USMLE Step 3 and Rads fellowships

[radad]

Looking for some advice.
Just got my Step3 score back a few weeks ago and scored in the 210s. Much lower than expected from practice tests. Step 1 and 2 are fine with no other red flags.
I was lucky enough to get into a top 40 program for residency. Will this affect my chances of getting a good fellowship? Not sure what fellowship I'm interested in yet.
Thanks in advance.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[guytakingboards]

Generally not a big deal at most programs, in any sub-specialty. There are no standardized tests in fellowship; so PD's mostly care if you can get the work done. Step 3 would be far below your letters and general reputation in consideration.

 

[Smoking Jay Cutler]

Looking for some advice.
Just got my Step3 score back a few weeks ago and scored in the 210s. Much lower than expected from practice tests. Step 1 and 2 are fine with no other red flags.
I was lucky enough to get into a top 40 program for residency. Will this affect my chances of getting a good fellowship? Not sure what fellowship I'm interested in yet.
Thanks in advance.

Will this affect my chances of getting a good fellowship?

No

 

[Dave1980]

Looking for some advice.
Just got my Step3 score back a few weeks ago and scored in the 210s. Much lower than expected from practice tests. Step 1 and 2 are fine with no other red flags.
I was lucky enough to get into a top 40 program for residency. Will this affect my chances of getting a good fellowship? Not sure what fellowship I'm interested in yet.
Thanks in advance.

lol no not at all. also wtf is a top 40 program? there is no good ranking system and any kind of attempt outside the top 10 or 20 is absolute garbage.

 

[GadRads]

lol no not at all. also wtf is a top 40 program? there is no good ranking system and any kind of attempt outside the top 10 or 20 is absolute garbage.

Is there even a meaningful ranking for top 10 or 20? I don't think those rankings even say much.

 

[radad]

Is there even a meaningful ranking for top 10 or 20? I don't think those rankings even say much.

lol no not at all. also wtf is a top 40 program? there is no good ranking system and any kind of attempt outside the top 10 or 20 is absolute garbage.

Thank you all for your replies. This is helpful. When I was applying (2020), top 40 was an arbitrary proxy denoting an academic program that had some sort of name recognition. Often times, people will use a combination of aunt-minnie and doximity to determine which programs fall within the top 40. Of course, being an ACGME approved program means it has a certain standard that residents receive their training, so we all come out relatively well trained. This is just the cut-off designation that current residents use. Whether or not it has merit is another well discussed thread.

 

[Dave1980]

Is there even a meaningful ranking for top 10 or 20? I don't think those rankings even say much.

There is no actual ranking but I think I could name the top 10 programs in no particular order. Same with top 20 already that would be more open to debate.

 

[Cognovi]

Is there even a meaningful ranking for top 10 or 20? I don't think those rankings even say much.

The Doximity rankings go like this: they ask a bunch of people what the top 5 programs are, then they rank the programs by the number of times they are listed. Therefore after about 15 or so, the number of times a program is nominated is dwindlingly small and thus the ranking is not meaningful.

The 'top 40' statement alludes to the parallel use of top 40 by the NRMP Charting Outcomes when referring to the top 40 US medical schools. These are ranked by NIH funding and generally denote a research-heavy institution with name recognition in academic circles. This would correlate but not align exactly with the concept of a top 40 radiology residency, but it is a transparent metric. You could formulate a parallel ranking by NIH funding to radiology departments.

Aunt Minnie award nominations are determined by secret committee so therefore it is hard to take meaning from power rankings derived from the Minnies.

 

[Cognovi]

You could formulate a parallel ranking by NIH funding to radiology departments.

In case anyone is curious... Diagnostic Radiology Departments by NIH funding, 2017

1. MGH
2. U Penn
3. Stanford
4. UCSF
5. WashU (MIR)
6. Hopkins
7. Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center (affiliated with Cornell)
8. Mayo
9. Yale
10. BWH
11. U Michigan
12. U Minnesota
13. NYU
14. U Washington
15. UCSD
16. U Pittsburgh
17. Columbia
18. Mount Sinai
19. Duke
20. Moffitt Cancer Center (affiliated with U South Florida)
21. Cornell
22. UNC
23. Wake Forest
24. Indiana U
25. U Utah
26. U Virginia
27. Northwestern
28. U Chicago
29. UC Davis
30. UCLA
31. U Maryland
32. Jefferson
33. Case Western
34. MD Anderson Cancer Center (affiliated with U Texas Houston)
35. U Arizona
36. U Iowa
37. Emory
38. U Massachusetts
39. U Wisconsin
40. BIDMC
41. Ohio State
42. UTSW
43. SUNY Stony Brook
44. UAB
45. U Miami
46. Vanderbilt
47. Medical College of Wisconsin
48. Dartmouth
49. Medical College of Georgia
50. Michigan State
51. U Texas HSC San Antonio
52. UC Irvine
53. Penn State
54. USC
55. U Colorado
56. MUSC
57. U Illinois
58. Baylor
59. OHSU

 

[CallMeBigJeff]

I go to a top 63 program

 

[Dave1980]

I go to a top 63 program

lol you must go to program #63

 

[SeisK]

Is there even a meaningful ranking for top 10 or 20? I don't think those rankings even say much.

If you want to do academics—teaching, research—then yes, it matters.

If you want to go to PP and do your thing, no it doesn’t.

 

[Dave1980]

If you want to do academics—teaching, research—then yes, it matters.

If you want to go to PP and do your thing, no it doesn’t.

at least for radiology it doesn't matter. what field are in you and are you an attending?

numerous ivory tower academic places will jump at the opportunity to hire you and pay you 2/3 (or less) of what you are worth in radiology.

