Unrealistic but still my dream - a hard dose of reality requested

[ssnuallls]

Hello,

I graduated with a 2.3 cGPA (unfortunately, you read that correctly) this past June from a top 10 private research university in Biological Sciences. I have been a lurker in this forum for a while.

I thought the "name brand" of my school would get land me a job, and that I would be happy. I was initially content with just working at a job that was "promised to me upon graduation" in a biotech company. This job was offered after a few years of me interning there and getting to know the higher-ups. I figured since my foot was in the door, I could just slack off all of undergrad and climb the corporate ladder after graduation.

As a result, I developed a "bare-minimum" approach that now disgusts me. I believe my approach to my undergraduate years to be the worst mistake of my life thus far. Thankfully, I have since fixed this lazy approach to life, as seeing life pass before me and being stagnant without improvement has left a terrible impression on me. What kind of person am I if I don't want to constantly find the best life for myself?


I still want to dream big and one day attend medical school. I understand that I will need to distance myself from my previous mistakes, and am prepared to face the long, grueling years ahead of GPA redemption. I understand that I will need to look at and fix the root cause of the problem - my motivation and study habits. I understand that this dream does not make any financial sense, though I still have the support of relatives for this goal. They too want the best for me, and I am immensely thankful for that.

I have taken many - if not all - of the standard pre-med prerequisites throughout the course of my undergraduate career (degree requirements). I would say I averaged a C for most science courses, and obtained many C- s. I will need to rectify my demonstrated weakness in the sciences moving forward.

I have applied to and gained admission into a few Non-Degree programs close to home. I intend to begin classes either this coming 2018 Spring semester or 2018 Fall, with full time service-related work and/or shadowing in the summer. I have never taken the MCAT before, and do not believe I will be ready until a full year at least.

I have read quite a bit of threads on the Post-Bacc forum written by people with varying situations. To my understanding, my best option is to raise my GPA to a 3.0 and try to gain acceptance into an SMP. However, I also do not believe it is possible to raise my GPA to a 3.0 within a reasonable timeframe, seeing as it would take 2-3+ years of undergraduate classes at 4.0.

My goal is to gain acceptance into an SMP. My questions are:
- should I be taking new upper-level science courses to fix my GPA or retaking the pre-med requirement courses?
- do I absolutely need a 3.0 cGPA to be considered for a SMP, or will 1-2 years of 4.0 rigorous sciences work to show an upward trend?
- if it turns out I have not taken every single pre-med course (such as missing non-major classes such as Sociology), will I have to take them? Should I retake C- prereqs?
- if I ever gain acceptance to a Master's program (unlikely, as most I've found have a 3.0 requirement), would that be a better route than more undergrad?
- in my situation, is it considered a "good thing" that I haven't yet taken the MCAT?
- will schools look at the lack of time gap between undergrad and post-bacc unfavorably?

- should I even bother?


Thank you for your time, and thank you for reading. I appreciate it.

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[DocJanItor]

Lets address the big question first: should you even bother? That question depends on your situation, the strength of your desire to practice medicine, and your understanding of what you're giving up and what you're gaining. Have you shadowed doctors or performed clinical volunteering? That's the first step in addressing that question because you need to know what you're really getting into vs. any glorified ideas that you might have built up in your mind.

So let's assume you've done all that and you still really want to be a doctor. I was in a similar state once with a 2.5 cGPA that would've taken years to get to a 4.0 (hint: it never happened). I started taking pre-reqs at a local CC and made all A's for 42 credits, and even that only pushed me to ~2.8. After that I took the MCAT and scored quite well, then applied to a local SMP. Although they had a 3.0 rule, they requested a graduate exemption for me (and, as I found out later, several other students) and I was accepted. Thankfully, I did well enough in the SMP that I was eventually accepted into the associated med school where I'm now an M1. So there's your proof that it CAN be done.

I don't think the lack of time between school is going to be a major factor but you need to show them that you can fix your problems and re-invent yourself. Retaking those pre-reqs is a must. Crushing the MCAT is a must. And then you're probably going to need an SMP/Masters program after all that. You've got to show the SMP, Masters program, and eventually med school that the you of the past is not the you of now.

