Quantcast

US vs. Caribbean

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

simbalimba

Junior Member
10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2005
Messages
120
Reaction score
0

Members don't see this ad.
Hello everyone,

I am new to this forum. I am currently a sophmore in my 2nd semester of college in the US. Lately I have been thinking very much of leaving to go to the caribbean for med school. There were a few things I wanted to know first before I made my decision. a) what the are pros and cons to going there as opposed to staying in the US? b) How much money does it cost to go there? c) what are the best schools in the caribbean? d) What are the pereqs to going there? The biggest reason I want to leave to go there is because I want to save a few years of my life. I know that in the end after practicing medicine for 35 years it wont matter, but I would still like to enjoy at least some of my 20s. Also how are the living conditions generally down there? I have heard that you can leave to go to the caribbeans as early as right after high school. Just wanted to know what everyone had to say on this, thanks.
 

tmudi

Junior Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2004
Messages
19
Reaction score
0
There are 3 good schools, SGU, Ross and Saba. all needs 4yr college. and same premed req of US. you need MCat also.


simbalimba said:
Hello everyone,

I am new to this forum. I am currently a sophmore in my 2nd semester of college in the US. Lately I have been thinking very much of leaving to go to the caribbean for med school. There were a few things I wanted to know first before I made my decision. a) what the are pros and cons to going there as opposed to staying in the US? b) How much money does it cost to go there? c) what are the best schools in the caribbean? d) What are the pereqs to going there? The biggest reason I want to leave to go there is because I want to save a few years of my life. I know that in the end after practicing medicine for 35 years it wont matter, but I would still like to enjoy at least some of my 20s. Also how are the living conditions generally down there? I have heard that you can leave to go to the caribbeans as early as right after high school. Just wanted to know what everyone had to say on this, thanks.
 

fpdoc06

Junior Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2006
Messages
19
Reaction score
0
1.) Medical University of the Americas- Nevis (www.mua.edu)

2.) American University of the Caribbean (www.aucmed.edu)

these two and the three schools mentioned above are probably the only sufficient schools to consider off-shore.
good luck.
 

Leukocyte

Senior Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2003
Messages
1,581
Reaction score
31
simbalimba said:
The biggest reason I want to leave to go there is because I want to save a few years of my life. I know that in the end after practicing medicine for 35 years it wont matter, but I would still like to enjoy at least some of my 20s.
.

Would you live in the South Bronx or Harlem if you do not HAVE TO?
 

Leukocyte

Senior Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2003
Messages
1,581
Reaction score
31
bkpa2med said:

It is not my intention to be mean. I simply just wanted to illustrate a point.

-Off-shore schools are fine ONLY as a last resort.

Going to an off-shore school mainly to "save a few years" is not a good idea at all. Who knows what the future will bring (except God). Any US medical school should be you primary goal.

Good Luck.
 

fpdoc06

Junior Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2006
Messages
19
Reaction score
0
there's some truth to that....although your goal should be to stay here in the states, there's also folks that "fell through the cracks" and had to go overseas. and i mean well-qualified applicants (i know, i was one of them). this is a very complex issue, especially when it comes to citizen status. being a US citizen, going over seas for medical school, and starting residency this July, i know that it can be a difficult road. unfortunately, there's only about %50 of USIMG that get residency each year. so before going overseas, think real hard. it's not impossible to get back for residency, just some barriers that you will need to over come. also dont forget the good ole' saying, "It's who you know NOT what you know!" (true, real true). certainly if you had no other choice and had to go off-shore do a little research and see which school produce good residency placements and eventually licensure. again, the 5 schools listed above are good off-shore schools. i would probably start researching those first and make a decision. good luck!
 

McGillGrad

Building Mind and Body
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2002
Messages
3,915
Reaction score
22
Is it just me or is this the third time in a week where someone has asked this question?
 

DoctorC++

[email protected]
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
41
Reaction score
0
simbalimba said:
Hello everyone,

I am new to this forum. I am currently a sophmore in my 2nd semester of college in the US. Lately I have been thinking very much of leaving to go to the caribbean for med school. There were a few things I wanted to know first before I made my decision. a) what the are pros and cons to going there as opposed to staying in the US? b) How much money does it cost to go there? c) what are the best schools in the caribbean? d) What are the pereqs to going there? The biggest reason I want to leave to go there is because I want to save a few years of my life. I know that in the end after practicing medicine for 35 years it wont matter, but I would still like to enjoy at least some of my 20s. Also how are the living conditions generally down there? I have heard that you can leave to go to the caribbeans as early as right after high school. Just wanted to know what everyone had to say on this, thanks.

This is my personal opinion.

~

I visited a medical school (Spartan) last august in the Caribbean. If you are SERIOUSLY considering Caribbean, then the 3 listed in the first reply would be your best bet. Research all aspects of it thoroughly especially residencies / board pass rates.

a)

Cons:
Lot of self-study
Poor education/facilities
Not many focused students
Lack of luxuries (we take a lot for granted, including running water)

Pros:
Unique experience
You CAN become a doctor

b) Tuition varies. Don't just pick the cheapest (aka Spartan).

c) SGU, ROSS, SABA

d) same as U.S. (MD) med. schools

Living conditions vary. Think 2nd/3rd world. If you've never been to a 2nd or a 3rd world, you might want to take a trip there before you finalize your decision.

Yes, some schools accept almost anyone. I believe the top 3 mentioned above are competitive. I did run into a few high school grads at Spartan. Not sure about other schools.

