UPenn or UMaryland?

[devildentist]

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Hey!

Just heard back from Dental Schools yesterday, and received acceptances to both UPenn and UMaryland! I'm conflicted between the two choices, and was wondering if the ever-helpful members of SDN could give me some advice. I've listed the points that I've thought about for each school below:

UPenn
1. location - I grew up in philadelphia and have both close friends and grandparents living in the area.
2. specialization - UPenn has an extremely good specialization rate (above 50% of each graduating class?). And I do have aspirations of specializing.
3. facilities - the "dungeon" classrooms and clinical areas aren't the most up to date, but still functional
4. curriculum style - block courses, 1 exam per week
5. cost - ~$65k/year (I was offered a scholarship)

UMaryland
1. location - my parents live in DC so it would only be an hour away, however I have no friends/family directly in Baltimore
2. specialization - I feel as if UMaryland is better known for producing general dentists. I would prefer to attend a program with a better chance of specialization matching.
3. facilities - absolutely amazing, pretty much unbeatable.
4. curriculum style - "regular"/non-block, maybe 3-4 exams occurring all at once every 2-3 weeks
5. cost - ~$62k/year (I was offered a scholarship and am in-state)

Since the cost of attending either school is pretty much equal for me, I want to make my decision based on other factors, such as location, program quality, and additional opportunities (ie research, community service, externships, etc.). Can anyone give me their opinions about which choice they think is the better one and why? Any corrections to the points I've already listed or additional supporting points for either school would be GREATLY appreciated!

Thanks so much for reading, congrats to all of my fellow pre-dents who received acceptances, and happy holidays!!

 

[docwannabe777]

UPenn is a great school, but if you have a scholarship and are in state... better to not be in debt. You can still specialize with GOOD grades.

 

[devildentist]

To clarify, the cost of attending either school is THE SAME for me so I want to base my decision on the qualities of the school and location only.

 

[KillaCam]

I was in the same situation as you are last year and I decided to go with Penn rather than Marylandfor the following reasons:

1.) Stronger academic curriculum: they are very medically-oriented even though we will not take classes with the med students. If you are thinking of OMFS, you know that you now have to take the NBME and dental school will not prepare you for this! Take whatever medically-oriented curriculum you can because it will only help (for even all specialties actually...)

2.) Specialization: They take Part 1 boards after 2nd year as opposed to 1st year in Maryland. Also, because I am heavily leaning towards specializing I know that they do a fantastic job of putting people in a great position to do so. Now that it is P/F not sure if you care when you take it

3.) Selectives Program: I thought this was very unique of UPenn and can be useful for learning about unique aspects of dentistry that we could not get elsewhere.

4.) I liked Philly a little more than Baltimore. B-more wasn't as bad as some report, but I liked how Penn was on the undergrad campus, a big cool historic place that I never got to experience in Idaho. Now that I am at UCLA, I like how there are things going on around campus that aren't always just DS related. For me, it is good for my short breaks from studying.......

5.) Clinic: I know Maryland are very good at this too but I liked how I will become a dental assistant in my first year at Penn. This will allow for great exposure to the "real" aspects of clinical dentistry as I will be helping out with patients and allow me to learn things from the older students. Maryland has better facilities though......

6.) Required externships: the 4-week long externships will make me go to places that i might be interested in specializing. This will undoubtedly only help expand my experiences in whatever specializing field I decide to go into. Both apparently have them......

I have lots more but it really didn't take me long to weigh out that Penn would push me beyond what I might get at Maryland. Again, this is all from my perspective and my limited experiences at the interviews.

Feel free to PM me if you want more info or to discuss more specifics....congrats and good luck!!

 

[enghead]

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[devildentist]

Thanks for your thoughts, KillaCam! Can anyone else voice their opinions? The more the better!

 

[AwesomeTeeth]

I would go with UPenn on this just because I think Philly is way cooler then Baltimore. Also, the only big positive I see with Maryland on your list are that the facilities. It's nice playing with new toys and shiny gadgets, but bottom line, they still do the same thing as the old stuff. Obviously the facilities and equipment at UPenn has been working decently if they've managed to be a top notch school all these years.

Would you rather sit in an dusty old chair or a shiny new chair? It's still a chair.
Would you rather sit in a classroom in a basement or with a nice skyline view? It's just a classroom.

