the interview trail. I talked with that person today after I saw your post to see what was going on. According to that individual, yes there have been some recent changes but they are not as bad as you make it sound. I do not know all the details, but this resident seems to think these changes will make the program better.

That's great you have close contact with somebody who can give more details. Thanks for this post as it was very informative. I am glad that at least one resident seems to think the recent changes are going to be for the better!

I guess they did recently get new program directors, but it sounds like these two new PDs are more vested in the program and will be more involved than previous PDs.

That is good to hear. I will definietly ask this question at the interview cuz this is a legitimate question to ask and wont sound rude if i do.

Not sure about the two residents being removed from service, we didn't get a chance to talk about it. I am guessing if they were removed from service, it was probably for a good reason. I don't think it is that big of a deal in the sense that it sounds like it was the programs decision. I would be nervous if the two residents elected to leave because the program was malignant or a bad environment to work in. I do not think this was the case. True, it is somewhat concerning that they are, or could be, down two residents and therefore have to split the workload between fewer residents (call, tumor boards, conferences, rotations, etc.), but the effect this could have is really dependent on how the program/rotations/call/tb/etc are set up. First years can't take call in pathology, so it may not have much effect the first year. If they can't replace the residents it may impact you later. You can alway ask the residents or PD during an interview.

Okay well unfortunately this is one of my major concerns. That would be interesting to hear more about this and you can PM me if there is anything that you don't want to post to forums. I would actually like to know more information about this because if it is true that 2 residents out of 16 have been removed/fired/quit (whatever), this is a major red flag for many reasons. Yes it would be concerning about having to take more call and have less support on rotations though i am aware that I won't be taking call until 2nd year (at least that's what i've been told). But more concerning is that fact that the program might be trigger happy about firing residents or that residents are unhappy and want to leave. Again i don't even know if these residents have been removed but to me if they were, i would have serious reservations about ranking the program. Though that might have something to do with the scramble. Just speculation but maybe the program got very unlucky in the scramble and one of the removed residents is the scrambler. I will definitely be asking about this (although in a polite subtle way because i don't want to seem rude). I know you are judged the moment you meet anybody from the program (even the secretary).

Regarding their surg path being malignant. This is NOT true. Trust me! Compared to my program, my friend is spoiled. They have a three day cycle consisting of grossing, preview, sign-out. Grossing is busy (as in any decent program), but my friends still leaves by 5-6pm on grossing days. It sounds like the preview days are up to the resident and range from 6-9pm depending on how late the resident wants to stay and how quick they are at previewing. Sign-out day is from like 8/9-5/6. Obviously, you would want to confirm this when/if you interview, but my source is pretty reliable. How many rotations or months do they have to do this for? I think it is like only 6 months total because they rotate through a few other hospitals. Now if you take the above and compare it to what I have had to do, their program sounds like a spa! On my surg path rotation, I start grossing at 6pm after finishing my sign-out/preview day and stay until 10pm. This is a nearly every-night event for the duration of my surg path rotation. I get in at 6am to start previewing then start sign-out at noon, then start grossing again. We have to do this for 1 year of residency Trust me it sucks hard.

Wow!!! I hope it doesn't make me sound bad but honestly this really sounds like an amazing surg path schedule. Do they get weekends off as well or is there weekend grossing?? Yeah but it sounds like an 8-6 with a 3 day cycle and that's about as good as it get. Actually this information is really useful as it is often inappropriate to ask such questions on the interview "How early do you get to go home?" Sounds like the program offers plenty of time to study and have a life outside of residency (big pluses in my book). I'm kind of curious what the other rotations are like. But you have disproved that the surg path is malignant there. An 8-6 is not malignant at all!

I agree with sulfinator's comment above. I definitely think UNM is better than the other two programs. I also agree with alpinebrook and would not turn down an interview because of what you heard. I would check it out for yourself.

Well as i mentioned in my earlier post, i have no question about UNM being a higher esteemed program than University of Colorado. I mean it is without dispute that they have one of the best Forensic and Heme path programs. I dont' care much for forensics but hemepath is definietly an area of interest and they do have one of the authors of a major Bone Marrow text book. I will interview there for sure (I think my stats are good enough to get an interview there), but again i have to weigh the positive against the negative. I'm still scared about the resident issues.

 

[Empire of Japan]

Rumors aside, it is my opinion that you would look better on paper as a UMN path resident rather than a CU or Penrose path resident. Just my personal opinion, though I would wager that a majority of people would agree with me.