I am 26. I also thought about the Caribbean option. I thought about it for months and I really wanted to go just because it would've saved me about 2 years of my life. Then again, I thought about the fact that I want to be a GOOD doctor. And that can only happen if I have a GOOD education. I also wanted to be close to family so that also affected my decision.

For me, it wasn't worth it. I even took a trip to St. Lucia. It's a beautiful island. You can become a doctor. But you are also going to reduce your chances of becoming a doctor. I don't think you should let the time/age factor bother you. If you really want to be a good doctor, you might think about using that extra time before you enter medical school to work at a local hospital/clinic and even volunteer.

Best of luck to you!
 

billydoc

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2005
Messages
555
Reaction score
1
Hey DoctorC++!
I'm also struggling with the decision of going back to the Caribbean. I went to ROSS a couple of years back, but got sick, and had to drop it. I still have my acceptance to 3 carib schools (all reputable in the sense of Carib schools). I see you've mentioned you are 26... but if you were 36 with the family, and other responsibilities, would you still consider going Carib (to save time), or just keep trying in U.S (which I never did)?

Thanks
 

frenchie

Junior Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2003
Messages
31
Reaction score
0
DoctorC++ said:
Then again, I thought about the fact that I want to be a GOOD doctor. And that can only happen if I have a GOOD education. QUOTE]

I think this is a serious misrepresentation of what you can find in the Caribbean. GOOD is possible there too...your other reasons for avoiding the Caribbean are certainly valid, but this one is a bit much.
 

DoctorC++

[email protected]
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
41
Reaction score
0
If I was 36 and with a family... Well, I can't really answer that question. If I couldn't rotate in my hometown or do residency here, I wouldn't do it. That's just too many years away from the family.

Okay, let me rephrase my "GOOD" sentence. I believe the U.S. has better education than the Caribbean. That doesn't mean that Caribbean schools are bad or don't produce "good" doctors. Sorry if that phrase was misleading.

I know a few doctors that were in the Caribbean. They are what I would consider good doctors. I also know that they had to work their butts off - more than they would have if they were in the U.S.

U.S. or outside of the U.S. -> Either way, you are going to have to work hard. I just feel you will skip some extra work if you stay in the U.S.

Going to the Caribbean is not a bad option. I just feel it should be the LAST option. Please do talk to Caribbean grads and doctors even that at from the Caribbean. Ask them about their experiences. Contact those schools and see if you can get information about their graduates... there's a lot you can do to try and get a better picture.
 

stookie

Slick Nasty
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2005
Messages
168
Reaction score
0
SMU is also a decent school. They are not Cali approved and you can't get licensed in CA,TX??, IN, and KS.

The good thing about SMU is that it's in the grad cayman, and many people say it's like living in south florida. The bad thing: NO CA approval and cost of living.
 
Members don't see this ad :)

julie29524

Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2006
Messages
78
Reaction score
5
- I seriously do not know anyone that really wanted to go to a Caribbean medical school, it is a totally last resort thing because no acceptances in US, and no time to re-apply to US.

- US schools gives you a much better education than any caribbean schools. I've heard that the reason the Caribbean schools can tell students that they have high passing USMLE rates, is because unless they think you are ready for it, they don't let you take it. So some Caribbean school students end up taking 5 or 6 years to get their MD.

- you can't go to medical school after high school, you have to get a college degree first. Remember medical school is a doctorate program, and a doctorate can only follow undergrad or a masters degree.



simbalimba said:
Hello everyone,

I am new to this forum. I am currently a sophmore in my 2nd semester of college in the US. Lately I have been thinking very much of leaving to go to the caribbean for med school. There were a few things I wanted to know first before I made my decision. a) what the are pros and cons to going there as opposed to staying in the US? b) How much money does it cost to go there? c) what are the best schools in the caribbean? d) What are the pereqs to going there? The biggest reason I want to leave to go there is because I want to save a few years of my life. I know that in the end after practicing medicine for 35 years it wont matter, but I would still like to enjoy at least some of my 20s. Also how are the living conditions generally down there? I have heard that you can leave to go to the caribbeans as early as right after high school. Just wanted to know what everyone had to say on this, thanks.
 

DoctorC++

[email protected]
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
41
Reaction score
0
julie29524 said:
you can't go to medical school after high school, you have to get a college degree first. Remember medical school is a doctorate program, and a doctorate can only follow undergrad or a masters degree.

I visited a medical school in the Caribbean that had at least 1 high-school graduate. I know of several others that have not completed their pre-med requirements and will never finish them. They are already doing their first 2 years of basic sciences. After they start clinicals and take their boards, nobody will ever question their pre-med courses.

This is not true for all Caribbean schools, but it is happening in at least one school. I tried to contact the school about this, but no response.
 
M

MSc44

DoctorC++ said:
I visited a medical school in the Caribbean that had at least 1 high-school graduate. I know of several others that have not completed their pre-med requirements and will never finish them. They are already doing their first 2 years of basic sciences. After they start clinicals and take their boards, nobody will ever question their pre-med courses.

This is not true for all Caribbean schools, but it is happening in at least one school. I tried to contact the school about this, but no response.
not at all true i remember for my father to obtain an internship a requirement was organic chemistry including aromatics this was at Mt siani.....i know people who did the pre reques and then went to foreign countries or went out of HS to 7 year programs in europe problem is if u dont pass USMLE .........and come back to the US your MD degree is useless and your stuck not having a BS to fall back on i know people who this happened too
 

bulletproof

some dude...
10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2005
Messages
429
Reaction score
1
julie29524 said:
- I seriously do not know anyone that really wanted to go to a Caribbean medical school, it is a totally last resort thing because no acceptances in US, and no time to re-apply to US.

