URM=unethical?

[Planet Earth]

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Isn't the fact that URMs get an advantage during the medical school application process in a way a form of racism against everyone else in the process? I just think it is unfair for non-URM students to be penalized for the race they were born into. Any thoughts?

 

[Siggy]

Obvious troll is obvious.

 

[Planet Earth]

I promise I am not a troll. I've been a long time reader. I just wanted to know more about when and why medical schools created the URM program and what everyone on SDN thinks about it, philosophically. This should be the best place for discourse on this topic since so many people on SDN are currently involved in the process.

 

[tjquinn]

This isn't a troll question... it is controversial however. In general, I agree with the OP. The fact that someone's skin color imparts an inherent advantage in the application seems bizarre. There are several African-Americans, and Mexicans that I have gone through the entire pre-medical curriculum with. Their parents are successful, and so are they. They are not inherently disadvantaged, in fact they are doing quite well in all of their classes. I understand the concept of URM status; however, it seems more applicable to financial status as opposed to skin color. I know plenty of white people who are poor who's families have been in an endless cycle of poorness.

 

[Planet Earth]

This isn't a troll question... it is controversial however. In general, I agree with the OP. The fact that someone's skin color imparts an inherent advantage in the application seems bizarre. There are several African-Americans, and Mexicans that I have gone through the entire pre-medical curriculum with. Their parents are successful, and so are they. They are not inherently disadvantaged, in fact they are doing quite well in all of their classes. I understand the concept of URM status; however, it seems more applicable to financial status as opposed to skin color. I know plenty of white people who are poor who's families have been in an endless cycle of poorness.

Do medical schools currently have a system in place to account for financial status in the admissions process? Are there any plans by AAMC to re-vamp the system? What are the classifications to be considered a URM and what changes have been made to this definition throughout the history of the URM program?

 

[dingyibvs]

A pure Asian friend of mine applied as an URM, successfully, by saying that he's 1/8 hispanic, which isn't true. Funny how something as ridiculous as that can actually make a difference in your application.

This thread will probably be moved or locked though.

 

[mechtel]

I believe race is one element in disadvantage independent of SES (family education, income, wealth). But, certainly non-URM can experience hardship.

I also believe that it serves social interest to have a diverse body of physicians entering the profession.

For these reasons, I believe URM status should be one factor in the admissions process. But, I do believe other forms of disadvantage should be given due weight.

 

[Phosphorus Ylide]

Ethical or not, it's just the way it is. By these same standards, I am probably overrepresented minority, but oh well. Such is life.





P.S. What a coincidence. I, too, hail from planet earth.

 

[WNT Signaling]

Do medical schools currently have a system in place to account for financial status in the admissions process?

Financial based AA disproportionately benefits whites and Asians. AMCAS does allow one to apply as disadvantaged, regardless of their race, if they have suffered/lived through economic hardship

 

[drzing]

no, its perfectly fine.

obama said it..blacks want black doctors

 

[Phosphorus Ylide]

Financial based AA disproportionately benefits whites and Asians. AMCAS does allow one to apply as disadvantaged, regardless of their race, if they have suffered/lived through economic hardship

I'm curious as to how financial based AA disproportionately benefits whites and asians.

 

[tjquinn]

Financial hardship only gets you fee waivers, not lower stats required to get into medical school. A good friend of mine (URM) is ashamed of this policy. He feels like the lower bar for URM's seems to suggest some sort of genetic inferiority. We talk about this a lot, and he is happy that he does not benefit from (he is one of those freaks with a 40 MCAT and 3.9).

 

[Planet Earth]

P.S. What a coincidence. I, too, hail from planet earth.

Nice!! 😀

 

[dingyibvs]

I believe race is one element in disadvantage independent of SES (family education, income, wealth). But, certainly non-URM can experience hardship.

I also believe that it serves social interest to have a diverse body of physicians entering the profession.

For these reasons, I believe URM status should be one factor in the admissions process. But, I do believe other forms of disadvantage should be given due weight.

I had considered that as well, but I have to say it's all bogus. I understand that people tend to feel more comfortable with physicians of their own race, but they shouldn't be. It's a societal problem, and using race as a criterion in admissions is only contributing to that problem.

 

[WNT Signaling]

I'm curious as to how financial based AA disproportionately benefits whites and asians.

The argument is that if four candidates (one black, asian, hispanic, and white) all come from families that have the same income, which is below the poverty line, the Asian and white students will still be better qualified (higher gpa's, etc) than their black and hispanic counterparts. Thus if AA were based solely on economics, Asians and whites would benefit more than low-income hispanics and blacks

 

[Planet Earth]

I had considered that as well, but I have to say it's all bogus. I understand that people tend to feel more comfortable with physicians of their own race, but they shouldn't be. It's a societal problem, and using race as a criterion in admissions is only contributing to that problem.

