US medical students and spinals????

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Just out of curiosity....

How many of you out there who have or are rotating through an anesthesia elective go as far as putting in spinals/epidurals?....?? What's the norm? LMA's, tubes, peripheral lines, etc..? :confused:

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i can't say for the "norm" but here are the rough numbers of what i attempted at the VA. didn't get everything and was more successful at some than others.
8-9 spinals
15 or so endotrach intubations
1 double-lumen intubation
1 fiberoptic nasal intubation
3-4 LMAs
5 A-lines
60+ peripheral IVs

a lot depends on how aggressive you are and how comfortable the resident/attending you're with is with you and your abilities (as well as their own).
 
the one thing i can recommend in general is to start doing as many procedures as possible starting with your 3rd year of rotations....

if you are on call in the hospital and call is going slowly, or if the residents send you to go "studying" --- my recommendation is to head down to the ER and ask an older nurse to teach you IV lines/blood draws on good candidates in the ER... you'd be surprised how quickly you start feeling confident... let your name be known on the floors so that the nurses can let you do the sticks and lines as well (they would much rather you do it than they would)... be very aggressive with every procedure on the book!!! bargain with your residents to let you do chest tubes, lines, lumbar taps.... do ICU rotations during 4th year - ideally your last two months of SURGICAL ICU so that when internship starts you will hit the ground running.

In the big scheme of things it doesn't really matter how many epidurals/LMA/endotracheals/fiberoptics you do by the time anesthesia residency starts, because you will RELEARN all of those techniques in a far better way than you can imagine... I thought I could intubate by the time residency started (especially since i was a paramedic prior to med school, and because i did over 30 intubations during 4th year) - and BOY was I wrong!!! I would however recommend focusing on peripheral IVs, blood draws, and CENTRAL lines!!!! those are the skills that will make you look good for both internship and residency!!!
 
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Tenesma,
have enjoyed your posts.

I, too, was a paramedic prior to med school. Although I am sure there are plenty of difficult intubations ahead of me and many I may never "get", I was still surprised at your statement.

Could you clarify what you meant by how you will learn to intubate as a resident? Is there some secret body of knowledge that will be taught or is it just doing 6-10/day instead of 1/week?

Thanks for the response!
 
I just finished 4 weeks of Pain Management. Here's what I logged:

Epidurals
Caudals 17
Lumbar 13
Cervicals 17
Thoracic 2

Facet blocks....4

SI Joint Inj.......7

Almost all of the above we fluroscopy-guided (maybe a handful of the caudals were done 'blind' d/t pt allergy to dye)

I also got to do 2 CT-guided celiac plexus blocks, a CT-guided psoas injection, and one very-supervised stellate ganglion block (scary!)

Oh yeah...got to do a ton of trigger point injections, a few ilioinguinal blocks, some hyalgan knee injections, and a few lumbar sympathetic blocks.

It goes without saying....the rotation was awesome...it'll probably never get any better than that as a student.
 
teufelhunden

where did you do your pain rotation??? sounds like a great experience!!!

Drdre

it is difficult to describe - you will see when you do your anesthesia residency. It is a combination of constant exposure, dealing with the hardest airways in the hospital (anesthesia gets called for all airways), and having people teach you who have been doing it for 30 years.... and i still surprise myself when I find myself learning new tricks (and i am in my last year :) )
the paramedics/respiratory therapists/surgical residents/EM residents who rotate through the OR every once in a while, will come with a swagger and boast that this is a refresher for them as they have done multiple intubations before.... they quickly, at the end of their time with me, have gotten to a whole new level...
 
Thanks for the reply Tenesma, and for being kind.

Sorry, didn't mean to sound cocky...

I've always wondered how many OETTs an MDA averages a week, esp. with LMAs and other modalities? What are typical numbers per week or by the end of residency?

Looking forward to learning more about airway, it's been a while since I was in the field.

Good luck with your last year!
 
average ETT insertions... hmmm some weeks I do 2 and some weeks I do 30.... so by end of residency I would guess the average resident would have placed over 1500 ETTs.
what is more important in my opinion though is how many airways were managed and the intricacies and decision making that go along with those... so i would say by end of residency you would have managed abotu 3000 (of which about 200-300 are emergent/trauma/burn/difficult airways).

but at the same time, remember that ETT insertion and airway management is but a small facet of anesthesia
 
Thx for the rapid reply.
No, I realize that intubations and airway management are but a small part of the specialty.

I had just always been interested in the quantity of tubes for an MDA as some sort of comparison. Just wanted to know at what number, you "went to the next level" as I was but a lowly EMT-P getting 1/wk if I was lucky!