- US schools gives you a much better education than any caribbean schools. I've heard that the reason the Caribbean schools can tell students that they have high passing USMLE rates, is because unless they think you are ready for it, they don't let you take it. So some Caribbean school students end up taking 5 or 6 years to get their MD.

- you can't go to medical school after high school, you have to get a college degree first. Remember medical school is a doctorate program, and a doctorate can only follow undergrad or a masters degree.
Technically that is incorrect. Most medical schools require a minimum of 90 credits to include the premed reqs ( orgo, bio etc.) . It is not an absolute requirement to have a bachelors degree in order to obtain an MD. Most candidates feel that in order to compete with applicants who have their bachelors degree, it would serve them well to obtain theirs in order to be competitive , but it is not absolutely required.
-Also, you can get a very good education at a caribbean school. I am not trying to suggest that they are in any way superior to any US school. I can only offer that at least in my circle of med school friends almost every last one of them have beaten the average USMLE step I score of 217. Furthermore, they are all doing quite well in clinicals. As I have mentioned once before I have already been invited for a prematch position at a hospital I rotated at. As with any endeavour in life you get out of it what you put in.
-Anyone serious about going the caribbean route should accept the following:
1. You will be working against the odds if you are hellbent on plastics , rad onc, derm, ortho. ( these are difficult to get even as as a US graduate)
2. You may face some discrimination from some programs on the residency interview trail.
3. You will be looked down upon by some elitists on this forum, in the hospital, and elsewhere in life, who feel that anything other than US med school training is inferior. Sad, but true
4. You can get an excellent education, do well on Boards, and go on to lead a productive life doing what you want to do, making excellent money in one of many fields ( IM, surgery, FP, anesthesia, radiology, PM & R , psych etc)
5. Living in the carib, away from your usual support systems can prove very difficult for some, so if you are seriously considering this route, try and enter the experiece well balanced mentally and assured of your reasons for undertaking this significant challenge.
Good luck to all in their decisions.
 

DoctorC++

[email protected]
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
41
Reaction score
0
I don't want to get off topic on this... and as I said, this is just one school that I personally know of (first-hand) that lets not having pre-med courses slide. -- "Technically" you need to have pre-med courses and also a degree, but sometimes 'dead presidents' speak better than transcripts.

Basically, Caribbean should be the last option. If you go there, go with the mindset that you will be successful. Don't worry about how you're going to look and how people are going to treat you. You will face a lot of hardships, but your degree will be a lot more meaningful in the end.

The question I ask some of the carib. students is, why not get try to get into U.S. med schools? I understand that there are many factors that influence your decision. But I personally would try for at least 2 years and if that wasn't working, then I would open up the option for Caribbean. And if you give up so easily (trying to get into U.S.), do you really think you will make it in the Carib?
 

ny skindoc

Senior Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2002
Messages
638
Reaction score
12
DoctorC++ said:
I don't want to get off topic on this... and as I said, this is just one school that I personally know of (first-hand) that lets not having pre-med courses slide. -- "Technically" you need to have pre-med courses and also a degree, but sometimes 'dead presidents' speak better than transcripts.

Basically, Caribbean should be the last option. If you go there, go with the mindset that you will be successful. Don't worry about how you're going to look and how people are going to treat you. You will face a lot of hardships, but your degree will be a lot more meaningful in the end.

The question I ask some of the carib. students is, why not get try to get into U.S. med schools? I understand that there are many factors that influence your decision. But I personally would try for at least 2 years and if that wasn't working, then I would open up the option for Caribbean. And if you give up so easily (trying to get into U.S.), do you really think you will make it in the Carib?
1-Some states have licensure requirements which involve completion of the basic pre med courses.You may need to attest to having completed these courses.There are potential issues with "letting them slide"
2-Many people who apply to Carib are nowhere in the ballpark of being competitive for US school ..So a second application cycle wont help.I agree anyone who is bordereline for entry to a US school should make every effort before going the alternative route.
 

bulletproof

some dude...
10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2005
Messages
429
Reaction score
1
DoctorC++ said:
I don't want to get off topic on this... and as I said, this is just one school that I personally know of (first-hand) that lets not having pre-med courses slide. -- "Technically" you need to have pre-med courses and also a degree, but sometimes 'dead presidents' speak better than transcripts.

Basically, Caribbean should be the last option. If you go there, go with the mindset that you will be successful. Don't worry about how you're going to look and how people are going to treat you. You will face a lot of hardships, but your degree will be a lot more meaningful in the end.