It will be a big adjustment for you. You're going to have to change your mindset from accepting the bare minimum to accepting only As. Bs are now Fs to you. A 3.0 in a post-bacc won't get you into an SMP, and a 3.0 in an SMP won't get you into med school. Finishing a master's program without a great GPA means the end of your med school journey.

Good luck, and feel free to hit me up if you have any questions.

 

[ssnuallls]

Hey, thanks for the reply!

I've shadowed a radiologist - a family friend- sometime this summer for 2-3 days which obviously is not nearly enough, but the experience opened my eyes to the field. There is still a lot more for me to learn about everything. I'm ready to hit the ground running. Since I'd be attending the post-bacc in a city, I imagine even more shadowing and clinical volunteering opportunities should be easy to find. I don't know if you would need to "apply" for them though, or if you could just cold call or walk in one day.

People have given me differing opinions on the prereqs. Someone echoed what you said, which is to just straight up retake them. Others have said to focus on upper-level science classes, because they would benefit me more in the long run and because some adcoms will look at more advanced courses more closely. Which do you reckon is better?

Is my situation different from yours in that you were taking pre-reqs for the first time at your CC, whereas I'm looking to take classes other than pre-reqs?

And congratulations on your acceptance! I know you worked hard for it, and it is very inspiring to me.

 

[deleted709753]

Hi,

I graduated with a 2.69 cumulative gpa from undergrad. 3 years part time post bac then did a true SMP. Four years total pre-med gpa redemption and now I'm a second year at my state MD school.

You gotta really, really want it. I mean you gotta really, really, really want it. Then you can do it.

Feel free to PM me if you want to chat more.

 

[DocJanItor]

Hey, thanks for the reply!

I've shadowed a radiologist - a family friend- sometime this summer for 2-3 days which obviously is not nearly enough, but the experience opened my eyes to the field. There is still a lot more for me to learn about everything. I'm ready to hit the ground running. Since I'd be attending the post-bacc in a city, I imagine even more shadowing and clinical volunteering opportunities should be easy to find. I don't know if you would need to "apply" for them though, or if you could just cold call or walk in one day.

People have given me differing opinions on the prereqs. Someone echoed what you said, which is to just straight up retake them. Others have said to focus on upper-level science classes, because they would benefit me more in the long run and because some adcoms will look at more advanced courses more closely. Which do you reckon is better?

Is my situation different from yours in that you were taking pre-reqs for the first time at your CC, whereas I'm looking to take classes other than pre-reqs?

And congratulations on your acceptance! I know you worked hard for it, and it is very inspiring to me.

I wouldn't be so sure that shadowing/volunteering will be easy. In my area, they have applications a year in advance for most hospitals' clinical volunteering positions. But if you have an in with your radiologist, that's always helpful. Speaking of radiology, that's one of the shadowing specialties I did as well. It's super cool, but radiologists live in a different world. I'd try to get some shadow time with IM, FM, or ER. Basically someone who's likely to see some blood.

The issue with your pre-reqs is that those are the courses that are 1) required by the school and 2) required by the MCAT. So retaking the courses and doing well shows that you have mastered the material AND it helps you prepare for the MCAT. You will almost definitely need to take upper level courses of some sort after that. That could be additional courses from a 4 year institution, a master's program, or an SMP. But you will need a strong foundation in those pre-req courses to do well in upper level courses anyway. The point is that you need to take those courses again as the first step.

I don't think your situation is vastly different from mine. I had to take a few of the pre-reqs over again (physics and gen chem, but I'm an engineer so that was caaaaaake), but I did them in accelerated summer courses because I was sure I could handle it. It would be harder to do that with a more difficult course or new material, but if you're confident you could try. Don't take something you can't get an A in though.

I thought I worked hard for my acceptance. The hard work comes after.

 

[etp123]

I also do not believe it is possible to raise my GPA to a 3.0 within a reasonable timeframe, seeing as it would take 2-3+ years of undergraduate classes at 4.0.

