Update on the 12 Year Old MSTP Applicant

[Neuronix]

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I just returned from an MSTP interview at the U of Chicago. The director there told me that it has been confirmed that the 12 year old MSTP applicant (Sho) will be attending U of Chicago next year. He came out and told me that so that he could ask me if it would be an issue for him to be in my class.

Apparently it was a very controversial decision among the adcoms at the school. Some were all for it and some were very against it. The students also have been a bit wary of the decision and the students who took me out to lunch/dinner (w/o the director) did not seem to like the idea very much. However, the director there was for it and he holds a great deal of weight on all their decisions there. He was also able to work out a special deal with the medical school.

So, the 12 year old will be attending the 1st year of medical school with basic science only. That will mean no patient contact, which is usually required of 1st year MD students at the U of C. He will then go into the PhD phase of his training and come back to years 2 - 4 of the MD program when he returns. I suggested the idea of him doing his PhD first, but the director seemed very against losing integration of the MD and PhD course of study (but it seems that things are being lost anwyay?).

So I thought you all might be interested how that turned out. Personally I would not mind him in my class as his presence does not in some way interfere with my own education. I am still unsure of the wiseness of the program in doing all that they have done in this regard, however, like AA, it is not my place to make decisions about admissions.

 

[pathdr2b]

Medical school stress in a person going through puberty? Thanks, but I'd probably pass on having him/her as a classmate.

 

[bw07]

I guess I don't like the idea of having special arrangements made for him. If he's smart and driven enough to be there, ok that's great. If they don't feel comfortable with him completing the entire M1 curriculum though, he should simply do the PhD first.

 

[Lactic Folly]

What is the advantage of integrating MD/PhD as opposed to one first then the other?

 

[Adcadet]

seriously, why doesn't he just pick a PhD first, either with or without the MD part?

I personally find it incomprehensible that anybody at that age knows that they want to be a physician. Granted, many MD/PhDs don't have any patient contact later in life, but the idea of the dual degree is that they will do both research and patient care. I find it even more unbelievable that any medical school admissions committee could be convinced that a 12 year old, no matter how smart, knows that he wants to be a doctor. I'm sure he can handle the academic part, but that's not all there is to doctoring. I've lost a lot of faith in the medical school admissions committees that have accepted him.

 

[Naphtali]

Well, I didn't apply to U Chicago, so it doesn't really affect me. But...

I find this decision to be morally irresponsible on a number of fronts:

1. There's NO WAY that ANY 12 year old can be emotionally mature enough to handle med school. For pete's sake, 12 year olds are doing good if they're capable of abstract thought! Even without patient contact, I can't believe he's ready emotionally.

2. Motivation. How much of this his, and how much is his parents? Sure, I'm sure for his interview he could recite some line, but that doesn't make the motivation his. Like Adcadet said, he's just too young.

3. Emotional and peer group integration. I was homeschooled for highschool, and I began taking college classes for credit when I was 15. (I graduated at age 22 because I started part time, and took time off to travel abroad.) I think the whole social integration thing is sometimes overdone, but it IS still a factor. I was only 3 years younger than some of my classmates, and even that made a difference. (But I still spent plenty of time hanging out with 15 year old friends. I'm not sure this kid's schedule would permit that of him.) And medschool is more socially integrated than college, by far. There's no way this kid could become part of MY peer group. I choose to spend my time with people who have certain types of life experiences, who I relate to and can relate to me. A 12 year old, no matter how smart, can't relate to my life experiences.

This kid is still going to be pretty young when he starts his clinical work. Let's say he takes 4 years for his PhD work, that will make him 18 when he starts his clinical work. Even that is rather on the young side. If I were an adcom member, I wouldn't admit a 16 year old to an MD program. I'd tell them to see the world, live a few more years, and see if they still want to do it. I'd set 18 as a minimum age for MD, and perhaps 16 as a minimum age for MD/PhD.

I personally think this is a publicity stunt by the adcom. And irresponsible, too... as much as people around here say that any qualified applicant can get in, this is still a zero sum game. This kid is taking up a place that someone else could use. To have an adcom that pulls nonsense like this would make me think twice about the program there.

As a side question, what does the AAMC think about all this? Is there some sort of minimum age set for med school entrance? Should there be?

