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URM Filipino

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - MD' started by Noodles4days, Sep 6, 2014.

  1. Noodles4days

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    Hello SDN,
    Any Filipinos ever put down URM? I know my great grandfather had some spanish blood in it based off of his last name. I kind of look hispanic too.
    So any filipino applicants ever put down URM?
     
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  3. godawg300

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    That sounds a little dishonest but if you feel like you are Hispanic, why not. It's how you self identify.
     
  4. LizzyM

    LizzyM the evil queen of numbers
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    Hispanics can be of any race. If you speak Spanish, that will be a plus. Whether a school will consider you "under-represented in medicine" (URM) is up to each school.
    https://www.aamc.org/initiatives/urm/
     
  5. gyngyn

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    Filipino Americans are under-represented in colleges and universities. The disproportionate number of physicians who have immigrated from the Philippines makes them quite over-represented in medicine, however.

    The last time the CA Medical Board did an analysis of IMG's in practice in CA, The Philippines was second only to India as an exporter of physicians to the golden state..
     
    #4 gyngyn, Sep 6, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2014
  6. Noodles4days

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    Anyone else have thoughts on this ?
     
  7. LizzyM

    LizzyM the evil queen of numbers
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    Did you self identify as Hispanic in the 2010 census, @Noodles4days ?
     
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  8. gyngyn

    gyngyn Professor
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    Hispanics, like Asians are a heterogeneous group. Some are UIM, others are not.
     
    #7 gyngyn, Sep 6, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2014
  9. chickenchaser

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    I remember when filling out AMCAS, in regard to being Hispanic it asks if you self identify as "Hispanic, Latino, or of Spanish Origin." Then gives a list of options to specify. I can only remember specifically- Mexican/Chicano, Puerto Rican, Cuban or Other as options, but I'm positive there were a few more. It's all about how you self identify, if I asked "What is your ethnic/cultural identity" in casual conversation, how would you answer? If you said "Hispanic" maybe the "other" option is appropriate for you. But there is no spot to "put down" URM, you just answer the question regarding your identity as best you can, then let each school decide. At least that's how I understand it.
     
  10. bumpbumped

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    Most Filipinos have Spanish blood because of the colonization. All of the Filipinos I know (including myself) have Hispanic last names. I personally believe it is disingenuous to put down that you are Hispanic because your great-grandfather is because his last name is Hispanic. Do you identify with the culture? Of course, it's heterogeneous, but I myself am not Hispanic in any way except due to historical consequence.

    That said, I did not put down URM. And, they're not underrepresented in the medical profession, which is the definition AAMC uses to describe URM for medical applications.
     
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  11. darklabel

    darklabel PGWhy
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    Just marking "Hispanic Origin" doesn't give you much benefit, unless you're Mexican or Puerto Rican. As gyngyn said, for college most hispanic groups are underrepresented, but not for when it comes to medicine because a lot of doctors immigrated from their home country to practice medicine here.
     
  12. coolio24567

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    A lot of Americans who don't get into US medical schools have gone to Philippine medical schools. Many are not of Filipino descent. There's over 30 medical schools in the Philippines and their tuition is very low (<$10,000/year). The same analysis shows Dominica and Grenada as major exporters to US schools, both tiny island nations with populations of <100,000 people. Do you really think tiny island nations are exporting a HUGE percentage of their natives as doctors to the United States? No, the common factor is that they have medical schools that US students go to.

    Filipinos are the largest Asian-American group in California and make up 25.6% of California's Asian-American population with 1.474 million Filipino Americans out of California's 5.556 million Asian-Americans (if you don't trust Wikipedia, follow the citations). A UCSF study (Figure 3 on pg. 10) showed for the ETHNICITIES (not country where they attended medical school) of California doctors, Filipino was barely the third-highest represented Asian-American minority. That Filipino bar is far from a quarter of the cumulative sum of all the bars.

