USC or Columbia for an MSW?

[Hellothisisme]

Thoughts on pros and cons for attending USC vs Columbia for an MSW degree?

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[ClinicalNYC]

It all depends on where you want to live after graduation. A lot of times students get jobs from their field placement sites, so in this field it is important to go to school in the area where you plan on working. Also, forget all the "Ivy" talk. It doesn't matter at all in social work. This is a relatively low paying field and (being that you are interested in a clinical direction) your earning power will be more influenced by your post-grad training and experience, rather than where you went to school.

About the "academic experience", you will find that social work is neither academic nor really intellectually rigorous. Some people argue that it's not even a real discipline, but rather a loose collection of various other disciplines. Bottom line, social work and education masters degrees are the two easiest to get and the least intellectually rigorous. Your training will be very generalist and you will not feel prepared to be a therapist right after school. You will get your "clinical chops" from your experience and training post-grad, so again, where you went to school isn't that important.

Best advice: Go to the cheapest program in the area you want to live in that has a clinical training. You don't want to a) spend too much on this degree, b) intern in an area where you will not be living or c) go "all in" into a masters program that might in the end be a little disappointing.

Full disclosure: I currently go to one of the top MSW programs in the country (not Columbia), but I do know several people who have graduated from Columbia (including my current supervisor) and so do know a thing or two about that program.

 

[Twilightrichard]

Hi bchung89,

I am glad I found this post because I am exactly in the same position you are in when it comes to choosing MSW programs. I also got into USC and Columbia, but I am a NY state resident. I actually see myself living in California permanently someday but at the same time I do love NYC, so I am having conflicting thoughts. At the same time I have heard that Columbia's program is very good and of course carries that "IVY" title. But of course both programs carry that price tag and I have already accumulated a bit of debt from undergrad as I went to an out of state private school in CT which costs the same amount as Columbia. We definitely should exchange e-mail or contact info bchung89 =D.

Ultimately I want to become a LCSW so I am hoping that these schools can help prepare me.I am still waiting on the financial aid letter that Columbia will be sending soon. I also am waiting on a response from Hunter college in NY which is supposed to be a good value for the MSW program.

ClinicalNYC I hope that you can help us both with further advice!

 

[psich]

I would advise you to think practically at this point...you don't want to get yourself into too much debt by going to an MSW program. Compare curricula, compare cost of living, compare potential career opportunities for each program/location, find out how many of their students find placements at internships, etc.

 

[Schooled]

Definitely consider everyone's advice so far. To reiterate:

-Compare costs. You don’t want to go into too much debt, especially since SW don’t make that much starting.

-CSWE accredits MSW programs, thus most MSW programs are similar and vary mostly on emphasis and sequence.

In the same vein as the second point, check the program’s overall emphasis. Also look up the professors and see what they’re studying. Does Columbia have a professor actively studying human trafficking? If they do, is it sex trafficking or labor? Domestic or international? While I’d wager that every SW professor can talk to you about it, you’ll learn the most from a professor actively studying it.

For example, I was interested in working with older adults on quality of life issues. I chose my program because they have several professors that the forefront of gerontological social work.

Also, see if you can get a list of practica/internship sites. See if you would be happy interning at these places.

 

[ClinicalNYC]

Hi bchung89,

I am glad I found this post because I am exactly in the same position you are in when it comes to choosing MSW programs. I also got into USC and Columbia, but I am a NY state resident. I actually see myself living in California permanently someday but at the same time I do love NYC, so I am having conflicting thoughts. At the same time I have heard that Columbia's program is very good and of course carries that "IVY" title. But of course both programs carry that price tag and I have already accumulated a bit of debt from undergrad as I went to an out of state private school in CT which costs the same amount as Columbia. We definitely should exchange e-mail or contact info bchung89 =D.

Ultimately I want to become a LCSW so I am hoping that these schools can help prepare me.I am still waiting on the financial aid letter that Columbia will be sending soon. I also am waiting on a response from Hunter college in NY which is supposed to be a good value for the MSW program.

ClinicalNYC I hope that you can help us both with further advice!