This brings up a bigger question. Should we adapt our ideals to our society or should we adapt our society to our ideals?

 

[dingyibvs]

The argument is that if four candidates (one black, asian, hispanic, and white) all come from familys that have the same income, which is below the poverty line, the Asian and white students will still be better qualified (higher gpa's, etc) than their black and hispanic counterparts. Thus if AA were based solely on economics, Asians and whites would benefit more than low-income hispanics and blacks

But they would be benefitting because of they're more qualified, so what's the problem with that? Besides, isn't one of the primary reasons used to justify AA's is that blacks/hispanics are generally from poorer income families and have less educational opportunities?

 

[Planet Earth]

The argument is that if four candidates (one black, asian, hispanic, and white) all come from families that have the same income, which is below the poverty line, the Asian and white students will still be better qualified (higher gpa's, etc) than their black and hispanic counterparts. Thus if AA were based solely on economics, Asians and whites would benefit more than low-income hispanics and blacks

Why do you assume that asians and whites HAVE to have higher GPAs than blacks or hispanics?

 

[WNT Signaling]

Why do you assume that asians and whites HAVE to have higher GPAs than blacks or hispanics?

I don't assume anything; it is the basis for why AA is race based and not financial

 

[dingyibvs]

This brings up a bigger question. Should we adapt our ideals to our society or should we adapt our society to our ideals?

I tend think that it's both. Ideals and societies are on a co-evolutionary path, IMO, and one should change with the other. The problem is that our ideals aren't evolving along with the society these days. The society has moved far, far forward since the days of racial segregation, yet even for advanced institutions like medical schools, they still treat race like a huge issue.

Most of the educated young people these days don't care about race at all, yet racial differences are forced upon us by racist rules stemming from AA. So what if some blacks, for example, still don't trust white doctors? Will they not go see a doctor if they're sick? Will they continue to distrust white doctors if they treat them with respect and care? By creating a system which allows blacks to only see black doctors we are, in fact, promoting segregation.

 

[WNT Signaling]

I tend think that it's both. Ideals and societies are on a co-evolutionary path, IMO, and one should change with the other. The problem is that our ideals aren't evolving along with the society these days. The society has moved far, far forward since the days of racial segregation, yet even for advanced institutions like medical schools, they still treat race like a huge issue.

Most of the educated young people these days don't care about race at all, yet racial differences are forced upon us by racist rules stemming from AA. So what if some blacks, for example, still don't trust white doctors? Will they not go see a doctor if they're sick? Will they continue to distrust white doctors if they treat them with respect and care? By creating a system which allows blacks to only see black doctors we are, in fact, promoting segregation.

I think you are missing the basis for AA. What do you plan to do with your MD? I'm guessing you want to go into ortho and make lots of money--maybe not, but probably. So who are going to be the primary care physicians working in the inner city for, relatively speaking, crappy pay. Is it going to be a white physician who has lived a priviledged life? Probably not. The most likely people to serve in these communities are people who are from them. We do not train black doctors simply to treat black patients, we train black physicians because they are the only ones willing to treat black patients in low-income areas

 

[Planet Earth]

Also doesn't this create the situation where some URM pre-meds may slack off during college because the standards of getting into medical school and ultimately becoming a doctor are not as high? IMO, actions like these should not be promoted by the system.

 

[Phosphorus Ylide]

I think you are missing the basis for AA. What do you plan to do with your MD? I'm guessing you want to go into ortho and make lots of money--maybe not, but probably. So who are going to be the primary care physicians working in the inner city for, relatively speaking, crappy pay. Is it going to be a white physician who has lived a priviledged life? Probably not. The most likely people to serve in these communities are people who are from them. We do not train black doctors simply to treat black patients, we train black physicians because they are the only ones willing to treat black patients in low-income areas

I actually want to be one of these physicians and am of Asian descent. This is my primary motivation for medicine. 🙂

 

[crazycab]

I think you are missing the basis for AA. What do you plan to do with your MD? I'm guessing you want to go into ortho and make lots of money--maybe not, but probably. So who are going to be the primary care physicians working in the inner city for, relatively speaking, crappy pay. Is it going to be a white physician who has lived a priviledged life? Probably not. The most likely people to serve in these communities are people who are from them. We do not train black doctors simply to treat black patients, we train black physicians because they are the only ones willing to treat black patients in low-income areas

I don't think your assertion is true at all. It seems to be a gross generalization at best to say that no white doctors want to work in the inner city for poor pay. I am white and I grew up in the middle class. I guess I am lucky enough to have parents who taught me that not everyone got to experience the same comfort level in their lifestyle. I want to be a doctor specifically so I CAN work in situations with underprivileged and underserved populations.