    The disparity for US-trained Filipino-American doctors is even greater. Filipino-Americans are the second-largest Asian-American group in the United States with 3.41 million out of 17.32 million Asian-Americans, or 19.7%. However, Filipino-Americans only make up 4.8% of Asian-American Medical school applicants (Figure 7, page 22). This leads to a displacement of Filipino-American medical students at schools that don't recognize them as URM, and clump them in with the rest of "Asians", by other ORM (Chinese, Indians), and a vast under-representation of Filipinos in American medical schools.

    Fortunately, some medical schools like UC Irvine and University of Utah don't clump Filipinos with the rest of Asians and recognize them as URM. For the rest of the schools that don't, Filipinos are displaced by other Asians and only get 1 or 2 admits per school, whereas there's often 10-20 Indian/Chinese admits per school (just look at the MSAR), when Filipinos are the second largest Asian-American group in the United States.

    If U.S. medical school populations are supposed to represent the general population of the United States, they're doing a very poor job for Filipino-Americans.
     
    #11 coolio24567, Dec 20, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2014
  13. Feelgood Inc

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    I'm new to SDN but this represents one of the bigger flaws of AA. Some Asian-based ethnicities are clearly underrepresented (Hmong, Laotian, Cambodian), even more so than African Americans and Hispanics. Unfortunately whether they are classified as URM or ORM for still being Asian American is a case by case situation per school.

    To the OP I would put some thought into it, even if people consider it unethical. In the end it's how you identify yourself and let's be honest, from what I've gathered from this community, some of the people reading this topic and condemning you would identify as Hispanic (not that it makes it any better)

    Edit: just noticed this topic is like 3 months old...

     
  14. karayaa

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    The med school population is not supposed to represent the general population, because we're talking about URMedicine, not under represented in medical school applicants, or under represented in medical school students, because the point is to have diversity within the medical profession, not within in-country pipeline to that profession.
    IMGs that come into the country to practice alleviate the need for AA in med school admissions, because the end result (diversity) is achieved.


    Do you really think tiny island nations are exporting a HUGE percentage of their natives as doctors to the United States?
    No one said this. Gyngyn said that Filipinos are a large percentage of IMGs in the US - not that most of the doctors who leave the PI come to the US. Please re-read her post below.
     
  15. AlbinoHawk DO

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    You're not hispanic and you won't fool anyone. Besides, the golden ticket hispanics are from mexico and puerto rico. the rest get at best marginal recognition.
     
  16. coolio24567

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    "The Philippines was second only to India as an exporter of physicians to the golden state."
    He's saying that the Philippines is exporting students from their medical schools to CA (in the US). I was saying that just because they went to a Philippine medical school doesn't mean they're Filipino. A lot of Americans (who aren't Filipino) go to the Philippines for medical school, and then come back to the US, and they are included in that export from the Philippines figure.
    Also, I was referring to Grenada and Dominica as the tiny island nations.

    Just because they're coming from medical schools in the Philippines doesn't mean they're Filipino. The figure in the UCSF study shows that Filipinos by ethnicity (not by where they went to medical school) are nowhere near 25.6%, the percentage Asian-Americans who are Filipino in California.

    White kids going to the Philippines for med school and coming back to the US are included in that Philippines export figure. They are not Filipino.



     
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  17. coolio24567

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    I am Filipino, look hispanic, and have a Hispanic last name. People think I'm Hispanic all the time. Do you even know the history of the Philippines?

     
  18. AlbinoHawk DO

    AlbinoHawk DO PeeGeeWai Osteopath
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    You probably don't look hispanic to us. I've heard a ton of you make this claim and we (real hispanics) know that you don't. Having a Hispanic last name is meaningless. They ask on the application Hispanic from where. Maybe you will lie and also say it's from Mexico? "Hispanic-Filipino" is not going to fly.
     