I don't think Columbia gives too much financial aid. It's probably the most expensive SW school in NYC. NYU is also expensive but gives way more financial aid. In regards to Hunter, run don't walk there if they accept you. Not only is it a good value, it's the best program in NYC and the most competitive to get into. There are lots of people who got into Columbia and NYU but not Hunter- that's because Hunter has a great reputation and is 4x cheaper than the other schools for in-staters. Also, another things about Hunter- they use some of the same adjunct faculty as Columbia and NYU, so guess what, you may end up having some of the same professors regardless of where you go, so what are you really paying for with those expensive tuitions? Also, the MSW program at Hunter is in a separate building apart from undergrad and in 2011 it is moving to an even more lavish multi-million dollar building. Long story short, Hunter takes social work very seriously.

Good luck.

 

[AnLMSW]

bchung89,

I graduated from Columbia and I can tell you that you should save your money and go to a cheaper school. In order to be a social worker you have to take and pass the LMSW test. It doesn't matter where you go to so forget about the IVY League status. If you have money or can get a scholarship then yes, go to Columbia and live it up in NYC. Otherwise, be prepared to be in debt for the next 10-15 years. Let's be honest, social workers make very little money. After graduation, most of my classmates from CUSSW are only making 30s-40s. You can't exactly lead a glamorous life with that kind of salary in NYC. If you plan on staying in California then i strong suggest you get your degree there as well.

Aside from the cost, the program itself, in my opinion was not that challenging. I can tell you a lot of people did half ass jobs, but still got A's in the class. Columbia is known for its strong policy and administration tracks, so at times the materials you study are very general and you end up with no specialization. I don't want to discourage anyone from going to Columbia if that's where they truly want to go, but just consider the costs. You may not think its a big deal now, but once you graduate and have to pay back the loans with compounding interest, you'll regret going an expensive school, whether is NYU, Columbia, or wherever.

good luck with your decision,
-AnLMSW

 

[slawburg]

Hi all,

I am also at the moment considering Columbia with the debt in all seriousness for the following reasons:

I have been working the field of development - both internationally and in resource development in the US - and I understand Columbia has an International Social Welfare and Policy track that would supplement my work experience and existing MPH I received in 2003. I suppose if I was planning to go the clinical route without this specialized focus then, no, I would not be considering the financial investment into Columbia.

With this route, I will be able to take classes at SIPA and the law school and these classes will undoubtedly help to make things "academically more rigorous" if I am finding the program to be lacking in this sense. In terms of social work failing to be "intellectually challenging" this is debatable: An academic program, no matter where you study, is only what you make it. If you want to intellectualize social work this can be done via your own initiative. Social work research and policy analysis can easily be challenging and rigorous if you choose to go this route.

On another note, for people who do not think a name of a school is important, I have to say my experience has shown the opposite. I received my MPH from a second tier state school because I received a full tuition waiver. I got the education for free which was great, but when I moved on to find a job in a large city I saw all of the people with degrees from more "connected" schools snatch up really great jobs because of their schools' reputations and connections. No one seemed to take me seriously from Joe Schmo State U.

I am an experienced professional with a lot to learn about Social Work Policy Practice - so I feel like there is some sense in this decision, but I do understand the argument against spending loads on a social work degree in a field/sector where things like an "Ivy name" do not make a difference in terms of employability or financial yield. In my field (international development) the sad truth is sometimes people will not really consider you without coming from a school with “a name.” This is unfortunate but true...but from my years of experience I can certainly vouch for it!

bchung89,

I graduated from Columbia and I can tell you that you should save your money and go to a cheaper school. In order to be a social worker you have to take and pass the LMSW test. It doesn't matter where you go to so forget about the IVY League status. If you have money or can get a scholarship then yes, go to Columbia and live it up in NYC. Otherwise, be prepared to be in debt for the next 10-15 years. Let's be honest, social workers make very little money. After graduation, most of my classmates from CUSSW are only making 30s-40s. You can't exactly lead a glamorous life with that kind of salary in NYC. If you plan on staying in California then i strong suggest you get your degree there as well.

Aside from the cost, the program itself, in my opinion was not that challenging. I can tell you a lot of people did half ass jobs, but still got A's in the class. Columbia is known for its strong policy and administration tracks, so at times the materials you study are very general and you end up with no specialization. I don't want to discourage anyone from going to Columbia if that's where they truly want to go, but just consider the costs. You may not think its a big deal now, but once you graduate and have to pay back the loans with compounding interest, you'll regret going an expensive school, whether is NYU, Columbia, or wherever.

good luck with your decision,
-AnLMSW

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

"Name" can matter in certain settings. As the user above mentioned, in the business world and "general public", people seem to care more. For people looking to do private practice or work for an agency, I'd go with the program that will allow for the least amount of debt (as long as it is acred. by the right organizations).