As many in the non-traditional forum like to say, med school reinvention is a marathon not a race. What is a reasonable timeframe? Speaking as a fellow non-trad, I would suggest letting go of timelines for the betterment of your mental health. You are still young, don't worry. You made errors in your past, but this time you want to make sure you do it right. GPA repair, MCAT prep, and apps are a lot to cram into less than 2 years when you are trying to come back from a sub-3.0 GPA. If it takes another year, what is another year in the grand scheme of things? I'm not saying you should take like 4+ years before you apply, but if you end up taking 2-3 years thats not bad at all! If anything it will give adcoms more faith in you because you will show a longer, sustained period of excellence than just 1 good semester or 1 good year.

Yes retake the prereqs C- and below, or even the C's too. You want not only to boost your GPA but show that the you of now is much more competent and masterful of the material than the you of back then. Retake prereqs and also add upper-level science courses. Retaking your prereqs also may help you better since it will build that foundation you never quite built during your undergrad and thus serve you much better in your upper divs. If you do not have a strong base and jump into upper divs you might find yourself having more trouble than your peers.

AFAIK sociology is not necessarily considered a prereq among all med schools so check requirements for the schools you are aiming for to get an idea of what classes you will need to take.

Do also note that masters program classes are not averaged into your cumulative GPA. They are graduate level grades. To improve your GPA you must be taking courses at the undergraduate level. It is not necessarily a "better route"... imo as you have mentioned, you should do both. You should raise your undergrad grades so that you not only med schools but also grad programs confidence that you will be successful in their program.

Get in contact with SMPs you are interested in and ask them about your admissions chances. I am similarly coming back from a sub 3.0 GPA and after chatting with a few SMPs found out that while they do list a minimum 3.0 GPA, many SMP adcoms are still human and will review your application holistically. They can make exceptions if you prove that you are worthy to be the exception... and that comes by showing them strong recent, dedicated performance in your retakes. If you pull your GPA from a 2.3 to a 2.9 that actually may look better than someone who pulled it from a 2.9 to a 3.1, and they will see that.

Not having taken the MCAT is neither a good thing nor a bad thing. It is just a thing. It can be good because you have the opportunity to nail it on your first take and show that you were prepared and responsible when you attempted the exam. You will eventually take it anyway so don't overthink yourself into weird corners about whether having not taken it yet is good or bad... Just take it when you are prepped and ready.

Schools will look at the time between your undergrad and postbac differently depending on how you present it to them. Time between undergrad and matriculation is not a bad thing. If it were, the average age of a matriculant wouldn't be ~25 nowadays. It's not like they just see a gap and think = bad... they will look at what you did during that gap between undergrad and your application, how you changed, how you made efforts to become a worthy candidate. If you didn't do freaking anything and just stayed in your room for 2 years yeah that might be weird but if you were working or just doing something that inspired your change then that's not a bad thing.

Good luck

 

[TonySoprano]

Take some courses at a college or post bacc. Raise your GPA. Also, study your ass off for the MCAT. If you get a good MCAT score, you should apply to the Rosalind Franklin BMS program. There has traditionally been an over 50% acceptance rate for students into the medical school there. I am one of the lucky ones that went through that program. If you were to get into the BMS program you could save yourself a lot of time, since it is one year and then if accepted you matriculate into the medical school the following year. However, if you go into it, or any other SMP, you better have straight A's in the program and be near the top of the class since your GPA is so low.

I had a low GPA as well, though not quite as low as yours. My MCAT got me into the BMS program. I think you should give it a shot. Take some courses now, get some letters, and use a few months to study for the MCAT. The program is accepting applications now, but don't rush an application until you get a good MCAT score. If not this upcoming year, then hopefully you can start applying next year for the August 2019 start date. If successful in BMS, then you can start medical school August 2020.

 

[ssnuallls]

Thank you all for the honest advice given my circumstances! You are all very inspiring and give me hope.
I especially appreciated the analogy of med school reinvention being a marathon instead of a race, which really put my life timeline into perspective.

It looks like there is a general consensus that I should be retaking the prereqs. However, it looks like the non-degree programs have already reached maximum enrollment (including the waitlist too!) in these classes since they're so popular. The upper-level classes are still open, however.