  19. coolio24567

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    "we (real hispanics) know that you don't"

    You know nothing about me. I live in a city with a high percentage of Hispanics and tons of people (including Hispanics) think that I'm Hispanic. That's a very biased statement. The Philippines was a Spanish colony and had a lot of Spanish DNA injected into its population, as did Mexicans and South Americans. Filipinos are a very mixed population and some look more Asian and some look more Spanish. I'm trying to say that Filipinos are indeed Hispanic, regardless of what the options are on AMCAS.

     
  20. karayaa

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    fixed that for ya ;)
     
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  21. gyngyn

    gyngyn Professor
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    The UCSF study in collaboration with the CA Medical Board asked for the ethnicity of practicing physicians, then identified where they attended medical school (see Table 3). About 3% of practicing docs described themselves as Filipino. My point remains that most of them trained in their home country. Since about 3% of California's population is Filipino, they are viewed to be at parity in our state. In contrast, Cambodians, Hmong and Samoans are dramatically under-represented and do receive special consideration at CA medical schools.
    http://www.futurehealth.ucsf.edu/Content/29/2008-03_MD_Diversity_in_CA_New_Findings_from_the_CA_Med_Board_Survey.pdf
     
    #20 gyngyn, Dec 20, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2014
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  22. AlbinoHawk DO

    AlbinoHawk DO PeeGeeWai Osteopath
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    No, you guys are not. It's as simple as that. You want to claim it on a form, go ahead. It doesn't make it true.
     
  23. coolio24567

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  24. coolio24567

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    I think the high number of Filipino IMG doctors is a relic of the past because only 71 Filipino IMG's matched last year. http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP-ECFMG-Charting-Outcomes-in-the-Match-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf


    Accepting 195 Filipino Americans to US MD schools out of ~20,000 new medical students in 2014 (per the MSAR) and having 71 new Filipino residents in 2014 is clearly not sustainable for the second largest Asian-American minority in the United States with 3.4 million people. That's 266 potential new Filipino-American doctors in one year.

    Also, I HIGHLY doubt that the ~2600 Filipino IMG physicians in CA alone came from an import rate of ~71/year to the ENTIRE United States. 1043 Indians matched in 2014 and there are slightly more than twice as many Indian IMG physicians in CA as Filipino ones. It sounds like some sort of loophole was closed in the past, where people who weren't ethnically Filipino were claiming it anyways.

     
    #23 coolio24567, Dec 20, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2014
  25. Lucca

    Lucca Will Walk Rope for Sandwich
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  26. coolio24567

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    You can't. Filipinos aren't listed under "Hispanic" on AMCAS. This is wrong and needs to be fixed.
     
  27. gyngyn

    gyngyn Professor
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    I agree that it is sad that current Pinoy applicants are not given special consideration for medicine. Many of them are recruited based on economic factors, though. The fact that a disproportionate number of MD's from the Philippines are practicing means that parity for medicine is likely to remain for decades, however. If the number of homegrown applicants/matriculants remains low compared to the population (and if a more modest influx of MD's from the Philippines persists) we would reasonably need to remain vigilant regarding the persistence of parity.

    If, however, these "imported" physicians are serving this community, the policy of not identifying Filipino-Americans as under-represented in medicine is justifiable under current policies. The main reason for identifying UIM groups is to provide service to that community, not for the individual student/physician.
     
    #26 gyngyn, Dec 20, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2014
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  28. Lucca

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    Hispanic: "of or relating to Spain or to Spanish-speaking countries, especially those of Latin America."

    If you feel you belong to this category hit hispanic, hit other and then type "Filipino".
     
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  29. coolio24567

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    I've personally never met a Filipino physician in my 20+ years of living. I'd say that in itself is evidence of a problem.


     
  30. gyngyn

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    I know a bunch!
    I'm in this business, though....
    And more than twice your age.

    Your observation serves to re-enforce the concept that diversity is important for role model formation, though.
     
  31. AlteredScale

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    I remember asking this thread question two years ago and you answering it exactly the same way GynGyn.