The question I ask some of the carib. students is, why not get try to get into U.S. med schools? I understand that there are many factors that influence your decision. But I personally would try for at least 2 years and if that wasn't working, then I would open up the option for Caribbean. And if you give up so easily (trying to get into U.S.), do you really think you will make it in the Carib?
To answer your question as to why some students do not feel like squandering two or more years in US med school applications, I can only speak to my own experience. Personally I did not feel like wasting two years when I was certain I had no interest in dermatology etc, and the precedent for a succesful med school career had been established by thousands before me. I was confident in my ability to succeed irrespective of my physical environment and was not insecure enough to falter before anyone who would question my degree. I currently rotate with US students in a major urban center, and do not feel in any way inferior either in my fund of knowledge, or in my academic background. People can not make you insecure in yourself. Only you can do that.
I absolutely agree that if you are uncertain what areas of medicine you are interested in ( and derm etc are possibilities for you) , and/or having the alleged "stigma" of a carib degree hanging over your head is a burden too cumbersome to endure, and/or you just have no desire to ever leave the US, then absolutely spend the two ( or more) years of your life trying to gain access to the US system. Without a doubt, reapply, rinse, repeat as necessary. However...I cannot help but wonder that if I followed that advice I would only be starting my med school career now ( I am currently half way through MSIII ...thank God!!!!) I will graduate next april with my MD. If I was offered entry to any US med school now, even with full waiver of my current debt, I would not repeat years 1 + 2 + step I for love nor money. To each their own, as they say. I only regret not having gone the carib. route when I was 21, instead of 23....I would currently be coming to the end of my intern year. Sometimes two years makes all the difference. Only the individual can decide that.
 

Leukocyte

Senior Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2003
Messages
1,581
Reaction score
31
This is my impression of what I consider important prerequisites for being a successful Carib student:

-Mature and self-relient

-Can focus and study even in the worst enviroments (and I do not mean the Carib Islands...Dominica is heaven compared to were I am living now in the US!!!)

-Has family in the US that can support him/her emotionally

-Is familiar with NYC, and the living situation in Brooklyn/Queens (Does not mind living like a rouch in a basement, and does not mind crowded cities).

-Does not need too much guidance or counciling

-Does not mind not matching in "surgery"

-Very flexable

-Knowns his/her priorities-STUDY...STUDY....STUDY

-Is aware of the LICENSURE requirements of the state in whitch he/she wants to practice in.

-Has a supportive wife/husband/boyfriend/girlfriend.


I am a MS4 who did not have some of these qualities....I made a big mistake going to the Carib.

Good Luck.
 

Taurus

Paul Revere of Medicine
15+ Year Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2004
Messages
3,199
Reaction score
610
You're just a freaking sophomore. If you sucked during your freshman year, just suck it up and kick some ass the rest of the way. You should try to get into US MD or DO program before going carib.

simbalimba said:
Hello everyone,

I am new to this forum. I am currently a sophmore in my 2nd semester of college in the US. Lately I have been thinking very much of leaving to go to the caribbean for med school. There were a few things I wanted to know first before I made my decision. a) what the are pros and cons to going there as opposed to staying in the US? b) How much money does it cost to go there? c) what are the best schools in the caribbean? d) What are the pereqs to going there? The biggest reason I want to leave to go there is because I want to save a few years of my life. I know that in the end after practicing medicine for 35 years it wont matter, but I would still like to enjoy at least some of my 20s. Also how are the living conditions generally down there? I have heard that you can leave to go to the caribbeans as early as right after high school. Just wanted to know what everyone had to say on this, thanks.
 

McGillGrad

Building Mind and Body
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2002
Messages
3,915
Reaction score
22
Taurus said:
You're just a freaking sophomore. If you sucked during your freshman year, just suck it up and kick some ass the rest of the way. You should try to get into US MD or DO program before going carib.


When I was a sophmore I was trying to see how fast I could chug a beer and eat a twinky so I could win the beer olympics, not whether I would have to choose caribbean or Canadian med schools..lol

I agree with what you said. Nothing is for sure until 4th year.
 
Members don't see this ad :)

Aseptic

Junior Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2006
Messages
10
Reaction score
0
Just a thought vis a vis education and the US. Not my bag of tea but my girlfriend has this book that is supposedly history and tells the story about a man who had no high school, no under-grad, no MD and healed the sick with love and compassion (yep... that book that really 'interesting' people like to thump so much). To be honest I don't understand why everyone seems to think that the be all and end all of medicine is in the US... in case no one was paying attention most of the medical science and innovation has been fleeing the US like rats from a sinking ship. The laws governing science and biz plus the cost of malpractice insurance are so prohibitive that most real innovators are leaving for the EU or Asia.
As far as the reputation of your school... take it with a grain of salt. I have 10 years of clinical experience as an EMT, Medic, IDMT (now have golden opp. to enter med school in carib, long story) and I have yet to see a doc tap a patient with their school/class ring and recover normal sinus. I have baby-sat interns and residents from top-name schools and prayed that they never touched any of my patients without my expressed permission and guidance, and had newbie EMTs and medics teach me a thing or two with a simple question because they were paying attention in class.
If you want to worry about where you can practice or how your degree makes you feel dealing with other people then you need to really re-evaluate your decision to enter clinical medicine... you might have to deal with a medic, nurse, tech like me and you will be surprised how quick the image of Dr. Cox (Scrubs) comes to mind. Do you want to practice medicine or do you want an Ivy-league sheepskin, Park Ave. office, trophy wife/husband, big expensive car, huge bank account, [fill in materialistic thing here]?
Finally I would advise looking very closely at all the threads in the forum and all the things that pre-med advisors, adcom Q&A's, and 'get to med school' books tell you about your education. I've been through most of it in my present position and from a clinical backround I think the whole ##[email protected]#!$-ing thing is a crock! If I hear one more "you should have a good amount of service hours, it shows us you really care", or "your high GPA shows us you can 'handle' the academics" etc. I might lose it. NEWS FLASH..... NONE OF IT HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH DOING GOOD MEDICINE. I am also amazed by the number of "pre-med advisors" dolling out advice on getting into medicine who have NO MD, DO, PA-C, NP or any other medical qualification... you want to argue who is better able to practice medicine???? my schools pre-med advisor is a PHYSIOLOGIST (not knocking the degree just the guy... he's a box o rocks) if a physiologist pre-med advisor isn't a case of "could not get into the US/MD/DO/Carib/anywhere else med school" I don't know what is!
I've been through euro education (UK GCSE) and american and my parting shot on education will be this: multiple choice answer according to info given