 

[Jcwavrider]

This is an old post so my input is likely irrelevant. However, I'll put in my two cents anyway. All CSWE accredited are basically the same. I've found that the quality of education depends more on the quality of the student. In Southern Calfornia, there are excellent SW programs and I've associated with truly outstanding social workers from SDSU, CSULB, UCLA, etc. However, if you have the opportunity to go to USC or Berkeley, go for it. Believe that name and reputation makes a big difference. Let me also put UCLA back into the big name mix. I'm biased towards USC because Trojans are like that. However, when one looks at who is in leadership positions within the community, the big name schools are overrepresented. Is it the quality of education, or networking? All things being equal, I would likely hire a USC, UCLA or Berkeley grad over CSU grads. They have more crebility and respect coming in the door. The same goes for Columbia, Penn, NYU and the like. I want my staff to have the best academic pedigrees possible. BTW, USC has the best networking in the country. Fight On!

One more thing, I work for the federal government. Social worker starting pay is minimum of 50k (GS-9) level. They become GS-11 in a year (over 60K) and then GS-12 after licensure. GS-13 and GS-14 in certain leadership positions. By retirement, you should be earning six figures.

 

[sportpsychcop]

Not too constructive of input for this thread, but Id be cautious about thinking all Columbia programs are Ivy....Columbia and Cornell for sure are two Ivy schools that also have some sort of public portion of the schools as well that are not truly "Ivy"....maybe most people would never know, and I have no clue about MSWs but I wouldnt be impressed if someone went to a no name undergrad and did an MSW at any brand name school unless it was amazingly prestigious in its own right....

So much a toss up on choosing grad programs...Im doing my second masters degree, and must say that it hasnt met my expectations. Neither did my first masters...and both are respectively "tops" in their niche areas with well known faculty. My first masters cost me like $60k which I still owe $30k, and this masters Im in now will cost me probably $15-20k.... I still feel like most of my learning will be outside the classroom, reading on my own, conferences, seminars, OJT, and meeting good mentors....

I was thinking about a PhD, but now am starting to think I might consider doing yet a third masters in some sort of licensure track counseling program....but I will surely not pay a ton of money or do in lots of debt unless its really an amazing program...

Im in Los Angeles now, so wil be looking locally as well as east coast for programs...

 

[wigflip]

I was thinking about a PhD, but now am starting to think I might consider doing yet a third masters in some sort of licensure track counseling program....but I will surely not pay a ton of money or do in lots of debt unless its really an amazing program...

If you're thinking about a PhD in an academic field other than clinical psych (which you'd need for licensure as a clinical psychologist), you're likely to get more of the same (most learning is self-generated). A friend in cognitive psych warned me about this years ago--I wish I'd listened. I now think of degrees more in terms of connections/pedigree/credentialing. You'll need a doctorate to make a dent in the academic job market or become a credible researcher. Otherwise, don't bother.

 

[sportpsychcop]

If you're thinking about a PhD in an academic field other than clinical psych (which you'd need for licensure as a clinical psychologist), you're likely to get more of the same (most learning is self-generated). A friend in cognitive psych warned me about this years ago--I wish I'd listened. I now think of degrees more in terms of connections/pedigree/credentialing. You'll need a doctorate to make a dent in the academic job market or become a credible researcher. Otherwise, don't bother.

Thanks for that input. I guess I am learning the hard way what I might have already known, that most learning is self generated. Im late 30s and had a change in careers due to medical issues, so thought Id be all ambitous and rock out another masters in a field I have interest, so I could apply to the top PhDs in that field. Even being at what is a respectable program with amazing professors, I am not learning nearly as much as I expected. I only have one more class in the subject area, with a few other very basic check the box counseling courses and a thesis. So I am halfway through and already building my own reading list for outside of class, and lists of conferences or training seminars in areas I have interest in, as well contacting mentors who have similar interests as mine. I am thankful I do learn more outside of the classroom from interaction with my professors who are outstanding.

Maybe I made a mistake not getting a masters in some sort of psych program that led to a license, and then learning about sports psych on my own after taking classes as needed for AASP certification...oh well, Im already in it to win it so will finish this one and re-evaluate. This summer I need to hit some serious prayer and meditation time figuring out what the next step will be. If a PhD is more of the same, with people more interested in research and teaching, I could feel even more disconnected. I have always been in jobs oriented in serving other people (police officer, college coach, ministry), so I want experiences/training where I am learning about serving others sooner rather than later.