    FWIW I was never asked about my Filipino background through the application cycle and did not discuss it through my PS. I did however address it in a few of my secondary essays but not in a way to state that "there's a dire need for Filipino physicians".
     
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  32. Dr Van Helsing

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    Why don't you go to a school in the Philippines?
     
  33. coolio24567

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    uhh because its harder to match as an IMG... duh?
     
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  34. Dr Van Helsing

    Dr Van Helsing I'm already skeptical.
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    You think your situation is confusing? I am 50% Sicilian (Dad- black hair, hairy, thick boned, dark olive skin, brown eyes) and 50% German (Mom- White as a sheet, ice blue eyes, blonde hair). Basically, I don't know wtf I am, race-wise. During the summer--especially with facial hair--I look Mexican. However, during the winter I look white. I always choose 'white' on the census because that is the culture I was raised under.
     
  35. Yorick

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    Ok, but you don't have any actual mexican blood in you lol. Your situation isn't confusing at all unless you're delusional.

    Are you not able to check multiple groups on AMCAS? I'm filipino as well, my grandpa is full spanish and I have family in spain and would probably mark 'hispanic' and filipino however it works on AMCAS. I don't see the big deal here.
     
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  36. Dr Van Helsing

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    I was born in Mexico; Spanish was my first language.
     
  37. Yorick

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    Would've been smart to include that; you made it sound like you only sometimes look mexican hence the confusion.
     
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  38. Dr Van Helsing

    Dr Van Helsing I'm already skeptical.
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    You are right. That was an important bit of information Yorick. I will choose white, though, case closed.
     
  39. BlueCircle

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    Although Spanish culture didn't spread into the philipines as much as it did in some Latin American countries, there were some regions of the philipines that did. "Hispanicity" is a cultural inheritance, he/she can easily come from a family who has closer ties to the term. Theres no denying that filipinos share some degree of hispanicity. Theres no surprise that Filipinos intermarry with Mexicans at a higher rate than any other Asian group, and that is because there is a shared history. The Philipines were administered from New Spain (Mexico) when it was a Spanish colony. At any rate, OP can choose to identify as Hispanic if that is certainly how he or she identifies.
     
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  40. BlueCircle

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    You can be Mexican of any race just how you can be American of any race. White and Mexican are not two mutually exclusive terms.
     
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  41. coolio24567

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    Just found the data.
    http://aamcdiversityfactsandfigures.org/section-ii-current-status-of-us-physician-workforce/

    There's 5455 Filipino Physicians in the whole U.S. out of a total of 956523 U.S. Physicians. That's .57% when the 3.41 million Filipino-Americans make up 1.078% of the 316.1 million U.S. Population. The number of Filipino Physicians should be almost twice what it is now. There's an obvious displacement of Filipinos by ORM Asian groups. Indian physicians make up 46186/956523 U.S. Physicians, or 4.828% when they make up 3.18 million/316.1 million or 1.006% of the U.S. population. Chinese physicians make up 18476/956523 U.S. Physicians or 1.931% when they make up 3.8 million/316.1 million or 1.202% of the U.S. Population. Korean physicians make up 7817/956523 U.S. Physicians or .817% when they make up 1.7 million/316.1 million or .537% of the U.S. Population. Compare these numbers with the number of medical applicants from each ethnicity. (Figure 7, pg. 22) There's an obvious displacement of Filipinos by Asian ethnicities with more applicants because when they have more applicants, they're gonna have more who are on the right end of the bell curve. Lumping all Asians together leads to an ethnically disproportionate U.S. Physician population with the ethnicities that have the most applicants displacing other ethnicities.

    Filipinos ARE URM in medicine in the United States. They need to be considered separately from other Asians.