I know there's fancier/nicer equipment out there and this is just a generalization. But you get the idea.

 

[KillaCam]

One other thing that I forgot to mention:

Maryland has all of the classes video recorded so there is not much of a need to go to class. What I have heard from a friend there is that the best students actually end up never going to class,they stay home and watch the videos at 2X the pace of the actual lecture. It allows them to still understand the material but cut their time in half. All the time they save they can use on studying for other things. Whether you end up doing this is up to you but that means spending more time at home, which makes the nice facilities less relevant for the first 1-2 years (unless you like to study at the school).

 

[supermax]

One other thing that I forgot to mention:

Maryland has all of the classes video recorded so there is not much of a need to go to class. What I have heard from a friend there is that the best students actually end up never going to class,they stay home and watch the videos at 2X the pace of the actual lecture. It allows them to still understand the material but cut their time in half. All the time they save they can use on studying for other things. Whether you end up doing this is up to you but that means spending more time at home, which makes the nice facilities less relevant for the first 1-2 years (unless you like to study at the school).

Killacam is right. I am a D2 student at Maryland. I have to study independently a lot and highly competitive among each other. All students try to pull each other down and don't share old exams etc. Even though school is new and nice but we are put in the worse rooms for labs etc. Once you finish your first two years of dental school, you feel more heat when students try to take each other patients. I don't recommend Maryland at any cost. I did it because it was beautiful outside. I would be more happy at another school.

 

[supermax]

A classmate made this video, you will to learn everything about the school:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc7acAWlSZA

 

[Demps]

Killacam is right. I am a D2 student at Maryland. I have to study independently a lot and highly competitive among each other. All students try to pull each other down and don't share old exams etc. Even though school is new and nice but we are put in the worse rooms for labs etc. Once you finish your first two years of dental school, you feel more heat when students try to take each other patients. I don't recommend Maryland at any cost. I did it because it was beautiful outside. I would be more happy at another school.

Really? I thought most of dental students try to help out one another? If it is really like that in Maryland as you stated, damn I have to reconsider lol.

 

[supermax]

Really? I thought most of dental students try to help out one another? If it is really like that in Maryland as you stated, damn I have to reconsider lol.

Students don't help each other. Some students are crazy to get into the post-grad programs. They do everything to pull you down so they can get the top 10 rankings. Faculty to student ratio went down as 13 full-time faculty left last year and only 2 were replaced.

 

[devildentist]

thanks for your thoughts, supermax. While I didn't get a competitive vibe from the students at Maryland when I visited for my interview, I can see how the classes might get competitive. However I'm not sure if this competitiveness among the student body is especially strong at Maryland or if it's just something that's found to some extent at every dental school. Dental students have also told me that each class varies in the amount of competitiveness between classmates so it's almost a gamble no matter where you go. Your personal account has definitely made an impression on me though. Thanks again!

can anyone else give a testimony from Penn or Maryland, or just has a general opinion to give?

 

[flyingforever]

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[supermax]

To Devildentist: A classmate made this video, you will to learn everything about the school:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc7acAWlSZA

Cons:

1. classes are too full
2. budget cuts, school lost 13 professors and not replacing them all last year
3. not enough clinic chairs
4. students are too competitive and cut throat (there isn't a great sense of community)
5. hard to find patients and retain patients for specific treatments and requirements
6. too much focus (in my opinion) on research and didatic studies versus clinic
7. too much extra bull**** work, like papers
8. not enough focus on clinical, too much red tape to get through just to get procedures done
9. tough perio department

I am a D2 student at Maryland. Its shiny outside but heartless inside.

 

[devildentist]

To Devildentist: A classmate made this video, you will to learn everything about the school:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc7acAWlSZA

Cons:

1. classes are too full
2. budget cuts, school lost 13 professors and not replacing them all last year
3. not enough clinic chairs
4. students are too competitive and cut throat (there isn't a great sense of community)
5. hard to find patients and retain patients for specific treatments and requirements
6. too much focus (in my opinion) on research and didatic studies versus clinic
7. too much extra bull**** work, like papers
8. not enough focus on clinical, too much red tape to get through just to get procedures done
9. tough perio department

I am a D2 student at Maryland. Its shiny outside but heartless inside.

