Using residency research towards a PhD?

[shan564]

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I've been thinking about this idea for a while, but I haven't yet asked anybody who actually knows what they're talking about.

I've wanted to do a PhD in psychiatry/neuroscience for several years, but I wasn't able to do a formal MD/PhD program. I'd rather not take time to do a full PhD right now, since I need to start paying off my student loans before the interest gets out of hand.

I'm still an MS4, but all of my top residency choices offer a lot of protected research time. I think that psychiatry residency is somewhat particularly conducive to this, since we can have almost a whole year for research/electives. Plus, I'd be able to get a head start on IRB approvals and grant applications early on, so that downtime wouldn't affect me as much as it would affect a full-time PhD student. And I could do a literature review in my downtime before the start of residency.

My understanding is that combined MD/PhD students usually do the whole PhD in 3 years by using their MS1/MS2 classroom years in lieu of PhD coursework. So in my case, I'd have that background, plus the didactics from residency. And I can do some part-time work throughout residency (and use that time to do things that require a lot of longitudinal time, such as 48-hour incubations... or waiting for a gene sequence... or waiting for a reagent to come in from the factory... or waiting for an IRB approval... etc)

So, in an optimal situation, I'd end up with 1-2 years of work left after residency, which I might be able to stretch out over several years part-time.

Is there any precedent for this? Or maybe a formal program? Or am I dreaming? Or is it a completely pointless idea?

 

[vistaril]

I've been thinking about this idea for a while, but I haven't yet asked anybody who actually knows what they're talking about.

I've wanted to do a PhD in psychiatry/neuroscience for several years, but I wasn't able to do a formal MD/PhD program. I'd rather not take time to do a full PhD right now, since I need to start paying off my student loans before the interest gets out of hand.

I'm still an MS4, but all of my top residency choices offer a lot of protected research time. I think that psychiatry residency is somewhat particularly conducive to this, since we can have almost a whole year for research/electives. Plus, I'd be able to get a head start on IRB approvals and grant applications early on, so that downtime wouldn't affect me as much as it would affect a full-time PhD student. And I could do a literature review in my downtime before the start of residency.

My understanding is that combined MD/PhD students usually do the whole PhD in 3 years by using their MS1/MS2 classroom years in lieu of PhD coursework. So in my case, I'd have that background, plus the didactics from residency. And I can do some part-time work throughout residency (and use that time to do things that require a lot of longitudinal time, such as 48-hour incubations... or waiting for a gene sequence... or waiting for a reagent to come in from the factory... or waiting for an IRB approval... etc)

So, in an optimal situation, I'd end up with 1-2 years of work left after residency, which I might be able to stretch out over several years part-time.

Is there any precedent for this? Or maybe a formal program? Or am I dreaming? Or is it a completely pointless idea?

this is not going to be possible.


If you are interested in research you can still find stuff. But attaining a phd here is not something you get to by retroactively piecemealing various things together to drastically shorten.....the idea of getting credit for residency didactics(!) or preclinical med school coursework(outside of an mstp med school) is just not reality.

 

[shan564]

this is not going to be possible.


If you are interested in research you can still find stuff. But attaining a phd here is not something you get to by retroactively piecemealing various things together to drastically shorten.....the idea of getting credit for residency didactics(!) or preclinical med school coursework(outside of an mstp med school) is just not reality.

Well, I was hoping to do it with a prospective plan, not just by retroactively piecemealing things together later. But I didn't realize that preclinical coursework could only be applied if you're coming from an MSTP school. So I guess it's not a possibility. Thanks for the input.

 

[splik]

not being funny, but it's clear you don't want to do a PhD. You want to do research and you want to have a PhD but you don't want to do a PhD. I don't blame you, I decided against it in the end, the prospect fills me with dread. You can't do a PhD in 1-2 years! Even in MSTP programs it would be very unusual for someone to complete their PhD in 3 years, 4 is typically the aim, but it is not uncommon for students to spend 5 years on their PhD. The idea of counting residency didactics is laughable given they are not part of a graduate course, do not have credits, do not have coursework associated with them, and would not be in the field of study. The level of statistics, research methods etc covered in residency tends to be fairly basic.

