USC... As malignant as they say?

[toxic-megacolon]

With all the Chicago, NYC, and Mid-Atlantic posts, there hasn't really been a discussion on California porgrams. I had 2 general questions; instead of 2 separate posts, I'm just goign to post them here, and I hope you all can share your thoughts...

1. USC. The program seemed great and organized, with sim labs, involved attendings, etc, but in talking to many, I'm starting to get the impression that they just put on a real good show. My question is how nasty/malignant is this program? Anyone with personal experience?

2. UC-Irvine. Seemed to have everything I'm looking for in a GS progarm... EXCEPT what I found disturbing is during the M&M, the residents really didn't seem to know what they were talking about. I thought it was just the first resident presenting but the second one who presented was a bigger ******* than the first! I was impressed with the patience of the attendings, although one finally got so frustrated he just spoon-fed the answers to the pimp questions after a while. 🙄 Was this a totally atypical moment for UCI??? I hope so! How does UCI compare in academic reputation to UCSD or USC?

Thanks in advance to everyone who can provide some insight!!!
-TMC

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[Plastikos]

USC isnt an easy program by any stretch of the imagination. We are level one trauma like many, but unlike many it can at times dominate your training. In seeing other programs (through plastics interviews though) it sure seems many places are a lot cushier. SC was my only g surg interview and i felt they put on a good show, but everybody does. I would say its just a super demanding residency b/c of county, where your so understaffed everyone is working a lot. Hopefully the new hospital will help out a lot.

Irvine: That place is pretty sweet, night float, good facilities, etc...I have only heard good things from rotators doing g surg. One thing though, they pamper the med students and have heard mixed reviews. They are only allowed to be in house for 12 hours and when on call are there from 6pm-6am.

 

[toxic-megacolon]

USC isnt an easy program by any stretch of the imagination. We are level one trauma like many, but unlike many it can at times dominate your training. In seeing other programs (through plastics interviews though) it sure seems many places are a lot cushier. SC was my only g surg interview and i felt they put on a good show, but everybody does. I would say its just a super demanding residency b/c of county, where your so understaffed everyone is working a lot. Hopefully the new hospital will help out a lot.

Irvine: That place is pretty sweet, night float, good facilities, etc...I have only heard good things from rotators doing g surg. One thing though, they pamper the med students and have heard mixed reviews. They are only allowed to be in house for 12 hours and when on call are there from 6pm-6am.

Thanks for the input; it kind of goes with my impressions, so that's good. I wanted to clarify that in my eyes, "demanding" and "malignant" are very different.

Demanding = "Aww crap, it 9pm, I have a ton of stuff to do and I'm still here"

Malignant = Chief or attending says "What the #$@!! is wrong with you??? Its 9pm You're so $#@&!! inefficient!!!"

 

[bcdnw]

From what i gather as a current student strongly considering g-surg, I would offer the following:

hours - they're fairly good about the 80-hour week. Some services are much less, trauma and CT are two I know that bump up against it often.

attendings - it's really hit and miss. There are a couple that people really don't like, and interestingly enough, two take call in the non-trauma emergency service (but are balanced out by other ridiculously friendly attendings there). The chair is awesome, but the current PD is very rough.

services - trauma, hepatobiliary/transplant, thoracic-foregut (chairman's service) are very well thought of. Plastics, CT, vascular, laproscopic all good, but not as much so. The main laproscopic guy is an infamous yeller (along with the PD). They don't really believe in surg onc, other than breast - it's handled by services.

In general, lots of autonomy, but attendings are always around. I saw very little actual stuff that you describe as malignant. Having the county hospital balanced out by the USC University hospital (nice private hospital with competent ancillary staff, unlike the county) seems to be very good.

They do encourage time off for research, but it's not required. If you're the weakest categorical, it's not unheard of for them to suggest a CC fellowship after your third year instead of completing the program. This does happen, but far more infrequently than in the past. I think you'd really have to suck for this to happen.