Hmm... can anyone confirm these points that supermax made? The budget cuts and loss of 13 full-time faculty are definitely disconcerting, although the other points I could see occurring at most other dental schools with similar class sizes as Maryland. Also, I'm not sure how you could know about the "red tape in getting procedures done" or "tough perio dpt" if you're a D2, unless Maryland puts students in the clinic early or you heard it from multiple D3-D4 students. Can a UMD D3 or D4 student support this claim?

 

[mBjKmr]

the multiple students i spoke with at Maryland, were all very pleased with the school as well as the students. a family friend recently graduated from Maryland, and she was very fond of the school as well.

 

[supermax]

Hmm... can anyone confirm these points that supermax made? The budget cuts and loss of 13 full-time faculty are definitely disconcerting, although the other points I could see occurring at most other dental schools with similar class sizes as Maryland. Also, I'm not sure how you could know about the "red tape in getting procedures done" or "tough perio dpt" if you're a D2, unless Maryland puts students in the clinic early or you heard it from multiple D3-D4 students. Can a UMD D3 or D4 student support this claim?

Red tape stuff is true because I heard that from D3 and D4 students. Student to Faculty ratio is concerning because we have a big class and when we include the DDS/PhD students then the clinical years are huge problem.

 

[supermax]

In addition, they recently changed a P/F course into a grading course because students hate going to class. This course just changed because of D3 students not going to the class. Why the D2 students have to face this? This one credit course has one exam worth your entire grade with 12 lectures to study from.

 

[devildentist]

moderators, could I have this thread moved to the "pre-dental" tier of this forum? The tier directly above the current one.

 

[totomc]

Being another D2 student at Maryland, I completely disagree. The school is responsive to student concerns and is working on addressing the issue of how to get both juniors and seniors to a level of clinical excellence most effectively. I feel completely confident about my skills entering third year and we still have a whole semester left of second year. I had options on where to go and I couldn't be happier with my decision. Sounds like the person complaining is looking for a dental school that cuts corners - then maybe you're right, you shouldn't have come to Maryland supermax. What you don't know that is that students applying to grad programs repeatedly get into their top 3 choices, because Maryland has a reputation of clinical excellence well-known throughout the country. Sounds like you haven't talked to those people applying. The admissions committee works so hard to invite a class that meshes well together and that's my favorite part about this school. There are always a few exceptions but I would say wholeheartedly that my colleagues are REAL people, excelling in skills and classes but without compromising their social aptitude. Message me if you have more questions. I have to caution - when deciding where to go, there will always be people trying to change your mind. Just try to get as much information as possible and get set up for another visit if you're close. In the end, you'll be able to tell by what feels right to you and not some person with a personal vengence not representing us all. Good luck!

 

[totomc]

Oh and to address the recorded lectures - it's the best of both worlds. I can go to class if I want or watch it on 2x to get a quick recap. You do what works and they make it easy to personalize the education to best suit you. There are still plenty of opportunities to hang out with students in all the labs. Believe me, you'll still be at the school PLENTY even if you don't attend every lecture, haha.

 

[swifty]

Reading some of the previous comments about University of Maryland, I have to disagree. I am currently a second year, and I initially chose this school BECAUSE i had heard it had a reputation of attracting non-competitive students. And I immediately found this to be the case. Even before the first few exams here, my inbox was flooded with more charts and study guides form my peers than I knew what to do with. And still, before every test this year, I almost always receive an old test or two handed down from upperclassmen. I have met some truly amazing individuals here and forged friendships I fully intend to keep for years to come and I have never once regretted my decision.

In regards to other aspects of Maryland,
- I have lived in a couple other cities, and Baltimore is honestly not my favorite. There ARE a lot of art museums and restaurants and things if you know where to look and its a relatively cheap place to live, but the public transportation is lacking a little. However, I have never had trouble finding someone to bum a ride off of to get anywhere I need to go.
- The equipment and technology here is OUTSTANDING! This school seems to put a large emphasis on innovation so I feel very lucky to have access to our sim lab.
- I really appreciate the fact that all the lectures are recorded on video. Sometimes when school gets kind of crazy, its great to be able to watch the classes on your own time. This also helped me as an out-of-stater extend some of my short breaks by a few days around Easter to spend a little more time with my family and friends up north.