Residency gives you time to do research that might prepare you to apply to do a PhD afterwards if that is what you wanted. It is of course fairly rare for PhDs to be done post-residency but people do epidemiology, environmental health, policy, literature, anthropology etc occasionally. What is more common is to do a 2-year research fellowship where you learn research skills, get to bash out some publications, and potentially prepare to submit an application for your own k-award. few people who do nih or other fellowships even end up applying and/or getting k-awards or establishing successful academic careers.

 

[shan564]

Yeah, I guess it was a silly idea. I don't have any experience with MSTPs, so I guess I was mistaken to think that they use their MS1 and MS2 years to substitute for PhD coursework and do all of the research component in 3 years. My research experience in the US is mostly limited to a couple of years in a lab that didn't have any grad students, so I never got a chance to learn the ins and outs of how a PhD actually works in the US. In Australia, it's common practice for doctors to take two years off from residency to do a PhD and then come back to the clinical world... but I think a PhD is less rigorous there. I think that's why the idea even came to my head.

That said, if I'd been able to get into an MSTP, it would have been a no-brainer. My main excuse for not doing a PhD now is the med school loans. Maybe I'm just using that as an excuse because I don't really want to do a PhD, as you say... but for what it's worth, I briefly started working towards a PhD before I decided that I really wanted to practice clinical medicine and do translational research, which would require the MD.

But I guess I don't really need the PhD. You're definitely right that I kind of want to have the PhD. I'm probably better off doing a research fellowship.

 

[twright]

I've been thinking about this idea for a while, but I haven't yet asked anybody who actually knows what they're talking about.

I've wanted to do a PhD in psychiatry/neuroscience for several years, but I wasn't able to do a formal MD/PhD program. I'd rather not take time to do a full PhD right now, since I need to start paying off my student loans before the interest gets out of hand.

I'm still an MS4, but all of my top residency choices offer a lot of protected research time. I think that psychiatry residency is somewhat particularly conducive to this, since we can have almost a whole year for research/electives. Plus, I'd be able to get a head start on IRB approvals and grant applications early on, so that downtime wouldn't affect me as much as it would affect a full-time PhD student. And I could do a literature review in my downtime before the start of residency.

My understanding is that combined MD/PhD students usually do the whole PhD in 3 years by using their MS1/MS2 classroom years in lieu of PhD coursework. So in my case, I'd have that background, plus the didactics from residency. And I can do some part-time work throughout residency (and use that time to do things that require a lot of longitudinal time, such as 48-hour incubations... or waiting for a gene sequence... or waiting for a reagent to come in from the factory... or waiting for an IRB approval... etc)

So, in an optimal situation, I'd end up with 1-2 years of work left after residency, which I might be able to stretch out over several years part-time.

Is there any precedent for this? Or maybe a formal program? Or am I dreaming? Or is it a completely pointless idea?

My understanding is that MSTP students take coursework during their MS1/MS2 years (and, during the intervening time, if necessary), not that they "substitute" MS1/MS2 didactic time for PhD coursework. Most finish in 8 years total.

In my case, I did my PhD in 3 years but that is because I took my PhD coursework in the afternoons and evenings.

All that being said, if you want to do a research career then you are probably looking at:

a. 4 year research-track residency. The work that you do during PGY3 and PGY4, and perhaps to a lesser extend PGY2, is supposed to set you up for getting into a postdoctoral research fellowship (e.g., like a T32).

b. T32 programs are generally 2, maybe 3 years. The goal here is not to get a PhD. The goal is to learn how to do research and get your name onto some papers. By the time you are headed for 5 first author papers in decent journals then you will be in good shape to apply for a K01/K08/K23. It takes about 1.5 years, assuming at least one resubmission, to get a K.

c. The K award is a "mentored" award, meaning that you receive funding from the NIH to turn you into an independent researcher (and the single metric for that is getting an R01).

