URMs and MD/PhD Applicant Pool

[MD2B in 2010]

Whats up peeps,

I was just wondering if any of you have any information regarding the minority MD/PhD applicant pool to MSTP programs as such. There is a plethora of data to show applicant, interview, and matriculate data for individuals of all races and genders for the MD-only pool, but I was curious what the data looked like for URMs.

I am a URM that anticipates to apply for many of the MD/PhD programs and was just trying to get a gauge as to how many underrepresented minorities apply this route and what the applicant pool looks like. In my school I appear to be like the only minority anxious in pursuing this goal due to my overwhelming and great research experiences.

Also if any of you are URMs yourself or anyone for that matter, can comment on the diversity that you all perceived at the respective tours and venues (medical universities) you have visited it would be really appreciated. I am currently the only black male research assistant in a top tier national research facility, but still feel very accepted and love the familial atmosphere and would like this to hopefully continue in my distant education.

Thanks in advance and good luck to you guys.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Ok2Panic]

Whats up peeps,

I was just wondering if any of you have any information regarding the minority MD/PhD applicant pool to MSTP programs as such. There is a plethora of data to show applicant, interview, and matriculate data for individuals of all races and genders for the MD-only pool, but I was curious what the data looked like for URMs.

I am a URM that anticipates to apply for many of the MD/PhD programs and was just trying to get a gauge as to how many underrepresented minorities apply this route and what the applicant pool looks like. In my school I appear to be like the only minority anxious in pursuing this goal due to my overwhelming and great research experiences.

Also if any of you are URMs yourself or anyone for that matter, can comment on the diversity that you all perceived at the respective tours and venues (medical universities) you have visited it would be really appreciated. I am currently the only black male research assistant in a top tier national research facility, but still feel very accepted and love the familial atmosphere and would like this to hopefully continue in my distant education.

Thanks in advance and good luck to you guys.

Hey there! I'm a URM applicant applying for 2010. I'm not necessarily the best qualified to answer your questions, but I figured I would show some support!

Also, recently I was at a conference in Orlando (the Annual Biomedical Research Conference for Minority Students), and it seemed like a lot of the recruitment events/efforts were definitely geared towards minority students applying for MD/PhDs (moreso than towards students going for straight PhDs it seemed at times). Of course, the level of recruitment geared at said population doesn't translate to what the applicant pool is actually going to look like, but I figured I would offer at least a bit of marginally relevant anecdotal evidence.

Cheers~

 

[gstrub]

This is just from my experience...please don't take it the wrong way. I am on the admissions committee in my program and thus have some perspective.

A qualified URM would be highly sought at any program that makes it a specific goal to recruit URMs. I don't know how many programs make that a priority. However, at my program, we have specifically sought URMs to fill interview spots. I think this has to do with reporting to the NIH with regards to how many URMs receive interviews, but could be wrong, as it is never explicitly stated.

So if you are qualified (32+MCAT, 3.6+GPA, solid research, great LORs), you should have no problem landing interviews. And just like any other candidate, if you can land an interview, it's entirely in your hands whether you are accepted. Speak eloquently about your hypotheses, defend your scientific approaches, communicate your desire to pursue academic medicine, and show some character and likability and you are in.

You will have some advantages in the application process as I have hinted...you may land an interview with sub-par stats (last year I interviewed a 24 MCAT...not accepted, but it makes my point). Whether this should be acceptable is a discussion for the SP forum. I think (I have no reliable data to support this claim other than observation) that URMs are even more "UR" in MD/PhD programs. So your observation that you are the only URM you know pursuing this field is not surprising to me. If accepted, you may be the only African American in your class. I suspect if you are competitive for MD/PhD you may already be used to this. In addition you can expect to have the same positive experience you described in your post despite this fact...it is a very accepting, if small, community of peers.

So if you are asking about admissions, you will be at an advantage, all else being equal. If you are asking about environment, I suppose this is program dependent, but I suspect that if you have the personality to have been successful this far, you will be happy and fit in with any program.
-G

 

[Vader]

The percentage of URMs in MD/PhD programs in lower even than the percentage in the general medical school student population. In particular, NIH-funded MSTP programs actively recruit URMs as a result of federal law and their own interest in having a diverse student population.

In terms of program support, I would look at places that have a good track record with diversity. My school, for example, (UCSF) has one of the highest percentage of URMs of any U.S. medical school and a large degree of institutional support for diversity. San Francisco is obviously an extremely diverse city and one of the most tolerant. However, there are also many other places that are diverse and many that feel strongly that their program would be enhanced by greater diversity.

The opportunities will certainly be there, provided you present a qualified application with unique experiences. As others have mentioned, you still need a strong application detailing your commitment to the MD/PhD pathway and excellent recommendations from people who can judge your potential.

Good luck!

