UTSW put on blast

[Lawpy]

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Also the nursing subreddit agreed with the residency guys on criticizing the opportunity, so it really only seems only a few people on SDN are insistent on defending that opportunity and dismissing any outrage and condemnation as baseless.

 

[deleted1081396]

Also the nursing subreddit agreed with the residency guys on criticizing the opportunity, so it really only seems only a few people on SDN are insistent on defending that opportunity and dismissing any outrage and condemnation as baseless.

r/medicalschool is a better resource than SDN for this reason -- the toxic and tone-deaf aspects of academia don't bleed over into it like they do here.

 

[AnonymousDoctorGuyPerson]

If I'm looking at their applications in 2-3 years and see this activity I'm not recommending them for interview. It shows they have zero common sense and are easy to take advantage of and we have enough people like that in medicine.

I doubt folks would want to go to a program where their app is thrown out because of this anyways.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

r/medicalschool is a better resource than SDN for this reason -- the toxic and tone-deaf aspects of academia don't bleed over into it like they do here.

My experience has been that the majority of attendings on SDN aren't in academics.

 

[Lawpy]

Also what i don't get is why didn't UTSW utilize premed clinical volunteers to help out with this? It makes no sense to request MS1s and MS2s to do these tasks that premeds do for clinical experience

 

[Splenda88]

They should do it if UTSW will waive 2-3 yers tuition for them. But we all know they won't do that. Our system is broken.

I have said it before. Med school should be 2 yrs prereqs + 3 yrs med school and 2-6 yrs residency.

 

[Splenda88]

If a student were already a licensed RN I think you’d have an excellent point here. As it is, students aren’t yet licensed professionals in most cases and would not only require supervision and training by someone accountable for their work, but there would also be big liability issues.

I don’t see a viable way to engage students in a paid professional capacity given all the red tape in healthcare.

Give them 2-3 yrs free tuition. RN are making $100+/hr. Why should the burden be always on med students?

 

[Splenda88]

Then the school/hospital should focus on getting nursing students, NP/PA students, CNAs etc to do the work. Altruism is a buzzword that hospitals like to use to exploit healthcare workers and students, and med students in desperate desire for some CV boosting things (even though this crap isn't CV boosting) will blindly plunge into it.

I know people stated the peer pressure is in their heads and not real but given the situation surrounding the community and school, it feels very real to be ostracized as a student for not helping along (which in turn has damaging implications for AOA, which does matter)

The sad thing is that even attending here are falling for this crap.

 

[operaman]

Give them 2-3 yrs free tuition. RN are making $100+/hr. Why should the burden be always on med students?

Honestly I think that’s not a bad idea, but would probably be unpalatable for students on balance. The deal I could see working would be to comp a year or two of tuition for an extended period (1-2 years) of dedicated service. A one or two time volunteering experience doesn’t quite rise to that level, but it would be interesting to see some kind of local service for tuition program. There are some federal programs, military, etc that do this, but it could be an interesting approach for a school in need of staff to offer something at the institutional level.

 

[Lawpy]

The sad thing is that even attending here are falling for this crap.

That's why i posted in the other thread suggesting the failure of physician lobbying.

Mention anything about med students being exploited and the attendings will come and smack you down. It's a major cultural problem and honestly the one good thing midlevels did was teaching midlevel students how to defend and be proud of their profession

There were already comments from nurses that nursing students have no time for this crap nor will they allow nursing students to be exploited by the hospital systems. Nurses know how to lobby and actively protect future generations.

 

[Lawpy]

Guys when the pandemic hit last year, NYU and few other med schools allowed MS4s to graduate early and quickly transition to interns to help the overwhelmed hospitals. THAT'S a good example of schools helping students to help the community

This garbage here from UTSW is degrading to both med students AND nurses/nursing students because it shows the hospital system can get away with paying healthcare workers less or nothing at all.

 

[Billiam95]

That's why i posted in the other thread suggesting the failure of physician lobbying.

Mention anything about med students being exploited and the attendings will come and smack you down. It's a major cultural problem and honestly the one good thing midlevels did was teaching midlevel students how to defend and be proud of their profession

There were already comments from nurses that nursing students have no time for this crap nor will they allow nursing students to be exploited by the hospital systems. Nurses know how to lobby and actively protect future generations.

Brown-nosers either self-select into medical school, or are selected by admissions (or some combination of both). It's no surprise there are down stream effects.