Well i don't dispute that. UNM does have famous faculty, many fellowships, and an excellent reputation from the information i have gathered. As well as the fact i do have family in New Mexico and the better climate. I'm sick of Denver winters!!! However, i am also applying to other high tier programs like UCSF, UCLA, Stanford, UW etc. Just i'll be away from family in those areas.

 

[Empire of Japan]

Did you get an interview invite? If so, why not just go and check it out for yourself?

Yeah i will once i get my interview invite. No reason to decline an interview. I'm actually really curious now. However, i want to know more before i go into an interview.

 

[alpinebrook]

Yeah i will once i get my interview invite. No reason to decline an interview.

Just a heads up, they were one of the first programs I heard from. Maybe if you don't hear in a week or so you could consider sending an email or calling to express your interest. I have heard that there are generally two "waves" of interview invites, with the second one coming around the end of October (???)

 

[BeanSetFart]

Regarding your concerns Empire of Japan:

1. I would not be concerned about the change in program director. The last two were fantastic, but decided to step down for personal/family reasons. There are two faculty filling in as the new PD and assistant. They are both fantastic and really care about the residents and the program. All the residents are very happy with the new PDs. Do not be concerned about this.

2. Two lower residents have been taking off clinical duty. The exact outcome is uncertain at this time. I agree with most the statements from pathmaster. These residents were removed for good reason. The department is not trigger happy and in fact is/has provided ample opportunity to these two. There might be a slight increase in workload, but it really is not significant. The residents have minimal scut work. Further, the Chair and PDs have worked with the residents closely regarding the increase or possible increase in work load and instead of forcing to cover extra call have turned it into a moonlighting opportunity. What other program does something like this? Most programs just force the residents to take the extra work and deal with it. The residents have a lot of say in these matters. Again, maybe a slight increase in workload, but overall not something to be significantly concerned about.

3. UNM had to scramble for 1 spot last year. Not sure exactly why this happened, but the individual that filled the spot is fantastic. Not filling was a major concern to the Chair and department and they have spent a lot of time and effort looking into this. This was a very unusual event in the history of the department and I do not expect something like this to happen in the future.

4. Re surgical pathology being malignant. Again I agree with pathmaster or his friend. Surg path is probably one of the more intense rotations at any institution. I do not think ours is malignant at all, especially when compared to other programs. As pathmaster said, it is a 3 day cycle consisting of gross, preview, signout. Gross days are around 8am to 5 or 6 pm depending on the day. There are two PAs two assist. You are provided with educational cases and not scutted out to work. Preview is dependent on the individual. Most show up around 9am and stay until they are done or tired previewing. The majority of the attendings do not expect you to get through all cases your first time or two through the rotation. People stay from 6pm until 10pm. Signout is generally 8am until 5 or 6 pm. Some come in early to finish up cases, but it is dependent on the individual. The faculty are great teachers and easy to get a long with. They are very really dedicated to resident education. Overall it is a great rotation/experience.

Hope this answers some of your questions and eases some of your concerns. It is a great group of residents that get along really well with one another. The training is fantastic. The program is really a hidden gem. Good luck with interviews and finding a spot!

 

[SinNombreHombre]

Dear Japan,

I cannot add too much to what Mr. or Ms. Beansetfart (The name is ridiculous but the words are sound) already wrote. I’m a 3rd year resident at the program and I don’t think I could have found a program with a better blend of work-life balance, quality education, friendly faculty, good material, and good fellowship programs. I am more than happy to discuss with anyone how it is to be a resident at UNM and clear up any confusion about the program.

This past year the program sent out a survey to the applicants who did not match at the program and basically asked why they didn’t rank us higher. The number one response was either they or their partner did not want to live in Albuquerque.

http://pathology.unm.edu/residency/life-in-new-mexico.html

Best of luck

P.S.

The “Scrambler” is not one of the aforementioned removed residents (actually resident), and I wish we could find more solid residents like that in the match!

 

[pathstudent]

If you are looking for a program with a better climate than Denver, I would go with UCSD, UCLA, USC, Cedars, or UCSF. Those programs are a lot more elite than UNM and U of C Denver.

Who cares about being around your family. They aren't moving to be close to you. Go do what's best for you and your FUTURE family.

 

[aaparu]

Assessment/Plan: UNM is a hidden gem. Period. Consider us.

I am a second year resident at UNM: Aaron Rupp. Email me ([email protected]) through the UNM pathology resident website if you have any burning questions. I will provide objective answers because I am just a random resident in the program (saw this post), and I'm unaffiliated with the bureaucracy attached to a position. I'm just a person trying to learn pathology who wants to work with the best and most personable colleagues possible.

