UT Southwestern vs UT Houston

[ucla41]

I am having a hard time deciding between these 2 programs. Both programs are located in big cities, and you will get great exposure at both hospitals... I know that both programs have reputations for working their residents very hard...but whatever its residency...I think UTSW has a lot of q4 calls and Houston has less calls but most likely longer days (minimal CRNA's there)...

So i guess it may come down to didactics? I've heard UTSW has made many changes to its didactics and now it is better than before and it seems solid...Not really sure about Houston's didactics though I heard as recent as 2 years ago, they were weak and board pass rate wasnt good but now its improving...

Finally the question of reputation....I'd assume that UTSW has the edge here based on it being better known nationwide (many other strong residencies and a strong medical school)...

any thoughts from people that know better than me?

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[Jeep23Guy]

UTSW has the edge in reputation, but I'm not sure if that's accurate. You're going to get good training at either program. UT-Houston has the highest volume trauma center in the country, but you aren't going to be lacking in trauma at UTSW either. I hadn't heard the greatest things about either program, but I think I've heard worse things (eg The residents are less happy, etc) about UTSW. I was actually pleasantly surprised by UT-Houston and I thing that the chair is really taking the program in the right direction.

I don't think you can go wrong with either program. It's more based on if you prefer Dallas or Houston (I prefer Houston). And on a side note, I don't think either program is in the top 2 programs in the state (maybe not even top 3).

 

[ucla41]

UTSW has the edge in reputation, but I'm not sure if that's accurate. You're going to get good training at either program. UT-Houston has the highest volume trauma center in the country, but you aren't going to be lacking in trauma at UTSW either. I hadn't heard the greatest things about either program, but I think I've heard worse things (eg The residents are less happy, etc) about UTSW. I was actually pleasantly surprised by UT-Houston and I thing that the chair is really taking the program in the right direction.

I don't think you can go wrong with either program. It's more based on if you prefer Dallas or Houston (I prefer Houston). And on a side note, I don't think either program is in the top 2 programs in the state (maybe not even top 3).

Which programs do you prefer? I heard pre hurricane ike that utmb was the best in the state but not sure about now...

 

[Bertelman]

I am likewise intrigued to see which 3 programs you rank above Houston and Dallas.

 

[Jeep23Guy]

I listed my Texas rank list in another post, but I think San Antonio and Scott and White are the strongest programs in the state right now. I think 3rd is almost a wash (but like I said, UT-Houston is def on their way up)...my list is
1. San Antonio
2. Scott and White
3. UT-Houston
4. UT-MB
5. Baylor

 

[UTKB]

I honestly don't know where people get that residents at UTSW aren't happy. It's a rumor that keeps getting perpetuated and just won't die.

 

[Bertelman]

I listed my Texas rank list in another post, but I think San Antonio and Scott and White are the strongest programs in the state right now. I think 3rd is almost a wash (but like I said, UT-Houston is def on their way up)...my list is
1. San Antonio
2. Scott and White
3. UT-Houston
4. UT-MB
5. Baylor

I'm guessing you aren't listing UTSW because you didn't interview. If you are telling me UTSW is the 6th ranked program in the state, I would have to say your Houston bias is clouding your judgment.

Full disclosure: my med school is high on your list, and I didn't even apply. Let's say I wasn't impressed.

 

[Bertelman]

I don't know about any of those programs, but I have partied in four of the cities. 😉 As far as the cities themselves...

Dallas > Houston >> San Antonio >>> Galveston

Where is Scott and White and is there anything fun to do there?

a) Temple

b) Hell no. Best you could say is it's an hour from Austin

 

[DMBUGA34]

Real UTSW >>>>>> SDN UTSW

Dallas is terribly underrated, it only lacks natural beauty (mountains/rivers/real lakes)

 

[UTKB]

Dallas > Houston >> San Antonio >>> Galveston

BINGO.

a) Temple

b) Hell no. Best you could say is it's an hour from Austin

For this reason I would adjust the above to:

Dallas>Houston>>San Antonio>>Temple>>>Galveston

Real UTSW >>>>>> SDN UTSW

Dallas is terribly underrated, it only lacks natural beauty (mountains/rivers/real lakes)

I wholly agree. I drive/walk through parts of downtown Dallas and literally feel like I'm in NYC, other areas I feel like I'm in Austin, others feel like a 'burb nightmare. Dallas has been a pleasant surprise. But you're right, no scenery.

 

[lazylikeapanda]

would also add that UTSW pays more than Houston.

 

[Deanmonster]

I listed my Texas rank list in another post, but I think San Antonio and Scott and White are the strongest programs in the state right now. I think 3rd is almost a wash (but like I said, UT-Houston is def on their way up)...my list is
1. San Antonio
2. Scott and White
3. UT-Houston
4. UT-MB
5. Baylor

How is Baylor last on this list?