 

[deleted393595]

Bro. He has been catastrophizing and shouting false info all over this thread, completely ignoring what we actually know and has actually been happening while moving goalposts around to continue being outraged, then claiming he’s going to wait for more info and that he’s always been saying that.

There is nothing to be outraged about here. Calling out other people in medicine for being over the top is not “off the mark.” We are supposed to be policing each other.

And fyi, I am one of the biggest opponents of midlevel expansion on this site.

@Matthew9Thirtyfive I have immense respect for you since you're ex (or still current?) mil and I'm commissioning into one of our branches. That being said, @Lawpy is dead on the mark and you've been jumping the gun. This behavior by UTSW is shameless and is an insult to bedside nurses and nursing students.

 

[IR3A4]

@Matthew9Thirtyfive I have immense respect for you since you're ex (or still current?) mil and I'm commissioning into one of our branches. That being said, @Lawpy is dead on the mark and you've been jumping the gun. This behavior by UTSW is shameless and is an insult to bedside nurses and nursing students.

Not to draw too far off-topic but you shouldn't have to state your respect for military/ex-military when making your counterpoint. As a service member for going on 5 years, I thank ye, but I can tell you military or not we don't all immediately deserve respect bahaha (plus there are other reasons to respect Matt, even if we disagree on some points).

 

[GoSpursGo]

The discussion was already done until it got resurrected and i kept getting criticized, which is why i responded back

Look, nobody is trying to hurt your feelings here, but you have not responded. You keep repeating the same points, or making new points that are unrelated to the actual situation.

That's why i posted in the other thread suggesting the failure of physician lobbying.

Mention anything about med students being exploited and the attendings will come and smack you down.

you are wrong. Part of an effective lobbying campaign is focusing on things that actually matter. No matter how many nursing subreddit points you reference, this is a nothingburger. Talk to me about something like mid level encroachment, or the job market in certain specialties, and you’ll get my attention, but if we get outraged at literally everything then we won’t manage to actually do anything.

im honestly at a loss against this perception that SDN is toxic because attendings will actually take their time to give you a dissenting opinion. Disagreeing isn’t smacking down. I think I’ve made a pretty clear argument for why this is no big deal, and the counter argument seems to essentially boil down to “no you’re wrong this is obviously exploitative.” Which, if you’ve already predetermined your position and aren’t willing to listen to a rational alternate viewpoint, then don’t @ me.

 

[Lawpy]

Look, nobody is trying to hurt your feelings here, but you have not responded. You keep repeating the same points, or making new points that are unrelated to the actual situation.

you are wrong. Part of an effective lobbying campaign is focusing on things that actually matter. No matter how many nursing subreddit points you reference, this is a nothingburger. Talk to me about something like mid level encroachment, or the job market in certain specialties, and you’ll get my attention, but if we get outraged at literally everything then we won’t manage to actually do anything.

im honestly at a loss against this perception that SDN is toxic because attendings will actually take their time to give you a dissenting opinion. Disagreeing isn’t smacking down. I think I’ve made a pretty clear argument for why this is no big deal, and the counter argument seems to essentially boil down to “no you’re wrong this is obviously exploitative.” Which, if you’ve already predetermined your position and aren’t willing to listen to a rational alternate viewpoint, then don’t @ me.

I'm (and many others agreeing with me) getting criticized with increasingly dismissive and harsh language based on that last post which is why i responded even though that discussion was over. That's what i'm saying. It's getting unnecessarily heated over one point despite the agreement on other related instances of the hospital's exploitative nature that i mentioned earlier.

I'm saying UTSW/main affiliated hospital is having instances of malignant behavior and that's giving me reservations in believing this opportunity is truly volunteering and not "voluntold" (yes, these things exist). That's why i listed 3 different instances to base this point. I know you said it's better not to speculate, but to be frank, the thread was created with the purpose of discussion even though presumably all of us are not directly connected with UTSW. And it's already clear since this internal email was posted on Reddit, someone in UTSW was clearly upset by this.

There are many schools who know how to promote good volunteering opportunities and have med students help out in overwhelmed hospitals. NYU and few others did a great job with it last year. UTSW quite frankly did a crap job because it creates a disturbing notion that hospital systems can get away with paying healthcare workers less or none at all. This feeds into the exploitative nature of the hospital especially if the malignant working conditions as stated in that nurse anecdote i listed are true and are contributing to the nurse shortage. Having the nursing input in this matters a lot.