If I plan to start in the spring, should I go through with taking these upper-level courses and then take the pre-reqs later? I will take the time between now and when the semester starts to review core concepts. I understand this is likely counter intuitive; however, this non-degree program prioritizes registration for actual matriculated students. I'd like to get some classes with good grades under my belt before applying formally to the school as a second degree student to up my chances of acceptance, with or without the intention to finish the degree.

Otherwise, should I take time to find another non-degree program that will allow me to register for the pre-reqs?


Thank you all, your advice and input is much appreciated.

 

[DocJanItor]

Thank you all for the honest advice given my circumstances! You are all very inspiring and give me hope.
I especially appreciated the analogy of med school reinvention being a marathon instead of a race, which really put my life timeline into perspective.

It looks like there is a general consensus that I should be retaking the prereqs. However, it looks like the non-degree programs have already reached maximum enrollment (including the waitlist too!) in these classes since they're so popular. The upper-level classes are still open, however.

If I plan to start in the spring, should I go through with taking these upper-level courses and then take the pre-reqs later? I will take the time between now and when the semester starts to review core concepts. I understand this is likely counter intuitive; however, this non-degree program prioritizes registration for actual matriculated students. I'd like to get some classes with good grades under my belt before applying formally to the school as a second degree student to up my chances of acceptance, with or without the intention to finish the degree.

Otherwise, should I take time to find another non-degree program that will allow me to register for the pre-reqs?


Thank you all, your advice and input is much appreciated.

I'd find a local CC or 4 year college that you can easily enroll at and start w/ the pre-reqs. Getting that knowledge is the first step, doing well on the MCAT is the next step. Don't worry about the program you're in until you've done those things.

 

[etp123]

If I plan to start in the spring, should I go through with taking these upper-level courses and then take the pre-reqs later? I will take the time between now and when the semester starts to review core concepts.

Though not recommended, it is possible depending on the course and the type of person you are. Completely anecdotal evidence but when I was starting on my postbac journey I was worried over similar scheduling issues and decided to take upper division cell bio despite not having completed lower division cell bio or biochem, and I had to work harder to catch up on terms/processes I was not immediately familiar with but I managed to do fine. Part of this I also attribute to my attitude/being more serious about my education instead of succumbing to the overwhelming feeling. If you are in a comparable situation, and you still have some base knowledge from your undergrad, then perhaps you will do just fine also. Similarly, I knew a girl who had not taken physics yet but decided to take an advanced neuroscience course and she just taught herself the physics along the way and she was top of her class.

Now on the flipside there are always students who are overambitious or overestimate themselves and end up not being able to do well, as was my flaw when I was an undergraduate. So it is always recommended to go the safer route, but perhaps you will fare well if you take these classes out of order. There is no surefire way to know. Maybe you can attend the first couple classes and assess if it seems like it will be overwhelming, then hopefully you'll be able to drop/get a refund. If you do decide to try for it anyway make sure you make use of your profs and TA's office hours!

 

[Jdp00921]

Hello,

I graduated with a 2.3 cGPA (unfortunately, you read that correctly) this past June from a top 10 private research university in Biological Sciences. I have been a lurker in this forum for a while.

I thought the "name brand" of my school would get land me a job, and that I would be happy. I was initially content with just working at a job that was "promised to me upon graduation" in a biotech company. This job was offered after a few years of me interning there and getting to know the higher-ups. I figured since my foot was in the door, I could just slack off all of undergrad and climb the corporate ladder after graduation.

As a result, I developed a "bare-minimum" approach that now disgusts me. I believe my approach to my undergraduate years to be the worst mistake of my life thus far. Thankfully, I have since fixed this lazy approach to life, as seeing life pass before me and being stagnant without improvement has left a terrible impression on me. What kind of person am I if I don't want to constantly find the best life for myself?


I still want to dream big and one day attend medical school. I understand that I will need to distance myself from my previous mistakes, and am prepared to face the long, grueling years ahead of GPA redemption. I understand that I will need to look at and fix the root cause of the problem - my motivation and study habits. I understand that this dream does not make any financial sense, though I still have the support of relatives for this goal. They too want the best for me, and I am immensely thankful for that.