 

[ucla41]

How is Baylor last on this list?

Are there any residents from any of these programs that are able to comment on their experience there so far?

 

[Jeep23Guy]

Answering a few of the comments/questions...

I would have interviewed at UT-SW but when I called they had a wait-list and I didn't care enough to wait. I talked to many people that did interview and rotate there...I never said it was bad and I didn't even say not good. I just really think that Houston is a better city to live in than Dallas (some people prefer Dallas). Also, UT-SW pays more, but it also costs more to live in Dallas.

It really depends on what you're looking for in a city...San Antonio (which is the 7th largest city in the country), is probably the best "family-oriented" city and has a small town kinda feel. Having said that, I most likely would not go there if I was single. Dallas and Houston are kind've a wash depending on what you like. There are "Dallas people" and there are "Houston people" and having spent a lot of time in both cities, I'm just a Houston guy, but you can find anything you want in either city (being the 4th and 8th largest cities in the US respectively). I think the programs are probably fairly similar as well.

Now for Baylor...not that I think it's a weak program. It seems like you would get an excellent education there (and I loved their PD), but there are several reasons that it's #5 for me (may be moving up to #4). So not in any particular order...
1. Losing the methodist hospital was a huge loss for the college in general. They still have great hospitals (Ben Taub, Texas Children's, Texas Heart, MD Anderson), but it's really not a good sign to lose your hospital.
2. They have an interim chair that has been the interim chair for 3 years...maybe that's not a terrible thing, but it really makes you think
3. It seems that the residents have somewhat of a tough time forming relationships with a lot of the other residents because they are rotating through so many hospitals.
4. Although this isn't a very big deal, they take an ITE every 2 months as a CA-1. That just seems like overkill to me, and would be a little nerve-wracking.

 

[Sdp]

I wholly agree. I drive/walk through parts of downtown Dallas and literally feel like I'm in NYC

ROFL. You are funny!

 

[ucla41]

Answering a few of the comments/questions...

I would have interviewed at UT-SW but when I called they had a wait-list and I didn't care enough to wait. I talked to many people that did interview and rotate there...I never said it was bad and I didn't even say not good. I just really think that Houston is a better city to live in than Dallas (some people prefer Dallas). Also, UT-SW pays more, but it also costs more to live in Dallas.

It really depends on what you're looking for in a city...San Antonio (which is the 7th largest city in the country), is probably the best "family-oriented" city and has a small town kinda feel. Having said that, I most likely would not go there if I was single. Dallas and Houston are kind've a wash depending on what you like. There are "Dallas people" and there are "Houston people" and having spent a lot of time in both cities, I'm just a Houston guy, but you can find anything you want in either city (being the 4th and 8th largest cities in the US respectively). I think the programs are probably fairly similar as well.

Now for Baylor...not that I think it's a weak program. It seems like you would get an excellent education there (and I loved their PD), but there are several reasons that it's #5 for me (may be moving up to #4). So not in any particular order...
1. Losing the methodist hospital was a huge loss for the college in general. They still have great hospitals (Ben Taub, Texas Children's, Texas Heart, MD Anderson), but it's really not a good sign to lose your hospital.
2. They have an interim chair that has been the interim chair for 3 years...maybe that's not a terrible thing, but it really makes you think
3. It seems that the residents have somewhat of a tough time forming relationships with a lot of the other residents because they are rotating through so many hospitals.
4. Although this isn't a very big deal, they take an ITE every 2 months as a CA-1. That just seems like overkill to me, and would be a little nerve-wracking.

didnt get great vibes at baylor....residents didnt seem to be as close as those at other programs...i think losing methodist was a big blow to baylor...also i didnt like having to pay $100+ a month for parking at some of these hospitals...

i dont think they take ITE q2months....think its more of a computer test on blackboard you take at home (or maybe im confusing it with another program)...

 

[sawthelight]

...and will be starting my CA-1 in July at San Antonio, I have to say that I agree that San Antonio and S&W are #1-2 for program/training/resident-friendly. San Antonio is more of a family city than Dallas/Houston, and Temple is a basically a middle-of-nowhere-city (went to med school there, and I have a family). I'd say after those two, UTSW and the Houston programs are pretty much interchangeable in question of program quality, though UTSW is a bit more of a work horse and you're spread out over 8 different hospitals. If city's more important to you, I'd agree that Dallas and Houston offer essentially the same things but have a very different feel to them (and Houston's hot as heck). I do have to say, though, that without question San Antonio and S&W residents were the happiest and most friendly of all the TX residents I met, and with good reason. I think that the TX programs don't get enough credit, though, compared to some of the better-known East and West coast programs. Anyway, just my opinion.