If I wanted to stay in LA, which I have mixed feelings about, I would strongly consider USC if I was interested in one of those strong areas I mentioned, or wanted to develop my skills moreso than other major academic places in LA, where there are fewer opportunities and less autonomy in the OR ...

 

[locitamd]

...or wanted to develop my skills moreso than other major academic places in LA, where there are fewer opportunities and less autonomy in the OR ...

is this the case for UCLA? Less OR time 🙁

 

[toxic-megacolon]

is this the case for UCLA? Less OR time 🙁

From what I saw, UCLA-Harbor has a ton of OR time, UCLA has a ton of pipet and test tube time.

 

[locitamd]

From what I saw...UCLA has a ton of pipet and test tube time.

my stomach just lurched when I read this. I know they are research heavy and the two years are mandatory, but does it really cut into OR time/training?

 

[toxic-megacolon]

my stomach just lurched when I read this. I know they are research heavy and the two years are mandatory, but does it really cut into OR time/training?

I was only half serious... No matter where you go, you'll be good with your hands when you come out. The largest variable is going to be your own innate skill/motivation. I did NOT mean to say that UCLA would provide inadequate training... Far from it. But yes, you will generally operate less at more basic science focused places, and that experiecne will be spread out (diluted?) over 7-8 years, instead of 5. Do I think its really going to make a difference??? NO!!!. (Except for maybe your sanity).

 

[avgjoe]

I was only half serious... No matter where you go, you'll be good with your hands when you come out. The largest variable is going to be your own innate skill/motivation. I did NOT mean to say that UCLA would provide inadequate training... Far from it. But yes, you will generally operate less at more basic science focused places, and that experiecne will be spread out (diluted?) over 7-8 years, instead of 5. Do I think its really going to make a difference??? NO!!!. (Except for maybe your sanity).

One thing i thought was really weird about UCLA was that they included 'central line changes' and line placements on the OR schedule and counted those as "cases". I've never seen that done at any other place - really took away from the interns saying that they had done 100 "cases" already!

 

[Plastikos]

Thanks for the input; it kind of goes with my impressions, so that's good. I wanted to clarify that in my eyes, "demanding" and "malignant" are very different.

Demanding = "Aww crap, it 9pm, I have a ton of stuff to do and I'm still here"

Malignant = Chief or attending says "What the #$@!! is wrong with you??? Its 9pm You're so $#@&!! inefficient!!!"

It is more along those lines, and you can sometimes feel like its you against the whole of LA county. The only people with a real rep for having tantrums and such are those the other guy mentioned, but your exceedingly lucky if you can get zero at a place. There are also some great people here in the g surg department.

Also i would like to add an addendum to the other USC students post, but no offense, you just sound like a third year student and you learn a lot more about places after interviewing and doing sub i's in fourth year. Plus all the close contact with PD's and faculty gives you great access to whats actually going on.

Trauma, foregut, transplant- Very well thought of academically but are some of the most demanding and for some worst rotations. I for one love trauma and our faculty in it, but still wouldnt want to do it as often as we do.

On a personal note, our plastics program is top notch in training, just as a general surgeon you wont be seeing it beyond intern year. If anything its rep is brought down by the general surgery experience.

Overall i love USC, but im no idiot. If i were doing g surg it would be somewhere else with probably UCI on top. For plastics though, i believe the g surg to be a tolerable exchange for our plastics and staying in LA. Not that i dont like g surg, but some programs have an excellent set up the first couple years that i believe are better.

 

[Plastikos]

One thing i thought was really weird about UCLA was that they included 'central line changes' and line placements on the OR schedule and counted those as "cases". I've never seen that done at any other place - really took away from the interns saying that they had done 100 "cases" already!

thats a BIG red flag

Did anyone else find it interesting that in most pseudo academic/community affiliated programs the operation experience was excellent. I tell you what i believe the more you operate the better you are, its not where you signed orders that matters.

