URM status

[beefballs]

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Heres some questions to ponder as well....

Does being from a influential "majority" family help you get into med school? YES
Does being just a plain "majority" applicant help you get into med school? YES
Does coming from a family full of doctor's help you get into med school? YES

Cleary if your not disadvantaged, then you are ADVANTAGED. I dont even know why you people are comparing yourselves to URM's. We are two entirely different entities. It wasn't until the mid 60's that we actually gained full "legal" civil rights in this country. When you look at a black person in your med class do realize he was NOT GIVEN that seat...his people had to be TORTURED and KILLED for him to sit there. How many of your people died fighting to have the chance to be equal in America? Be assured that we werent and arent given anything, weve demanded it and taken it ourselves. Give credit where the credit is due and stop actin like we po' and helpless negros are still relyin on our majority superiors to give us free hand outs. You are ALL FOOLS. 😱

I disagree on your first two points emphatically, and to a degree on your third because it would have been advantageous to know the game of med school admissions from an insiders perspective. As for being either disadvantaged or advantaged please nothing in this world is as cut and dried as that. Do you see every one who doesn't share your viewpoint as a fool? NO one has made reference to the civil rights struggle or slavery because every one realizes their impact on American culture, and I do give credit to the individuals who were the impetus behind the changes in this country. By the way you ever met a Jew, a Serb, a Russian whose heritage is from the time of Stalin, a native American or any other person, because human history is riddled with horrors, do not claim to have sole province on tragedy.

 

[beefballs]

Are you saying that I was attacking the other people who disagreed with me? B/c clearly that was not my intention.

NO I was not saying that, it was a reference to the general tone of this thread, I am curious to hear what you say regarding my question though.

 

[riceman04]

NO I was not saying that, it was a reference to the general tone of this thread, I am curious to hear what you say regarding my question though.

For the most part I would have to agree with you only b/c trends show that URM's represent the majority of the educationally and socioeconomically disadvantaged.

 

[BeBlessedMD]

I disagree on your first two points emphatically, and to a degree on your third because it would have been advantageous to know the game of med school admissions from an insiders perspective. As for being either disadvantaged or advantaged please nothing in this world is as cut and dried as that. Do you see every one who doesn't share your viewpoint as a fool? NO one has made reference to the civil rights struggle or slavery because every one realizes their impact on American culture, and I do give credit to the individuals who were the impetus behind the changes in this country. By the way you ever met a Jew, a Serb, a Russian whose heritage is from the time of Stalin, a native American or any other person, because human history is riddled with horrors, do not claim to have sole province on tragedy.

Sadly those tragedies happened to those cultures in other countries, and they can rant and rave about their own injustices as they like (in their own respective settings) . America is my setting, and the "majority" is my injustice. And you are foolish to disagree with me on the 1st 3 questions. Just walk into your local hospital and look around. It will be evident who has the advantage.

 

[MoosePilot]

For the most part I would have to agree with you only b/c trends show that URM's represent the majority of the educationally and socioeconomically disadvantaged.

What if this wasn't the case? What if there were more poor white folks trying to get into med school than poor URMs? Would this change your answer?

 

[BeBlessedMD]

Identifying yourself primarily by race is racist. If a white person isn't supposed to think of you primarily as black, how does it make sense if you do it?

Taking credit for the achievements of others is ridiculous. I can't take credit for Einstein's achivements because we have a similar complexion. Why can you take credit for other's admirable struggles for the same reason? What have you done to be able to use the first person as you've done above?

I have fought for our (that's me and my fellow Americans, regardless of skin color) U.S. freedoms and feel justified in using the first person. Have you?

Aww....US freedoms...I'm talking about the fight for freedom within the US. Thanx though, I do appreciate your efforts also. And as far as taking credit for other's actions you think Martin Luther Kings dreams ended with his children? Einstien's accomplishents are used everday, all Im sayin is to show Martin and Malcolm the same respect as we do to einstien. Furthermore this isnt about me, its about the way you and other's like you percieve the world around you, which unfortunately happens to reflect in your opinions of URM status in med admissions.