I actually visited both Maryland and Penn during my dental school interviews, so I would be happy to answer any questions anyone has! (obviously I will be a lot more helpful on Maryland information). Feel free to message me 🙂

 

[Shake N Bake]

To Devildentist: A classmate made this video, you will to learn everything about the school:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc7acAWlSZA

Cons:

1. classes are too full
2. budget cuts, school lost 13 professors and not replacing them all last year
3. not enough clinic chairs
4. students are too competitive and cut throat (there isn't a great sense of community)
5. hard to find patients and retain patients for specific treatments and requirements
6. too much focus (in my opinion) on research and didatic studies versus clinic
7. too much extra bull**** work, like papers
8. not enough focus on clinical, too much red tape to get through just to get procedures done
9. tough perio department

I am a D2 student at Maryland. Its shiny outside but heartless inside.

WOW!! Sorry you pre-dents had to try and sort out the message from "supermax" who obviously got burned somehow or another.

Listen, I too am a D2 also, and was also attracted to MD because of the un-competitive nature of the student body. I found it to be no different once I started and got to really know all my classmates. Mostly everyone in the class truely does help each other out. A lot of upperclassmen become good friends too and are key in providing us with tips for the transition from year to year.

The school is in no way research based (I would have never came here.) But as is the case with any school, they try to provide a well-rounded education and merely expose us to articles and teach you how to read papers (should you choose to do so in your future careers). You do get some clinic experience as a first year on each other and as a 2nd year you will see your first perio patient with the help of a senior (it's really no biggie).

I was fortunate enough to be accepted at 6 of 7 schools I interviewed at and had the CHOICE to attend Maryland as an out of state student. So far, I've never regretted the decision. By the way, I have no intentions of specializing myself, but I still try to put forth my best effort (it's hard, after all, to shake the very competitive nature that got us all into dental school, after all). Good luck with your decision.

 

[supermax]

WOW!! Sorry you pre-dents had to try and sort out the message from "supermax" who obviously got burned somehow or another.

Listen, I too am a D2 also, and was also attracted to MD because of the un-competitive nature of the student body. I found it to be no different once I started and got to really know all my classmates. Mostly everyone in the class truely does help each other out. A lot of upperclassmen become good friends too and are key in providing us with tips for the transition from year to year.

The school is in no way research based (I would have never came here.) But as is the case with any school, they try to provide a well-rounded education and merely expose us to articles and teach you how to read papers (should you choose to do so in your future careers). You do get some clinic experience as a first year on each other and as a 2nd year you will see your first perio patient with the help of a senior (it's really no biggie).

I was fortunate enough to be accepted at 6 of 7 schools I interviewed at and had the CHOICE to attend Maryland as an out of state student. So far, I've never regretted the decision. By the way, I have no intentions of specializing myself, but I still try to put forth my best effort (it's hard, after all, to shake the very competitive nature that got us all into dental school, after all). Good luck with your decision.

You must not have enough knowledge about the kind of research going at Maryland. Maryland stressed a lot about research and especially evidence based learning. Maryland is the third largest dental research institution funded by NIH. Get your facts right.

 

[bromill]

After talking to all the students at Maryland dental that I know, I have found that everyone completely disagrees with supermax. And after doing a little research on this "supermax" character it seems that he got a 2.9 science GPA...no wonder dental school is kicking his butt.

 

[supermax]

Hello I have graduated with 3.8 thesis Masters degree and my undergrad was 3.3. Overall sGPA was 3.4 with 21 on DAT. I haven't earned anything below a B in dental school yet.

 

[CMistry]

I'm a D4 at Maryland, so I'm hoping to give everyone a little better perspective on the issues at hand.

Maryland is an excellent school to train at. The reason I came here was because both the didactic and clinical educations are strong (a rare combination). The first two years are difficult for most students due to the volume of work, an issue that nearly all dental students everywhere are familiar with. I know supermax is in a difficult stretch right now (fall of D2 year is probably our hardest semester), so maybe he's just a little frustrated. Regardless, here's my outlook on a few points:

1. classes are too full.

The class size is in the middle of the pack as far as dental schools go. I have always had enough personal interaction with my professors - if you ever need to speak with one of them they are more than happy to have visitors during office hours. Many of them know me well and have been very helpful through my years here. I'm not sure what you mean by "too full" but I've never had the feeling that there were too many people in my class - also, I think it's great to have people with so many different backgrounds around me.