 

[CallMeBigJeff]

lol you must go to program #63

That's the joke. I'm making fun of these stupid rankings. If anyone says "Top 40" I'm certain their program is somewhere between 30-40. I sincerely doubt "top" places like UCSF and MGH call themselves that, they know what they are and when someone says "Top 30/40/50/etc" we all know what's going on.

 

[Dave1980]

That's the joke. I'm making fun of these stupid rankings. If anyone says "Top 40" I'm certain their program is somewhere between 30-40. I sincerely doubt "top" places like UCSF and MGH call themselves that, they know what they are and when someone says "Top 30/40/50/etc" we all know what's going on.

yes i got the joke

 

[RadiologyPD]

Looking for some advice.
Just got my Step3 score back a few weeks ago and scored in the 210s. Much lower than expected from practice tests. Step 1 and 2 are fine with no other red flags.
I was lucky enough to get into a top 40 program for residency. Will this affect my chances of getting a good fellowship? Not sure what fellowship I'm interested in yet.
Thanks in advance.

Fellowships won't really analyze your Step 3 score.

BUT--my advice is to study a bit harder than your peers during residency years 1-3. If your Step 3 score was in the bottom Quintile of Step 3 scores (which was below 214 in 2019), then your chance of failing the radiology Core examination is 31%. This is more than 10 times higher than the 2.7% fail rate for radiology residents who had a Step 3 score over the mean.

Be sure to carefully understand what I'm saying. I'm not saying that doing poorly on Step 3 portends that you will be a subaverage radiologist. What I'm saying is that the Radiology Core exam, being a multiple-choice examination much like the Step 3 examination, is very much like Step 3 in terms of who does well and who struggles--so your relatively low performance on Step 3 suggests that you may struggle with the Core examination.

USMLE Step 3 Scores Have Value in Predicting ABR Core Examination Outcome and Performance: A Multi-institutional Study

 

[RADSTEPMD]

Fellowships in Radiology really don't put much weight on Step 3 - The fellowship I did, didn't even ask for the step 3 scores to be submitted in the application.

 

[point542]

Fellowships won't really analyze your Step 3 score.

BUT--my advice is to study a bit harder than your peers during residency years 1-3. If your Step 3 score was in the bottom Quintile of Step 3 scores (which was below 214 in 2019), then your chance of failing the radiology Core examination is 31%. This is more than 10 times higher than the 2.7% fail rate for radiology residents who had a Step 3 score over the mean.

Be sure to carefully understand what I'm saying. I'm not saying that doing poorly on Step 3 portends that you will be a subaverage radiologist. What I'm saying is that the Radiology Core exam, being a multiple-choice examination much like the Step 3 examination, is very much like Step 3 in terms of who does well and who struggles--so your relatively low performance on Step 3 suggests that you may struggle with the Core examination.

USMLE Step 3 Scores Have Value in Predicting ABR Core Examination Outcome and Performance: A Multi-institutional Study

Thanks for this. I will take any iota of extra motivation to study for this damned test. I am a dead average board exam taker (233 step 1, 243 step 2), so I hope step 3/core goes the same way. I am somewhat apprehensive about Core given that I personally know of a fair # of people who have failed it.

 

[Dr. USMLE]

Thanks for this. I will take any iota of extra motivation to study for this damned test. I am a dead average board exam taker (233 step 1, 243 step 2), so I hope step 3/core goes the same way. I am somewhat apprehensive about Core given that I personally know of a fair # of people who have failed it.

Core exam failures are a mixed bag, ranging from one-offs to multiple attempts (including 5 or more attempts).

Most of my core exam students actually did well on standardized tests up until the core exam, including all 3 steps. In a way, that's not exactly surprising given average radiology step scores. With strategic advice and tutoring, they are able to pass on the second attempt.

On the other hand, the students who have had repeated core exam failures often do have a below average testing history.

Other factors include program quality, reduced/shifted call responsibilities, dedicated study time, structured board prep, etc.

If your program has a history of a high core failure rate, you should consider seeking help and preparing earlier.

 

[ZJz4]

Fellowships won't really analyze your Step 3 score.

BUT--my advice is to study a bit harder than your peers during residency years 1-3. If your Step 3 score was in the bottom Quintile of Step 3 scores (which was below 214 in 2019), then your chance of failing the radiology Core examination is 31%. This is more than 10 times higher than the 2.7% fail rate for radiology residents who had a Step 3 score over the mean.

Be sure to carefully understand what I'm saying. I'm not saying that doing poorly on Step 3 portends that you will be a subaverage radiologist. What I'm saying is that the Radiology Core exam, being a multiple-choice examination much like the Step 3 examination, is very much like Step 3 in terms of who does well and who struggles--so your relatively low performance on Step 3 suggests that you may struggle with the Core examination.

USMLE Step 3 Scores Have Value in Predicting ABR Core Examination Outcome and Performance: A Multi-institutional Study

Would failing step 3 and retaking it hurt fellowship applications?

 

[RadiologyPD]

I don't think fellowships will use an anomalous Step 3 low score in any meaningful way. If a very low Step 3 score is in keeping with a very low Step 1 and Step 2, then it may be a factor, but easily overcome by good residency metrics (residency quality, brand, LOR, research, specialty-specific connections, etc).

 

[ZJz4]

I don't think fellowships will use an anomalous Step 3 low score in any meaningful way. If a very low Step 3 score is in keeping with a very low Step 1 and Step 2, then it may be a factor, but easily overcome by good residency metrics (residency quality, brand, LOR, research, specialty-specific connections, etc).

Got it thanks! So a failed step 3 score is overcome by good other metrics? Good to hear