This is definitely an important issue from a lobbying perspective. It also gives concern that was also brought up by nurses and med students/residents whether this sets the precedent for other big hospital systems to fire nurses and replace them with med students who'll work for free. I don't that'd work out because of liability issues but the degrading nature of this gives this feeling.

I think SDN is far more institution friendly than Reddit or Twitter. In the big Dartmouth scandal thread, we had a lot of senior members actively defending the school despite mounting evidence the school screwed up and it took NYTimes and other media reporting to finally squash that support. The fact that there's a lot of benefit of doubt given to UTSW with sincere belief this is truly volunteering and not "voluntold" just reinforces the institution friendliness. Combine this with SDN's propensity to tear apart med students seeking help in their desire to give blunt, realistic feedback and we get this perception of toxicity

I don't think we'll agree so i'll just leave it here

 

[Goro]

The school administrators have a lot of power. Very bad move to disappoint them by not taking this opportunity to show off altruism, compassion or other professionalism buzzwords.

I know people stated the peer pressure is in their heads and not real but given the situation surrounding the community and school, it feels very real to be ostracized as a student for not helping along (which in turn has damaging implications for AOA, which does matter)

Your gift for hyperbole is impressive. If the students aren't being forced or exploited, they're in danger of being ostracized.

 

[Goro]

im honestly at a loss against this perception that SDN is toxic because attendings will actually take their time to give you a dissenting opinion.

The people who claim that SDN is toxic are the ones coming here to have their bad choices affirmed, and to hear what they want to hear, not what they need to hear.

 

[Lawpy]

Your gift for hyperbole is impressive. If the students aren't being forced or exploited, they're in danger of being ostracized.

What?

 

[Lawpy]

The people who claim that SDN is toxic are the ones coming here to have their bad choices affirmed, and to hear what they want to hear, not what they need to hear.

There are many instances where people went against SDN advice and did well. I think it's unfair to dismiss all of them as making bad choices.

 

[Splenda88]

Your gift for hyperbole is impressive. If the students aren't being forced or exploited, they're in danger of being ostracized.

What you quoted are not hyperbole given the nature of the US med education...

 

[GoSpursGo]

I'm (and many others agreeing with me) getting criticized with increasingly dismissive and harsh language based on that last post which is why i responded even though that discussion was over. That's what i'm saying. It's getting unnecessarily heated over one point despite the agreement on other related instances of the hospital's exploitative nature that i mentioned earlier.

I'm saying UTSW/main affiliated hospital is having instances of malignant behavior and that's giving me reservations in believing this opportunity is truly volunteering and not "voluntold" (yes, these things exist). That's why i listed 3 different instances to base this point. I know you said it's better not to speculate, but to be frank, the thread was created with the purpose of discussion even though presumably all of us are not directly connected with UTSW. And it's already clear since this internal email was posted on Reddit, someone in UTSW was clearly upset by this.

There are many schools who know how to promote good volunteering opportunities and have med students help out in overwhelmed hospitals. NYU and few others did a great job with it last year. UTSW quite frankly did a crap job because it creates a disturbing notion that hospital systems can get away with paying healthcare workers less or none at all. This feeds into the exploitative nature of the hospital especially if the malignant working conditions as stated in that nurse anecdote i listed are true and are contributing to the nurse shortage. Having the nursing input in this matters a lot.

This is definitely an important issue from a lobbying perspective. It also gives concern that was also brought up by nurses and med students/residents whether this sets the precedent for other big hospital systems to fire nurses and replace them with med students who'll work for free. I don't that'd work out because of liability issues but the degrading nature of this gives this feeling.

I think SDN is far more institution friendly than Reddit or Twitter. In the big Dartmouth scandal thread, we had a lot of senior members actively defending the school despite mounting evidence the school screwed up and it took NYTimes and other media reporting to finally squash that support. The fact that there's a lot of benefit of doubt given to UTSW with sincere belief this is truly volunteering and not "voluntold" just reinforces the institution friendliness. Combine this with SDN's propensity to tear apart med students seeking help in their desire to give blunt, realistic feedback and we get this perception of toxicity

I don't think we'll agree so i'll just leave it here

Again, your arguments basically amount to saying that other people agree with you and repeating the same unrelated points.

