Using Board Certification to replace post-doc hours?

[oldschooliscool]

I’m juggling several different career paths for immediately after internship, with offers to work a clinical-focused post-doc, offers to work a research-focused post-doc, and offers for faculty positions at a liberal arts college and at a more traditional doctoral-program at a university.

I would very much enjoy taking the faculty position offers, as that’s what I’ve always envisioned for myself. However, I also know that there is a decent chance I’ll want to move full-time into my own private practice in the future, and here’s where I run into an issue: post-doc hours.

The formal post-doc positions can provide post-doc hours very easily. The faculty position at a university can get me somewhat there. The liberal arts college can’t really do much to help me, so that’s probably out.

However, upon further research, it looks like there are a few ways to skirt around this issue:

Solution #1 - Get licensed somewhere simple like Alabama or West Virginia, and use PSYPACT to practice a telehealth practice in most states. This may preclude me from getting licensed in any state if my post-doc hours aren’t good enough, but I can at least have a remote practice.

Solution #2 - Get ABPP Board-Certified in Clinical Psychology. I can do this by getting licensed in an easy state (like Alabama or West Virginia), practicing for a few years (can set this up while still a professor), then pursue board certification. Once board-certified, I should be able to get a license in *most* states, even though my post-doc hours may not be impressive.

Solution #2 is looking very tempting to me, as it feels like I can have my cake (go straight to faculty, with minimal post-doc clinical hours) and eat it too (later on down the road have a private practice in almost any state). Am I way off base here? Is it true that Board Certification can be gained even if your post-doc was lackluster (as far as clinical experience goes), and that it can be used to get licensed in more strict states?

Apologies for the wall of text. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

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[biscuitsbiscuits]

Just one thing to point out about the psypact route. My understanding is that in order to provide services for clients in psypact states, you must be physically located in your "home state," which I believe is the state in which you are licensed. So being licensed in Alabama, joining psypact, and then practicing out of another state wouldn't be in line with that. Not sure if that's what you were considering.

From the psypact site:
"At this time, PSYPACT requires that a psychologist be physically located in their declared Home State of licensure while providing telepsychological services. For the practice of telepsychology under PSYPACT, Home State is the PSYPACT state where you are licensed to practice and physically located when telepsychological services are delivered. For more information please see the Legal Advisory Opinion: Home State and Authority to Practice Interjurisdictional Telepsychology."

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Just one thing to point out about the psypact route. My understanding is that in order to provide services for clients in psypact states, you must be physically located in your "home state," which I believe is the state in which you are licensed. So being licensed in Alabama, joining psypact, and then practicing out of another state wouldn't be in line with that. Not sure if that's what you were considering.

From the psypact site:
"At this time, PSYPACT requires that a psychologist be physically located in their declared Home State of licensure while providing telepsychological services. For the practice of telepsychology under PSYPACT, Home State is the PSYPACT state where you are licensed to practice and physically located when telepsychological services are delivered. For more information please see the Legal Advisory Opinion: Home State and Authority to Practice Interjurisdictional Telepsychology."

Yep, this is true. Your "home" state needs to be the one in which you spend most of your time physically practicing, regardless of wherever else you're licensed.

The ABPP route may be an option, but it could also vary by state; it looks like it'd work in one of the states in which I'm licensed, for example, which allows applicants using ABPP endorsement to skip the supervised experience section. If you really can't get the postdoc hours, ABPP is probably a more flexible and safer bet than PSYPACT. It may also make the PSYPACT application process easier (I can't remember off-hand).

 

[summerbabe]

Agreed with the above. If your faculty location is in both a PsyPact state and a state that allows for ‘easy’ licensure post internship, that could be a good option.

I know a few people who got boarded in general clinical psych. Outside of neuro (since that’s more often linked to a condition of employment), I think most people who get boarded do so a handful of years into practice, rather than immediately after internship or postdoc.

If you want to do that asap, look at the specific requirements for boarding. From a colleague that did the Clinical Psych boarding recently, I think they had to submit case(s) as part of their process.

Not sure what that entailed exactly (maybe live recordings with consent?) but you’ll need to somewhere where you can practice or provisionally practice and have all those ducks in a row. Good luck!

 

[PsyDr]

Like any work around, the answer is: It is easier to do the standard thing. Workarounds could potentially work, but it might not. This decision could affect your entire career, ability to move to another geographic location, etc. Make decisions accordingly. This

Solution #3: Find some community psychologist group, do a two year informal post doc that follows APPIC guidelines (i.e., 25% of you time has to be in clinical services). Get them to agree that 75% of your "post doc" can be spent in academic stuff, while 25% is spent in clinical stuff. That's one hour per work day for two years. You might have to offer to pay them, or do the work for free.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Like any work around, the answer is: It is easier to do the standard thing. Workarounds could potentially work, but it might not. This decision could affect your entire career, ability to move to another geographic location, etc. Make decisions accordingly. This

Solution #3: Find some community psychologist group, do a two year informal post doc that follows APPIC guidelines (i.e., 25% of you time has to be in clinical services). Get them to agree that 75% of your "post doc" can be spent in academic stuff, while 25% is spent in clinical stuff. That's one hour per work day for two years. You might have to offer to pay them, or do the work for free.