 

[WNT Signaling]

I don't think your assertion is true at all. It seems to be a gross generalization at best to say that no white doctors want to work in the inner city for poor pay. I am white and I grew up in the middle class. I guess I am lucky enough to have parents who taught me that not everyone got to experience the same comfort level in their lifestyle. I want to be a doctor specifically so I CAN work in situations with underprivileged and underserved populations.

You're right, it is a generalization, but do you think after four years of medical school, 200K in debt, and at least 3 years of a grueling residency, you'll still be so optimistic about helping others? I think your intentions are wonderful, but greed gets the best of all of us; afterall, we're only human

Edit: sorry, I think I have my cynical pants on tonight

 

[Planet Earth]

You're right, it is a generalization, but do you think after four years of medical school, 200K in debt, and at least 3 years of a grueling residency, you'll still be so optimistic about helping others? I think your intentions are wonderful, but greed gets the best of all of us; afterall, we're only human

Edit: sorry, I think I have my cynical pants on tonight

Are you saying then that URM doctors are less vulnerable to greed????

 

[WNT Signaling]

Are you saying then that URM doctors are less vulnerable to greed????

Are you putting words in my mouth?

 

[Narmerguy]

I don't assume anything; it is the basis for why AA is race based and not financial

You're trying to say that the basis for the current AA policy is that whites and Asians will always have higher scores than URMs? Give me a break.

 

[Planet Earth]

You're right, it is a generalization, but do you think after four years of medical school, 200K in debt, and at least 3 years of a grueling residency, you'll still be so optimistic about helping others? I think your intentions are wonderful, but greed gets the best of all of us; afterall, we're only human

Edit: sorry, I think I have my cynical pants on tonight

Are you putting words in my mouth?

No i'm not. Everyone will be 200k in debt after four years of medical school and will have to do a grueling residency. Including URM doctors.

 

[greatnt249]

Are you putting words in my mouth?

If the words being "put in your mouth" isn't what you were heavily implying, then what exactly was the point in you mentioning likelihoods of Caucasian doctors not wanting to practice primary care in underserved areas?

 

[dingyibvs]

I think you are missing the basis for AA. What do you plan to do with your MD? I'm guessing you want to go into ortho and make lots of money--maybe not, but probably. So who are going to be the primary care physicians working in the inner city for, relatively speaking, crappy pay. Is it going to be a white physician who has lived a priviledged life? Probably not. The most likely people to serve in these communities are people who are from them. We do not train black doctors simply to treat black patients, we train black physicians because they are the only ones willing to treat black patients in low-income areas

I actually know some people from inner city who are on track to have great careers, do you know what their motivation is? It's to get the heck out of the inner cities. I'm pretty sure I know more people who are from fairly wealthy families who want to help the needy.

In fact, one of my friends was a black kid from the inner cities and he's in dental school now. Based on what I know about him, I wholeheartedly support cutting him some slack(and oh boy did the dental schools cut him some slack). He's beat some pretty long odds to get to where he is. The problem is that he should've been given some leeway due to his inner-city upbringing, not because he was black. Also, I know this is only anecdotal evidence, but he wants to work in the "poor" town of Ft. Lauderdale, Florida.

 

[Bernoull]

There's good points on both sides of this issue. The tragedy of this subject is that it almost always devolves into a black/white shouting match, which does everyone a disservice. I think we all learn something IF we are willing to challenge our preconceptions/biases and be willing to be persuaded.

Wrt to medical school admissions, AA strives to achieve a physician population reflective of the general population, and more importantly, to reduce healthcare disparities. It's simply a fact that certain communities are medically underserved, namely inner cities, rural areas, reservations etc..

Another challenge with education generally, especially medical education, is that statistically a child is more likely to be educated if the parent(s) are. Education, or the lack thereof, is strongly perpetuated intergenerationally. We also know that, ceteris paribus, physicians are more likely to practice in the communities they hail from

As a society, how do we ensure that medical education is accessible by a cross-section of society and not only the well-heeled or fortunate. How do we increase access in medically underserved regions and for disadvantaged students?

My take is:

1. Disadvantaged students (irrespective of race), should be given preference & financial support to facilitate entry into med school. Otherwise they will be precluded from medical school at much higher rates than the average student.

2. Premeds (irrespective of race and disadvantage status) who commit to serve in medically underserved areas should be given preference in order to increase healthcare access in these areas.

