USC vs. UCSD

[hotlanta]

Due to time and financial limits I have to pick between these two programs to interview at. Im leaning towards UCSD since they got back to me earlier, I hear they are less malignant and they have just as good of a program in a nicer area. I have no desire to do trauma surgery. Any reason anyone can think of why USC is a better program? I hear that the main draw, autonomy at the county hospital is drying up...any truth to this? Any help would be appreciated.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[dpmd]

I don't think the autonomy at county will ever dry up. I have scrubbed in plenty of cases where the attending came in to sign the green sheet and say hi, then took off. The residents do rotate at the university hospital as well though, and since this is where the private, insured patients are seen I think the attendings are more hands on (I can't say for sure because I only rotated on the ortho service at the U and the other surgical subspecialties might be different).

That said, I can't think of anything more painful than having to wait till 3 am to take the appy or chole to the OR (the one who presented to the ER the day before but wasn't seen until the next afternoon, but you couldn't take to the OR because there wasn't any available) when on the non trauma service at county. It seemed like every call we would spend a good portion of the day dicking around waiting for an OR then spend the night doing lap choles with the occasional ex-lap for peritonitis tossed in.

As for the malignancy, several of the attendings have had to attend anger management classes (I believe one in particular has been several times and is much improved-he no longer throws instruments AT people). The fact that they had to can be seen as a sign of how bad it is or can be a sign that the program is trying to reform. But isn't some malignancy expected in surgery (especially in certain subspecialties)?

 

[hotlanta]

I don't think the autonomy at county will ever dry up. I have scrubbed in plenty of cases where the attending came in to sign the green sheet and say hi, then took off. The residents do rotate at the university hospital as well though, and since this is where the private, insured patients are seen I think the attendings are more hands on (I can't say for sure because I only rotated on the ortho service at the U and the other surgical subspecialties might be different).

That said, I can't think of anything more painful than having to wait till 3 am to take the appy or chole to the OR (the one who presented to the ER the day before but wasn't seen until the next afternoon, but you couldn't take to the OR because there wasn't any available) when on the non trauma service at county. It seemed like every call we would spend a good portion of the day dicking around waiting for an OR then spend the night doing lap choles with the occasional ex-lap for peritonitis tossed in.

As for the malignancy, several of the attendings have had to attend anger management classes (I believe one in particular has been several times and is much improved-he no longer throws instruments AT people). The fact that they had to can be seen as a sign of how bad it is or can be a sign that the program is trying to reform. But isn't some malignancy expected in surgery (especially in certain subspecialties)?

Thanks for the input.
I hope the county experience stays the same, sounds like a great thing. Or at least it is for the residents.
I dont mind malignancy, I dont mind long hours, but I better get something in return. A great program w/ malignancy where I will learn a ton I will sprint too. A ho-hum program with malignancy is not worth my time.

 

[stebb]

If trauma is NOT your thing...then by all means...USC is NOT your thing. That place is the busiest trauma center in the US....its just nuts there...but if you want to train at a place that will kick your butt at the same time allow you to help out lots of folks who need help and learn a hell of a lot....LAC-USC is your place.

 

[boston]

I dont mind malignancy, I dont mind long hours, but I better get something in return. A great program w/ malignancy where I will learn a ton I will sprint too.

I shared the same sentiment as you when I was interviewing for residencies and during my intern year. In fact, I told myself I didn't care how malignant, how many long hours, or how much hard work I had to put in -- I simply wanted to get the best training and become the best surgeon and physician I could be. So I applied to many academic programs and when I made my rank list, I made it without regard to "malignant" reputations. But after 3 years of gen surg residency, I've realized the limits of my tolerance for pain.