 

[UTKB]

ROFL. You are funny!

I know people will think it's dumb but it's true. Take a walk down Main.

 

[aguy]

I think that both programs give you excellent clinical exposure with the amount of work a little higher in both than the average program. Both Houston and Dallas are great cities to live in. I think that you should pick the one where you think you would fit in with the resident class better. I didn't really like the atmosphere at UT-Houston but this is just preference.

I really liked Baylor and struggled a lot with where they are going on my list. My personal opinion is that losing Methodist (didn't this happen forever ago) didn't really impact the overall program when they still train at amazing places like Ben Taub, Texas Heart, Texas Children's - the persistent PD issue is curious though. (I think for OB-Gyn they've had trouble finding a PD too.) I know I was told that instead of doing their core CV rotations at methodist, they do them at Texas Heart which is probably better anyhow. So as with every program - pros and cons to everything.

 

[geauxg8rs]

Need to check about fellowships. UT Houston lost their pain fellowship a few years ago. But on the other hand, being in Houston you should have an inside track at MDACC (top notch fellowship). You never know later on that you might want to do a fellowship. If you are already an established resident you have the inside track at fellowship at your home institution. This goes for peds, cc, hearts as well. I think possible fellowship choices is more important than didactics (so not important it should not be a factor in residency location). I did my pain fellowship at UTSW (from an outside residency) and can talk about this but don't know a whole lot about the residency since we only really saw the residents on the pain service.

 

[Sdp]

I know people will think it's dumb but it's true. Take a walk down Main.

I don't think its dumb, just slightly exaggerated.

 

[Sdp]

I listed my Texas rank list in another post, but I think San Antonio and Scott and White are the strongest programs in the state right now. I think 3rd is almost a wash (but like I said, UT-Houston is def on their way up)...my list is
1. San Antonio
2. Scott and White
3. UT-Houston
4. UT-MB
5. Baylor

Just to add another perspective for future applicants...most people I know (in Texas) didn't even apply to #1 and #2 due to perceived weakness (location, lack of fellowships, less complex cases, future job opportunities, etc). If I am not mistaken, Baylor and UT Southwestern are the ONLY programs in Texas that offer every accredited fellowship and then some. They are also the only two with top 10 pediatric hospitals, making those fellowships extremely competitive throughout the country. For instance, due to the heavy case volume, residents at Baylor do in-utero surgeries and hearts cases 1-on-1 with the attendings (who are some of the most famous academics out there). You would be hard-pressed to find many places that offer that level of complexity with enough cases for both residents and fellows.

would also add that UTSW pays more than Houston.

yep, 42,500 vs. 48,700 + UT Southwestern also gives you a $4500 education fund 👍

 

[Sdp]

.

 

[Jeep23Guy]

1. The Methodist split was like >5 years ago so I don't see why it's pertinent today. Since then, they have built their own private hospital and according to their email last week, apparently the new, empty building is now going to open next year. Plus, like you said, they still have Texas Children's (top 5 in Peds), Texas Heart Institute (top 5 in Heart Surgery), MD Anderson (#1 cancer hospital in the country/world), etc.
2. Concerns me too...
3. Seemed pretty cohesive to me, the former Ortho guys seemed to get along well + they have a Poker night every week at one of the residents' houses (dudes only i hear, quality MAN time)
4. I think it's just a regular exam q 2 months to keep you on your toes, but yeah, I thought it was a bit much too. Given the very strong emphasis on didactics though, hopefully I won't bomb it ...if I match there.

5. Low pay, no moonlighting.

Overall, I thought it was a very strong program and can suit anyone. If you want a fellowship, you're pretty much guaranteed an awesome fellowship and if you want a job, the program is well-connected.

Agreed for the most part...

BUT, I will say that the split with the Methodist is a much bigger deal than people make it out to be. Not only is the Methodist an awesome place to work, it really makes you think that Baylor (the university as a whole) has a difficult time playing with others.

Also, I would be VERY surprised if the Baylor Hospital opens during our residency. Having said that, it would be really nice...

Baylor is obviously not my first choice, as I said before, but I would definitely be happy there. I know I would get a first rate education with tons of opportunity for fellowships...

 

[lazylikeapanda]

utkb and myself are categorical anesthesia interns at UTSW. I can't comment directly on the CA1-3 years, but here are some general things about the program. Didactics have improved significantly over the past 2 years. This year an afternoon lecture series was started at Parkland and has been getting positive feed back from the residents. Monday through Friday a "topic of the day" is sent to our pager (topics like management of fever in blood fusion, answers are posted on line), case of the week is posted online, interns, CA1-3s have directed reading plans, there's an ite question bank, and mock orals. Make what you want of it. For interns we all doing our anesthesia month in June. The admins call it VAPOR camp, its a month in which we spend mornings in the OR helping to set up and start cases then a lectures in the afternoon. Its a way to get is ready for the start of CA 1 year, i'm looking forward to it.