 

[Doctor&Geek]

I think this has to do with reporting to the NIH with regards to how many URMs receive interviews, but could be wrong, as it is never explicitly stated.

Judgement on NIH-funded slots is in part dependent on ability to attract URM applicants and matriculants.

 

[MD2B in 2010]

Hey there! I'm a URM applicant applying for 2010. I'm not necessarily the best qualified to answer your questions, but I figured I would show some support!

Also, recently I was at a conference in Orlando (the Annual Biomedical Research Conference for Minority Students), and it seemed like a lot of the recruitment events/efforts were definitely geared towards minority students applying for MD/PhDs (moreso than towards students going for straight PhDs it seemed at times). Of course, the level of recruitment geared at said population doesn't translate to what the applicant pool is actually going to look like, but I figured I would offer at least a bit of marginally relevant anecdotal evidence.

Cheers~

The support is given right back to ya as well. I was also at that conference and had the opportunity to present my work by way of a poster presentation. It was very uplifiting to see many people committed to academic medicine and other research endeavors and I hope that it will show in the several research facilities and instituitions.

To gstrub and Vader I really appreciate the commentary you all provided on the situation. You all being MD/PhD students are looking at the picture from a much clearer standpoint allowing individuals like myself and Ok2panic get better informed on the situation. Do you all know of any schools in specific other than San Francisco mentioned prior? Also, what if I do not have multiple research experiences, but have been in a lab for roughly 2.5-3 years while still in college? Does diversity look better than consistency? Also are publications essential or just icing on the cake, because I do not see myself achieving this? However, I have won many awards at the several conferences I have presented at.

Thanks guys.

 

[gstrub]

The support is given right back to ya as well. I was also at that conference and had the opportunity to present my work by way of a poster presentation. It was very uplifiting to see many people committed to academic medicine and other research endeavors and I hope that it will show in the several research facilities and instituitions.

To gstrub and Vader I really appreciate the commentary you all provided on the situation. You all being MD/PhD students are looking at the picture from a much clearer standpoint allowing individuals like myself and Ok2panic get better informed on the situation. Do you all know of any schools in specific other than San Francisco mentioned prior? Also, what if I do not have multiple research experiences, but have been in a lab for roughly 2.5-3 years while still in college? Does diversity look better than consistency? Also are publications essential or just icing on the cake, because I do not see myself achieving this? However, I have won many awards at the several conferences I have presented at.

Thanks guys.

Neuronix has articulated the answers to you questions better than I can in other threads...just read through them. Briefly, you do NOT need a publication to get into a MD/PhD program. 2.5-3 yrs research experience in one lab is usually better than moving around as it not only gives you perspective in pursuing one or two scientific questions and following up on them (rather than getting nowhere on multiple projects), but it gives you the opportunity to obtain a strong LOR from someone who can actually speak to your ability with more than a few months to judge you by.

As far as which schools like URM applicants, I think they all do.

Good luck,
G

 

[Neuronix]

Briefly, you do NOT need a publication to get into a MD/PhD program. 2.5-3 yrs research experience in one lab is usually better than moving around as it not only gives you perspective in pursuing one or two scientific questions and following up on them (rather than getting nowhere on multiple projects), but it gives you the opportunity to obtain a strong LOR from someone who can actually speak to your ability with more than a few months to judge you by.

As far as which schools like URM applicants, I think they all do.

I think you articulated that all quite well and I agree. I had a long discussion some time back with a consultant who actually goes to mid-tier to upper-tier professional programs to educate them on minority recruiting (i.e. how to find more URM students). This has spawned a lot of the special URM-only recruitment that one sees at these programs.

Well-qualified URM applicants (i.e. average accepted to above average stats, 3.8ish, 36ish with decent research) are highly sought by MD/PhD programs. Because there are so few of these applicants, these URMs will tend to be at the biggest name, most competitive (i.e. desirable location as well) places, such as UCSF. Those programs never have too much problem getting diversity when they want it because everyone wants to go to those places, URM or not. This is a constant for all top-tier programs, whether that be law, residencies (i.e. UCSF Radiology has no problems filling with 50% well qualified women), business, etc etc etc...

Mid-tier programs have to fight to try to get URMs. They also struggle with the question, how far down in GPA and MCAT will they go to get URM matriculants? Is this right and justified? Are they qualified enough to be successful? This is a very difficult topic to discuss with no right answer. I'm not posting this to start a debate, but just posing the questions and thought processes adcoms go through. For the URM student it may appear there are not as many URMs around and thus the program isn't interested in URMs, but I doubt this is true for any program. As mentioned, it benefits programs to take URM students on many levels. But don't get too confused. URM and diversity truly mean two different things... URM acceptance rates can be and are measured, while "diversity" is not.