-Naphtali

 

[deleted4401]

I wonder why it bothers y'all ...

1) I think that it is difficult to handle med school at any age, but this kid had done quite well for himself so far. I'm sure he'll handle the classwork just fine. If he doesn't, there's obviously repercussions. I'm sure he's brilliant, and as long as he can memorize, he'll be fine. I mean, the kid is doing complex equations and writing music. Memorizing the causes of acute renal failure won't be much of a challenge.

2) Yes, he is young to make the decision to become a doc, but I think it is a stretch to say that 'there is no way to be sure' when you are 12. Seriously, some people have wanted it since they were really young. I think I was sure by that age, too. Good or bad? None of us are in the position to judge.

3) The school is taking a huuuuuge risk, but again, if he doesn't meet requirements (academically, professionality, etc.) he will not be allowed to pass. That goes for all of us, too.

4) I think patients may have a problem with him when he is doing rotations, because he is young. Here in the South, some patients will have trouble with me because my skin is dark. But, that is just how it goes.

5) I totally agree with people saying he should do the PhD first. That makes way more sense. Someone who is doing MD/PhD want to clear up why the integration is so important?

6) I agree that he has a strong possiblity of being socially maladjusted. But, that is a choice that is his and his family's to make.

I would love to have him in my class ... He seems like a really nice boy. Don't know if I'd go to him as a patient, but there is people in my class I can say the same thing about. But, he's probably a kid that will make a lasting and amazing impression on medical science ...

simul

 

[pathdr2b]

UC was also the school that said I was too old at 36 to consider MD/PhD. So I guess it not so much a "problem" I have with the school, but since they accepted a 12 year-old I'd probably call my situation age discrimination.

 

[jmed]

yeah, I agree with you, Pathdr2b- I feel like I got a fair bit of age discrimination as well (being 30). I am struggling a bit trying to follow the logic of discouraging non-traditional applicants to MSTPs. I guess if you consider the probability of an individual making a great contribution to the field, it is more likely that a younger person will do this (just as it has traditionally been in the case of white males- but you don't hear any adcoms categorically dismissing from consideration female and underrep'd minority applicants...). But there are some very notable (and rather colorful...) late-bloomers, such as Polly Matzinger going from ironing shirts and finishing bricks as a young French immigrant, to cocktail waitressing (as a playboy bunny!), to graduate school and a potentially revolutionary role in the field of immunology. -but I digress...

Are we being ageist in criticizing UC's admission of a dodecagenarian 🙂laugh: )? Sure, a whiz-kid could handle the academic aspects, but I think these programs require some intangible qualities that I do not think you can find in a pre-teen: emotional maturity and life perspective. But I don't know the boy personally; maybe some of you guys know some neighborhood kids that can coherently discuss all the nuances involved in counseling a terminal patient on the risks of some experimental therapy (maybe you could get a PA or nurse to do that...). I agree with the "PhD first" route- what's the big rush to save a year or two in an integrated program? If UC is truncating the clinical part of the med program, why can't it just wait?

Re:MD/PhD integration- some schools (like Case Western) are very well integrated programs: e.g. research rotations during the med school years, clinical training from day one of the program- which continues through the PhD dissertation research, and graduate classes as electives during the med school years. Given, these students don't seem to have lots of free time, but the logic is that they are learning to juggle different hats (research scientist, clinician, academician), something they will be doing for the rest of their careers. Might as well get used to it. Why spend 100% of your time for a period practicing at doctoring, and a completely separate period practicing at research? That's not how it's going to be for must of us, so why learn that way? At North Carolina, on the other hand (which is a wonderful program don't get me wrong any tar heels out there), there is absolutely no integration whatsoever: students go to med school 2 years, completely disappear from the med scene and go do their PhD for up to 5 years, then drop back into the last 2 clinical years cold turkey. Go figure.

 

[Sonya]

I'm going to hold to my decided view point on this topic... I have a lot of opinions, and sound arguements which I've expressed several times on SDN, received a lot of attack against, and a bit of support, and that's enough. If you're curious, search for my previous threads (or PM me, if you're really interested). BTW, i started college when I was nine, and graduated at 18.

I'd be glad to meet this kid when he comes to U of C (i'm working as a tech there)

Anyway, U of C's general policy is a strong support of integrating everything. I mean everything. (sortof why the hospital is across the street from the chem lab, why three different research lab's share one HUGE room). So, one more thing "integrated" doesn't not at all suprise me about U of C.