     
    #40 coolio24567, Dec 21, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2014
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  42. Doug Underhill

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    I feel like the Hispanic URM designation should really emphasize the language more than the ethnicity. At my clinic, we are constantly in need of fluent speakers who can identify medical issues with Spanish-speaking patients, regardless of whether they are Mexican or Filipino.
     
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  43. sundancing

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    Almost every Filipino person I've met has a Spanish last name and I was under the impression that's a byproduct of Spanish colonization - not that Filipinos are actually considered Hispanic. But if OP's grandfather was actually Hispanic, then he could just make note that he is 1/4 Hispanic and 3/4 Filipino on the application. Schools will do what they choose with that information.

    I have a similar confusion because my family surname is Syrian but I have grown up knowing I'm a mixture of various European descents. I am probably Syrian somewhere way back, but I just identify as white of European descent because that's how I was raised. And I guess Syrians are considered Caucasian anyway so it wouldn't change my census designation.
     
  44. coolio24567

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    The Philippines was a Spanish colony for nearly 400 years. You can bet there was a lot of Spanish culture/DNA injected into the Philippines during that span. They are the only predominantly Catholic nation in Asia, thanks to Spain.

     
  45. Mad Jack

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    According to the AAMC master file on practicing physicians, there are 14,785 IMG Filipino physicians practicing in the United States, making them the second largest group of IMGs practicing in the country. There are roughly 880,000 active physicians in the United States. That makes just the foreign born Filipino physicians 1.67% of the physician workforce, as compared to their being 1.078% of the US population. Even if we only include foreign born Filipinos, they are already ORM in medicine. Less ORM than Indian does not equal URM. And Filipinos are not considered Hispanic. Try and claim you're Hispanic and it will likely bite you in the ass once the interviewer realizes you are Filipino.

    Why do you need to gun so hard for a URM advantage anyway? Is your app not strong enough to make it on its own merits if you check Asian on the form?

    https://www.fsmb.org/Media/Default/PDF/Census/census.pdf
     
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  46. coolio24567

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    That figure represents the number of IMG physicians who GRADUATED from a Filipino medical school, not the number who ARE of Filipino ethnicity. A bunch of non-Filipino Americans have gone to Filipino medical schools in the past and come back to the U.S. There are 956,523 U.S. Physicians according to the AAMC figure 1 (add up the totals in figure 1). The number I gave (5455) from the AAMC, figure 2 is ethnically Filipino and currently practicing physicians in the U.S. both U.S. grads and IMG. 5455/956523 = 0.570% , which is roughly half of the 1.078% Filipino-Americans in the general population.

    And since you made an ad hominem attack at me, it sounds like you need to learn set theory. You know, the thing with venn diagrams.

     
    #45 coolio24567, Dec 21, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2014
  47. Mad Jack

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    "This section provides detailed tables on race, ethnicity, age, sex, professional activity, specialty, and geography of practice area for physicians graduating from U.S. M.D.-granting medical schools. These data primarily are derived from the AAMC’s Minority Physician Database and other AAMC data sources, as well as data from the AMA Physician Masterfile."

    This report excludes the massive population of foreign-born Filipino physicians. The vast majority of Filipino-educated physicians that have come to the United States have been Filipino. I was considering medical school in the Philippines a few years back, and the number of white Americans that get educated in the Philippines is less than you can count on your fingers and toes each year. Most Americans that would go to the Philippines for their MD were second generation Filipinos. You can look up the data on the number of USIMGs that come from from each country yourself- the Philippines just isn't a popular place for non-Filipinos to go to.

    http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP-ECFMG-Charting-Outcomes-in-the-Match-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf

    As to my "attack," it wasn't an attack, I was just trying to see why it was that you needed the URM edge so bad. Usually people that scramble for things like this have poor applications. Then things play out as follow: adcoms offer them an interview because they're a URM, they show up, and are obviously not a URM, then they end up getting rejected. A Filipino claiming to be Hispanic might be correct in the most technical sense of the term, but you're in the same boat as an Egyptian claiming to be African-American.
    [​IMG]
     
    #46 Mad Jack, Dec 21, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2014
  48. coolio24567

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    Source: AAMC Data Warehouse: Minority Physician Database, AMA Masterfile, and other AAMC data sources, as of 1/22/2014.
    The numbers on the graphs add up to a total of 956,000 active U.S. physicians.