57 y/o male w/ Hx of IDDM and DVT on Insulin and Warfarin c/o chest pn x 2 hrs radiates from sub-sternal "crushing" pn to "jumping" pn in umbilical region.
Report via telephone/radio consult. You may order one lab test now and then others in 15 min, at which time you will receive a telephonic objective report. What one lab test do you wish to order STAT?
A. CBC
B. CMP/CHEM20
C. 'Blood Panel' (PT, PTT, INR)
D. Cardiac ER Panel
E. 'D-Stick' Glucose Level
What is the "Right" answer? Before you defend MCQ... I know they are designed to only have one right answer and several that "may" be right. EMT's, Medics, etc/ MS1->Board Cert. This is a horrible MCQ... but what does it make you think and what does it make you want to discuss?
Last FLAME: My american university courses are all stuff I did in GCSE's... that's why GCSE is req for UK MBBS/MBChB but americans need full 4yr degree +MCAT's, GPA, etc.
 

fpdoc06

Junior Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2006
Messages
19
Reaction score
0
Aseptic said:
Just a thought vis a vis education and the US. Not my bag of tea but my girlfriend has this book that is supposedly history and tells the story about a man who had no high school, no under-grad, no MD and healed the sick with love and compassion (yep... that book that really 'interesting' people like to thump so much). To be honest I don't understand why everyone seems to think that the be all and end all of medicine is in the US... in case no one was paying attention most of the medical science and innovation has been fleeing the US like rats from a sinking ship. The laws governing science and biz plus the cost of malpractice insurance are so prohibitive that most real innovators are leaving for the EU or Asia.
As far as the reputation of your school... take it with a grain of salt. I have 10 years of clinical experience as an EMT, Medic, IDMT (now have golden opp. to enter med school in carib, long story) and I have yet to see a doc tap a patient with their school/class ring and recover normal sinus. I have baby-sat interns and residents from top-name schools and prayed that they never touched any of my patients without my expressed permission and guidance, and had newbie EMTs and medics teach me a thing or two with a simple question because they were paying attention in class.
If you want to worry about where you can practice or how your degree makes you feel dealing with other people then you need to really re-evaluate your decision to enter clinical medicine... you might have to deal with a medic, nurse, tech like me and you will be surprised how quick the image of Dr. Cox (Scrubs) comes to mind. Do you want to practice medicine or do you want an Ivy-league sheepskin, Park Ave. office, trophy wife/husband, big expensive car, huge bank account, [fill in materialistic thing here]?
Finally I would advise looking very closely at all the threads in the forum and all the things that pre-med advisors, adcom Q&A's, and 'get to med school' books tell you about your education. I've been through most of it in my present position and from a clinical backround I think the whole ##[email protected]#!$-ing thing is a crock! If I hear one more "you should have a good amount of service hours, it shows us you really care", or "your high GPA shows us you can 'handle' the academics" etc. I might lose it. NEWS FLASH..... NONE OF IT HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH DOING GOOD MEDICINE. I am also amazed by the number of "pre-med advisors" dolling out advice on getting into medicine who have NO MD, DO, PA-C, NP or any other medical qualification... you want to argue who is better able to practice medicine???? my schools pre-med advisor is a PHYSIOLOGIST (not knocking the degree just the guy... he's a box o rocks) if a physiologist pre-med advisor isn't a case of "could not get into the US/MD/DO/Carib/anywhere else med school" I don't know what is!
I've been through euro education (UK GCSE) and american and my parting shot on education will be this: multiple choice answer according to info given

57 y/o male w/ Hx of IDDM and DVT on Insulin and Warfarin c/o chest pn x 2 hrs radiates from sub-sternal "crushing" pn to "jumping" pn in umbilical region.
Report via telephone/radio consult. You may order one lab test now and then others in 15 min, at which time you will receive a telephonic objective report. What one lab test do you wish to order STAT?
A. CBC
B. CMP/CHEM20
C. 'Blood Panel' (PT, PTT, INR)
D. Cardiac ER Panel
E. 'D-Stick' Glucose Level
What is the "Right" answer? Before you defend MCQ... I know they are designed to only have one right answer and several that "may" be right. EMT's, Medics, etc/ MS1->Board Cert. This is a horrible MCQ... but what does it make you think and what does it make you want to discuss?
Last FLAME: My american university courses are all stuff I did in GCSE's... that's why GCSE is req for UK MBBS/MBChB but americans need full 4yr degree +MCAT's, GPA, etc.



nicely said! :)
 

scpod

Full Member
Moderator Emeritus
15+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2005
Messages
3,241
Reaction score
136
Aseptic said:
If I hear one more "you should have a good amount of service hours, it shows us you really care", or "your high GPA shows us you can 'handle' the academics" etc. I might lose it. NEWS FLASH..... NONE OF IT HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH DOING GOOD MEDICINE.

No, it doesn't have anything to do with medicine itself, but it is important in getting into a good medical school. "Going the extra mile" by making the high GPAs and having lots of quality ECs enables you to have many, many more choices when it comes time to attend med school. Thus, those things can be pretty darn important to an applicant. 1,000,000 hours of clinical experience won't get you into your choice of med schools by itself. It might make you better doctor, but there's really no proof of that either. It might just make you arrogant and condescending, which is ultimately detrimental to your ability to take care of patients.