I was going to recommend something similar to #3 as well.

 

[oldschooliscool]

Appreciate everyone's comments on the PSYPACT route; the "home state" is definitely something to keep in mind. Accordingly, that makes me think that the Board Certification route would be better to look toward.

Like any work around, the answer is: It is easier to do the standard thing. Workarounds could potentially work, but it might not. This decision could affect your entire career, ability to move to another geographic location, etc. Make decisions accordingly. This

Solution #3: Find some community psychologist group, do a two year informal post doc that follows APPIC guidelines (i.e., 25% of you time has to be in clinical services). Get them to agree that 75% of your "post doc" can be spent in academic stuff, while 25% is spent in clinical stuff. That's one hour per work day for two years. You might have to offer to pay them, or do the work for free.

I really like the idea for #3. The university that told me they'll be offering me a position (still waiting on the formal letter to begin negotiations) has a PsyD program in-house that I'll be helping with. I'm thinking there might be a way for me to get my "post doc" hours this way. I guess my biggest hesitation is that some states are pretty explicit on what they're looking for in regard to licensure. For example:

- Nebraska - 1,500 hours must be at the post-doc level, and must be one hour of supervision per week, and 1,000 hours face-to-face.
- New Jersey - 1,750 as post-doc. Each year must consist of at least 1,000 client contact hours, 200 hours of supervision (e.g. 4 HOURS PER WEEK), and 550 hours of support/administrative work.
- North Carolina - 1,500 hours as post-doc, 25% must be direct clinical care, and two hours of supervision per week.
- Pennsylvania - 1,750 post doc hours, half of which are direct client care. Two hours per week of supervision.

And so on. When I consider states like this, it seems like there's no way to do an informal post-doc while a faculty member and still meet these requirements. In that case, my only hope (if I wanted to be licensed there) is probably something like ABPP board certification, as I think these states have carve-outs for that.

 

[Ollie123]

First - congrats on the offers and it is great to have options.

This is not an uncommon problem. Unfortunately, academic success can hurt your ability to get licensed many places because of how licensure works in some states. I was in a different but-somewhat-related situation. I got an NIH K23 and an R03 basically right away when starting post-doc, so effectively had 100% research time but nowhere near enough hours for licensure. Was a pain, but we were able to work it out with the institution, NIH and the licensing board, though it took some work.

I would also suggest something like #3 above. If this is an R1/R2, they will likely be familiar with it. I would even suggest trying to negotiate additional course releases to facilitate doing clinical work so you can get licensed. If they have a clinical program they may want you to be able to supervise so this can work in their favor. Even if not, being licensed does carry some minimal value for grant application (my only real reason for keeping my license at this point beyond just having it as a backup career if higher education collapses and I can't find anything else to do). If they're hiring clinicians fresh out of grad school they may even be expecting this or have paths to offer.

 

[Sanman]

Appreciate everyone's comments on the PSYPACT route; the "home state" is definitely something to keep in mind. Accordingly, that makes me think that the Board Certification route would be better to look toward.



I really like the idea for #3. The university that told me they'll be offering me a position (still waiting on the formal letter to begin negotiations) has a PsyD program in-house that I'll be helping with. I'm thinking there might be a way for me to get my "post doc" hours this way. I guess my biggest hesitation is that some states are pretty explicit on what they're looking for in regard to licensure. For example:

- Nebraska - 1,500 hours must be at the post-doc level, and must be one hour of supervision per week, and 1,000 hours face-to-face.
- New Jersey - 1,750 as post-doc. Each year must consist of at least 1,000 client contact hours, 200 hours of supervision (e.g. 4 HOURS PER WEEK), and 550 hours of support/administrative work.
- North Carolina - 1,500 hours as post-doc, 25% must be direct clinical care, and two hours of supervision per week.
- Pennsylvania - 1,750 post doc hours, half of which are direct client care. Two hours per week of supervision.

And so on. When I consider states like this, it seems like there's no way to do an informal post-doc while a faculty member and still meet these requirements. In that case, my only hope (if I wanted to be licensed there) is probably something like ABPP board certification, as I think these states have carve-outs for that.

I would not worry about being licensed in every state. Focus on the state that is offering you this job. Most of these states have senior licensing options after 5 or 10 years with a license in another state. If you need supervision to meet the requirement, this can always be arranged closer to the time you want to move to a specific state after speaking to the board. You can also arrange to be supervised in the new state if you accept a new position. That said, if you arrange two hours of supervision a week now, you will be fine for most states.

 

[SLB-CO]

I did "option 3". A position came available in the program and university I wanted to spend my career in while I was on internship, and I was unsure when they'd be hiring next, so took the chance instead of doing a formal postdoc. I negotiated course releases and built funding for external supervision into my start-up package. Spent 1.5 days/week during my first two years in direct service provision before I sought licensure. Fast forward seven years and I'm tenured, promoted, licensed in a few states, and have a small private practice on the side. Look at what activities the post-doc can consist of where you may eventually want to be licensed and talk to the board if you're unclear; I'll bet it's broader than it seems on the surface in many states. And don't forget to negotiate to include all direct and indirect licensure costs into your start-up package (time, space, supervision, EHR, EPPP materials and test, therapy materials, etc.).