Thanks again!
 
i think i got to the next level by my 6th month.... my colleagues and i were quite good by month 3, but at our 6th month we were pretty much independent running airways around the hospital: ie: going down to ED as a CA-1 (so PGY2 and a half) and tell the ER attending to step aside :)...
 
Thanks to all who replied to this post. Very informative...

"I also got to do 2 CT-guided celiac plexus blocks, a CT-guided psoas injection, and one very-supervised stellate ganglion block (scary!)".....

Hmmm.... I think I'll be switching my schedule a round a little. Good for you Teufelhunden!!

For those of you interested, here is what I clocked in during a 3 week GAS elective:

6 spinals
10+ endotrach intubations (including 1 non-reasuring ET C02 = accidental esophageal intubation...oops!)
15+ LMAs
1 A-line
too many peripheral IVs to count.

I'm dying to put in my first Central Line.... But no love as of yet... the closest I've been to doing anything like that is thermodilution in a swaned patient, but that was as complicated as tying my shoes. I know to be aggressive, but there is a fine line between aggressive and annoying..... any suggestions?
 
oh and i forgot to mention in my last post that the level of intubating experience is evident in the literature.... Almost all rates of esophageal intubations in the field, in the ER, on the floors or in the ORs are operator dependent. Depending on which paper you read, the esophageal intubation rate by ANESTHESIA in the emergent setting (ER, floors, Trauma, etc...) is 2 to 5%. HOWEVER, for ER doctors/Paramedics/some good respiratory therapists, the esophageal intubation rate in the same settings is 20-25% !!!!!! Now imagine what the intubation rate is for the rest of medical professionals based on their exposure...
 
I actually got to do a lot of intubating (25 or so), but not a whole lot else. Some PIV's, No a-line, centrals, or even lmas. I didn't even see an lma used. No epidurals either, purely a spectator on these. Oh well plenty of time to learn.
 
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Wow....

I'm seven months away from starting my CA-1 year, and I've never done a spinal/epidural/LP/central line/fiberoptic intubation etc., and have done a total of one a-line and one abg ever. That's after two electives in anesthesia plus multiple icu/floor months as an intern.

I sure hope they teach everything once I get there...
 
i presume that a lot of it depends on where you did your med school rotations and where you're doing your pgy-1 year.

e.g. i did 3 months of medicine, 2 months of surgery, 1 month of anesthesia, and 1 month of medicine sub-I all at our VA and felt i had a lot more hands-on, procedural experience for it. my roommate did most of his rotations at the university hospital and hasn't done as many procedures due to the slightly better ancillary staff. (i'm not trying to knock nurses in general but the VA nurses that i've worked with, outside of the unit/stepdown and the surgery floors, have not left the best impression in my mind)

and i think the first month at most anesthesia programs is to get everyone up to speed and to about the same level. or at least that's what they tell me at the interviews. :)
 
Tenesma-
Those cited %s above seem really high. I was surprised by how high all of them were. (MDA included) I know esophageal intubations are particularly easy in the face of the c-spined patient (thank God for macs!) but I thought the numbers still high. Do you have a reference for an article so I can read it?

Thanks again for all the info!
 
Katz SH, Falk JL. Misplaced endotracheal tubes by paramedics in an urban emergency medical services system.Ann Emerg Med. 2001 Jan;37(1):32-7. 25% of patients had pharyngeal or esophageal intubations, 17% had true esophageal intubations by paramedic.

Gauche, JAMA 2000. 17% had esophageal intubations by paramedics

Schwartz DE, Matthay MA, Cohen NH. Death and other complications of emergency airway management in critically ill adults. A prospective investigation of 297 tracheal intubations. Anesthesiology. 1995 Feb;82(2):367-76.

Kasper, C. Deem, S. Anesthesiology 1998. 5% were esophageal by anesthesia

Czinn, Anesthesiology 1995 6% emergent intubations were esophageal by anesthesia.

Sayre, M. Prehospital Disaster Medicine 1994. Medics unable to identify 27% of esophageal intubations, unable to intubate 52%

there are more studies out there - but bottom line in the emergent situation no matter how skilled the hands are, there is still a chance for mishap and possible horrible outcomes.
 
One of the comments mentioned frequently during my anesthesiology rotation was that while learning to intubate was important, my real goal was to be comfortable with bag-mask ventilations.

I thought it would be nice and easy, bag-mask. It's not, at least not if you want to do it well for an extended period of time.

BTW, was reading in some centers that surgery runs the airway in traumas. Now, I can understand EM working on the airway, but surgery? Isn't that like anesthesia opening the abdomen (i.e., looks easy, we've all done a few, etc)?
 
Tenesma-
Thanks for all the citations. I appreciate the effort.
 
Gator,
Have always heard the same. BVM is key to save yourself (and the patient) if you can't intubate, especially when you've paralyzed someone! Sure helps to have big hands for baggin'.