 

[beefballs]

Sadly those tragedies happened to those cultures in other countries, and they can rant and rave about their own injustices as they like (in their own respective settings) . America is my setting, and the "majority" is my injustice. And you are foolish to disagree with me on the 1st 3 questions. Just walk into your local hospital and look around. It will be evident who has the advantage.

ever check the population data from a US census guess what you see more white faces primarily because there are more white people.

so if majority=white=your injustice, you condemn a race of people for your real or percieved slights, what does that make you?

 

[beefballs]

Sadly those tragedies happened to those cultures in other countries, and they can rant and rave about their own injustices as they like (in their own respective settings) . America is my setting, and the "majority" is my injustice. And you are foolish to disagree with me on the 1st 3 questions. Just walk into your local hospital and look around. It will be evident who has the advantage.

NATIVE AMERICAN!!!!

 

[BeBlessedMD]

ever check the population data from a US census guess what you see more white faces primarily because there are more white people.

so if majority=white=your injustice, you condemn a race of people for your real or percieved slights, what does that make you?

Unfortunately for you, the only people of the majority I am condemning are the ones who share your views. So yes you are condemned to my injustice. As far as what I am, I'm good lookin URM on his way to bein a good physician. I wont be taking your seat or any other med students seat, I will be taking my own. I'm done for the day.

 

[BeBlessedMD]

NATIVE AMERICAN!!!!

OOps...you got me. Yes, they should actually be more upset than african americans. And as this may be to your shigrin, they fight the same fight we do. You and others like you respect their status in med school as much as you respect african americans....so why would you bother with that one?.....For reals though I'm done...I gotta watch the SUNS GAME!!! GO PHEONIX!!!!!!!!!!

 

[MoosePilot]

Aww....US freedoms...I'm talking about the fight for freedom within the US. Thanx though, I do appreciate your efforts also. And as far as taking credit for other's actions you think Martin Luther Kings dreams ended with his children? Einstien's accomplishents are used everday, all Im sayin is to show Martin and Malcolm the same respect as we do to einstien. Furthermore this isnt about me, its about the way you and other's like you percieve the world around you, which unfortunately happens to reflect in your opinions of URM status in med admissions.

No, definitely his dreams didn't die. Which is part of what makes him great, that he verbalized a common dream in such a way as to make it more understandable to many. His dreams didn't die, but the efforts each person makes towards the fulfillment of them are their own. I don't want to take credit away from WWII airmen, because I didn't go through exactly what they did. They were part of the "greatest generation" for a reason. Martin Luther King Jr. deserves all of his own credit. I want everyone to just take credit and assign blame to individuals, not to lineages or heritage groups.

 

[KNightInBlue]

So lets debate properly, even though this is one of the most heavily debated, least understood subjects posted on this website. Yes, there are flaws in almost everything existing in today's society. Explain why there is a flaw in the public education system that damn near ensures that schools in poorer neighborhoods are not funded as well as schools in wealthier neighborhoods. Explain why kids in these disadvantaged neighborhoods often have to go without proper school materials and an actual teacher simply because their school does not have the same resources. Explain why there is such a discepancy in healthcare. Hell, explain why it is so damn easy for a child to gain acceptance into the school of their choice (despite not being qualified) if their parents donate enough money or have simply attended themselves.

So you are saying the system sucks. No argument there.

Now back to medical school processes: When I said read MSAR I was hoping you would get the clue to investigate each school and its policies. Take the UC's as an example. They pride themselved on focusing on the disadvantaged student and not just URM's (all the UC's abide by this policy).
In the MSAR it says (on the UC Davis page), "the mission is to ensure diversity among students and faculty through outreach, development, and support activities for individuals from educationally and socioeconomically disadvantaged backgrounds....................ya da ya da ya."

The same is said about Univ. Washington and several other schools around the country.

And why are you so worried about URM status when it obviously is not helping that much to begin with. Why don't you check out the dwindling numbers of URM matriculants into medical school, then ask yourself if that many URM's are taking your spot and everyone else's.

I am going to put aside the alarming naivete of your assumption that every word put down in the MSAR is the Lord's own truth and deal with the numbers.

First of all, just because the numbers of URM MATRICULANTS is dwindling down does not neccessarily mean their URM status isn't helping. I say this because the number of URM APPLICANTS is also dwindling. Basically, this just means fewer URMs are applying, not that their status is being ignored. The INDIVIDUAL URM applicants are still afforded due attention to their status.

