Updated Medical Student Debt Fact Card from the AAMC released

Discussion in 'Allopathic' started by mcrobbit, 10.30.14.

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  1. mcrobbit

    mcrobbit Navigating 1st year 2+ Year Member

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  3. Pacna

    Pacna Dyslexics, untie! 2+ Year Member

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  4. SouthernSurgeon

    SouthernSurgeon Lifetime Donor 7+ Year Member

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    That's some scary stuff
     
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  5. NickNaylor

    NickNaylor Daisy the Dog Lifetime Donor 7+ Year Member

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  6. DermViser

    DermViser 5+ Year Member

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    And premeds hoot and holler why I say depending on the specialty (not just primary care either), PA or NP would be a much better route to relatively the same destination (esp. with impending loosening of scope of practice laws). I think these numbers will be more and more pertinent once finally the number of US medical school graduates = number of total residency positions (many of them being dead-end prelim positions). Many of those LCME-accredited medical schools have no business charging the level of tuition they do - many of them on par with top-tier medical schools. It's increasing tuition with same if not lesser value.

    I would never recommend someone born into a middle-class or even slightly upper middle-class family to take the level of debt that medical students are taking these days with compounding interest. It's the perfect recipe for financial disaster.
     
  7. SouthernSurgeon

    SouthernSurgeon Lifetime Donor 7+ Year Member

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    Those numbers for private schools are crazy. Especially when you consider that about 20 % of the class has no debt at all and thus skews the averages...
     
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  8. circulus vitios

    circulus vitios 7+ Year Member

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    I don't understand how private school mean/median is $190k/200k. I know medical students on average come from well-off families, but they list the median COA for a private school at almost $300k. The average medical student's family can contribute $110k to their education? Crazy.
     
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  9. Jabbed

    Jabbed 2+ Year Member

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    That is why there are medians.
     
  10. Jabbed

    Jabbed 2+ Year Member

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    I thought that was interesting too. Even though COA for private is greater and the average indebtedness is higher, fewer private school students take out loans compared to public schools.
     
  11. SouthernSurgeon

    SouthernSurgeon Lifetime Donor 7+ Year Member

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    I think it's largely that the "average" student with 200K in debt is a bit of a myth.

    You have 18% with no debt at all.

    You probably also have a good chunk with 100% debt on the other end of the spectrum.

    I'd be more interested to see statistics like standard deviation or interquartile ranges, or break the data down into quantiles.
     
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  12. SouthernSurgeon

    SouthernSurgeon Lifetime Donor 7+ Year Member

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    Wow thanks for clarifying :rolleyes:
     
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  13. circulus vitios

    circulus vitios 7+ Year Member

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    I plan on using PAYE. Let Uncle Sam bear the burden.
     
  14. Jabbed

    Jabbed 2+ Year Member

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    Surprised that only 34% of graduates have any pre-med debt (median = 20k). Lots of undergrad scholarships going around it seems.
     
  15. circulus vitios

    circulus vitios 7+ Year Member

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    Or a statistical analysis that throws out everyone with obscene low levels of debt from family contributions or scholarships. I can't believe they published this study as it is -- it's so disingenuous when you include obvious outliers.
     
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  16. DermViser

    DermViser 5+ Year Member

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    Yup. It's one thing if it's a private, top-tier medical school where one has a slew of research opportunities at your disposal, has every single residency/fellowship available, ability to connect with big-wigs who can write fantastic LORs, etc. thus making it completely worth it for the applicant. In those cases, it's an academic smorgasbord.

    https://services.aamc.org/tsfreports/report.cfm?select_control=PRI&year_of_study=2014

    BU has absolutely no business charging higher tuition and fees than Harvard.
    Same for SLU vs. Wash U.
    Same for Meharry vs. Vanderbilt.

    All this, when the first 2 years are relatively independent study (due to an explosion of test prep resources), where the physical diagnosis course leaves much to be desired, M3 has become much less hands-on and students are much more (maybe too much) protected from what residency will really be like, simulators are taking the place of real patients, etc.

    Nerd alert -- I like looking at the tuition in prior years and then using the inflation calculator: http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl to see what it actually should be now, inflation adjusted.