 

[Lawpy]

Again, your arguments basically amount to saying that other people agree with you and repeating the same unrelated points.

They're not unrelated, that's the thing. I was using that to support the case why i don't think it's truly volunteering

But this isn't going anywhere and is probably moot anyways if that opportunity is cancelled

 

[0ncogene]

I remember when my hospital asked attendings to volunteer for Covid vaccination clinic due to nursing staff shortage, they would try to avoid it any way possible. Why would med students need this "opportunity" when they can spend their valuable time doing a bunch of other things?

 

[Goro]

There are many instances where people went against SDN advice and did well. I think it's unfair to dismiss all of them as making bad choices.

I'm talking about the ones who lash out at sound advice and label us as "toxic".

 

[Redpancreas]

There are many instances where people went against SDN advice and did well. I think it's unfair to dismiss all of them as making bad choices.

Hey man, no one is saying that SDN makes all the right decisions. Some are saying they are exasperated with the notion that when attending's on SDN say things, students see it as a toxic culture.

Bringing this back to the decisions at hand. I personally agree that there is probably no external pressure put on by faculty to volunteer. It seems strictly voluntary. I'm not sure where you are in your training, but no one cares about what M1/M2s choose to do with their time so long as they check all the mandatory event boxes. Unless UTSW is composed of 5 medical students, no one is keeping track of who decided to volunteer or not and no one in the M3 and beyond world you encounter will remember it. The notion that some will be ostracized for not volunteering is melodramatic in my opinion. If you're thinking about external pressure in terms of ERAS, I don't even think the majority of schools are offering M1/2s voluntary clinical experience and the shift has been in the opposite direction. Someone has already brought it up but it's kind of hard to isolate medical students from COVID in fall 2021 where they routinely swab covid, but send patients up to the floor with results pending. At this point, 25% of my patients on census are COVID + but only maybe a couple of those were billed as such.

As for exploitation, one can make the argument that administrators are using appealing language to lure naive medical students into this role to do scut. I could buy that. Like I said, I think the medical student counter to that is to ask if you can do one shift just for giggles and if the answer is no...you need to do at least a week then you know it's more about them trying to find bodies to fill a role than an altruistic effort on their part to give you clinical experience.

 

[Lawpy]

As for exploitation, one can make the argument that administrators are using appealing language to lure naive medical students into this role to do scut. I could buy that. Like I said, I think the medical student counter to that is to ask if you can do one shift just for giggles and if the answer is no...you need to do at least a week then you know it's more about them trying to find bodies to fill a role than an altruistic effort on their part to give you clinical experience.

This is a good point

 

[deleted393595]

Hey man, no one is saying that SDN makes all the right decisions. Some are saying they are exasperated with the notion that when attending's on SDN say things, students see it as a toxic culture.

Bringing this back to the decisions at hand. I personally agree that there is probably no external pressure put on by faculty to volunteer. It seems strictly voluntary. I'm not sure where you are in your training, but no one cares about what M1/M2s choose to do with their time so long as they check all the mandatory event boxes. Unless UTSW is composed of 5 medical students, no one is keeping track of who decided to volunteer or not and no one in the M3 and beyond world you encounter will remember it. The notion that some will be ostracized for not volunteering is melodramatic in my opinion. If you're thinking about external pressure in terms of ERAS, I don't even think the majority of schools are offering M1/2s voluntary clinical experience and the shift has been in the opposite direction. Someone has already brought it up but it's kind of hard to isolate medical students from COVID in fall 2021 where they routinely swab covid, but send patients up to the floor with results pending. At this point, 25% of my patients on census are COVID + but only maybe a couple of those were billed as such.

As for exploitation, one can make the argument that administrators are using appealing language to lure naive medical students into this role to do scut. I could buy that. Like I said, I think the medical student counter to that is to ask if you can do one shift just for giggles and if the answer is no...you need to do at least a week then you know it's more about them trying to find bodies to fill a role than an altruistic effort on their part to give you clinical experience.

Med school administrators want to move up the food chain. The world of admin gigs is a tight network and a buddy-buddy system. The admins at UTSW - if they can't get enough med students to cover at the hospital - are going to fare very poorly.

If you think that admins are beholden to rationality over their pocketbooks, an admin at a friend's med school has been sending nasty emails to med students implying that them testing positive for Covid is because they haven't been "masking adequately" and implying punishment for positive test results. This is despite all common sense proof that short of an N95, masks don't work. And even with a N95, there is still a chance of being infected.