Case volume and variety shouldn't be a problem at UTSW, because its a large city plus Parkland treats anyone with and w/o a pulse. OBgyn is very fertile you'll have no problems with getting your numbers, lots of various gen surg/neurosurg/vascular cases. There's a very active cardiac/lung/kidney transplant program at UTSW and a prolific liver/kidney/panc transplant program at Baylor University Medical Center in Dallas (BUMC) which anes residents rotate through. I've been told that you meet all of your numbers by the end of CA 2 year. As a department we love the ICU, with 3 months of it done during intern year and 2-3 during CA1-2 years. During intern year there's a rotation in trauma icu/transplant ICU at BUMC, a coronary care unit at BUMC or micu month at methodist. CA1 you do a month at the VA which is an anesthesia ran SICU and/or PICU at childrens. For the hardcore or unlucky few a Parkland SICU month.

We're a bottom heavy program, with the CA1's taking 8 months of q4 call and each subsequent year it gets progressively lighter. It sounds like it would sucks but really you're working 3 days and off a day with 2 weekends off a month. As an intern there are months where I'm bumping 80hrs/wk and months were i'm bumping 30hrs, with the majority of months in the 50-60hrs range.

other things: like I posted earlier we get paid more than both Baylor and UT Houston. However I think both Baylor and Houston will pay for your health insurance while UTSW contributes half, so each month ~$200 is deducted from salary for health and dental insurance. Our book fund is generous $1250 a year that we can use on books, conferences, exam fees. Cost of living isn't terrible, food is pretty cheap here, i have a comfortable size apartment with a fire place in a gated complex and i'm paying $820 and its 4-5 miles away from a majority of the hospitals we rotate. People are pretty friendly here though there is a general sense of high maintenance here compared to Houston. A positive about UTSW vs Houston is that we're the only program in Dallas.

I'm not from Texas so these are the things I wish I knew about before coming to Dallas. 1. gas is not cheaper here 2. its frickin hot and humid during the summer and pretty cold during winter. I'm still figuring out how to defog my car's windshield after it rains during the summer. 3. electricity in texas is the most expensive of any state. 4. there are lots of toll roads 5. no state tax

 

[Ignatius J]

Can't speak for UT-SW, but....

UT-H is a workhorse program. Relationships with faculty are pretty much all business.

It is a Type A driven, kill or be killed, type environment.

You are at Hermann hospital, the busiest trauma center in the nation, so you will see some great stuff and get great cases.

However, you are a little fish in a big pond and people will make sure that you feel that way.

This is just my opinion. But I think most other medical students here would agree.

 

[Bertelman]

I'm not from Texas so these are the things I wish I knew about before coming to Dallas. 1. gas is not cheaper here 2. its frickin hot and humid during the summer and pretty cold during winter. I'm still figuring out how to defog my car's windshield after it rains during the summer. 3. electricity in texas is the most expensive of any state. 4. there are lots of toll roads 5. no state tax

1) It's cheaper than the East Coast
2) Turn the A/C on windshield defrost, but make it cold. The inside window is warm and wet, so you need to dry it and cool it
5) That's a good thing once you make attending salary, but it sucks when the sales tax is >8%

 

[ucla41]

Can't speak for UT-SW, but....

UT-H is a workhorse program. Relationships with faculty are pretty much all business.

It is a Type A driven, kill or be killed, type environment.

You are at Hermann hospital, the busiest trauma center in the nation, so you will see some great stuff and get great cases.

However, you are a little fish in a big pond and people will make sure that you feel that way.

This is just my opinion. But I think most other medical students here would agree.

Are u a student or a resident there? If so pm me...

 

[lazylikeapanda]

Bertelman- thanks for the tip I'll try it out this summer, otherwise I'll resort to sticking my head outside my car when driving.
Not complaining about no state tax, it was a very pleasant surprise to be sure. My savings account thanks the state of texas greatly.

 

[Sdp]

.

 

[Bertelman]

Bertelman- thanks for the tip I'll try it out this summer, otherwise I'll resort to sticking my head outside my car when driving.

Actually rolling down the windows helps, too. You're trying to equilibrate the temp and humidity between the car and outside. Obviously that's not a viable option if it's still raining.

 

[Camel]

Actually rolling down the windows helps, too. You're trying to equilibrate the temp and humidity between the car and outside. Obviously that's not a viable option if it's still raining.

It is if you have a set of those window shield things... I have always wanted a set for my car because it would wonderful to crack my windows in the rain. Seen them a lot but never seen them in a store (I assume they're built for specific cars).