Now I've asked about these topics from various adcoms and directors who would be in the know, and I can never get a straight answer. Is there a difference in accepted stats between URM and non-URM applicants? Is a URM from a wealthy background more saught after than a non-URM from a disadvantaged/unique background? I think I have a good sense of these answers, being myself a non-URM from an extremely different and disadvantaged background growing up in a majority URM area. But, these are not the questions anyone in a high level positions wants to seriously answer given the loaded nature of the situation.

The take home message is: URMs are highly sought in MD/PhD programs because the percentage of URMs is lower than for MD OR PhD programs alone (in which they're already underrpresented!). Nobody wants this. If you are around the national averages for matriculants (3.8ish, 36ish, 2+ years experience) you will do very well. If not, it's hard to say.

 

[GliaGirl]

So here is something that I have been wondering for a while. URM = black, hispanic, native american. But does URM = women as well in this case? I noticed that at interviews, there were almost always more women than men. Is that because more women apply, or they try to interview more women in order to fill the spots?

Does being female help in any way? Or is that one of those unknowns...

 

[Ariodant]

From what I know, UCSF MSTP isn't particularly known for accepting URM with leniency on stats. Most students are pretty traditional, both in terms of ethnicity and life experience, not to mention above-average stats. But the flavor of students changes from year to year, so take my limited experience with a grain of salt (more if not worried about HTN).

The talks about the diversity of the UCSF medschool, however, are very true.

 

[gstrub]

Mid-tier programs have to fight to try to get URMs. They also struggle with the question, how far down in GPA and MCAT will they go to get URM matriculants? Is this right and justified? Are they qualified enough to be successful? This is a very difficult topic to discuss with no right answer.

If you are around the national averages for matriculants (3.8ish, 36ish, 2+ years experience) you will do very well. If not, it's hard to say.

I will say from experience, at least in my program, you can expect interviews with FAR less stellar statistics than 3.8 36. It has been a bone of contention when it comes to the faculty members interviewing candidates. Unfortunately, these students often get interviewed but then chewed up and spit out by the faculty interviewers who can clearly see a sub-par applicant only being interviewed for obvious reasons.

 

[Doctor&Geek]

Does being female help in any way? Or is that one of those unknowns...

Yes.

 

[Ariodant]

So here is something that I have been wondering for a while. URM = black, hispanic, native american. But does URM = women as well in this case? I noticed that at interviews, there were almost always more women than men. Is that because more women apply, or they try to interview more women in order to fill the spots?

Does being female help in any way? Or is that one of those unknowns...

In most MSTP programs there are more men than women. Also the diversity of interviewees doesn't necessarily translate into equal diversity of acceptated students/matriculants. Are they just there to fill the spots? Are they less competitive? Stochastic drift? No one knows.

 

[gstrub]

So here is something that I have been wondering for a while. URM = black, hispanic, native american. But does URM = women as well in this case? I noticed that at interviews, there were almost always more women than men. Is that because more women apply, or they try to interview more women in order to fill the spots?

Does being female help in any way? Or is that one of those unknowns...

I have no idea. As far as your application goes, you are not classified as URM. Whether programs go out of their way to recruit more women...I can't say. I will say that in my program the % of women has increased in every class since I started (and coincidentally since we have been applying for MSTP status) but whether the two are related I have no idea.

 

[PerpetualPupil]

This is the 21st century...it always amazes me how much of a taboo subject these things are in our society. Why would it matter to an adcom about what applicants look like or where they come from, just as long as they are qualified for the task at hand?

 

[Neuronix]

This is the 21st century...it always amazes me how much of a taboo subject these things are in our society. Why would it matter to an adcom about what applicants look like or where they come from, just as long as they are qualified for the task at hand?

I will ask that these sorts of discussions do not take over this thread. My goal on this matter is to discuss how things are, not how they should be. This topic has been rehashed over and over and over and over again, and thus has been pretty much banned from the usual medical forum threads.

 

[PerpetualPupil]

My goal on this matter is to discuss how things are, not how they should be.

Kind of hard to separate the two, though. Surely the regulars around this corner of SDN are mature enough to hold a constructive discussion. But, I do see your point that it is prone to spiral out of control in the general SDN realm...

 

[gstrub]

I will ask that these sorts of discussions do not take over this thread. My goal on this matter is to discuss how things are, not how they should be. This topic has been rehashed over and over and over and over again, and thus has been pretty much banned from the usual medical forum threads.

 

[gbwillner]

Well-qualified URM applicants (i.e. average accepted to above average stats, 3.8ish, 36ish with decent research) are highly sought by MD/PhD programs. Because there are so few of these applicants, these URMs will tend to be at the biggest name, most competitive (i.e. desirable location as well) places, such as UCSF. .. If you are around the national averages for matriculants (3.8ish, 36ish, 2+ years experience) you will do very well. If not, it's hard to say.