Long hours are one thing. But if you are working long hours and putting in maximal effort to learn and genuinely trying take good care of patients and on some rotations still get constantly beat down by a particular attending, it can start to get to you. We all chose this particular mountain to climb because we thought it would maximize our happiness and fulfillment in life. Look, I don't mind working hard in a nurturing environment. But if you are working like a dog and rarely get a pat on the back, you start to question your priorities and wonder if maybe you've been climbing the wrong mountain all these years. And you start to look at other mountains, even though you are already halfway up. You realize it's a long way up if you choose to continue onward, but it's also a long way down if you want to switch to a different mountain. So for now, you'll keep going and hope for the best. I realize we are not the same person, but I say all this in spite of still having a passion for the OR and love for surgery.

Anyway it's difficult to judge how "malignant" a program is on interview day without having spent a few weeks there. It's like getting married after one date. You only notice the little quirks of the other person after spending some time together. Also, "malignant" means different things to different people. Anyway, I do commend your earnest attitude -- you sound like a good person. To be honest, I don't have much practical advice to offer -- just saying be careful what you wish for, that's all.

 

[slingblade]

I did 4 weeks in the USC Burn unit this year, and I have an application in there, but I'm not going to interview there. I felt bad for the staff I worked with, because in one resident's words he was "really a sick man." He suffered some kind of personality disorder where he had to dominate everyone around him. The residents got along with each other like they were used car sales men (they all worked at the same hospital but there was no loyalty, and were only looking out for themselves), and the way to do well was to talk about other people when they weren't there and get them into trouble with staff. The scariest part was that people who acted like this don't see it as a problem, and will tell you that their program is better than others in town, because open conflict where you know you are in trouble, is better than being in trouble and not knowing it. The residents also don't like their program director. The training is great at LAC, and the other services may be better, but I doubt it. There will always be someone who has to live in LA, and would feel at home in this inviornment, but it ain't me. I worked with a resident from UCLA Harbor who was excellent, but heard that the other UCLA wasn't that good. I scheduled this rotation, and then looked at scutwork about USC which was stupid on my part, because the negative things were accurate. I don't regret it, because it really reinforced that I really want to be at a place where I like the people. My school is very benign, and I was lulled into thinking that surgeons couldn't be as bad as I heard.
I know better now paw!!!!

 

[driedcaribou]

Thanks guys for taking the time to write your experiences here....

It's really helpful to those of us who will be applying for Gen Surg in the future.

 

[hotlanta]

Thanks for the advice guys. Decided to stick with UCSD.

 

[cilia2007]

Not quite related to the topic of the forum, but on sub-Is, you don't have a lot of time to browse! Wondering if anyone has USC's interview dates for this cycle? I must be on their "backup" list or something, because I haven't heard.

Thanks so much.

 

[hotlanta]

Not quite related to the topic of the forum, but on sub-Is, you don't have a lot of time to browse! Wondering if anyone has USC's interview dates for this cycle? I must be on their "backup" list or something, because I haven't heard.

Thanks so much.

here they are:

1st Session - Saturday, December 9, 2006

2nd Session - Saturday, January 6, 2007

3rd Session - Saturday, January 13, 2007

 

[cilia2007]

Thanks...they sent me the invite like, the day after I posted this! I'll probably see you at some point, since it seems like we applied at the same places...😳

 

[FreakyFriday]

Due to time and financial limits I have to pick between these two programs to interview at. Im leaning towards UCSD since they got back to me earlier, I hear they are less malignant and they have just as good of a program in a nicer area. I have no desire to do trauma surgery. Any reason anyone can think of why USC is a better program? I hear that the main draw, autonomy at the county hospital is drying up...any truth to this? Any help would be appreciated.

Assuming that you already made your interview decision and went with UCSD.
This will be helpful to find out (without directly asking of course) during your interview:

Malignant means different things to different people.
UCSD is known to have malignant personalities. It's a beautiful location but you have to figure out if the local will compensate for the abuse.

Whereas USC is known to have hard working hours and too much autonomy. Autonomy is good WHEN you know what you are doing but it's bad when you are teaching yourself and picking up a lifetime of bad habits.

Overall, I prefer the USC version of malignant. Work hard with good people. That is only my 2 cents, you should talk to as many residents as possible on interview day to get the real deal.