Unprofessionalism on MSPE - Chances of matching?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

student3479

New Member
7+ Year Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2016
Messages
1
Reaction score
0
I'm nearing the end of my 2nd year and am hoping to apply Gen Surg for the 2018 match. Recently took Step 1 and got my score back earlier in the week, got a 232. I understand that this is a decent score for Gen Surg applicants, but I sort of have another problem. During my first year, I got caught having another student sign me in to a required lecture, a form of "academic dishonesty". I was placed on disciplinary probation until this year. With this bound to appear on my Dean's Letter/MSPE, what are my chances like to match Gen Surg? Rest of my application is significant for leadership positions in a couple of school volunteer organizations and surgical research (expecting ~5 publications/presentations/abstracts in total by the time I would apply).

EDIT: By the way I attend a US MD school
 
Last edited:
I'm nearing the end of my 2nd year and am hoping to apply Gen Surg for the 2018 match. Recently took Step 1 and got my score back earlier in the week, got a 232. I understand that this is a decent score for Gen Surg applicants, but I sort of have another problem. During my first year, I got caught having another student sign me in to a required lecture, a form of "academic dishonesty". I was placed on disciplinary probation until this year. With this bound to appear on my Dean's Letter/MSPE, what are my chances like to match Gen Surg? Rest of my application is significant for leadership positions in a couple of school volunteer organizations and surgical research (expecting ~5 publications/presentations/abstracts in total by the time I would apply).

EDIT: By the way I attend a US MD school
How do you know that this will go on your Dean's letter? Usually your faculty want you to match, so they wouldn't hurt your chances for something so minor in my opinion.
 
How do you know that this will go on your Dean's letter? Usually your faculty want you to match, so they wouldn't hurt your chances for something so minor in my opinion.

Unlike the current active thread on this board on this topic, where I feel the guy's actions were minor and did not deserve to go in the dean's letter but did and screwed him, in this case I feel that this action is not minor and is actually fairly significant. There is a difference between being late and forgetting paperwork and intentionally trying get credit for something you didn't do (i.e., cheating). Where I went to med school there is a fair chance you would have been expelled for this (not exaggerating). I am glad the OP got a second chance and that she is owning up to it. The answer to the question depends on where it goes in the MSPE and how it's phrased. If it's buried in there and phrased as something vague like "disciplinary probation for attendance violation", it will probably never be even looked at by most programs. But if it's highlighted in bold on the first page and says something like that "placed on probation for academic dishonesty/cheating," it's going to be a major hurdle that will have to proactively addressed. OP needs to discuss situation with her dean and figure out exactly how this is going to appear.
 
Make sure that your academic record from this point on is spotless. Also, let the deans get to know you now so they know your true character. You'll likely get the opportunity to see the Dean's letter before its sent out and hopefully you can make the case for this probation to be downplayed if it is mentioned.
 
At my school they were clear from day one if you try to get around attendance, it will be on your letter. Enough to scare me off of every trying it. But for you, I would think this would be lethal for desirable spots. Probably will get some undesirable bites dependent on the remainder of your app.
 
Unlike the current active thread on this board on this topic, where I feel the guy's actions were minor and did not deserve to go in the dean's letter but did and screwed him, in this case I feel that this action is not minor and is actually fairly significant. There is a difference between being late and forgetting paperwork and intentionally trying get credit for something you didn't do (i.e., cheating). Where I went to med school there is a fair chance you would have been expelled for this (not exaggerating). I am glad the OP got a second chance and that she is owning up to it. The answer to the question depends on where it goes in the MSPE and how it's phrased. If it's buried in there and phrased as something vague like "disciplinary probation for attendance violation", it will probably never be even looked at by most programs. But if it's highlighted in bold on the first page and says something like that "placed on probation for academic dishonesty/cheating," it's going to be a major hurdle that will have to proactively addressed. OP needs to discuss situation with her dean and figure out exactly how this is going to appear.

I feel that this is a teeny tiny minor thing. The idea of "mandatory lecture" is so ridiculously stupid to me. The only people who care about this stuff are people who have giant stick up their ass.

We are all grown adults. We all got into medical school, so we're pretty successful. If you don't show up, then you won't know what's going on. Then you will fail the test, but it is YOUR choice and YOUR consequences.

If the dude never shows up, but still aces the test, and is more knowledgeable then his other classmates, then who cares if he never comes to lecture.

But to call something "unprofessional" because he failed to jump through every little hoop, and then actually think that this is a big deal, is absurd
 
I feel that this is a teeny tiny minor thing. The idea of "mandatory lecture" is so ridiculously stupid to me. The only people who care about this stuff are people who have giant stick up their ass.