Aseptic said:
I am also amazed by the number of "pre-med advisors" dolling out advice on getting into medicine who have NO MD, DO, PA-C, NP or any other medical qualification... you want to argue who is better able to practice medicine????

To use your terminology, NEWSFLASH, most pre-med advisors are college professors. MDs, DOs, etc. don't generaly have the credentials to teach undergrad courses at a univeristy. The pre-med advisor is only responsible for helping you to make sure that you take the required courses needed to get into the school of your choice. S/he is not there to do anything else. They certainly aren't there to practice medicine, so I don't really understand your point. If you want an MD or DO to guide you, then you should have shadowed a few of them, just like those people did who don't have your clinical background but did get into the medical school of their choice because they did what was necessary.
 

dentalhunny

Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Messages
33
Reaction score
0
Aseptic said:
Just a thought vis a vis education and the US. Not my bag of tea but my girlfriend has this book that is supposedly history and tells the story about a man who had no high school, no under-grad, no MD and healed the sick with love and compassion (yep... that book that really 'interesting' people like to thump so much). To be honest I don't understand why everyone seems to think that the be all and end all of medicine is in the US... in case no one was paying attention most of the medical science and innovation has been fleeing the US like rats from a sinking ship. The laws governing science and biz plus the cost of malpractice insurance are so prohibitive that most real innovators are leaving for the EU or Asia.
As far as the reputation of your school... take it with a grain of salt. I have 10 years of clinical experience as an EMT, Medic, IDMT (now have golden opp. to enter med school in carib, long story) and I have yet to see a doc tap a patient with their school/class ring and recover normal sinus. I have baby-sat interns and residents from top-name schools and prayed that they never touched any of my patients without my expressed permission and guidance, and had newbie EMTs and medics teach me a thing or two with a simple question because they were paying attention in class.
If you want to worry about where you can practice or how your degree makes you feel dealing with other people then you need to really re-evaluate your decision to enter clinical medicine... you might have to deal with a medic, nurse, tech like me and you will be surprised how quick the image of Dr. Cox (Scrubs) comes to mind. Do you want to practice medicine or do you want an Ivy-league sheepskin, Park Ave. office, trophy wife/husband, big expensive car, huge bank account, [fill in materialistic thing here]?
Finally I would advise looking very closely at all the threads in the forum and all the things that pre-med advisors, adcom Q&A's, and 'get to med school' books tell you about your education. I've been through most of it in my present position and from a clinical backround I think the whole ##[email protected]#!$-ing thing is a crock! If I hear one more "you should have a good amount of service hours, it shows us you really care", or "your high GPA shows us you can 'handle' the academics" etc. I might lose it. NEWS FLASH..... NONE OF IT HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH DOING GOOD MEDICINE. I am also amazed by the number of "pre-med advisors" dolling out advice on getting into medicine who have NO MD, DO, PA-C, NP or any other medical qualification... you want to argue who is better able to practice medicine???? my schools pre-med advisor is a PHYSIOLOGIST (not knocking the degree just the guy... he's a box o rocks) if a physiologist pre-med advisor isn't a case of "could not get into the US/MD/DO/Carib/anywhere else med school" I don't know what is!
I've been through euro education (UK GCSE) and american and my parting shot on education will be this: multiple choice answer according to info given

57 y/o male w/ Hx of IDDM and DVT on Insulin and Warfarin c/o chest pn x 2 hrs radiates from sub-sternal "crushing" pn to "jumping" pn in umbilical region.
Report via telephone/radio consult. You may order one lab test now and then others in 15 min, at which time you will receive a telephonic objective report. What one lab test do you wish to order STAT?
A. CBC
B. CMP/CHEM20
C. 'Blood Panel' (PT, PTT, INR)
D. Cardiac ER Panel
E. 'D-Stick' Glucose Level
What is the "Right" answer? Before you defend MCQ... I know they are designed to only have one right answer and several that "may" be right. EMT's, Medics, etc/ MS1->Board Cert. This is a horrible MCQ... but what does it make you think and what does it make you want to discuss?
Last FLAME: My american university courses are all stuff I did in GCSE's... that's why GCSE is req for UK MBBS/MBChB but americans need full 4yr degree +MCAT's, GPA, etc.