There really isn't time to get a PhD, nor is it necessary. Plenty of "independent researchers" out there who have successfully transitioned out of their K's.

 

[SmallBird]

I explored ways of doing something similar. The quickest way I could find would be to do some coursework in PGY4 year, and then do a PhD through Investigative Medicine, which would take a further three years. In the integrated child/adult psych research track at Yale people are able to get within 1 year of a PhD by the end of residency, but that is a very specific program. Ultimately I think I will just do the research I want anyway, and if I feel I have the time consider an MPH, which I would be able to do during residency.

 

[shan564]

I explored ways of doing something similar. The quickest way I could find would be to do some coursework in PGY4 year, and then do a PhD through Investigative Medicine, which would take a further three years. In the integrated child/adult psych research track at Yale people are able to get within 1 year of a PhD by the end of residency, but that is a very specific program. Ultimately I think I will just do the research I want anyway, and if I feel I have the time consider an MPH, which I would be able to do during residency.

Thanks, that's exactly the info I was looking for. Even if it's not the best route to follow, it's nice to have an idea of what would be required.

 

[member2721]

Thanks, that's exactly the info I was looking for. Even if it's not the best route to follow, it's nice to have an idea of what would be required.

For what's it worth, Sinai is applying for NIH funding for a 3 year PhD program for psych residents. It is Ron rieders pet project.

 

[shan564]

For what's it worth, Sinai is applying for NIH funding for a 3 year PhD program for psych residents. It is Ron rieders pet project.

Huh, interesting. Good to know. They didn't invite me for an interview, but I hope they can set a precedent that I might be able to follow down the road...

 

[member2721]

For what's it worth, Sinai is applying for NIH funding for a 3 year PhD program for psych residents. It is Ron rieders pet project.

Here is also another opportunity for faculty fast track, but specific to child psychiatry.


Dear Colleagues,

I would like to tell you about an exciting postdoctoral research training program based in the Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at Stanford University. I hope that you will pass information about this opportunity on to your graduate students and postdoctoral scholars.

The Child Psychiatry and Development research training program is designed to prepare talented researchers for successful academic careers in interdisciplinary-translational research. Trainees spend on average 80% of their time conducting clinical or basic research and 20% of their time in career development activities that will help them learn how to manage the multiple demands of a future faculty position. The training is supplemented by workshops and seminars on research methods, career opportunities in academia, and essential skills such as grant writing, mentoring, lab management, and scientific presentations. Two – three year appointments, funded by the NIMH, are available to qualified candidates.

The application deadline is ongoing, however we encourage you to submit your application materials as soon as possible. Applicants must be U.S. citizens or permanent residents at the time of their appointment to the program. Commitment to the goals of the program, strong academic and research credentials, and an interest in teaching and mentoring will be important criteria used in the selection process. For additional information on the program and application procedures, please visit our website at http://cibsr.stanford.edu/training-careers/fellowship.html or contact Ms. Reiko Riley, the Program Administrator. I have also attached a printable flier describing the program.

Thank you for your help in getting the word out about this exceptional training program.

Sincerely,

Allan L. Reiss
--------------------------------------------
Allan L. Reiss, M.D.
Robbins Professor and Director, Center for Interdisciplinary Brain Sciences Research
Vice Chair, Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences
Professor of Radiology and of Pediatrics
Stanford University School of Medicine
401 Quarry Road
Stanford, CA 94305-5795
http://med.stanford.edu/profiles/Allan_Reiss
http://cibsr.stanford.edu

 

[billypilgrim37]

Here is also another opportunity for faculty fast track, but specific to child psychiatry.

This sounds great, but at any top research institution, this is essentially just what a T32 entails. At least, if you're going to do a T32 at an institution, and they DON'T ALREADY offer all of this level of support, then you shouldn't do a T32 there!

Point being, this isn't special. The same things should be available at MGH or Pittsburgh or Michigan or UTSW or UCSD or...