I have taken many - if not all - of the standard pre-med prerequisites throughout the course of my undergraduate career (degree requirements). I would say I averaged a C for most science courses, and obtained many C- s. I will need to rectify my demonstrated weakness in the sciences moving forward.

I have applied to and gained admission into a few Non-Degree programs close to home. I intend to begin classes either this coming 2018 Spring semester or 2018 Fall, with full time service-related work and/or shadowing in the summer. I have never taken the MCAT before, and do not believe I will be ready until a full year at least.

I have read quite a bit of threads on the Post-Bacc forum written by people with varying situations. To my understanding, my best option is to raise my GPA to a 3.0 and try to gain acceptance into an SMP. However, I also do not believe it is possible to raise my GPA to a 3.0 within a reasonable timeframe, seeing as it would take 2-3+ years of undergraduate classes at 4.0.

My goal is to gain acceptance into an SMP. My questions are:
- should I be taking new upper-level science courses to fix my GPA or retaking the pre-med requirement courses?
- do I absolutely need a 3.0 cGPA to be considered for a SMP, or will 1-2 years of 4.0 rigorous sciences work to show an upward trend?
- if it turns out I have not taken every single pre-med course (such as missing non-major classes such as Sociology), will I have to take them? Should I retake C- prereqs?
- if I ever gain acceptance to a Master's program (unlikely, as most I've found have a 3.0 requirement), would that be a better route than more undergrad?
- in my situation, is it considered a "good thing" that I haven't yet taken the MCAT?
- will schools look at the lack of time gap between undergrad and post-bacc unfavorably?

- should I even bother?


Thank you for your time, and thank you for reading. I appreciate it.

Hey there; just thought I'd respond as your situation seems to almost mirror my situation not-so-long ago. Throughout my initial undergrad experience, I didn't care much for school. I studied in a major I didn't find particularly interesting (for reasons irrelevant to this post) and overall, had an outcome similar to yours. My GPA at graduation was higher than yours, but still below the 3.0 threshold at many medical schools, SMPs, post-bacc. programs, etc. Anyway, it wasn't long after graduation that I realized my desire to attend medical school. I did what some have suggested above, shadowing, clinical experience, etc., and soon decided that I was dead-set on going back to school. To get straight to the point, it took me a DIY post-bacc. AND a SMP as well as two application cycles to finally gain acceptance to medical school. I just wanted to start with this introduction so that I can quickly assure you - it certainly is possible - but it will definitely require complete dedication sprinkled with a healthy amount of patience.

Now - to answer your questions taking information from my experience(s):

1 - I doubt it matters what specific science classes you take to repair your GPA, however, do realize that many medical schools will not consider C- as successfully fulfilling a pre-req. I would suggest, at the very least, retaking any pre-reqs. which you scored a C- in.
2 - This I cannot really answer as I had a 3.0 prior to starting my SMP. I would assume there are ways around that requirement, however, that would likely depend on the school itself.
3 - See #1. I don't believe the social science courses are considered true pre-reqs., although I do believe some medical schools require psych/soc, etc. In addition, they would be a major help for the MCAT.
4 - Given your undergraduate GPA, I would assume you will need a SMP in combination with a post-bacc. since even taking several credits of GPA repair sciences and pre-reqs. would likely only get you, at most, to the 3.0 mark (and even that may be difficult without a few years of science/re-takes).
5 - I would say having not yet taken the MCAT is a better situation than having taken it, doing well, and then the score expiring given the upcoming amount of schooling you have prior to applying. Take the MCAT just before you are really ready to apply with the best possible application. Then, obviously, I would hope you get accepted immediately; however, if you did need two cycles, at least the score would likely not expire before the second cycle.
6 - No, at least in my opinion - no. I began my post-bacc. coursework ~6 months after finishing my baccalaureate degree and no one ever questioned that timeframe in an interview, etc. However, be prepared to explain what made you realize your desire to pursue medicine!