Second, the question is dealing with ESTABLISHED principles, not the individual preferences of various schools. AA is an established principle (maybe not in name anymore since it's so touchy, but the IDEA) and is therefore accorded its due by the majority of schools. Taking socioeconomic conditions into account is NOT an established principle and is only CLAIMED to be taken into consideration by schools few and far between.

URM status may not help someone clinch their place in med school, but it most definitely helps. If you want to hear it from the horse's own mouth, you can try posting this question on the examkrackers website to Judy Levine, a former admissions director and she will answer it

KnightInBlue

P.S. I never said URMs are taking non-URMs' spots. Quite the contrary. If someone has the numbers and ECs, they WILL get in, somewhere. If someone didn't get in, its because they didn't have the numbers/ECs. Its foolishness to say some URM took their spot (this may happen at ONE school, but quite impossible to happen at every school one applies to).
I am just saying that URM status, for THAT individual does help, but doesn't hinder non-URMs.

P.P.S. As for the wealthy URMs, thats another point we agree on. Someone mentioned before that a white person from the ghetto is ignored but a black person from beverly hills who drives a porsche is given extra attention. How many fresh princes of bel air are there??? This black guy is the EXCEPTION, not the norm.

P.P.P.S. By the way, just out of curiosity, are you pro or con AA? I can see that you definitely don't have a problem with it, but that doesn't mean you are for it. I myself am pro AA for Native Americans. As far as African Americans and Hispanics are concerned, I still haven't made up my mind.

 

[Shredder]

has anyone successfully done this? im indian but people thought i was hispanic when i was little, and my last name sounds hispanic. if i could pull off changing my race temporarily the payoff would be enormous, with my credentials definitely top 10 admission with scholarships. do you think this is an option? i could stop stressing about my apps then and slap down whatever i want, it would be a good life.

 

[Dr.Pdizzle]

these topics always get some of the funniest posts How many years do you think it will take for decisions race-based (both positive or negative decisions that impact individuals), to cease? 100 years from now? 200? 500+?

On a more serious note, in all honesty, who would you rather have as your doctor, someone the same color of skin as you or someone of a different color of skin? Obviously a lot of factors go into that (ie😛ast experiences, personality, skill/training, humor, good looks, etc.) but try to answer it based on your initial perceptions.

On a subconscious level, I think the majority would choose to have a doctor of their own skin color--they'd probably feel more comfortable with them and be more willing to share intimate details that may be vitale to the health of the patient. Just food for thought.

PS: I wonder if any studies have been done on this, if so, link please?...if not, bastards don't take my thesis!!

 

[SitraAchra]

has anyone successfully done this? im indian but people thought i was hispanic when i was little, and my last name sounds hispanic. if i could pull off changing my race temporarily the payoff would be enormous, with my credentials definitely top 10 admission with scholarships. do you think this is an option? i could stop stressing about my apps then and slap down whatever i want, it would be a good life.

The first half of that sentence contradicts the second half.

But - I detect sarcasm anyways.

 

[it.]

not responding to your post in any way, but

fo' shizzle Dr.Pdizzle

...just had to get that out of my system 😀 😛

 

[Shredder]

The first half of that sentence contradicts the second half.

But - I detect sarcasm anyways.

? i meant not worrying about the exact wording of the PS and work/activities bc it wouldnt matter, id be set. sarcasm, kinda but its half serious

 

[Psycho Doctor]

has anyone successfully done this? im indian but people thought i was hispanic when i was little, and my last name sounds hispanic. if i could pull off changing my race temporarily the payoff would be enormous, with my credentials definitely top 10 admission with scholarships. do you think this is an option? i could stop stressing about my apps then and slap down whatever i want, it would be a good life.

i'm not sure if it's true for med applications, but i know for college apps they ask for proof of the tribe you belong to.

wow, looking at your avatar it's so hard to picture you as American Indian or Hispanic. 😛

 

[Shredder]

i'm not sure if it's true for med applications, but i know for college apps they ask for proof of the tribe you belong to.

wow, looking at your avatar it's so hard to picture you as American Indian or Hispanic. 😛

no im indian like indian indian, no tribes. i think they really need to phase out "american indian" and shift to "native american", columbus was incorrect in labeling them as indians. injun maybe, tom sawyer like, hehe kidding. but yeah, they dont ask of proof for what kind of hispanic tribe one belongs to so i wonder if i could get away with it.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

no im indian like indian indian, no tribes. i think they really need to phase out "american indian" and shift to "native american", columbus was incorrect in labeling them as indians. injun maybe, tom sawyer like, hehe kidding. but yeah, they dont ask of proof for what kind of hispanic tribe one belongs to so i wonder if i could get away with it.

sorry, i meant to use Native American, that is the correct terminology. and yea i don't know why they single those out to ask for proof...maybe they don't any more. i know they did when i was applying to college.

 

[Rzarecta]

sorry, i meant to use Native American, that is the correct terminology. and yea i don't know why they single those out to ask for proof...maybe they don't any more. i know they did when i was applying to college.

Native Americans might be singled out because of government benefits to memebers of the tribes. I also know that some medical schools reserve spots for them (University of North Dakota, for example).

 

[MadameLULU]

has anyone successfully done this? im indian but people thought i was hispanic when i was little, and my last name sounds hispanic. if i could pull off changing my race temporarily the payoff would be enormous, with my credentials definitely top 10 admission with scholarships. do you think this is an option? i could stop stressing about my apps then and slap down whatever i want, it would be a good life.

This idea makes me sick to my stomach, but I bet it's been tried before. I wonder about these fu$ker's integrity... 👎 As someone mentioned, schools may ask to see proof of your tribal affiliation. I know UMich does. Also, you can be dismissed from med school if you falsify your application.

 

[Shredder]

integrity

dont ppl claim urm status when they are only a fraction urm, 1/8 or 1/16 even. i dont see that as very integrous(?), so why bother playing by the rules

 

[tigress]

no im indian like indian indian, no tribes. i think they really need to phase out "american indian" and shift to "native american", columbus was incorrect in labeling them as indians. injun maybe, tom sawyer like, hehe kidding. but yeah, they dont ask of proof for what kind of hispanic tribe one belongs to so i wonder if i could get away with it.

*putting on geek hat*

I hope nobody minds a bit of a digression here. This is a quote from a book I just read, In the Hands of the Great Spirit by Jake Page:

"A brief comment on terminology. As you have no doubt already noticed, I use the word 'Indian' freely. Other terms also appear in this book, such as 'indigenous people,' 'nations,' 'tribes,' and 'native people.' The problem with the word 'Indian' is twofold. One, it is the result of an enormous geographical misperception. Two, and worse, it generalizes several hundred different cultures into a single unit. As such it is resented as a vestige of colonialsim by some Indian people and their friends. On the other hand, as David E. Wilkens, a member of the Lumbee tribe and a political scientist at the University of Arizona, has written in his monumental study of the Indian sovereignty and the U.S. Supreme Court, 'Indian or American Indian is the most common [appellation] used by many indigenous and non-indigenous persons and by institutions, and so it will be used in the text when no tribe is specified.'

"The term 'Native American,' Wilkens points out, as others before him have, includes native Hawaiians, Indians, Eskimos, Aleuts, and in fact, all the descendents of all immigrants to these shores (which ultimately means everyone born in this hemisphere), and thus is more confusing than the term 'American Indian.' In my experience, which is largely anecdotal and far from exhaustively scientific, reservation Indians and Indian scholars tend to use the phrase 'American Indian,' while urban Indians and those who are of multitribal origins and many non-Indian scholars use 'Native American,' but no generalization holds here. . . ."

*taking geek hat off*

Anyway, Shredder, I thought from the first post that you meant Indian as in Asian Indian, not American Indian.

Technically I'm part American Indian (Cherokee), but I think the adcoms would have trouble believing that when a white looking Orthodox Jewish girl walks into the room

 

[tigress]

Okay, so I just want to bring up a few things here. I think there are far too few black women and, especially, men in medicine and science. I think everything should be done to encourage more of them to go into these fields, and in fact to go into all professions. I believe that the majority of blacks in America face significant obstacles that no other group faces (American Indians face a different, and these days sometimes worse, set of obstacles). HOWEVER, I think any special consideration for application to medical school should be based on socioeconomic factors, like the disadvantaged section of AMCAS, rather than on race. This would, in many ways, serve the same function as AA, but it would also include many other types of disadvantaged people, while excluding privileged URMs (of which there are increasingly many, and that's wonderful). At the same time, there should be more programs focusing on high school and college students who are URMs to encourage them to advance into professional careers.

What I really wanted to bring up, but I'm taking forever to do because I"m being my typical long-winded self, is the issue of mentioning slavery every time a discussion of this nature takes place. I find this unfortunate. We need to be looking at the present and the future, not the past. Nobody denies that blacks have a hard time in America today, or that your parents and grandparents had a much harder time in their generations. But to me, this approaches the same issues as when my fellow Jews defensively bring up the Holocaust every time they feel threatened. In fact, the Holocaust was more recent than slavery, and is more fresh in the minds of the Jewish people in some ways. However, bringing either up does nothing for an argument. I can have no survivor guilt or persecution complex, because I was brought up in America, two generations removed from the Holocaust. Of course, these are very significant parts of our history, but that's what they are -- history. Yes, I have experienced antisemitism in my life. I certainly don't think I can even approach understanding of how it feels to be black in America, because the two are vastly different. And Jews in America today are, on average, fairly priveleged. I just believe that focusing on the past, which we can't change, can only hold us down. Black people in America have many battles to fight in the current day and age without always returning to fight the battle of slavery over again. Almost all Americans, albeit and unfortunately to different degrees, will agree that slavery was a horrible part of our history. However, those of us alive today had nothing to do with it. Especially since many (maybe most?) of us are from families who immigrated to this country after slavery had ended. It just seems to me to be a futile and largely self-defeating argument.

I'm sorry if I have offended anybody; that was certainly not my intention. I just wanted to air these thoughts and write another book on sdn 😛. Now, I got 3 hours of sleep last night so I'm going to eat dinner and go to bed.

 

[amand0r]

The only problem I have with the whole thing (and this may just be a wording issue) is that schools say they actively recruit URM's. Are schools breaking down their doors trying to get them to attend?!

 

[donnap86]

Why are we even having this debate?

URM stands for Under Represented Minority as in # of minority Docs. to # of minorities in population.

The amount of black peeps in Medical in so few that white people shouldn't even feel threatened by URM. Only ~1000 Afro. Am's start medical school each year out of a total of ~16,000 matriculant. Thats 1-16, and most of these people are at Howard or Meharry to name a few. How can u feel threatened by this? Look at the majority of Med school, a lot only have 3-5 black people. Most don't have more than 10 per class out of 160 student. This isn't all about money and how poor they think u are and yes that should also be a factor becaue black DOES NOT = poor and white DOES NOT = rich. This is about percentage of minority doc's not being equal to percentage of minorites in general population.

 

[donnap86]

Why are we even having this debate?

URM stands for Under Represented Minority as in # of minority Docs. to # of minorities in population.

The amount of black peeps in Medical in so few that white people shouldn't even feel threatened by URM. Only ~1000 Afro. Am's start medical school each year out of a total of ~16,000 matriculant. Thats 1-16, and most of these people are at Howard or Meharry to name a few. How can u feel threatened by this? Look at the majority of Med school, a lot only have 3-5 black people. Most don't have more than 10 per class out of 160 student. This isn't all about money and how poor they think u are and yes that should also be a factor becaue black DOES NOT = poor and white DOES NOT = rich. This is about percentage of minority doc's not being equal to percentage of minorites in general population.

 

[Braveheart]

This is just a sidebar to Tigress comment...do u all realize that African-American and American Indian are two of most conquer race. What I mean is that the conquerors forced them into learning their culture, religion, and ideologies. Information is strength and when I came back to this country in 1990 from a Liberian (AFRICA) Civil War, I realized that African-American (I am one myself but seen two sides: True Africans and African American) has forgotten that. I was teased many times for my accent and coming from Africa by not whites but African Americans (i was like, don't u remember our ancestors). When I think about myself as being black, I don't think of slavery, I think of the GREAT MEN AND WOMEN that came before us to make freedom possible. WE ARE THE DREAM OF GREAT MEN AND WOMEN, LETS NOT FORGET THAT.