Have had the same question about trauma doing airway. That seems like an old tradition that must date back to before EM. Few, if anyone, would argue that EM is better at intubations than gas but they are uniquely qualified to run the trauma AND intubate. I can't imagine g surg residents having more tubes than an EM resident.

Is this a dying tradition in hospitals where there is EM? Tenesma, anyone?
 
I should clarify my thoughts on trauma airway:

Ideally, anesthesiology would manage the airway for trauma, and asist in any resus to provide continuity to the OR as needed. I believe this is how it is done at places such as Crowley Shock-Trauma in Maryland and Jackson Memorial in Miami.

However, not every center has the anesthesia support, and I do believe it is important for EM to get some airway management experience. Hence, the EM-managed trauma airway. I figure they at least have more experience than the surgery residents.
 
i agree with you that EM should learn proper airway management... but from my experience they think they are great at it, when in reality their technique is horrible and barbaric -- I truly think that EM should spend more time training their residents with a few months of anesthesia airway training - what a difference it would make... at my institution we rarely see EM residents as they are trained by EM attendings in the trauma bay... and when stuff hits the fan, we always end up having to go down there and bail them out...

so if they could get better airway training they would benefit as would the patients... in the meantime they are totally convinced that their training is sufficient (which i don't think it is)
 
In the big scheme of things it doesn't really matter how many epidurals/LMA/endotracheals/fiberoptics you do by the time anesthesia residency starts, because you will RELEARN all of those techniques in a far better way than you can imagine... I thought I could intubate by the time residency started (especially since i was a paramedic prior to med school, and because i did over 30 intubations during 4th year)

tenesma is absolutely right. I always thought I was pretty good in the field, but my technique was never that good. I almost always managed to stick the tough ones though. In the field you are in charge so you can do it any way you want and you are always under the gun. No attending is telling you how to do things. That is one of the things that is frustrating when you make the transition to med school and then residency. But these people really know what they are talking about. I felt A LOT better about tubes after my second month in the OR. I realized how much I didn't know.
 
I spent a month doing anesthesia as part of my EM residency. It was a great experience -- especially since I was really only around to get airways -- so I would run around from room to room tubing paitients -- I got >100 tubes. I also got good experience using LMAs for the short procedures. A lot of pediatric tubes as well. The thing I was struck by was how every anesthesiologist had their own way of intubating paitients (Miller v Mac, Lidocaine v Non, Stylet v. Just tube, etc.)

Luckily, I did my anesthesia month early in my residency. There's something to be said about learning in a controlled situation. (Dentures are out / Patient jaw is still intact / Mouth isn't full of blood / No C-spine precaution/etc) Once my month was finished I felt fairly confident in my intubation skills, but I'm still very nervous because the patients I see are usually crashing (i.e. not a controlled setting) when I'm tubing them (for some reason they're all obese and have short necks and they c-spine precautions). My favorite is when the patient has ACE angioedema and his/her tongue takes up the whole mouth. I'm just glad that we have a fiberoptic scope (which I learned how to use during anesthesia) in the department.

Anyway, I guess I'm just trying to say, I'm glad that I had some airway education from anesthesiologists -- I think EM folks can learn a lot from the lessons that anesthesiologists have dealt with. I also feel that the emergent airway is still the realm of emergency medicine as this is what we're experts in by necessity (some hospitals, the ER doc is the only airway person at night). I'm glad that I got to learn good airway technique in the OR setting before doing all of my ER intubations.
 
jawurheemd:

while i am glad that you learned so much during your month of residency, I disagree with you about emergency airways being in the realm of emergency medicine... while EM provides the setting for emergent airways, emergent airways are still ours :) just because there is only one ER doc on call for airway responsibilities in the hospital, doesn't necessarily mean he is the best...

if you look at the literature that point is supported... if you can't get an emergency airway and you have the choice between anesthesia and EM taking over for you, who would you choose?
i can't tell you how many airways i took over from an EM attending by my 5th month of anesthesia residency... it isn't even comparable.
 
I think that by definition the emergent airway falls into the realm of emergency medicine because the EM physician is going to be faced with the patient first when they come into the emergency room. As you know, airway comes first. Anesthesia is often to as a lifestyle specialty because of the more regular hours, more time off, etc. So anesthesia isn't always readily available at many hospitals. I'm not saying that the emergent airway doesn't fall in the realm of anesthesia as well -- after all, all of the codes on the floor or in the unit at our hospital are tubed by anesthesia. The patients in the emergency room are ours -- that includes the traumas, the cardiac arrests, burn patients, respiratory failure, etc.