My background: person who likes calm/peaceful work environment, junior AOA, good Step scores, loves pathology. If I didn't go here, where would I like to be? I personally liked Utah or Mayo.

My criteria for residency: friendly program with merit and heart.

Pros: Your fellow residents make the residency (kind, competent, responsible, communicative). You will see amazing cases (UNM draws cases from the entire state of New Mexico), and you will see very "interesting" cases/presentations/pathology. Your attendings will treat you as contributing colleagues. You will have work-life balance. Access to TriCore (reference lab, look it up). Surg path is a beast at any institution I'm sure, but here you have faculty who want to teach and are obsessive about patient care in the best way possible. On micro (reference lab, remember?), you see rare cases, Y. pestis to P. falciparum. On cytology, as a first-year, you are exposed to and involved with adequacy checks and are trained on ultrasound (it's fantastic). Blood bank/coag (a difficult topic for some) has an amazing attending (Dr. Lockhart) who will take the most esoteric topics and distill them into a joyous exposure to a manageable pathway/mechanism. Hemepath is BUSY, but it's a good busy (look up the faculty [yes, I signed out a bone marrow with Dr. Foucar today, and she was as kind as one human being could be to another]). UNM is known for forensics, but I haven't had that rotation yet. Good book fund. Good travel fund for conferences/presentations. The fellows on hemepath are equally benign and frighteningly good. ABQ is a very economical city in which to live (and it's weird, which I like). Weather is mild. Outdoor activities are unlimited. Landscape is strikingly beautiful. Vietnamese food is ubiquitous and delicious in ABQ.

Cons: Derm/neuro path is not ideal (good cases, but they're sent to neuro and derm faculty), however, you have multiple AP electives to brush-up. Residents are involved in a significant amount of tumor boards (may be a positive?). Clinical sites spread-out across ABQ (I don't like driving, but all sites are connected within 15 min). Gross room renovation when I was on surg path, but it's nearing completion in a few months (won't be an issue later, but I want to convey all issues I've experienced so far). There are two computer systems you'll have to learn, one through the hospital (Cerner Powerchart) and one through Tricore (Powerpath), but it will take no more than a couple hours to learn how to get the info you want. The resident cubicles are somewhat small, but your adjacent neighbor is usually on an off-site rotation, so you can stack cases on her/his desk as you work. No great Chinese food in ABQ. No Ethiopian food either. There is a general "delay" for handling non-medical issues in ABQ (IT can be slow to correct issues or administrative issues can be delayed or require follow-up). The drivers in ABQ are hands-down the most dangerous drivers I've ever seen.

Neutral: We have dedicated lectures on Thursday mornings. Protected time is great, but it's a marathon to be inundated with info regarding calls, AP, and CP. I don't know if having an hour each morning during the week would be better. You'll have to decide. I really don't know.

Response: change in program director: good. it'd been in the works, and now you have the most attentive (the positive, proactive, comprehensive kind), good-natured people at the helm. Resident issues: a bit of a shock, but once issues were communicated, they were handled swiftly. Also, the program is compensating any clinical duties that need covered ($).

I will be at all but one resident applicant dinners because I believe this is the best program I could have chosen, and I want to convey that.

 

[pathstudent]

Maybe no chinese or ethiopian food in ABQ, but there is that great hot dog stand that Jessie Pinkman is always hanging out at in ABQ.

 

[aaparu]

Maybe no chinese or ethiopian food in ABQ, but there is that great hot dog stand that Jessie Pinkman is always hanging out at in ABQ.

Just down the street on Central from my place. I'd recommend the mustard dog, tater tots, and a milkshake. Go there around/after sunset to see the neon sign of the dog's tail wagging. 🙂

 

[mlw03]

Props to the guy who wrote in using his real name and offering a lot of useful info.

I applied to UNM for residency, particularly with my forensic path interest. It seemed like a solid program with a lot going for it. I ultimately chose to rank it #3 (and didn't end up there) because I didn't want to drive around to a bunch of work sites and because of totally non-work related reasons relating to dating options in my religious group. I remember thinking the food in ABQ was awesome, and that it would be paradise for a runner or cyclist.

As to forensic path, I can speak to that. UNM is definitely in the top tier of FP training sites, has been for a while. They are probably among the most academically oriented FP sites in the US, with faculty churning out a lot of research and papers relatively. They don't get the homicide numbers of some cities, but it's plenty for solid training (you only need to some so many multiple GSW cases anyway). I know many FPs who trained there and are very solid FPs. There's been a bit of faculty turnover over the last year, but the new chief is an eminently respected man in the field, and there is no reason to doubt that UMN will remain in the top tier of FP training sites. They have more 'toys' than anywhere in the US other than the military, including CT and even MRI. There are pros and cons to this, which I'll gladly discuss if asked.