Why is said admin so concerned? Because med students testing positive makes the med school look bad and therefore that admin by extension.

 

[deleted393595]

Not to draw too far off-topic but you shouldn't have to state your respect for military/ex-military when making your counterpoint. As a service member for going on 5 years, I thank ye, but I can tell you military or not we don't all immediately deserve respect bahaha (plus there are other reasons to respect Matt, even if we disagree on some points).

No worries 😉 I'm very strongly in favor of military leaders* who lie to preserve their careers and appease politicians at the expense of the lives of their men being sent straight to Gitmo.

*Especially if they're feeding intel to China

 

[Redpancreas]

More details from reddit on the UTSW "volunteer experience":
"The Med Students will work in a supportive fashion assisting the PCA’s & nursing staff with general tasks associated with the Unlicensed Clinical Staff role such as assisting with vital signs, transport, picking up trays, and other non-professional tasks identified by the Charge RN."



So the majority of this experience is pushing beds and picking up trays, and I'm going out on a limb here and assuming there won't be so much of an emphasis on teaching med students how to place IV lines or NG tubes. This is stuff a high school student could volunteer for. Can't see how you can spin this as an "educational opportunity" to all but the most naive med students.

Yeah...all this debate much ado for nothing LOL. Seems like it's just BS. Agreed with bolded (i.e. this is stuff a high school student could volunteer for). I guess who was I kidding...they don't even let M3/M4s do ABGs, lines, and NGs at a lot of places. Why would they let these M1/2s? One thing that would be cool is if this was implemented correctly and actually taught medical students how to do things...but that brings in liability and medical schools would have to pay liability for M1/2 years in addition to M3/4.

 

[dnyal]

Gotta say, I would have jumped at this as a Med student, especially in the pre clinical years. Whatever the hospital’s motivation, getting some time with patients always helped remind me why I came to medical school. It definitely wasn’t to cram biochem alone in a study carrel. I think I would also have liked to be there knowing I was actually helping out. I will say that hanging out with some nurses was where I learned a lot of basic bedside procedures.

I’m a bit more forgiving of the hospital because I don’t see this as a cost saving measure. This isn’t in lieu of travel nurses. The sad reality today is that travel nurses are hard to get at any price point. My hospital has a massive endowment in an amazing location and have so far only been able to get about half the travel nurses we need. Dallas isn’t exactly a plush location so I’m sure UTSW is struggling to get people even at high rates.

I could see an argument for offering some remuneration, maybe even at CNA rates. The flip side of that is creating potential conflict with academic requirements; last thing anyone needs is students forgoing instruction in order to earn extra money. Keeping it voluntary helps ensure students are focused on their coursework.

Yeah, I’d still jump on it. I did jump on a number of similar opportunities and I think it definitely helped me out somewhat in my clinical years and even into residency. Do a shift or two, learn some procedures, and add a stripe to your CV. So the hospital saves a couple hundred bucks - big deal.

Times have changed since Occupy Wall Street.

 

[snooper]

"Man what is going on with UTSW? Could've sworn i read about earlier controversies pertaining to that school/programs"
PD starting derm residency interviews with a round robin of all 26 applicants by having each say why they were more outstanding than the other applicants.

 

[InagStudentCICOM]

Lol what BS is this. Volunteer for organizations with limited resources and not for a hospital system with a multi-billion dollar operating budget and a CEO who makes over a million dollars. This is predatory corporate greed. If they can afford to pay for travel nurses, they can afford to pay medical students for their services.

Medical students: if you do not value your time and efforts, no one else will.

Can’t the same thing be said about residents and their abysmal pay!?

 

[Lawpy]

"Man what is going on with UTSW? Could've sworn i read about earlier controversies pertaining to that school/programs"
PD starting derm residency interviews with a round robin of all 26 applicants by having each say why they were more outstanding than the other applicants.

... ouch that's painful and really awkward

 

[operaman]

Times have changed since Occupy Wall Street.

I don’t think they’ve changed that much. I was an MS1 during OWS and students whined and complained about everything then too. Students today do seem a bit more fragile on average than 10 years ago. I don’t recall any safe spaces or trigger warnings or anyone calling a dissenting opinion “violence” or “trauma,” but the tendency to hyperbole and complaining was alive and well.