From my experience, URM + MSTP = golden ticket. The numbers you cite for national averages are probably not so important for URMs. I would wager that URM + MCAT of 29+ and good grades has a good shot of going anywhere they want.

 

[Neuronix]

From my experience, URM + MSTP = golden ticket. The numbers you cite for national averages are probably not so important for URMs. I would wager that URM + MCAT of 29+ and good grades has a good shot of going anywhere they want.

Hard to say... There's no data and nobody who has the inside knowledge to know will actual answer me on this point. You may be right. I hope someone will comment definitively.

 

[Hard24Get]

From my experience, URM + MSTP = golden ticket. The numbers you cite for national averages are probably not so important for URMs. I would wager that URM + MCAT of 29+ and good grades has a good shot of going anywhere they want.

I disagree. My MCAT was higher than that and I didn't get an MD-PhD slot at every place I applied to (though i did get MD spots at all, to be honest). I matriculated in 2000, and things have become more competitive, but at the time I was average to slightly above average for the straight MD programs (MD-PhD programs often don't supply stats). I had excellent LORs, one from 2.5yrs of research with a mentor who loved me, and most places drilled the hell out of me. Sure didn't feel like a golden ticket, though I'm sure I had a great advantage. I don't know what cut-offs they use, but I know the program still had high expectations of all applicants, minority or not.

I was one of about 8/>100 minorities in the entire MD-PhD program and the only minority in my class. But whatever, at this stage you should be used to it. There are very few minorities in medicine, less in academia, and even less still that are MD-PhDs. So you are rare and will be cherished IF you know what the hell you're doing. The program I went to (Penn) was very supportive of all their students and also had an excellent minority office, but of course the few minorities had to be trotted out often for recruitment purposes. I think Penn is the best MD-PhD program in the galaxy, but I may have been brainwashed .

Still not sure how I feel about affirmative action. I'd rather have the root of the problem addressed, and it is hard feeling like everyone views me as having gotten a "golden ticket" despite working so hard for so long.

 

[collinsc]

I'm glad someone started this thread because I was curious also being an URM myself. kudos!

 

[Slothrop]

I’m an URM at a top-ten MSTP. I don’t have definitive data; I won’t speculate or tell second-hand anecdotes; I’ll share some personal experiences. My stats as an applicant were competitive but not outstanding: solid undergrad, 3.7+ GPA, mid-30s MCAT, a couple of publications in decent journals, and what I was told good LORs. I interviewed at the big-name schools, and I was rejected or waitlisted multiple times: the URM + 29+ MCAT + decent grades != acceptances everywhere, for me, at least.

A few schools provided outreach events during interviews, where other URM applicants had a meal or snack with other URM students or faculty. I didn’t matriculate to one of these schools, so I cannot comment on the continuity of the outreach. At my school, the MSTP students are diverse (in the multicultural way), the medical students are even more diverse, and URM are still underrepresented.

 

[MD2B in 2010]

This is all very great information that is ultimately pointing me in the right direction on how to go about applying in this process and addressing these concerns that I have. I appreciate the fact that many of you all at least take the time to recognize the disparity and hopefully speak of it at your respective institutions, because ultimately, you all are the type of people I would like to crowd myself around in the future. Keep the advice and opinions coming.

 

[gbwillner]

Still not sure how I feel about affirmative action. I'd rather have the root of the problem addressed, and it is hard feeling like everyone views me as having gotten a "golden ticket" despite working so hard for so long.

I wouldn't worry about it. I'm sure that any resentment anyone may have felt probably faded a few weeks after matriculating into med school. Being URM doesn't get you to do well on exams or get your experiments to work. Yeah, maybe you have more institutionalized support, but ultimately everyone will respect you for your accomplishments.

But anyway, my point stands, I think, if you state that you had fairly average stats but got interviews at all the top places and were disappointed you got a few rejections. Most "good" applicants will only get 1-2 acceptances total. I never said you were guaranteed anything, but that you've got a good shot anywhere.

 

[Hard24Get]

I wouldn't worry about it. I'm sure that any resentment anyone may have felt probably faded a few weeks after matriculating into med school. Being URM doesn't get you to do well on exams or get your experiments to work. Yeah, maybe you have more institutionalized support, but ultimately everyone will respect you for your accomplishments.

But anyway, my point stands, I think, if you state that you had fairly average stats but got interviews at all the top places and were disappointed you got a few rejections. Most "good" applicants will only get 1-2 acceptances total. I never said you were guaranteed anything, but that you've got a good shot anywhere.

Agreed. Definitely not disappointed, though! And I suppose it's true, AA is of no help while doing experiments or in residency. Sometimes I wish my western blot or the cancer spreading in my patient's brain DID care I as black, but alas...