We are all grown adults. We all got into medical school, so we're pretty successful. If you don't show up, then you won't know what's going on. Then you will fail the test, but it is YOUR choice and YOUR consequences.

If the dude never shows up, but still aces the test, and is more knowledgeable then his other classmates, then who cares if he never comes to lecture.

But to call something "unprofessional" because he failed to jump through every little hoop, and then actually think that this is a big deal, is absurd

It's almost as if there's more to medical education and training than "passing the test"... Shocking I know.
 
Unlike the current active thread on this board on this topic, where I feel the guy's actions were minor and did not deserve to go in the dean's letter but did and screwed him, in this case I feel that this action is not minor and is actually fairly significant. There is a difference between being late and forgetting paperwork and intentionally trying get credit for something you didn't do (i.e., cheating). Where I went to med school there is a fair chance you would have been expelled for this (not exaggerating). I am glad the OP got a second chance and that she is owning up to it. The answer to the question depends on where it goes in the MSPE and how it's phrased. If it's buried in there and phrased as something vague like "disciplinary probation for attendance violation", it will probably never be even looked at by most programs. But if it's highlighted in bold on the first page and says something like that "placed on probation for academic dishonesty/cheating," it's going to be a major hurdle that will have to proactively addressed. OP needs to discuss situation with her dean and figure out exactly how this is going to appear.

Expelled for having your friend sign you into a class? Give me a ****ing break.
 
It's almost as if there's more to medical education and training than "passing the test"... Shocking I know.


Required attendence is for high school.

People apply to medical school because they want to be doctor's. If they don't show up to lecture, that is on them.

Policing a group of graduate level students over something as trivial as attendence, and then calling it "unprofessional" is frankly, micromanagment.
 
Not making dumb decisions like that isn't hard.

You think that's sound logic? Let's expel people for all kinds of trivial nonsense if that becomes the standard for expulsion
 
Last edited:
Required attendence is for high school.

People apply to medical school because they want to be doctor's. If they don't show up to lecture, that is on them.

Policing a group of graduate level students over something as trivial as attendence, and then calling it "unprofessional" is frankly, micromanagment.

You think that's sound logic? Let's expel people for all kinds of trivial nonsense if that becomes the standard for expulsion

This isn't undergrad anymore. You agreed to their rules when you chose to matriculate at their school. You can disagree all you want with it, but you don't get to lie about it. Part of "being a doctor" is compliance with all sorts of minutiae, some of which you may or may not agree with.

No one is going to give a flying f.ck if you miss a lecture or two. Lie about it for yourself or someone else and that's something else entirely. It may be "trivial" but it's also monumentally stupid. Any chance to weed out stupidity should be used liberally.
 
This isn't undergrad anymore. You agreed to their rules when you chose to matriculate at their school. You can disagree all you want with it, but you don't get to lie about it. Part of "being a doctor" is compliance with all sorts of minutiae, some of which you may or may not agree with.

No one is going to give a flying f.ck if you miss a lecture or two. Lie about it for yourself or someone else and that's something else entirely. It may be "trivial" but it's also monumentally stupid. Any chance to weed out stupidity should be used liberally.

Dude if you seriously think that someone who has their friend sign them into a class that they did not attend should be EXPELLED from school, have essentially their entire future destroyed, and be in massive amounts of debt. You are a cold, callous human being and I seriously hope you are not in any position of authority.
 
Required attendence is for high school.

People apply to medical school because they want to be doctor's. If they don't show up to lecture, that is on them.

Policing a group of graduate level students over something as trivial as attendence, and then calling it "unprofessional" is frankly, micromanagment.

I 100% agree with the bolded. If you miss a crucial lecture and lose points because of it, that is on you. Unfortunately, the same logic applies if you choose to matriculate at a school that requires attendance and you choose not to attend lecture - the impact of that decision is on you.
 
Dude if you seriously think that someone who has their friend sign them into a class that they did not attend should be EXPELLED from school, have essentially their entire future destroyed, and be in massive amounts of debt. You are a cold, callous human being and I seriously hope you are not in any position of authority.
It's almost like you're not reading @WingedOx posts.
You agreed to their rules when you chose to matriculate at their school. You can disagree all you want with it, but you don't get to lie about it.
You know the rules. You agreed to the rules. You know the consequences. You can try to change the rules all you want (hooray civic duty!), but until they change you follow them. This isn't rocket science.

You are a cold, callous human being
Sometimes you have to cull the herd, and there's no better place to start than the massive entitlement medical students enjoy.
 
Dude if you seriously think that someone who has their friend sign them into a class that they did not attend should be EXPELLED from school, have essentially their entire future destroyed, and be in massive amounts of debt. You are a cold, callous human being and I seriously hope you are not in any position of authority.

If the expectation is that each student is signing their own name, it calls into question your integrity (and that of your friend).

As physicians, our integrity is probably one of the most important things we have going for us as a profession. Negative patient outcomes sometimes occur because we make mistakes or jusr didn't know enough of the information at a specific point in time. However, most of the time, the families of our patients, and the public at large, give us a break because they assume we did our best because they expect that of us as physicians. They expect that we compulsively do those "little things", like showing up (and signing in) for BS stuff because they expect us to be obsessed perfectionists that would rather die than skip over a small detail.

Is this fair or does it result in real patient centered outcomes? Probably not. But this is part of the social contract that society has made with doctors. I know that when a family member falls ill, I hope that their physician seems like the type to dot their Is and cross their Ts, not because it will change anything most likely, but because doing the right thing is important to them and hopefully they'll extend the same care to my family.

I understand that the consequences seem greater than the crime, but the school isn't kicking people out just because they missed the "valuable content" of a lecture; rather, they are using the sign in as a proxy test to see who can see past the mundane to the real reasons why integrity is important to our profession.
 
Dude if you seriously think that someone who has their friend sign them into a class that they did not attend should be EXPELLED from school, have essentially their entire future destroyed, and be in massive amounts of debt. You are a cold, callous human being and I seriously hope you are not in any position of authority.

and you can have your career destroyed by falsifying documentation at any level of medicine. Why should medical education be different? Seriously. Don't lie. It's that simple. If you oversleep or miss a lecture or something own up and deal with the consequences. You're entering a grownup world with grownup consequences. This isn't even hard.
 
Last edited:
You think that's sound logic? Let's expel people for all kinds of trivial nonsense if that becomes the standard for expulsion

I'm not exaggerating, at my school there would have been a very, very high chance, I'd say at least 80%, you'd end up getting expelled for that. Getting someone to sign in for you may be minor to you, but it is flagrant. It demonstrates pre-meditated intent to earn credit for something you didn't plan on doing. It's not like you even forgot to do something and were trying to figure out how to get credit after the fact. You intentionally said "I'd rather play xbox. Even though all those other students have to go, I shouldn't have to, and I'm going to get the same credit they do without having to do anything." That's pretty rotten. The dude in the other thread just showed up late and wasn't on top of things with paperwork and ended up not matching. This is much more serious in my opinion. It's not a joke. The sooner you learn this the better in this field.
 
Dude if you seriously think that someone who has their friend sign them into a class that they did not attend should be EXPELLED from school, have essentially their entire future destroyed, and be in massive amounts of debt. You are a cold, callous human being and I seriously hope you are not in any position of authority.

You're not getting it. It's not an accident. It was intentional. It's an act of moral turpitude. It's not the magnitude of the crime that matters, it's the underlying moral thinking that led to the intent. If a person is willing to commit such an egregious act for such little gain, imagine what that person might be willing to do when the potential for gain is much higher, say, oh I don't know, when you are billing for things in the tens of thousands of dollars on a daily basis as a physician.
 
Lie about it for yourself or someone else and that's something else entirely. It may be "trivial" but it's also monumentally stupid. Any chance to weed out stupidity should be used liberally.

One of the best posts I've seen on here. Yep, there are very few things that can truly and irreparably ruin your career in medicine. Lying is one of them. When you don't feel like going to class but don't want to harm your grade and get someone to sign in for you, nobody is harmed. When you don't feel like doing a proper workup on a patient but want to get paid anyway and document that you did, the patient dies.
 
This isn't undergrad anymore. You agreed to their rules when you chose to matriculate at their school. You can disagree all you want with it, but you don't get to lie about it. Part of "being a doctor" is compliance with all sorts of minutiae, some of which you may or may not agree with.

No one is going to give a flying f.ck if you miss a lecture or two. Lie about it for yourself or someone else and that's something else entirely. It may be "trivial" but it's also monumentally stupid. Any chance to weed out stupidity should be used liberally.

Jump, boy, Jump.

Now spin around.

Good Doctor. GOOOOOOOOOOD Doctor. Have a treat!
 
I never had anyone sign me into a mandatory lecture

Too risky

Instead I always signed in and just left immediately, usually to the gym. No one ever noticed or cared. Waiting on residency to start in a few months so I'm completely done, having entirely gotten away with this.

Actually the more I think about it I did actually stay for a few lectures, but not because they were mandatory but they were interesting/relevant to me. If it wasn't either of those, I wasn't there.
 
I'm sure we all know residents would never, ever, sign each other in to grand rounds or some other lecture; and they would certainly never go to a lecture, sign in, then page them self and leave as soon as they grabbed lunch. I've also never seen a resident who used their excess food stipend to buy a bunch of starbucks gift cards before it ran out, I've never seen med students grab food from the call room when they weren't on call (after several emails telling them not to), never seen a resident put their scrub pant legs into the scrub machine then pull them out after the door closed so it would give them an extra set, just so they could give the set to somebody else (that would be both lying and stealing). I've never known med students to tell an attending they were "considering" the specialty they were currently rotating on when it wasn't true. I've never smiled and told an attending I enjoyed working with them very much, before blasting their eval and telling every med student I'm friends with to avoid that rotation like the plague.

Physicians should be 100% honest and have complete integrity at all points in their life. If you stole a candy bar when you were five, I'm sure it's the tip of the iceberg of your web of lies and deceit.
 
Okay I don't think YOU guys are getting it. I'm saying that the first time that a student has their friend sign them into a lecture, you guys think that that student should be expelled? You will never convince me of that because that quite frankly makes no sense. That is far too trivial to destroy a career over. If you're then going to change the scenario, which a lot of you have, into making this a pattern of behavior of lying, then yes I agree that has the potential to lead to expulsion. summary: one lie shouldnt result in expulsion but rather a sit down talk with faculty, couple lies later and I could see where you guys are coming from..
 
This is the 457549th time this debate has happened on SDN. It is clear there is no "right" answer. Only two schools of thoughts based on previous ethical and philosophical experiences. Debate on this is as moot as debtate on abortion. There are no more facts to lay out. It is simply a difference of opinions. Comment as much as you want on the impact of the MSPE, but for the love of god can we not delve into a meaningless and endless debate. Again.
 
This is the 457549th time this debate has happened on SDN. It is clear there is no "right" answer. Only two schools of thoughts based on previous ethical and philosophical experiences. Debate on this is as moot as debtate on abortion. There are no more facts to lay out. It is simply a difference of opinions. Comment as much as you want on the impact of the MSPE, but for the love of god can we not delve into a meaningless and endless debate. Again.
Many of these situations have nuances that are different and are worth being discussed. A DUI is not the same as skipping clinic and is not the same as getting someone to sign you into a lecture.
 
and you can have your career destroyed by falsifying documentation at any level of medicine. Why should medical education be different? Seriously. Don't lie. It's that simple. If you oversleep or miss a lecture or something own up and deal with the consequences. You're entering a grownup world with grownup consequences. This isn't even hard.

Don't lie.

Bolding this so some people ITT get it. Own up to your decisions and mistakes. Better to learn that now than to **** up during your career as a physician.

I never had anyone sign me into a mandatory lecture

Too risky

Instead I always signed in and just left immediately, usually to the gym. No one ever noticed or cared. Waiting on residency to start in a few months so I'm completely done, having entirely gotten away with this.

Actually the more I think about it I did actually stay for a few lectures, but not because they were mandatory but they were interesting/relevant to me. If it wasn't either of those, I wasn't there.

Same here. There were so many mandatory things I wanted to skip, but I knew it was much more dangerous to risk having someone forge your signature on the attendance sheet. If you don't feel that hesitation (because your judgment should be kicking in), you're either lying or a fool. Just being honest. If you decide to forge ahead despite the hesitation, then it's all on you.
 
we all know medicine is full of uptight type A individuals which is clearly evident in this thread..makes the entire hospital culture so pleasing to work in
 
To try to answer the OP: There really isn't an answer. Some PD's may care, and may simply decline to interview you because of it. Others may interview and see it as "sticking it to the man", and give you "bonus points" for it. Just look at the rest of this thread, and the difference of opinions. IN any case, the main thing to do is to make the rest of your app as good as it can be, not have problems like this again, and perhaps consider doing something to "mitigate" the damage. You could volunteer to work with other students with "professionalism" problems. Or something like that.

To the rest of the discussion: this is one of those unanswerable questions. Some people will say that you should follow the rules, even if those rules are stupid. You chose to go to this school (or, perhaps not, it was the only school you got into), so you need to play by their rules. And if you don't play by their rules, they have every right to punish you for that. If you don't believe in mandatory attendance, then try to get the rules changed via whatever channels are available -- student council, petition the dean, etc. Fix the system, don't just make up your own rules.