 

[splik]

i will reiterate to those that are foreign that NIH funded programs are not available to us unless you have permanent residency. so if you want to do one of these and you happen to be on a visa, you might want to go somewhere they will sponsor your application for permanent residency. this will usually mean you need to be a research superstar or can be made to sound like one in the first place.

 

[member2721]

Point being, this isn't special. The same things should be available at MGH or Pittsburgh or Michigan or UTSW or UCSD or...

Thanks for the info.
How do you find out whether a specific program's child division has T32 training grants available? Do you know of a public database, or do you have to speak with each program?

 

[billypilgrim37]

Each program. They are usually through a particular PI.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile

 

[twright]

Thanks for the info.
How do you find out whether a specific program's child division has T32 training grants available? Do you know of a public database, or do you have to speak with each program?

If I had to guess, I'd say that many of the competitive, research-heavy institutes have a T32. You can search for specific ones here: http://projectreporter.nih.gov/

Also, you needn't necessarily limit yourself to looking at T32's in child divisions. For example, at my institution there are many T32's, including one that is run by an HIV researcher. He prioritizes ID fellows but has taken psychiatry postdocs in the past if their area of interest is HIV-related. Same would go, I presume, for a rheum T32, etc.

 

[geripsyched]

Although I am lukewarm about MPH's (they often seem like "fluffy" expensive degrees analogous to what MBA's have become), I think an MPH may be valuable if you avoid the content-laden courses in favor of the courses that teach you technical skills (e.g., statistics, SAS programming, grant writing). And if you go to a residency program or find a post-doc training program that will pay for these classes, all the better! There are many workshops that are also quite helpful for developing more advanced skills (once you have a good understanding of biostats and SAS). If you are able to develop the technical skills to conduct sophisticated data analyses, you could be well positioned for a clinically-oriented research career. I have a PhD in a public health science and, once I became comfortable with stats and SAS, it has been easy to pump out papers (2-3 articles/year).

There are many high quality datasets that are publicly available and easily downloaded. The problem is that those who are content experts (psychiatrists) frequently lack the skill set to analyze these databases. And biostats support is frequently tied to grant money, so conducting secondary data analyses is much more difficult when relying on biostats help. Even if biostats help is available, the process can be much more tedious - hours of meetings followed by weeks of waiting for the results followed by hours of meetings trying to interpret what the biostats people actually did. Once you are familiar with a database, you can easily conduct a round of analyses in a morning or afternoon. Assuming you know how to use PubMed, design a research question, and test hypotheses, all you need is content familiarity (which med school/residency should give you), technical skills (usually from classes), internet access, statistical programming software, and a computer!

 

[shan564]

Although I am lukewarm about MPH's (they often seem like "fluffy" expensive degrees analogous to what MBA's have become), I think an MPH may be valuable if you avoid the content-laden courses in favor of the courses that teach you technical skills (e.g., statistics, SAS programming, grant writing). And if you go to a residency program or find a post-doc training program that will pay for these classes, all the better! There are many workshops that are also quite helpful for developing more advanced skills (once you have a good understanding of biostats and SAS). If you are able to develop the technical skills to conduct sophisticated data analyses, you could be well positioned for a clinically-oriented research career. I have a PhD in a public health science and, once I became comfortable with stats and SAS, it has been easy to pump out papers (2-3 articles/year).

There are many high quality datasets that are publicly available and easily downloaded. The problem is that those who are content experts (psychiatrists) frequently lack the skill set to analyze these databases. And biostats support is frequently tied to grant money, so conducting secondary data analyses is much more difficult when relying on biostats help. Even if biostats help is available, the process can be much more tedious - hours of meetings followed by weeks of waiting for the results followed by hours of meetings trying to interpret what the biostats people actually did. Once you are familiar with a database, you can easily conduct a round of analyses in a morning or afternoon. Assuming you know how to use PubMed, design a research question, and test hypotheses, all you need is content familiarity (which med school/residency should give you), technical skills (usually from classes), internet access, statistical programming software, and a computer!

That's actually a lot of what I had in mind. I actually enjoy playing with data...