7 - Should you even bother? - I would say this really highly depends on your desire to pursue medicine. You definitely have to really want it. Before I began my pre-medical studies, I thought it would generally be without significant difficulty - I was 100% wrong. I definitely experienced frustration, insecurity, and there were a handful of times that I thought to myself: "oh, what a mistake I made." In addition, I was initially naïve and believed it wouldn't take too long to complete everything necessary to make myself a good candidate. This was also DEAD wrong. When I matriculate in August, 2018, it will have been 5 years since the very first day of my post-baccalaureate classes. However, even with this nuisance adversity, I kept moving forward and this year, I was awarded with both MD and DO acceptances! Overall, just really think about it to make sure you want it 100%. If you do, it is most certainly within the realm of possibility.

If you have any questions, feel free to DM me here on SDN. I'd be happy to help with whatever I can. Good luck!

 

[deleted480308]

Were you ever an A student in college level science? Do you know you can actually do this?

 

[GenSurgONLY]

Lets address the big question first: should you even bother? That question depends on your situation, the strength of your desire to practice medicine, and your understanding of what you're giving up and what you're gaining. Have you shadowed doctors or performed clinical volunteering? That's the first step in addressing that question because you need to know what you're really getting into vs. any glorified ideas that you might have built up in your mind.

So let's assume you've done all that and you still really want to be a doctor. I was in a similar state once with a 2.5 cGPA that would've taken years to get to a 4.0 (hint: it never happened). I started taking pre-reqs at a local CC and made all A's for 42 credits, and even that only pushed me to ~2.8. After that I took the MCAT and scored quite well, then applied to a local SMP. Although they had a 3.0 rule, they requested a graduate exemption for me (and, as I found out later, several other students) and I was accepted. Thankfully, I did well enough in the SMP that I was eventually accepted into the associated med school where I'm now an M1. So there's your proof that it CAN be done.

I don't think the lack of time between school is going to be a major factor but you need to show them that you can fix your problems and re-invent yourself. Retaking those pre-reqs is a must. Crushing the MCAT is a must. And then you're probably going to need an SMP/Masters program after all that. You've got to show the SMP, Masters program, and eventually med school that the you of the past is not the you of now.

It will be a big adjustment for you. You're going to have to change your mindset from accepting the bare minimum to accepting only As. Bs are now Fs to you. A 3.0 in a post-bacc won't get you into an SMP, and a 3.0 in an SMP won't get you into med school. Finishing a master's program without a great GPA means the end of your med school journey.

Good luck, and feel free to hit me up if you have any questions.

First I have to say, I am loving the Scrubs references on here

Secondly, I would like to say I think some of us who are considering: at least 5+years of residency in addition to 1-2 year fellowship, feeling the weight of a post bacc in terms of length of their program which can easily be 1-3(for many it’s 3)factoring in the “glide year” on top of the post bacc and for some even taking another year to pursue an SMP can be daunting. That’s at minimum 3-5 years before even setting foot into a med school. I do think it’s understandable for a lot of non-trads to feel the desire to “hurry”. I feel the OP’s desire, because I am struggling with those very feelings myself now.

It’s difficult for me, not so much the time to commit but the time my family is committing. When you are committing to this journey as a non-trad(those of us with spouses and children), they are also sacrificing. And this is a tough pill to swallow. Trying to explain this to my husband who works in IT who is accustomed to doing everything w/n the house, will now fall heavily on him.

I will be 45 before I am a full fledged surgeon(I am committed to this track). I am 29 now. My post bacc program will be at least 3 years then a glide year to properly study for the MCAT and apply. Then it would be another year before I could start med school. So, I will be 34 starting med school. 38 when I finish and also starting my residency in G/S. Which lands me at 45(FINALLY done).

That’s 16 years! Anyhoo, I agree with the marathon analogy because if you break down the years constantly in your mind, one may forget the reason why they embarked on this journey to begin with. For me, it was the death of grandmother suddenly of a very bad disease, my MacGyver instincts, creativity, my OB/GYN(who was a fellow at the time)Surgeon turned my gripes with many ER doctors around.Will honestly never forget him(he doesn’t know what an impact he has had on me).

Sorry, your post was so good, just wanted to add some additional thoughts.