 

[Stagg737]

Lol, my first wandering back into non-resident/physician forums does not fail to entertain. I legitimately don't think I can roll my eyes hard enough at this thread.

This was a potential "you get what you make of it" type of opportunity. I could see this being something where a med student volunteers and just does scut work and gets abused the whole time. I can also see this as an opportunity where med students could ask nurses if they could shadow rounds with the team in the morning or learn about what to be looking for medically in the patients. This is literally just like any other pre-med volunteering activity. You can just coast by and check a box or you can be assertive and ask to be given experiences that are worthwhile. Maybe some students will meet and get to interact with their future clinical attendings early. Doing an M4 rotation where I'm now in residency gave me a HUGE leg-up intern year. What makes anyone think that isn't a possibility here? Seems like a great networking opportunity to me.

As for the exploitation, I don't see it. If it's truly voluntary and the med students have free choice, then it's completely fair. Don't want to do it? Don't do it. If UTSW seemed like it was pressuring students or even assigning shifts to their students, then I'd have a completely different opinion. UTSW could have easily made this a "mandatory clinical experience" if they wanted, in which case I'd 100% agree that this is exploitation. Stuff like this is when you get to see who actually knows how to play the game and who will just end up as a cog.

 

[operaman]

Med school 2021: A Short Play in One Act

Act 1.
Scene 1.

Students: here are our CVs showing thousands of hours of volunteer service, personal statements attesting to our desire to serve others, and maybe even some overseas missions if our families had enough money. We are but humble people who want nothing more than to serve the suffering.

Schools: your learning is of the utmost importance, but if you have some spare time we could sure use a hand caring for all these sick and suffering people. Things are bad out there.

Students: Burn the witch!!! Heretics! This is literal violence against us! So much trauma!

End scene.
End of play.

 

[Lawpy]

Med school 2021: A Short Play in One Act

Act 1.
Scene 1.

Students: here are our CVs showing thousands of hours of volunteer service, personal statements attesting to our desire to serve others, and maybe even some overseas missions if our families had enough money. We are but humble people who want nothing more than to serve the suffering.

Schools: your learning is of the utmost importance, but if you have some spare time we could sure use a hand caring for all these sick and suffering people. Things are bad out there.

Students: Burn the witch!!! Heretics! This is literal violence against us! So much trauma!

End scene.
End of play.

You're giving way too much benefit of doubt (and credit) to the schools here. That's why i wasn't kidding when i said how institution friendly SDN is

 

[Lawpy]

Also equating this crap with the actual good opportunities NYU and others have done is frankly absurd.

 

[Lawpy]

More details from reddit on the UTSW "volunteer experience":
"The Med Students will work in a supportive fashion assisting the PCA’s & nursing staff with general tasks associated with the Unlicensed Clinical Staff role such as assisting with vital signs, transport, picking up trays, and other non-professional tasks identified by the Charge RN."



So the majority of this experience is pushing beds and picking up trays, and I'm going out on a limb here and assuming there won't be so much of an emphasis on teaching med students how to place IV lines or NG tubes. This is stuff a high school student could volunteer for. Can't see how you can spin this as an "educational opportunity" to all but the most naive med students.

I keep reading this and i can't

"We are launching a new program with UT using volunteer Med Students as staff supporters. The Med Students will work in a supportive fashion assisting the PCA’s & nursing staff with general tasks associated with the Unlicensed Clinical Staff role such as assisting with vital signs, transport, picking up trays, and other non-professional tasks identified by the Charge RN. They can even help cover call lights during staff meal breaks to improve the odds of core staff getting a full 30 minutes uninterrupted."

UTSW was clearly looking for MS1s/MS2s to act like CNAs and premed volunteers

 

[Stagg737]

If I'm looking at their applications in 2-3 years and see this activity I'm not recommending them for interview. It shows they have zero common sense and are easy to take advantage of and we have enough people like that in medicine.

This is legitimately one of the dumbest things I've ever seen on this sight and I've read the pre-med forums for years...

Seriously, this would be golden material for an interview. Asking them about the experience, what they gained, etc would tell a lot about how they would function in residency and part of a team. Especially if they get an LOR from an attending they interacted with, would tell me that candidate knew how to play the game and we don't have enough of those physicians in medicine.

I'm being serious here. I know you and others like to insist it's just a volunteering opportunity and no one is being forced to do anything, but the fear of being ostracized for not doing this (which in turn affecting AOA, which in many places is hugely affected by popularity) is real.

Fear is often unfounded, see our entire country for reference...

pressure for not volunteering

Show me the evidence of this, otherwise we're just extrapolating on 'what ifs', which is pointless.

You are taking that school's word as a fact to make a claim there's zero pressure involved not to volunteer and then dismissing the points of concern as exaggerated and over the top.

Again, where's the evidence?

Also what i don't get is why didn't UTSW utilize premed clinical volunteers to help out with this? It makes no sense to request MS1s and MS2s to do these tasks that premeds do for clinical experience

This is a fair point. My take is that the difference is that med students may actually have the clinical knowledge to gain something from it whereas a pre-med is almost certainly going to be clueless to the actual clinical relevance of what they're seeing. Pre-meds are more likely to just do the scut and maybe listen to rounds about things they have no clue about. Med students, especially M2s, may actually get a chance to see how all the crap (or at least some of the relevant parts) they've been studying actually apply clinically. However, I do think this is exactly the kind of clinical volunteering med schools would be interested in seeing from pre-med applicants.

Mention anything about med students being exploited and the attendings will come and smack you down. It's a major cultural problem and honestly the one good thing midlevels did was teaching midlevel students how to defend and be proud of their profession

Don't confuse the bolded with indoctrination. PA programs often do a good job of this as they have classes and training alongside med students. The NP side is far more about indoctrination, though I admit they do a fantastic job of instilling impressive amounts of pride.

There were already comments from nurses that nursing students have no time for this crap nor will they allow nursing students to be exploited by the hospital systems. Nurses know how to lobby and actively protect future generations.

The most accurate thing you've said in this thread, the AMA needs to take some lessons from nursing there.

 

[Lawpy]

This is legitimately one of the dumbest things I've ever seen on this sight and I've read the pre-med forums for years...

Seriously, this would be golden material for an interview. Asking them about the experience, what they gained, etc would tell a lot about how they would function in residency and part of a team. Especially if they get an LOR from an attending they interacted with, would tell me that candidate knew how to play the game and we don't have enough of those physicians in medicine.



Fear is often unfounded, see our entire country for reference...


Show me the evidence of this, otherwise we're just extrapolating on 'what ifs', which is pointless.


Again, where's the evidence?



This is a fair point. My take is that the difference is that med students may actually have the clinical knowledge to gain something from it whereas a pre-med is almost certainly going to be clueless to the actual clinical relevance of what they're seeing. Pre-meds are more likely to just do the scut and maybe listen to rounds about things they have no clue about. Med students, especially M2s, may actually get a chance to see how all the crap (or at least some of the relevant parts) they've been studying actually apply clinically. However, I do think this is exactly the kind of clinical volunteering med schools would be interested in seeing from pre-med applicants.




Don't confuse the bolded with indoctrination. PA programs often do a good job of this as they have classes and training alongside med students. The NP side is far more about indoctrination, though I admit they do a fantastic job of instilling impressive amounts of pride.




The most accurate thing you've said in this thread, the AMA needs to take some lessons from nursing there.

There are several hospitals that transition premed volunteers to more clinical roles after training (i saw several currently or planning to apply to med school taking ECGs and vitals). These duties UTSW are asking don't appear to be relevant for med students.

 

[Stagg737]

There are several hospitals that transition premed volunteers to more clinical roles after training (i saw several currently or planning to apply to med school taking ECGs and vitals). These duties UTSW are asking don't appear to be relevant for med students.

In most states this is illegal unless an individual has a certification like EMT or CNA. For those with that level of clinical exposure before going to med school, that's certainly a valid option. But for most med students this is not the case and hospital liability insurance or even state law will not allow med students to do things like take ECGs or draw blood (pretty much anyone can do vitals with minimal training though, which is why UTSW said volunteers could do that).

 

[Bonehead718]

Let's treat the disease, not the symptom here. Why is there a nursing shortage in Texas? Maybe it stems to the politics of the state -- no mask mandates, lagging vax rates, outright malicious policies against HCW. I'm not saying this shortage is covid specific, but I'm sure the state's response to Covid is deterring the wishes of travel nurses to fill those spots.

I was a tech for almost 3 years before med school. It has so far been an enormous leg up in pre-clinicals already vs those in my class who just shadowed a PCP a few times. I wouldn't say this opportunity is outright malicious and useless. However, given how major hospital corporations have exploited HCW before to save pennies, I empathize with people's contempt towards this request.

I don't have a direct view of what's happening over there. But I think it's important to remember this kind of thing is happening in a lot of southern states that typically treat healthcare as an afterthought rather than as a priority.

 

[Lawpy]

In most states this is illegal unless an individual has a certification like EMT or CNA. For those with that level of clinical exposure before going to med school, that's certainly a valid option. But for most med students this is not the case and hospital liability insurance or even state law will not allow med students to do things like take ECGs or draw blood (pretty much anyone can do vitals with minimal training though, which is why UTSW said volunteers could do that).

Well they transitioned to employees, so yeah they likely were certified.

 

[Lawpy]

Let's treat the disease, not the symptom here. Why is there a nursing shortage in Texas? Maybe it stems to the politics of the state -- no mask mandates, lagging vax rates, outright malicious policies against HCW. I'm not saying this shortage is covid specific, but I'm sure the state's response to Covid is deterring the wishes of travel nurses to fill those spots.

I was a tech for almost 3 years before med school. It has so far been an enormous leg up in pre-clinicals already vs those in my class who just shadowed a PCP a few times. I wouldn't say this opportunity is outright malicious and useless. However, given how major hospital corporations have exploited HCW before to save pennies, I empathize with people's contempt towards this request.

I don't have a direct view of what's happening over there. But I think it's important to remember this kind of thing is happening in a lot of southern states that typically treat healthcare as an afterthought rather than as a priority.

Yes i agree with this

 

[Redpancreas]

Honestly I think everyone in this thread would be of similar opinion but we're all on different pages focusing on different elements. I like Stagg's phrasing of "you get what you make of it" but then also it's kind of like...is that even realistic? They are mentioning non-professional tasks including picking up trays, patient transport, etc. These are the expectations. When medical students pick up these shifts, they are volunteering their time with likely nothing to learn to doing this. Let's be real for a second. Attending physicians go around and hardly have time to teach residents. Then there's medical students who are often just cast aside. What makes you think adding these volunteers with even less clinical knowledge and experience will give students an opportunity to interact with attending? I would characterize it as disingenuous and not exploitative. The email using phrases like "exciting opportunity" and flashing "second assist for procedures" point is fools-gold. This is likely not second assist for small medical procedures. It's likely something like holding the patient's arms down so the nurse can do XYZ.

Someone else asked why pre-med volunteers aren't being made to do this. After thinking for a second, I think I can see why. Volunteer programs at the end of the day need a coordinator and policies drawn up and even starting such an initiative during covid and accepting people who aren't even in medical school opens them up to HUGE liability. What if someone gets COVID and has to be hospitalized. With medical students volunteering, they can say that medical students signed up for this at some point and signed the technical standards agreements, etc.

That said, this isn't going to be something you're stigmatized for not doing and there's a certain group of students who really have no problems doing stuff like this completely voluntarily for no external gain.

 

[sunshinefl]

Honestly I think everyone in this thread would be of similar opinion but we're all on different pages focusing on different elements. I like Stagg's phrasing of "you get what you make of it" but then also it's kind of like...is that even realistic? They are mentioning non-professional tasks including picking up trays, patient transport, etc. These are the expectations. When medical students pick up these shifts, they are volunteering their time with likely nothing to learn to doing this. Let's be real for a second. Attending physicians go around and hardly have time to teach residents. Then there's medical students who are often just cast aside. What makes you think adding these volunteers with even less clinical knowledge and experience will give students an opportunity to interact with attending? I would characterize it as disingenuous and not exploitative. The email using phrases like "exciting opportunity" and flashing "second assist for procedures" point is fools-gold. This is likely not second assist for small medical procedures. It's likely something like holding the patient's arms down so the nurse can do XYZ.

Someone else asked why pre-med volunteers aren't being made to do this. After thinking for a second, I think I can see why. Volunteer programs at the end of the day need a coordinator and policies drawn up and even starting such an initiative during covid and accepting people who aren't even in medical school opens them up to HUGE liability. What if someone gets COVID and has to be hospitalized. With medical students volunteering, they can say that medical students signed up for this at some point and signed the technical standards agreements, etc.

That said, this isn't going to be something you're stigmatized for not doing and there's a certain group of students who really have no problems doing stuff like this completely voluntarily for no external gain.

I was a CNA and then an RN before medical school. