URGENT! UMN-Twin Cities vs Jefferson. Please Help!

[effectedtag]

Hello all, I was fortunate enough to be accepted off the waitlist at my top 2 choices now I am having trouble deciding. I would like the school that will allow me the best opportunity to match a competitive specialty since I am relatively undecided.

Jefferson

pros:

1. systems-based curriculum
2. Students seem really happy
3. very good match list in ophtho and ortho ~11% class each year

Cons:

1. More expensive
2. P/F preclinical but internal rankings
3. further from home. 11-hour drive.

Minnesota Twin Cities

Pros:

1. True P/F no rankings
2. P/F clinical years too and talks about moving away from AOA (maybe bad with step 1 p/f)
3. Cheaper cost of living. Could get a way nicer place to live
4. closer to home. 6 hour drive.
5. probably a little cheaper (still waiting on financial aid)

Cons:

1. Primary care focused. The Match list seems primary care focused but PD rankings are 31 so I doubt UMN is holding anyone back. Probably just self-selection.
2. The first-year traditional curriculum then systems-based 2nd year.

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[parquetshorts]

Honestly, probably a wash. Both are great schools that are well regarded by PD's as far as I know. Jefferson's match lists have been really impressive over the last few years, but I don't think you'd be held back at all by going to UMN; they've got great home residencies in a lot of programs. At this point, I'd either go with whatever option is more affordable, or which city you'd prefer to live in. Minneapolis is probably a little more affordable than Philly, but Philly has more of a big-city vibe if that's what you're looking for. Minneapolis weather can also be a little brutal for some, but the summer's there are pristine.

 

[effectedtag]

Honestly, probably a wash. Both are great schools that are well regarded by PD's as far as I know. Jefferson's match lists have been really impressive over the last few years, but I don't think you'd be held back at all by going to UMN; they've got great home residencies in a lot of programs. At this point, I'd either go with whatever option is more affordable, or which city you'd prefer to live in. Minneapolis is probably a little more affordable than Philly, but Philly has more of a big-city vibe if that's what you're looking for. Minneapolis weather can also be a little brutal for some, but the summer's there are pristine.

That is what makes the decision so hard since I really loved both schools. I am not sure what cost difference would be worth one over the other.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

I think if you want ortho or optho Jefferson may be better. If not UNM

 

[effectedtag]

I think if you want ortho or optho Jefferson may be better. If not UNM

I wish I knew lol. I think that would make the decision easier.

 

[parquetshorts]

I wish I knew lol. I think that would make the decision easier.

I know that Jefferson is very strong with ophtho and ortho, but from what I recall UMN has a strong ortho residency and I don't think going there would hold you back at all from pursuing ortho. However, I have heard that ophtho is particularly strong at Jefferson, so if that's a specialty you're considering at all then I'd weigh that more heavily into your choice. Especially with how competitive ophtho is and the importance of finding a mentor, the fact that Jefferson has so many ophtho matches is pretty wild. If you have the time and money, it may be worth doing another visit at both schools to get a better feel of what going there would be like. Might also be helpful to find some current students pursuing similar specialties; I'm sure they could provide some helpful insight!

 

[effectedtag]

I know that Jefferson is very strong with ophtho and ortho, but from what I recall UMN has a strong ortho residency and I don't think going there would hold you back at all from pursuing ortho. However, I have heard that ophtho is particularly strong at Jefferson, so if that's a specialty you're considering at all then I'd weigh that more heavily into your choice. Especially with how competitive ophtho is and the importance of finding a mentor, the fact that Jefferson has so many ophtho matches is pretty wild. If you have the time and money, it may be worth doing another visit at both schools to get a better feel of what going there would be like. Might also be helpful to find some current students pursuing similar specialties; I'm sure they could provide some helpful insight!

I visited Jeff very recently. I am going to UMN this week so maybe that will help. I agree I have never seen 15 people matching ophtho. Clearly, it does offer an advantage. UMN match lists are very primary care heavy but maybe it is self-selection?

 

[parquetshorts]

I visited Jeff very recently. I am going to UMN this week so maybe that will help. I agree I have never seen 15 people matching ophtho. Clearly, it does offer an advantage. UMN match lists are very primary care heavy but maybe it is self-selection?

I definitely think there's some self selection going on. You also have to factor in that about half of UMN's match list is coming from their Duluth campus. Those students do their pre-clinical years up North in Duluth, and then come to the Twin-Cities for clinical years. As far as I know, the vast majority of these students pursue primary care specialties and tend to return to rural places to practice, so I think that skews the match numbers a little bit. Additionally, the hospitals around the Twin-Cities metro offer some really fantastic FM residencies, so I think having so many good options in the school's own backyard might sway students to pursue FM. However, I know of a few current students who are pursuing competitive specialties at UMN, and it seems like they have plenty of faculty support and research opportunities to do so!

 

[effectedtag]

I definitely think there's some self selection going on. You also have to factor in that about half of UMN's match list is coming from their Duluth campus. Those students do their pre-clinical years up North in Duluth, and then come to the Twin-Cities for clinical years. As far as I know, the vast majority of these students pursue primary care specialties and tend to return to rural places to practice, so I think that skews the match numbers a little bit. Additionally, the hospitals around the Twin-Cities metro offer some really fantastic FM residencies, so I think having so many good options in the school's own backyard might sway students to pursue FM. However, I know of a few current students who are pursuing competitive specialties at UMN, and it seems like they have plenty of faculty support and research opportunities to do so!

Thank you for your input. This decision is such a tough one.

 

[effectedtag]

I got the financial aid packages from both schools. Jeff will only be like 1.6K a year more expensive so I will probably attend Jeff! The students seem very happen and I have had great encounters with faculty.

 

[Mndocco]

I was deciding between these two schools earlier this year - I was partial to Jefferson because of their stronger match rates. Some of this is due to the difference in the way they do their p/f systems, which to me was a pro rather than a con at Jeff. I think you've probably seen this message from the Jefferson thread earlier this year referring to the p/f with internal rankings at Jeff:

This^^^^. My research confirms that this is an unfortunate fact of life for people at schools outside the T20 or so that have aspirations to go into competitive specialties or to top residencies.

People at top med schools have the luxury of not subjecting themselves to ranking, because they have already passed a screen respected by PDs by being accepted by a top school. As we all know, there are plenty of top people who, for one reason or another, do not attend top schools, just like in UG. If UG was all P/F, it would probably be really difficult for top students at unranked UGs to distinguish themselves and get into top med schools.

Same thing here. Schools outside the T20 that do not rank make their students feel better, and undoubtedly alleviate some stress, at least until Match Day. Invariably, it's the schools that rank, grade, or both that tend to punch above their weight in the Match.

As with everything else, this does not mean you cannot go to an unranked school that is pure P/F and not match plastics. YMMV, but it is definitely something to consider if you have choices, depending on whether it's more important for you to minimize stress or to maximize your ability to match something competitive. If you don't have more than one choice, then it really doesn't matter.

 

[effectedtag]

I was deciding between these two schools earlier this year - I was partial to Jefferson because of their stronger match rates. Some of this is due to the difference in the way they do their p/f systems, which to me was a pro rather than a con at Jeff. I think you've probably seen this message from the Jefferson thread earlier this year referring to the p/f with internal rankings at Jeff:

so you chose Jefferson? The reason I ask is because I am second guessing since Minnesota is true p/f all 4 years. I feel like that would relieve so much stress.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Probably depends where you think you’d be able to finish in the class

Top quartile at Jeff > minnesota + second quartile at Jeff > other students at Jeff in terms of options for residency imo

 

[effectedtag]

Probably depends where you think you’d be able to finish in the class

Top quartile at Jeff > minnesota + second quartile at Jeff > other students at Jeff in terms of options for residency imo

I heard from students at the matching panels that students who matched very competitive specialties were not always in the top quartile. Some are even in the bottom quartile. Granted, this was before step 1 p/f so now maybe PDs will care about where you are? Who knows.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

I’m not necessarily trying to sway you one way or another but you want to think in probabilistic terms. I’m sure that some people from the bottom match well, but it’s probably a rarer occurrence than somebody in the top matching well

Also keep in mind that schools generally select the students who talk at these things. If Jeff admissions knows that this is a concern of prospective students, they may encourage matching panel students to say things like this.

Either way, matching into something competitive is hard work for all students so it may not be much of a difference in terms of workload at each school.

What are your thoughts on Philly vs Minneapolis?

 

[effectedtag]

I’m not necessarily trying to sway you one way or another but you want to think in probabilistic terms. I’m sure that some people from the bottom match well, but it’s probably a rarer occurrence than somebody in the top matching well

Also keep in mind that schools generally select the students who talk at these things. If Jeff admissions knows that this is a concern of prospective students, they may encourage matching panel students to say things like this.

Either way, matching into something competitive is hard work for all students so it may not be much of a difference in terms of workload at each school.

What are your thoughts on Philly vs Minneapolis?

I am from Chicago so used to the city environment but I also wouldn't mind having a "chiller" environment and a relatively modern place to live in Minneapolis compared to what I could probably afford in Philly. At the end of the day though, I want the most opportunity as I am generally interested in competitive specalties.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Either is a good option and would have enough resources for you to do something competitive if you put in the work.

Personally, I would choose Minnesota. Partly because, as you mentioned, it would be much easier to live comfortably as a med student (downtown, no roommate etc.). Also, worrying about which quartile you fall into wouldn’t be too fun, but it is a way to stand out.

Don’t put too much stock into rankings but UMN has a higher PD ranking

 

[parquetshorts]

I genuinely don't think that either school will limit you as far as competitive specialties. If you wanted to match into derm, ortho, ophtho, etc., you could certainly do so from either. Minnesota has a big enough name that I don't think that P/F through pre-clinicals and clinical years will inhibit you from standing out. UMN may not be T20, but it's close enough to T20 that I don't think KnightDoc's scenario applies as cleanly. Granted, Minnesota may match a little more regionally than Jeff does given that it's a large public institution, and its reputation tends to shine a little more in the midwest. I think at the end of the day, your work ethic and access to resources like research and mentorships will be what helps you set yourself apart. The only downside to Jeff that I can think of is with how many people are matching ortho and ophtho from their program, it might be a little competitive between classmates to secure research or mentorships. That's complete speculation though.

At the end of the day, I'd go with the campus/culture that you feel most comfortable at! Whichever place you can see yourself being the happiest at will be the correct choice.

 

[effectedtag]

I really appreciate all your insight from you all! I am going to visit UMN early this week. I hope it will help.

 

[Mndocco]

so you chose Jefferson? The reason I ask is because I am second guessing since Minnesota is true p/f all 4 years. I feel like that would relieve so much stress.

I was planning on going to Jeff until I got off the waitlist at my in state school two weeks ago. A variety of other personal preferences factored into choosing Jeff over MN though. Both great schools, happy to talk more about personal preferences in DMs if you're still curious!

 

[effectedtag]

I keep going back and forth lol. I love how the votes are 9 to 9 too lmao

 

[TuckGamePerfect]

Having true pass-fail in both preclinical and clinical is insane; I heard P/F during clinical years is a particular game-changer. I would have definitely applied to UMN-Twin Cities if I knew that was their curriculum lol

 

[effectedtag]

I keep going back and forth lol. I love how the votes are 9 to 9 too lmao

Edit: I did prefer Philadelphia to Minneapolis and feel like I would be happier living in Philly if that matters.

 

[parquetshorts]

Edit: I did prefer Philadelphia to Minneapolis and feel like I would be happier living in Philly if that matters.

With the two schools being close in prestige and cost, I'd say that this should be one of the most important factors to weigh. Go where you can see yourself being the happiest! Medical school can be incredibly stressful and isolating at times, and it's so beneficial to live in a place where you feel comfortable, and can find other interesting things to take your mind away from the grind. If Philly is that city for you, then I think you should send it and not look back! Congratulations effectedtag!

 

[Putkernerinthehall]

After reading this thread, if you are pretty set on competitive specialties and you like Philly over Minneapolis/SP, Jeffs is probably better choice for you. Either one is great, no bad choice.

Personally I like the late May - Oct (early Oct!) weather in Minnesota better and so might lean toward UMN. Minneapolis is so well set-up and efficient in terms of handling the winter snow, I don't think the winter is that much more of a negative than Philly. At some point butt-cold is butt-cold!

My dollar might buy a little more in terms of quality housing in Minneapolis too. And Jeffs class is so huge, it seems UMN might be more manageable. Just spitballing here. Congrats to you!

 

[Arsartium]

@effectedtag are you sure clinicals are P/F at UMN? Just looking at their catalog some of 3rd year clerkships are p/f but all 4th years clerkships (e.g subinternships, electives). are graded H/HP/P/F. Perhaps the site isn't updated though.

With regard to grades, regardless of whether an institution has explicit ranking/grading or not, it will be no secret to faculty (and your classmates) who is highest-performing. Moreover, this will be reflected in your clerkships comments and letters of recommendation.

Either way, congrats on your success this cycle! You'll likely be happy with either institution. Half-serious, half-flippantly, I'd recommend you flip a coin. You'll feel much better once you've committed.

 

[effectedtag]

@effectedtag are you sure clinicals are P/F at UMN? Just looking at their catalog some of 3rd year clerkships are p/f but all 4th years clerkships (e.g subinternships, electives). are graded H/HP/P/F. Perhaps the site isn't updated though.

With regard to grades, regardless of whether an institution has explicit ranking/grading or not, it will be no secret to faculty (and your classmates) who is highest-performing. Moreover, this will be reflected in your clerkships comments and letters of recommendation.

Either way, congrats on your success this cycle! You'll likely be happy with either institution. Half-serious, half-flippantly, I'd recommend you flip a coin. You'll feel much better once you've committed.

It is for sure the core clerkships that are P/F. I thought the majority of them but maybe not

 

[effectedtag]

Honestly, I feel like the only thing keeping me coming to UMN is the grading and I do not think that justifies the other things I would be happier with at Jeff, including living in a city, connections with Rothman, Wills etc. I think I am going to choose Jeff and commit.

 

[effectedtag]

I committed to enroll at Jeff