Well done. Finally someone who makes sense
 

Dija1019

New Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2006
Messages
1
Reaction score
0
Aseptic said:
Just a thought vis a vis education and the US. Not my bag of tea but my girlfriend has this book that is supposedly history and tells the story about a man who had no high school, no under-grad, no MD and healed the sick with love and compassion (yep... that book that really 'interesting' people like to thump so much). To be honest I don't understand why everyone seems to think that the be all and end all of medicine is in the US... in case no one was paying attention most of the medical science and innovation has been fleeing the US like rats from a sinking ship. The laws governing science and biz plus the cost of malpractice insurance are so prohibitive that most real innovators are leaving for the EU or Asia.
As far as the reputation of your school... take it with a grain of salt. I have 10 years of clinical experience as an EMT, Medic, IDMT (now have golden opp. to enter med school in carib, long story) and I have yet to see a doc tap a patient with their school/class ring and recover normal sinus. I have baby-sat interns and residents from top-name schools and prayed that they never touched any of my patients without my expressed permission and guidance, and had newbie EMTs and medics teach me a thing or two with a simple question because they were paying attention in class.
If you want to worry about where you can practice or how your degree makes you feel dealing with other people then you need to really re-evaluate your decision to enter clinical medicine... you might have to deal with a medic, nurse, tech like me and you will be surprised how quick the image of Dr. Cox (Scrubs) comes to mind. Do you want to practice medicine or do you want an Ivy-league sheepskin, Park Ave. office, trophy wife/husband, big expensive car, huge bank account, [fill in materialistic thing here]?
Finally I would advise looking very closely at all the threads in the forum and all the things that pre-med advisors, adcom Q&A's, and 'get to med school' books tell you about your education. I've been through most of it in my present position and from a clinical backround I think the whole ##[email protected]#!$-ing thing is a crock! If I hear one more "you should have a good amount of service hours, it shows us you really care", or "your high GPA shows us you can 'handle' the academics" etc. I might lose it. NEWS FLASH..... NONE OF IT HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH DOING GOOD MEDICINE. I am also amazed by the number of "pre-med advisors" dolling out advice on getting into medicine who have NO MD, DO, PA-C, NP or any other medical qualification... you want to argue who is better able to practice medicine???? my schools pre-med advisor is a PHYSIOLOGIST (not knocking the degree just the guy... he's a box o rocks) if a physiologist pre-med advisor isn't a case of "could not get into the US/MD/DO/Carib/anywhere else med school" I don't know what is!
I've been through euro education (UK GCSE) and american and my parting shot on education will be this: multiple choice answer according to info given

57 y/o male w/ Hx of IDDM and DVT on Insulin and Warfarin c/o chest pn x 2 hrs radiates from sub-sternal "crushing" pn to "jumping" pn in umbilical region.
Report via telephone/radio consult. You may order one lab test now and then others in 15 min, at which time you will receive a telephonic objective report. What one lab test do you wish to order STAT?
A. CBC
B. CMP/CHEM20
C. 'Blood Panel' (PT, PTT, INR)
D. Cardiac ER Panel
E. 'D-Stick' Glucose Level
What is the "Right" answer? Before you defend MCQ... I know they are designed to only have one right answer and several that "may" be right. EMT's, Medics, etc/ MS1->Board Cert. This is a horrible MCQ... but what does it make you think and what does it make you want to discuss?
Last FLAME: My american university courses are all stuff I did in GCSE's... that's why GCSE is req for UK MBBS/MBChB but americans need full 4yr degree +MCAT's, GPA, etc.

Thank you!!!
 

Aseptic

Junior Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2006
Messages
10
Reaction score
0
scpod... you are completely correct! All that experience will not get me into medical school (actually with that and my UK education I've found out that I don't need to do a US under-grad to get into med school) but what it does do is give me some insight into real life and also into the realities of medicine. First off I have no problem with someone trying to be "the best" and getting into a good school is part of that according to our society. What I know for a fact is that EMT, Medic, IDMT, RN, NP, PA-C, MBBS, MBChB, MD, DO... @$#ing board certified.... all of these are just cards to carry in your wallet. The best school in the world is not gonna prepare you for the small moments that you look in the mirror and wonder to yourself if the body you just sent down to pathology for autopsy is dead because you $%#@ed up. If you want to do medicine then you'd better grasp and get real comfortable with the concept of being responsible for the very lives of strangers. And you have to get ready to question everything you've ever learned and be prepared to play (sorry if I piss anyone off with this) big [email protected] contest... 'cause it seems like most people in medicine want to talk a lot about where they went to school and act like you have to go to a certain place to be a REAL doctor (sorry but surgery res comes to mind)
There are two GREAT lessons in medicine, I remember one of the docs I worked for telling me this (yes he respected me... he gave me a copy of his signature stamp and his DEA number if that puts things into light) he told me, "You won't have a problem getting into med school and you'll be a great doc... you've already learned the two greatest lessons a physician should know... 1. Know where to look it up... and 2. Know WHEN and WHERE to ask for a second opinion"

You can think and analyze getting into med school all you want... If I was an admissions board member I'd probably investigate further anyone involved with studentdoctor.net. Y'all seem to have a HUGE hang-up on where you go to school or if you can practice in the US. All the posts I've seen (excluding a few of real worth) seem to embrace the mentality of "how do I wrap my [email protected] in such a way that I'll convince all the admissions people that I really care and want to do this?" OK thats the educational system that we've created... but I personally believe that if that is what you have to do then it's not worth doing. You can play the game all you want... I wash my hands of your mentality and ideas... I may have to bust my ass just to get into a med school that YOU think isn't good enough for you... but come the real world... I'm not gonna have to ask for help to put in a IV. And god help you if the power goes out.... I've delt with people like you a lot... you talk a good game but the reality is... defend your education all you want... I got my A-levels at age of 15 and could paul revere you up and down any ward or hospital floor you want. Besides when I really get called on the carpet... I don't keep asking for lab tests I can't carry on my back... you want to be a "good school" doctor and have all kinds of nice things... good for you. I can count on you to have all the answers if the fluffy cotten candy is being passed out. If you don't have access to all the wonderful tests and pictures you want... "It's not GOOD medicine"... you are WORTHLESS unless you can perform with just what you can carry on your back.
Please tell me what REAL medicine is... I've done it with [email protected] but what I carried on my back... maybe you can tell me what REAL medicine is?
 