 

[wigflip]

Thanks for that input. I guess I am learning the hard way what I might have already known, that most learning is self generated. Im late 30s and had a change in careers due to medical issues, so thought Id be all ambitous and rock out another masters in a field I have interest, so I could apply to the top PhDs in that field. Even being at what is a respectable program with amazing professors, I am not learning nearly as much as I expected. I only have one more class in the subject area, with a few other very basic check the box counseling courses and a thesis. So I am halfway through and already building my own reading list for outside of class, and lists of conferences or training seminars in areas I have interest in, as well contacting mentors who have similar interests as mine. I am thankful I do learn more outside of the classroom from interaction with my professors who are outstanding.

Maybe I made a mistake not getting a masters in some sort of psych program that led to a license, and then learning about sports psych on my own after taking classes as needed for AASP certification...oh well, Im already in it to win it so will finish this one and re-evaluate. This summer I need to hit some serious prayer and meditation time figuring out what the next step will be. If a PhD is more of the same, with people more interested in research and teaching, I could feel even more disconnected. I have always been in jobs oriented in serving other people (police officer, college coach, ministry), so I want experiences/training where I am learning about serving others sooner rather than later.

I'm a late career changer too, but have fallen out of love with academia. It sounds like you have the motivation and interest to complete a doctorate, but it's really overkill unless you want to become a researcher or teach (and even then, getting a job is no easy matter).
Good luck, whatever you choose.

 

[sportpsychcop]

I'm a late career changer too, but have fallen out of love with academia. It sounds like you have the motivation and interest to complete a doctorate, but it's really overkill unless you want to become a researcher or teach (and even then, getting a job is no easy matter).
Good luck, whatever you choose.

I love learning, not sure that means I love academia...I do not think I have interest anymore in being a professor...I would be interested in private practice if I did a licensure program in addition to consulting for various niche areas I already have opportunities whether I get any more degrees or not....I just wanted to learn a great deal more...

 

[wigflip]

I love learning, not sure that means I love academia...I do not think I have interest anymore in being a professor...I would be interested in private practice if I did a licensure program in addition to consulting for various niche areas I already have opportunities whether I get any more degrees or not....I just wanted to learn a great deal more...

Dweezil tells a great story about his dad, Frank Zappa. Frank was an autodidact. I guess Frank showed up for a studio session, and handed out orchestral arrangements. One of the studio cats asked, "Frank, where'd you learn to do this?" And Frank said, "The library."

 

[sportpsychcop]

Dweezil tells a great story about his dad, Frank Zappa. Frank was an autodidact. I guess Frank showed up for a studio session, and handed out orchestral arrangements. One of the studio cats asked, "Frank, where'd you learn to do this?" And Frank said, "The library."

haha! Great! Honestly I have a lot of soul searching to do this summer. I have plenty of work opportunities now without even the need to finish this masters. I am going to finish it though as I am halfway done. Most of my learning though is taking place through out of class conversations with profs, my own reading, and seeking out people in the field who do things I want to do. I have stacks of books I cant wait to read when semester is over. One of my professors told me to just go get chopping doing the work I can do after the masters and keep reading good books and staying in touch with mentors, that most PhD students and professors will drive me nuts because they are not applied in nature (we are talking sports psych). I still think about the licensure piece though, so if I could get into a program with both sports psych and counseling, maybe it would be worth sucking it up. If not, I have to learn more about masters programs in counseling, and see if the time and money investment would be worth the pay off.

 

[wigflip]

most PhD students and professors will drive me nuts because they are not applied in nature

Oh yes. Yes. YES. The pretense of most of these folks far outshadows their usefulness.

You sound like a dream student--self-motivated, engaged, enthusiastic. Any mentor would be lucky to have you.

 

[sportpsychcop]

Oh yes. Yes. YES. The pretense of most of these folks far outshadows their usefulness.

You sound like a dream student--self-motivated, engaged, enthusiastic. Any mentor would be lucky to have you.

hah, thank you for saying that. Im pretty sure my current masters professors enjoy my personality as well appreciate all my life experience. Im a little bit of a workaholic with my studies (and everything else), which starts presenting problems if I am not enjoying what I am doing.

I am not sure if I will find a professor or professors in a PhD program that have similar interests of mine or would encourage me to pursue mine...that could be a big question to determine in the next year. Most of the people I have found doing the type of research I want to get into, are not in sports psych programs nor professors in any counseling programs.