    So as an example, in 1996-1997, tuition at Wash U was $27,435 per year, which should be $40,688 dollars per year in 2014, adjusted for inflation.
    Wash U in 2014 actually charges $54,050 per year, thus charging $13,362 more per year ($53,448 more total). I mean what exactly is that difference going to, and can we really say that med students now are being educated better, to justify that huge cost increase?
     
    Last edited: 10.30.14
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  17. Hemorrage

    Hemorrage Ambrose 5+ Year Member

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    I have yet to understand how the median private school debt is 200k when COA is getting closer to ~320k for the four years. Do that many people have parental aid?
     
  18. DermViser

    DermViser 5+ Year Member

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    No, lots of undergrads in the top quartile of family income, it seems.
     
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  19. DermViser

    DermViser 5+ Year Member

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    Have you not seen the Asian students here whose parents pay their tuition in full?
     
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  20. DermViser

    DermViser 5+ Year Member

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    A little dated (2008): https://www.aamc.org/download/102338/data/aibvol8no1.pdf
     
  21. DermViser

    DermViser 5+ Year Member

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    You're assuming PAYE will always be there. It's completely up to the federal govt. to continue. I prefer to not put my full trust in assuming the govt. will continue that luxury, esp. in times of deficit reduction.
     
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  22. circulus vitios

    circulus vitios 7+ Year Member

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    The explosion of administrative jobs. Dozens and dozens of committees and sub-committees, full of people doing absolutely nothing of importance.
     
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  23. circulus vitios

    circulus vitios 7+ Year Member

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    Can't get blood from a stone.
     
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  24. midweststudent1

    midweststudent1 2+ Year Member

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    The best thing to do---get outta residency, live like a resident for 3 yrs--pay off debt---become rich with no payments

    Reference dave ramsey debt free testimonies for some AWESOME physician stories
     
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  25. DermViser

    DermViser 5+ Year Member

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    What do you mean? Those committees and subcommittees - Admissions, Curriculum, Promotions, etc. are done by people who are trying to go for tenure - you don't need to hire extra people for those positions. Many of those positions: Dean of the medical school, Dean of Student Affairs, etc. are mandated by the LCME.
     
  26. DermViser

    DermViser 5+ Year Member

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    Can't they garnish your wages?
     
  27. circulus vitios

    circulus vitios 7+ Year Member

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    I don't know. I can't even keep track of them. It seems every week I hear about or get an e-mail from an administrator I've never met before. Many of them aren't teaching or research faculty i.e. they're dead weight, mandated or not.

    Probably? There is (was?) proposed legislation that would make changes to IBR/PAYE: removal of IBR and placing everyone on PAYE with a slight extension of 25 years of repayment from 20 years of repayment.

    If they ever completely removed PAYE and attempted to garnish my wages, I'd tell the federal government to s my d and just move to another country.
     
  28. makingthejump

    makingthejump

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    This. I currently live on a 35k salary and do fine. If graduated medical school with 250k debt, made 180k to start and lived at my current 35k level, there would be no reason I couldn't be debt free very quickly. The problem can be summed up in one word... "entitlement.". Too many people, especially younger non-trads, graduate these expensive professional schools and feel they are entitled to everything just b/c they went through all the education. This mindset, I believe, is the number one reason many college grads have so much debt. They have no plan in place to effectively pay down the principal amount and combine that with a ridiculous sense of self-entitlement, they are a financial mess for many years to come.
     
  29. DermViser

    DermViser 5+ Year Member

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    Don't get me wrong there are many dead weight faculty members --- usually the ones who have an MA/Ph.D in Sociology/Psychology/Communication Studies/(insert non-science degree) who are hired to teach professionalism, empathy, yada yada, and do their soft research to turn in to the journal Academic Medicine with their medical students as their guinea pigs. Can't teach medical students about medical billing, but they can sure waste time on that ****.

    I wonder if dental schools have the same dead weight. Maybe @fancymylotus can tell us.
     
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  30. circulus vitios

    circulus vitios 7+ Year Member

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    With PAYE, it doesn't really make sense to live like a resident. You can invest the money that you would otherwise be dumping into student loans.
     
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  31. fancymylotus

    fancymylotus I Shooz 2B Fancy 10+ Year Member

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    you rang?

    yeah, we had a handful of dead weight types who taught useless courses
     
  32. DermViser

    DermViser 5+ Year Member

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    When you have 6 figure debt (a mortgage with no house) and years of delayed gratification, you tell me that you won't feel just a little bit entitled. I know how we can solve this problem - let's add Sociology, Psychology, and Biochemistry to the MCAT with the excuse that medicine is changing oh so fast and will be so much different when we're practicing it vs. when our attendings practiced.