McGillGrad

Building Mind and Body
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2002
Messages
3,915
Reaction score
22
Aseptic said:
. Y'all seem to have a HUGE hang-up on where you go to school or if you can practice in the US. All the posts I've seen (excluding a few of real worth) seem to embrace the mentality of "how do I wrap my [email protected] in such a way that I'll convince all the admissions people that I really care and want to do this?" OK thats the educational system that we've created... but I personally believe that if that is what you have to do then it's not worth doing. You can play the game all you want... I wash my hands of your mentality and ideas...


Classic! :thumbup: :laugh:

How true!
 

Aseptic

Junior Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2006
Messages
10
Reaction score
0
full stop: Do Medicine to help and HEAL, if you care about how you look while you are doing it... then find another profession! The patient you save won't care the slightest bit where you went to school or trained and the patient that sues your ass for [email protected]$king up doesn't care if you graduated Summa Cum Laude from Harvard, Colombia, J-H, or the damn Vatican.

By the way... little tip: most big doctors who graduated from harvard get sued a lot... treat your patients with respect and don't try to impress them with a lot of latin because you went to a really good school and you want to show how amazing you are... and you wont get sued.

Last: If you can't explain it to a 4 year-old... then you don't REALLY know it!
 

Aseptic

Junior Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2006
Messages
10
Reaction score
0
scpod said:
No, it doesn't have anything to do with medicine itself, but it is important in getting into a good medical school. "Going the extra mile" by making the high GPAs and having lots of quality ECs enables you to have many, many more choices when it comes time to attend med school. Thus, those things can be pretty darn important to an applicant. 1,000,000 hours of clinical experience won't get you into your choice of med schools by itself. It might make you better doctor, but there's really no proof of that either. It might just make you arrogant and condescending, which is ultimately detrimental to your ability to take care of patients.



To use your terminology, NEWSFLASH, most pre-med advisors are college professors. MDs, DOs, etc. don't generaly have the credentials to teach undergrad courses at a univeristy. The pre-med advisor is only responsible for helping you to make sure that you take the required courses needed to get into the school of your choice. S/he is not there to do anything else. They certainly aren't there to practice medicine, so I don't really understand your point. If you want an MD or DO to guide you, then you should have shadowed a few of them, just like those people did who don't have your clinical background but did get into the medical school of their choice because they did what was necessary.
fine... I'm done being nice... if MD and DO are not qualified to teach undergrad then how the @#$$#@ are they qualified to teach grad medicine?????????
I'm qualified to teach @#$#@ing off... do I need to show you and the president of the US my credentials?????
you think it's so wonderful... good... try to get admitted to a school in europe and see what they think of your "education".
 

scpod

Full Member
Moderator Emeritus
15+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2005
Messages
3,241
Reaction score
136
Aseptic said:
fine... I'm done being nice... if MD and DO are not qualified to teach undergrad then how the @#$$#@ are they qualified to teach grad medicine?????????
I'm qualified to teach @#$#@ing off... do I need to show you and the president of the US my credentials?????
you think it's so wonderful... good... try to get admitted to a school in europe and see what they think of your "education".

I don't really care whether or not you are nice, but your patients will probably care if you ever have any of them. MDs and DOs aren't qualified to teach undergrad subjects because they don't have advanced degrees in any of the undergrad subjects. They can teach clinical medicine in medical schools (but not basic sciences unless they also have a PhD) because they do have a degree in that. Of course, PhDs are not actually qualified to teach in highschool in America, either, unless they have also passed the teacher certification process in the state in which they reside.

BTW, I don't really care to ever go to Europe. I have plenty of things to do right here in the US. I also don't care what they think about my "education." Why do you seem to care so much about what other people think? Where does all this animosity come from? At least you have an anonymous forum that you can go to to blow off this aggression. I'd hate to see you use it on colleagues or patients.

I've never thought that it matters what school you actually get into. If you get into any at all you can still be a "doctor." Yet, playing the game is part of it if you want to increase the number of options you have and actually have a choice in where you go. Does that agree with me philisophically? No, not really, but I don't care about that because what matters in the end is that I will still have the ability to take care of patients and solve their problems, regardless of what med school I go to. The admissions process is far from being fair and, in fact, is probably contrary to the mission statements of most schools in this country. Yet, one must do what is necessary for the better good.

Unfortunately, the American medical school admissions system has selected for arrogant, condescending, "know-it-all" personalities for the last 50 years or more, and has selected against many who would have been better practicioners. The way to end that is not simply to bitch and complain about it. Each person needs to play the game, pay the dues, and if you knock just one of those arrogant bastards out of his Harvard spot, then you have performed a service for mankind.
 

Aseptic

Junior Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2006
Messages
10
Reaction score
0
once again you are right on the money... but I don't have to like the system :> I'm starting a new thread in response to a message from someone concerning my original post on this thread... gonna talk about medicine
 

rgerwin

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2004
Messages
965
Reaction score
0
I wanted to highlight this statement, b/c I strongly believe that many physicians don't take the time to properly explain to their patients what's going on, and the patient is the one who has to live with it! One of the greatest assets a doctor can have is the ability to teach all different walks of life.



Aseptic said:
full stop: Do Medicine to help and HEAL, if you care about how you look while you are doing it... then find another profession! The patient you save won't care the slightest bit where you went to school or trained and the patient that sues your ass for [email protected]$king up doesn't care if you graduated Summa Cum Laude from Harvard, Colombia, J-H, or the damn Vatican.

By the way... little tip: most big doctors who graduated from harvard get sued a lot... treat your patients with respect and don't try to impress them with a lot of latin because you went to a really good school and you want to show how amazing you are... and you wont get sued.

Last: If you can't explain it to a 4 year-old... then you don't REALLY know it!
 
Top