Have fun wondering and debating.

sonya

 

[Vader]

While a number of pathways are possible, integration of the two degrees is very important for several reasons, from the standpoint of both the trainee and the administrators. The first two years of med school (of most programs) give you a broad background in the basic and clinical sciences. This can be useful for seeing relationships between different diseases, identifying the clincal questions science has not yet answered, and figuring out your area of interest. The hope is that this broad background will engender new perspectives on basic biomedical questions that can be answered in the laboratory.

As I am about to complete the second year of medical school, I can definitely see how having the first two years behind me will help me to see the bigger picture while in the laboratory. At my school, we have early clinical exposure (preceptorships, inpatient experiences, etc) and have the option of doing a clinical rotation as well as an ongoing clinical preceptorship. I think that patient interaction will allow me to maintain some perspective while in the lab.

The 2-3-2 pathway isn't for everyone, but I think it works best in most situations.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[Lactic Folly]

Thanks for the replies.
(not to take this thread in a different direction 😉 , but)

It's just that I've been considering graduate studies during residency/fellowship, as there are Clinician Investigator and Surgeon Scientist programs out there.

Not sure what the difference between those programs and an integrated MD/PhD would be, in practical terms.

 

[Neuronix]

It varies from school to school, but what it means usually is an extra year of free study (with stipend), but no money towards the rest of your medical school. For things like clinician investigator, it will be a year of clinical trials or epidemiology. For the really competitive residencies, these kinds of programs or HHMI (Howard Hughes Medical Investigator) years (1 year funded basic science research) are almost required.

I'll stick with the MD/PhD myself. I actually LIKE the research, and that free tuition + stipend ain't bad either!

 

[Thewonderer]

Originally posted by SimulD

3) The school is taking a huuuuuge risk, but again, if he doesn't meet requirements (academically, professionality, etc.) he will not be allowed to pass. That goes for all of us, too.

The problem is that med school hardly fails anyone for academic or integrity reason! why do you think that malpractice insurance is so high? most of these mistakes are made because people don't give a $hit about what they do to their patients (NOT because they don't know the stuff).

Med school admissions is all about playing the right games. The admissions committees put on a great show of how they care about the "whole" applicant. it is all BS.

 

[Nuel]

Well, my stand on this is that if the 12 year old is able to handle med school, which I have no doubt of, and he is qualified, then I strongly support his entry. The idea of him not knowing, or not sure enough, that he wants to be a doctor is rather irrational. Many doctors today made their decisions at age 5, or even less. Hey, did you ask of the boy's MCAT score? Probably he had an exceptional score. Ability is key, and if he truly has it, then I give him a "high 5".

 

[phar]

By the way, what are this 12yrs old guy stats...gpa, mcat and so on? Are his parents top school graduates?

I am kind of jealous but if i were him, i would start chasing girls..common how can you miss out on your teenage years....but if he does want to do it(i think his parents might be pressuring him) then okay let him do it because during exams times i wouldn't mind copying from a genuis kid. I would rather pursue OBGYN because that is wat most teenage guys dream of? Right?..i did😉

 

[Cal_Irish04]

Having never met a child genius before, I will refrain from assuming anything here except that he is extraordinarily gifted.

I know that young children are capable of high degrees of maturity, but this 12 year old is just hitting puberty and will be faced with advanced graduate work while going through probably one of the most confusing times in his life. Overall, I do not see the overwhelming need for him to start an MSTP program at this point in his life. He has all of his teenage years ahead of him, so why not slow down and live life a little? Even if he is exceptionally precocious and intelligent, he still has the life experience of a 12 year old. He can't gain the experience of having lived 18 or 20 years in medical school, and he will be expected to interact with others at an adult level. So, I am skeptical as to whether he is capable of maintaining this level of maturity and professionalism. Nonetheless, I am not against his entering UChicago as long as the decision is purely his. I would not support his parents pushing him into something he is not completely sure about. I think that if he has any reservations about this, he should not do it. So, while I wasn't deciding whether I was going to be a doctor when I was 12, I still feel that if I were placed in the same position, I would probably not feel comfortable with making such a huge decision at such an early stage.

Just my two cents!