     
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  33. DermViser

    DermViser 5+ Year Member

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    Like?
     
  34. fancymylotus

    fancymylotus I Shooz 2B Fancy 10+ Year Member

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    therapeutic alliances btw dr and patient
    professionalism
    can epi be tossed into the useless category? bc it was useless
    a course about empathy btw socioeconomic divides
    etc

    i graduated a few years ago and have purposefully blanked out a lot of the horrors of dental school...so there are probably other courses, im just forgetting them atm.
     
  35. SouthernSurgeon

    SouthernSurgeon Lifetime Donor 7+ Year Member

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    Yes. I consider myself fairly debt averse (never carry any credit card debt, my car is fully paid off, etc). But there are situations where it just makes sense - PAYE and even more so for people my age PSLF being one of those
     
  36. fancymylotus

    fancymylotus I Shooz 2B Fancy 10+ Year Member

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    apparently tesla lease prices just dropped.

    i want a tesla :punch::punch::punch::punch:
     
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  37. DermViser

    DermViser 5+ Year Member

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    And what if Congress decides to change the stipulations of PAYE or PSLF or get rid of it altogether?
     
  38. DermViser

    DermViser 5+ Year Member

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    I guess the horror is over at the end of 4 years, with no residency required to practice, and your NBDE boards being pass/fail now.
     
  39. SouthernSurgeon

    SouthernSurgeon Lifetime Donor 7+ Year Member

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    I in general share your fear/distrust of the government. But my most recent understanding after trying to learn more about the proposed PSLF cap is that they can't change the existing promissory notes for those already in repayment, and the cap will only be applicable moving forward.
     
  40. fancymylotus

    fancymylotus I Shooz 2B Fancy 10+ Year Member

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    not all states let you practice without a residency, and the NBDE was not p/f when i took it.
     
  41. SouthernSurgeon

    SouthernSurgeon Lifetime Donor 7+ Year Member

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    I've been on the left coast all week and there are so many teslas. I looked into renting one for a day and driving up the coast bit couldn't justify the expense. Plus a wine country man-date with my coresidents seemed odd.
     
  42. fancymylotus

    fancymylotus I Shooz 2B Fancy 10+ Year Member

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    the awd version doesnt deliver till feb ><
    also now that you told me that there are a ton of them on the inferior coast, i no longer want one

    edit. oh, youre in SF arent you
     
  43. DermViser

    DermViser 5+ Year Member

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    Is this a recent development?
     
  44. DermViser

    DermViser 5+ Year Member

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    Um, why?
     
  45. Shov

    Shov Jokester 5+ Year Member

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    That article makes me feel less guilty about using all those quarters I find to play the state lottery. I have like a 1/6000000 chance of graduating debt free + a tesla!
     
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  46. SouthernSurgeon

    SouthernSurgeon Lifetime Donor 7+ Year Member

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    Was. Gone now. This meetings way too long. I'm in mild liver failure.
     
  47. circulus vitios

    circulus vitios 7+ Year Member

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    That idiot jerkoff probably hasn't practiced medicine since the mid 90s, either.
     
  48. fancymylotus

    fancymylotus I Shooz 2B Fancy 10+ Year Member

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    Enjoyed Napa, huh? :)

    I was there in April for a dental thing, lasted like 2.5 days, had to come back to NY
     
  49. DermViser

    DermViser 5+ Year Member

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    Being the head of the AAMC pays big bucks, definitely more than his psychiatry practice I am sure, to get the pleasure to hob nob with bigwigs, congresspeople, fly to give lectures at medical schools, etc. One of his talks with Ezekiel Emmanuel, was in freakin' ASPEN. Probably helps to have a wife a little more than half his age (you can see her on Google Images).
     
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  50. DermViser

    DermViser 5+ Year Member

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    Conferences are fun. Although not for the actual content of the conference itself.
     
  51. fancymylotus

    fancymylotus I Shooz 2B Fancy 10+ Year Member

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    every conf ive ever been to has always ACTUALLY been an alcohol-fueled sexfest.

    not even joking.

    the annual ADA conf is a prime example.
     
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