As the system currently stands, I don't think too many freshly-minted residents are rushing to practice in Inuit hamlets, Indian reservations, remote rural areas or blighted inner cities. Since this will not naturally happen, our healthcare system must incentivize a) healthcare access in underserved areas and b) access for disadvantaged students.

 

[Bernoull]

You're trying to say that the basis for the current AA policy is that whites and Asians will always have higher scores than URMs? Give me a break.

Not always, but statistically yes..

 

[imdanumb1]

no, its perfectly fine.

obama said it..blacks want black doctors

True. It takes time to build trust, even with cultural competency. Also racial diversity may be advantageous in an educational setting.

See below:
http://aer.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/46/2/322?sp

"Results suggest that benefits associated with diversity may be more far-reaching than previously documented. Not only do students benefit from engaging with racial diversity through related knowledge acquisition or cross-racial interaction but also from being enrolled on a campus where other students are more engaged with those forms of diversity, irrespective of their own level of engagement."

 

[Bernoull]

I actually know some people from inner city who are on track to have great careers, do you know what their motivation is? It's to get the heck out of the inner cities. I'm pretty sure I know more people who are from fairly wealthy families who want to help the needy.

In fact, one of my friends was a black kid from the inner cities and he's in dental school now. Based on what I know about him, I wholeheartedly support cutting him some slack(and oh boy did the dental schools cut him some slack). He's beat some pretty long odds to get to where he is. The problem is that he should've been given some leeway due to his inner-city upbringing, not because he was black. Also, I know this is only anecdotal evidence, but he wants to work in the "poor" town of Ft. Lauderdale, Florida.

I totally agree. It may be innercity, indian reservations, rural areas, foster upbringing etc... any upbringing that conferred extreme disadvantages

 

[Bernoull]

no, its perfectly fine.

obama said it..blacks want black doctors

Bull crap... what's ur source??

 

[BerlinDude]

URMs are so heavily discriminated against in all aspects of their lives that affirmative action is necessary to compensate.

In any case, I'm not so concerned with URMs. At my school, most of the URMs did fine in class and were well qualified to be there. The people who were dumber than a box of nails and obviously didn't deserve to be there were legacy admissions or children of committee members or relatives of wealthy donors to the university.

 

[WNT Signaling]

If the words being "put in your mouth" isn't what you were heavily implying, then what exactly was the point in you mentioning likelihoods of Caucasian doctors not wanting to practice primary care in underserved areas?

If you are from an undeserved area, you might leave, but your family, friends, and childhood are still there. In other words, you still have elements tethering you to that community, and these elements may or may not draw you back. A non-URM pre-medical student might have high intentions of working in undeserved communities, but their optimism might be lost along the way, but it might not.

 

[TedyBearSuicide]

"The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race," Chief Justice Roberts wrote.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/10/us/10scotus.html

Justices to Hear White Firefighters' Bias Claims:

Frank Ricci has been a firefighter here for 11 years, and he would do just about anything to advance to lieutenant.

The last time the city offered a pioalxam, he said in a sworn statement, he gave up a second job and studied up to 13 hours a day. Mr. Ricci, who is dyslexic, paid an acquaintance more than $1,000 to read textbooks onto audiotapes. He made flashcards, took practice tests, worked with a study group and participated in mock interviews.

Mr. Ricci did well, he said, coming in sixth among the 77 candidates who took the exam. But the city threw out the test, because none of the 19 African-American firefighters who took it qualified for promotion. That decision prompted Mr. Ricci and 17 other white firefighters, including one Hispanic, to sue the city, alleging racial discrimination.

Point being, the claim that Caucasians and Asians score above African Americans and Hispanics may or may not be true, however their excellence in academia is simply due to hard work and sacrifice.

 

[UTsksk]

This isn't a troll question... it is controversial however. In general, I agree with the OP. The fact that someone's skin color imparts an inherent advantage in the application seems bizarre. There are several African-Americans, and Mexicans that I have gone through the entire pre-medical curriculum with. Their parents are successful, and so are they. They are not inherently disadvantaged, in fact they are doing quite well in all of their classes. I understand the concept of URM status; however, it seems more applicable to financial status as opposed to skin color. I know plenty of white people who are poor who's families have been in an endless cycle of poorness.

I'd say Hispanic over Mexican. People get easily offended when you push them into a group of one country when there are numerous countries who follow under "Hispanic". I'm just saying that you should be careful because you don't want to offend anyone.