 

[fishmonger69]

thats a BIG red flag

Did anyone else find it interesting that in most pseudo academic/community affiliated programs the operation experience was excellent. I tell you what i believe the more you operate the better you are, its not where you signed orders that matters.

exactly. i've been getting the "all places will train you the same; you'll be a good surgeon no matter where you train; blah blah" from everyone i talk to but i don't believe it. there are clearly better clinical/surgical training programs, as there are clearly better research programs. names are usually inversely related to the quality of clinical training, hence the pseudo academic/community programs training technically better surgeons (tons of OR time).

and re. counting lines as cases, to me that is stupid. as a 3rd year medical student you should be placing lines, rewiring, etc. counting them during residency is something medicine residents do.

 

[Needleandthread]

I learned at USC that one of their residents was having an affair with a faculty member and she had his kid. The husband got mad and killed her. What kind of department lets that happen? 😱

I looked it up on the internet. It's true, not fiction! It's all in the public record. I won't name the USC faculty member but it's in the court record. He stayed on at USC for a long time after the pregnancy. The husband, Hratch Baliozian, is now in prison in Lancaster, CA.
http://www.hbpd.org/pr_10-10-97.htm (the address on the link is an Arby's. The USC professor and the lady were eating there. I'm as shocked as you are that this happened!)

 

[Castro Viejo]

thats a BIG red flag

Did anyone else find it interesting that in most pseudo academic/community affiliated programs the operation experience was excellent. I tell you what i believe the more you operate the better you are, its not where you signed orders that matters.

I think the type of program you ultimately should go to (academic vs. "pseudoacademic"/community) depends on what you want out of your surgical career. It's true that community programs tend to stick you in the OR a lot more than the academic programs, but the didactics usually don't live up to your expectations.

At my "university-affiliated" community program, each of the three categorical interns have logged over 100 cases as of this moment. Sure these are "lumps and bumps" with a few hernias smattered in there, but it's impressive (to me) nonetheless. But the key is that they're reading and that's how you train surgeons. Any residency program in this country can train a technician, but you've got to read a whole heck of a lot to be a surgeon.

 

[toxic-megacolon]

Before this thread disappears into obscurity, any final comments on West Coast programs??? Particularly UC-Irvine, UCSD, USC, Kaiser So Cal, and OHSU. Gonna make that rank list this week. 😱 😱

 

[Plastikos]

Love UCI, USC is great for trauma and the right person, OHSU-portland is a sweet place to have a good time, Kaiser-heard great things about this place, and apparently they have no problem placing grads in fellowships like plastics.

BTW, the west coast ROCKS!!


Fight On!

 

[toxic-megacolon]

Love UCI, USC is great for trauma and the right person, OHSU-portland is a sweet place to have a good time, Kaiser-heard great things about this place, and apparently they have no problem placing grads in fellowships like plastics.

BTW, the west coast ROCKS!!


Fight On!

Thanks for the great advice everyone. Sounds like win-win.

 

[WTFWIT]

Irvine: That place is pretty sweet, night float, good facilities, etc...I have only heard good things from rotators doing g surg. One thing though, they pamper the med students and have heard mixed reviews. They are only allowed to be in house for 12 hours and when on call are there from 6pm-6am.

Long time lurker, first time poster, this quote... or the fact that I've been sentenced to UCIMC for 30+ hours has prompted me to reply. If one is considering matching at any program, what does it matter that the med students are "pampered"? I mean really, aren't we all paying pretty large chunks of change and mortgaging good portions of our futures to actually be trained and taught? If I'm on service for only 12 hours a day and present on-call from 6p-6a, does that mean as an intern you only get to pimp/scut my ass for only 80 hours a week. What about actually teaching me a thing or two about the specialty, aside from what I can gleam via First Aid/Blueprints/StatRef. Last time I checked, the lowly MS3 actually pays for the privilage to be on the service, vs. the intern who gets paid to be trained, paid to learn and paid to practice something they should already love.