Others will say that the right thing to do is fight the system. The rules are stupid, or unfair. If you can get away with it, then go for it. But when you get caught, claiming that the rules were stupid, or that everybody else does it, won't get you far.

My experience is that those people in the latter group are a pain in the ass, and cause problems as residents. There are lots of annoying things you just need to do to get your job done. Completing tasks like mandatory online learning modules which usually make you dumber. Logging your duty hours in a timely fashion so that my program admin doesn't have to chase after you. Getting your vacation requests in on time so that we don't have to re-work the schedule. It is much healthier to do these things, and if they really bother you to help those who run the system find an alternative, if possible.

For the examples listed, I expect that people will have very different thoughts. Let's pretend that I required attendance at conference, and had a sign in sheet.

If Person A signed in Person B (who wasn't attending), both would immediately be brought before my remediation committee. We would review other aspects of their training to date -- looking for evidence of past untruths. I would contact everyone listed on their ERAS applications to confirm all details. Any evidence of a pattern of untruth (any major finding, or several minor findings), and you're fired on the spot. Both would be told that if there were any further similar incidents with lack of truth, no matter how small, they would be fired immediately. Whether the incident was listed in their training summary / letters of recommendation would depend upon the details -- how often this happened, other prior events, etc. I would be more disappointed with Person A than Person B.

If someone signed in and then left repeatedly, they would also be brought to remediation. As I see this as less problematic than the clear falsehoods above, I would probably be less aggressive in hunting for other prior problems. Further similar episodes would likely result in non-renewal, rather than termination.

If someone uses their food stipend to by gift cards, it depends upon whether that's expressly forbidden by the rules. Personally I'd fix this by making it impossible to buy gift cards with a food stipend.

If people steal food from the on call room when they are not on call, that's unacceptable behavior -- again remediation, non-renewal if further problems.

If people steal scrubs to give to other people -- that's stealing. Review their prior behavior, remediation, immediate termination if further problems.

A student telling a faculty member that you enjoyed working with them while you actually hated it -- that's not a professionalism problem. There's a power differential. That's what an anonymous evaluation system is designed to address. If a faculty member told a student that they enjoyed working with them and then gave them a terrible evaluation -- I have a major problem with that. If a faculty member did that to one of my residents, I would talk with them, make sure I have the whole story, and if so tell them it is never to happen again. If it happens again, they are removed from the teaching service -- no more residents.

A resident gets a DUI while not at work -- although a major lapse, it didn't happen at work and I'm not sure it's any of my business. But it is, because it needs to be reported to the Board of Medicine -- so I'm going to hear about it one way or another. The resident will be evaluated for substance abuse, and enrolled in our Board's PHP. They are not put on remediation per se, but any future attendance issues or performance problems will be a serious red flag. Alcoholism is an ADA qualifying diagnosis (not that all DUI's are caused by alcoholics), so there are legal issues I might need to deal with.

Bottom line: This is not a game. You don't get to make up the rules as you go. You are an employee in a big institution, and you need to follow the rules. If you don't, you may get fired even if I want to keep you -- once HR gets involved, I can lose control of the situation. Lying, even over small things, is a very, very bad idea. It is one of the cardinal sins of being a physician, and is hard to recover from.
 
Many of these situations have nuances that are different and are worth being discussed. A DUI is not the same as skipping clinic and is not the same as getting someone to sign you into a lecture.
I agree. Although, I am saying that the debate about having someone sign in for you for lecture has literally happened a dozen times.
 
I feel that this is a teeny tiny minor thing. The idea of "mandatory lecture" is so ridiculously stupid to me. The only people who care about this stuff are people who have giant stick up their ass.

We are all grown adults. We all got into medical school, so we're pretty successful. If you don't show up, then you won't know what's going on. Then you will fail the test, but it is YOUR choice and YOUR consequences.

If the dude never shows up, but still aces the test, and is more knowledgeable then his other classmates, then who cares if he never comes to lecture.

But to call something "unprofessional" because he failed to jump through every little hoop, and then actually think that this is a big deal, is absurd

You think it's stupid, but the OP's school thinks it is important. They are the ones that get to make the rules and by accepting the spot, they agree to the rules. If the OP wants to ignore the rules, that's fine, but he faces the consequences of that decision.

You can be the smartest guy in the world, but if you can't jump through the hoops in med school, what happens in residency or as an attending? You can't just ignore a rule because you think it's dumb. It could mean anything from a slap on the wrist to losing your medical license for not following the rules.

And believe me, there are alot of stupid rules that you have to deal with in the future...
 
Top