2. budget cuts, school lost 13 professors and not replacing them all last year.

Honestly I don't know anything about "budget cuts" to make an educated comment, but we have lost a few professors recently and the school is definitely replacing them. I have been in clinic for a while now, and I know this much better than a pre-clinical students. As a few of our professors have parted ways, new ones have come aboard.

3. not enough clinic chairs.

Those who have been in clinic will tell you that there are empty chairs on both floors nearly every session. Sometimes there are not enough faculty to cover all the chairs, if that is what you are referring to. That problem is constantly improving as more and more faculty join our school. Don't forget that a large portion of our clinical students (40%?) are on rotation within the school at any given time, so really there are more than enough chairs.

4. students are too competitive and cut throat (there isn't a great sense of community).

Are we at the same school? University of Maryland, right? I can't tell you how many emails I have from classmates with notes, released exams, boards study material etc. Probably several hundred over the years. I get study guides that were made by my classmates for almost every exam. Honestly I get so many that I don't even make my own, so I don't really even contribute! Of course there are some super competitive students who attract attention, but on the whole our class looks out for itself. I assure you there is NO school of any sort where everyone is non-competitive.

5. hard to find patients and retain patients for specific treatments and requirements.

Yes this is true and it is a problem with every dental school. I am sure because I have met students from just about every school across the country and we all gripe about the same things. If you don't have to struggle to finish some of your requirements, you probably aren't doing enough. They don't want to make the school so that everyone is finishing in December and hanging around for six months doing nothing.

6. too much focus (in my opinion) on research and didactic studies versus clinic

I respect your opinion. I would say it's a perfect balance of the two but everyone is different.

7. too much extra bull**** work, like papers.

This is part of becoming a professional my friend! I don't want to mislead everyone - research papers are very infrequent, but some classes want typed answer to questions etc. When I was in second year I didn't appreciate writing so much, but now that I do research and presentations I am very glad that I was able to keep my skills up by doing these projects. They were definitely not worth me complaining over , but like I've said before everyone is different and for some people writing is very difficult.

8. not enough focus on clinical, too much red tape to get through just to get procedures done.

Please see the answer to #5. What you are saying is true, but this is a "necessary evil". We all want to act like dentists in clinic, but the reality is we are still students! The complex system of checks and balances is very frustrating but is necessary to ensure proper patient care. Don't forget that for anything healthcare, patient care = #1 priority. Dental school included.

9. tough perio department.

Our perio department, from my limited understanding, is one of the best in the country. That being said, students from all other schools have the same difficulties with their perio dept. that we do. Their specialty is known for being meticulous, both in clinic and didactically. But I can tell you that it does pay off, especially when taking boards! Thanks to what I had learned through perio I was very comfortable with those sections.

I am a D2 student at Maryland. Its shiny outside but heartless inside.

I am a D4 student at Maryland, and I can confidently say that I have enjoyed my time here (although I'm really hoping to not stay any longer than I have to! ). Dental school is a tough 4 years, period. Maryland has been the perfect environment for me to thrive, and I am very proud to be a student here. Of course not everyone feels the same way, and they are entitled to their opinion. I just wanted you folks to hear the other side (again). 😀

 

[JustwantDDS]

stoppppp choosing MD leave space for me. argh
YES this is a selfish comment
😛
idk you have two great schools at hand, go where ur friends/ niche/ comfort zone is...ie PENN =)

 

[Silencio]

Supermax sounds a bit over the top so I wonder if he's a waitlisted applicant lol?

I would choose Maryland. Both cities are close to D.C. and NYC. But Baltimore's Fels Point is more fun than Philly's South Street IMO. Same weather in both. Blue crabs vs. cheese steaks. At least you have less chance to get mugged lol in Baltimore. I work at a clinic and met both Penn and Maryland dental students doing externships. I tried to pick their brains and it seemed like Maryland one seemed happier than the Penn one. Penn one was concerned about her clinical training and was planning to do a GPR. A lot more gunners at Penn which would concern me if I was going to specialize. I wouldn't worry about specialization rates because Ivy schools have higher quality students and these types tend to get into post-grad programs. I think if you can succeed in dental school academically, with environment (facilities, curriculum, gunner-normal student ratio, etc.) having a lot to do with it, then you can certainly specialize. Just go with the environment that best fits you.