I certainly agree UNM is worth a look, for a lot of reasons.

Assessment/Plan: UNM is a hidden gem. Period. Consider us.

I am a second year resident at UNM: Aaron Rupp. Email me ([email protected]) through the UNM pathology resident website if you have any burning questions. I will provide objective answers because I am just a random resident in the program (saw this post), and I'm unaffiliated with the bureaucracy attached to a position. I'm just a person trying to learn pathology who wants to work with the best and most personable colleagues possible.

My background: person who likes calm/peaceful work environment, junior AOA, good Step scores, loves pathology. If I didn't go here, where would I like to be? I personally liked Utah or Mayo.

My criteria for residency: friendly program with merit and heart.

Pros: Your fellow residents make the residency (kind, competent, responsible, communicative). You will see amazing cases (UNM draws cases from the entire state of New Mexico), and you will see very "interesting" cases/presentations/pathology. Your attendings will treat you as contributing colleagues. You will have work-life balance. Access to TriCore (reference lab, look it up). Surg path is a beast at any institution I'm sure, but here you have faculty who want to teach and are obsessive about patient care in the best way possible. On micro (reference lab, remember?), you see rare cases, Y. pestis to P. falciparum. On cytology, as a first-year, you are exposed to and involved with adequacy checks and are trained on ultrasound (it's fantastic). Blood bank/coag (a difficult topic for some) has an amazing attending (Dr. Lockhart) who will take the most esoteric topics and distill them into a joyous exposure to a manageable pathway/mechanism. Hemepath is BUSY, but it's a good busy (look up the faculty [yes, I signed out a bone marrow with Dr. Foucar today, and she was as kind as one human being could be to another]). UNM is known for forensics, but I haven't had that rotation yet. Good book fund. Good travel fund for conferences/presentations. The fellows on hemepath are equally benign and frighteningly good. ABQ is a very economical city in which to live (and it's weird, which I like). Weather is mild. Outdoor activities are unlimited. Landscape is strikingly beautiful. Vietnamese food is ubiquitous and delicious in ABQ.

Cons: Derm/neuro path is not ideal (good cases, but they're sent to neuro and derm faculty), however, you have multiple AP electives to brush-up. Residents are involved in a significant amount of tumor boards (may be a positive?). Clinical sites spread-out across ABQ (I don't like driving, but all sites are connected within 15 min). Gross room renovation when I was on surg path, but it's nearing completion in a few months (won't be an issue later, but I want to convey all issues I've experienced so far). There are two computer systems you'll have to learn, one through the hospital (Cerner Powerchart) and one through Tricore (Powerpath), but it will take no more than a couple hours to learn how to get the info you want. The resident cubicles are somewhat small, but your adjacent neighbor is usually on an off-site rotation, so you can stack cases on her/his desk as you work. No great Chinese food in ABQ. No Ethiopian food either. There is a general "delay" for handling non-medical issues in ABQ (IT can be slow to correct issues or administrative issues can be delayed or require follow-up). The drivers in ABQ are hands-down the most dangerous drivers I've ever seen.

Neutral: We have dedicated lectures on Thursday mornings. Protected time is great, but it's a marathon to be inundated with info regarding calls, AP, and CP. I don't know if having an hour each morning during the week would be better. You'll have to decide. I really don't know.

Response: change in program director: good. it'd been in the works, and now you have the most attentive (the positive, proactive, comprehensive kind), good-natured people at the helm. Resident issues: a bit of a shock, but once issues were communicated, they were handled swiftly. Also, the program is compensating any clinical duties that need covered ($).

I will be at all but one resident applicant dinners because I believe this is the best program I could have chosen, and I want to convey that.

 

[HmanPath]

I too applied to UNM for residency and was very impressed by the program, faculty and residents. I would have ranked it to match, however my wife was not keen on living in ABQ. Also, I remember meeting Aaron on the interview trail at the UNM interview actually, and he seemed like a nice a reasonable human being, qualities that are more rare than one would think. Cheers.

 

[Alteran]

If your choices are UNM or CU, take UNM hands down. I interviewed at both programs back in 09 (but ultimately went to neither). None the less, I as well as the people I know who also interviewed at CU found it to have many red flags (e.g. Program director not knowing the length of time their ACGME status was good for, disorganized, unhappy residents, overtly condescending and malignant faculty during conferences they knew interviewees were attending and to me personally in interviews, etc.).

While that was a while ago, from what I hear it hasn't changed.