    On the AMA Masterfile page: "The Physician Masterfile includes current and historical data for more than 1.4 million physicians, residents, and medical students in the United States. This figure includes approximately 411,000 graduates of foreign medical schools who reside in the United States and who have met the educational and credentialing requirements necessary for recognition."

    If the AAMC Diversity Facts and Figures only included U.S. M.D. trained physicians, that would mean there would be about 1.4 million physicians in the United States (956,000+411,000). There's that many physicians, residents and medical students in the U.S. though.

    IMG physicians are included in that figure. Also, there were only 71 Filipino IMGs who matched last year. That high number of Filipino IMGs is likely a relic of the past when a lot of U.S. students did go to the Phillippines before something stopped that, hence why the current number of American medical students in the Philippines is low.

    "Filipino claiming to be Hispanic might be correct in the most technical sense of the term, but you're in the same boat as an Egyptian claiming to be African-American."
    Wrong. Filipinos are ethnically and culturally Spanish. They were under Spanish rule for nearly 400 years. Egyptians share no culture or DNA with black Africans, they are just on the same continent.

    "I was just trying to see why it was that you needed the URM edge so bad. Usually people that scramble for things like this have poor applications."
    So you were pre-judging my situation based on your personal previous experiences? Ever heard of the words "bias" and "prejudice"?

     
    #47 coolio24567, Dec 21, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2014
  49. Mad Jack

    Mad Jack Critically Caring
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    The diversity facts and figures report clearly states that it only includes US MD trained physicians, as has every diversity facts and figures report the AAMC has ever produced. As to U.S. citizens going to the Philippines for their education, that was never a big thing. There was a huge influx of IMGs from the Philippines from 1970-2000 that led to them being the second largest group of practicing IMGs in the United States. I've read a lot of AMA papers in the past on the IMG workforce and how critical of a role Filipinos played in serving the underserved over the years. It was actually brought up as an ethical issue in many papers, as we drained off so many physicians from the Philippine's health system that it, to this day, is damn near collapse. Now, eventually it is likely that as the Filipino IMG physicians of the past age and retire, Filipinos will become a URM group in regard to medicine, but that has not yet happened, so you aren't URM, get over it.

    If you can find any data proving that there was ever a massive number of US graduates being educated in the Philippines, I'd love to see it. But you won't, because it doesn't exist. The highest anecdotal account I can find puts the total number of US students studying medicine in the PI at 200 for all four years of medical school combined, a number that peaked in the 80s. That's 50 students per year, or damn close to exactly how many are there now. And many of those US students are second gen Filipino to begin with, similar to all the Indian kids that go back to India for medical education when they can't get a spot in the US.
     
  50. coolio24567

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    You still haven't proven that the 14,785 IMG physicians who went to med school in the Philippines were actually Filipino. Where's the data for that? That same report shows 6,518 physicians from Grenada medical schools, and we all know those aren't Grenada natives.

     
  51. Mad Jack

    Mad Jack Critically Caring
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    There was never a large industry of US students being educated in the Philippines. You literally made up a ridiculous fact and are asking me to prove your made up conjecture wrong. The Caribbean has always been the go to place for US students that couldn't get a spot in a US school to be educated, the Philippines was not. You can assume they are Filipino for the same reason you can assume (rightly so) that the vast majority of Indian IMGs are Indian. Filipinos aren't URM, and making up imaginary US grads training in the Philippines to account for the 15,000 practicing physicians that were educated in the Philippines doesn't change that. If even half of those 15,000 physicians were native Filipinos, you would be ORM. But the number is far greater than half.
     

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