I'm Mexican 😀

 

[Simplify]

The simple fact of under represented minority should make people cringe. If the only way you can get into school is by pulling the race card, maybe you don't belong in the first place. You can call that harsh, but a boatload of folks have been through hard times whether it be financial, personal, military/combat, etc. and we don't get a free pass. Skin color shouldn't give anyone an upper hand and it is inherently unethical to hand an advantage to people who do not deserve the position. Too many people want a handout. If you want success you have to earn it not be born with the right color of skin. Affirmative action and other laws/rules were designed to protect minorities from discrimination not to give them a free pass to succeed where other, more qualified candidates can not.

 

[TedyBearSuicide]

I'd say Hispanic over Mexican. People get easily offended when you push them into a group of one country when there are numerous countries who follow under "Hispanic". I'm just saying that you should be careful because you don't want to offend anyone.

I'm Mexican 😀

One of my sociology professor told us that the term Latino is preferred over Hispanic by Latinos.

 

[UTsksk]

The simple fact of under represented minority should make people cringe. If the only way you can get into school is by pulling the race card, maybe you don't belong in the first place. You can call that harsh, but a boatload of folks have been through hard times whether it be financial, personal, military/combat, etc. and we don't get a free pass. Skin color shouldn't give anyone an upper hand and it is inherently unethical to hand an advantage to people who do not deserve the position. Too many people want a handout. If you want success you have to earn it not be born with the right color of skin. Affirmative action and other laws/rules were designed to protect minorities from discrimination not to give them a free pass to succeed where other, more qualified candidates can not.

Not that I'm condoning getting in by the color of your skin, but you do know there are underprivileged areas that lack a serious grasp of education. For instance, when I took my organic chem I had friends who saw glimpses of it in high school while the highest chemistry in my high school was sophomore chemistry pre-ap. It's ideal for everyone to be seen as equal, but as long as there are differences in education in various parts of the country, I'm afraid you're stuck with URM.

 

[smarttee88]

Financial hardship only gets you fee waivers, not lower stats required to get into medical school. A good friend of mine (URM) is ashamed of this policy. He feels like the lower bar for URM's seems to suggest some sort of genetic inferiority. We talk about this a lot, and he is happy that he does not benefit from (he is one of those freaks with a 40 MCAT and 3.9).

I agree completely. I like to believe that I am highly capable of accomplishing anything I put my mind to and this mind set has brought me much success thus far. I do understand that this field would like to see more black physicians, however, I think that it sends out the wrong message when the standards are lowered for certain people JUST BECAUSE OF THEIR RACE. I don't want the African American community to be viewed as ''not able'' or ''less than'' because of things like this and I say this as an African American.

 

[UTsksk]

One of my sociology professor told us that the term Latino is preferred over Hispanic by Latinos.

Hmm...didn't know that there was a favoritism for Latino. From where I'm from, we rarely hear people use "Latino" and I live in an area that's over 80% Hispanic. Good to know. Thanks.

 

[Simplify]

I want results not excuses. There are bad schools all over the country, even in the wealthiest of counties/parishes, etc.

 

[Simplify]

I agree completely. I like to believe that I am highly capable of accomplishing anything I put my mind to and this mind set has brought me much success thus far. I do understand that this field would like to see more black physicians, however, I think that it sends out the wrong message when the standards are lowered for certain people JUST BECAUSE OF THEIR RACE. I don't want the African American community to be viewed as ''not able'' or ''less than'' because of things like this and I say this as an African American.

You're honestly a hero to minorities. We need more people like you. I mean that in the most honest way.

 

[UTsksk]

I want results not excuses. There are bad schools all over the country, even in the wealthiest of counties/parishes, etc.

You might be waiting for a while there. In the end, the people that can handle medical school will get in and if someone who can't happens to get past admissions, they'll be weeded out through the rigors of class.

 

[Simplify]

You might be waiting for a while there. In the end, the people that can handle medical school will get in and if someone who can't happens to get past admissions, they'll be weeded out through the rigors of class.

There are a lot of people who have been through tough times and skin color has nothing to do with it. Some people get through it and some people make excuses about it. Admissions committees may grant leniency to people who fail to meet standards of admission, but it is unethical. Who would pass a more qualified candidate for someone who meets a skin color or other "disadvantaged" criteria? It is unfortunate that the Supreme Court stopped short of calling Affirmative Action illegal, but I have no doubt that it is coming soon. It is also unfortunate that many rational persons still think reverse discrimination is acceptable.

 

[KingstonPre]

I promise I am not a troll. I've been a long time reader. I just wanted to know more about when and why medical schools created the URM program and what everyone on SDN thinks about it, philosophically. This should be the best place for discourse on this topic since so many people on SDN are currently involved in the process.

Spray on some brown bodypaint, and go to any inner-city in America. Report back on how much of an "advantage" you have compared to everyone else