Now in terms of literature -- the references you cite are regarding mostly paramedic intubations -- paramedic success rate is going to be much worse for many reasons -- field intubations are by definition done in an uncontrolled environment; paramedics don't have access (oftentimes) to RSI as an adjunct; paramedics don't intubate on a daily basis; etc. However, it seems that you are trying to equate paramedics to emergency medicine physicians who are residency trained in emergency medicine. Probably more relevant studies regarding emergency department intubations come out of NEAR (National Emergency Airway Registry) -- the definitive registry looking at this specific issue. (http://www.near.edu) The registry demonstrates an overall success rate of 99% for RSI in more than 4,000 patients. The concern is that 1% -- luckily, most of these folks can be bagged. I'm also glad to have LMAs as a backup. I've also done crikes, used lighted stylets, used the fiberoptic -- I haven't used, but I'm excited about some products that are out there like the glide scope (http://www.saturnbiomedical.com/home.htm), the shikani seeking stylet, intubating LMAs.

In terms of intubations, I feel like they're pretty easy to do in the average patient who you can prepare for -- what makes them hard is the situation, the environment, the thick/short neck, the blood gushing out of their mouth, the transected trachea, the missing lower jaw, etc. While I admit that I would probably rather have anesthesia (perhaps Ovassapian) intubate me, if I have a burn injury to my cords, an expanding neck hematoma, respiratory arrest, ACE angioedema, etc. I would rather not wait for anesthesia to excuse themself from the OR find their way to the ER in order intubate me -- especially with the EM physician (hopefully Ron Walls) readily available -- just please give me lots of benzos.
 
In terms of evidence-based litereture -- Hot off the presses -- thought I would share.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Alternating day emergency medicine and anesthesia resident responsibility for management of the trauma airway

A study of laryngoscopy performance and intubation success

Richard M. Levitan, MD
Boaz Rosenblatt, MD
Evan M. Meiner, MD
Patrick M. Reilly, MD
Judd E. Hollander, MD

Study objective: We compare laryngoscopy performance and overall intubation success in trauma airways when primary airway management alternated between emergency medicine and anesthesia residents on an every-other-day basis.

Methods: Data on all trauma intubations during approximately 3 years were prospectively collected. Primary airway management was assigned to emergency department (ED) residents on even days and anesthesia residents on odd days. Emergency medicine residents intubated patients who arrived without notification or who needed immediate intubation before anesthesia arrived. The study was conducted in an inner-city, Level I trauma center with approximately 50,000 ED patients and 1,800 major trauma cases a year. Main outcomes were success or failure at laryngoscopy and the number of laryngoscopy attempts needed for intubation.

Results: Six hundred fifty-eight trauma patients were intubated during the study period. Laryngoscopy was successful in 654 of 656 cases. Two (0.3%) patients underwent cricothyrotomy after failed laryngoscopy, and 2 (0.3%) patients had awake nasal intubation without laryngoscopy. The specific number of laryngoscopy attempts was unknown in 6 cases (3 from each service), resulting in 650 cases for laryngoscopy performance analysis. Overall, 87% of patients were intubated on first attempt, and 3 or more attempts occurred in 2.9% of patients. Laryngoscopy performance by service (broken down by 1, 2, and 3 attempts) was as follows: emergency medicine 86.4%, 11%, and 2.6% versus anesthesia 89.7%, 6.7%, and 3.6%. Analysis by service was done by using Wilcoxon Mann-Whitney testing (P=.225).

Conclusion: There were no differences in laryngoscopy performance and intubation success in trauma airways managed on an every-other-day basis by emergency medicine versus anesthesia residents.

[Ann Emerg Med. 2004;43:48-53.]
 
jawurheemd - thank you for the article - a few issues with the study

there is no comparison in time from loss of airway to successful intubation, there is no comparison evaluating intubation associated injuries/damage, there is no comparison between morbidity associated with intubation (extent of hypoxia, cardiac instability from induction or peri-laryngoscopy), etc... these concerns are also cited in the study

the anesthesia residents had a higher percentage of blunt trauma patients (63% vs 51.5%) and therefore more of their patients were cervical-collar immobilized which would make for a more difficult intubation - and yet the anesthesia residents were successful in 194/194 intubations!

and the end of the study alludes to a far largery study on over 8000 intubations in the OR which show that the number of "difficult" airways are statistically similar when comparing OR and ER.

I think Levitan has established quite a name for himself in the field of emergency airway management - but i don't know what i am supposed to do with the information from this study: when the ER can't intubate they call Anesthesia, when Anesthesia can't intubate we call Surgery and not the ER...
 
Originally posted by Tenesma
when the ER can't intubate they call Anesthesia, when Anesthesia can't intubate we call Surgery and not the ER...

Truly one of the best posts on this thread...
Nuff said:p
 
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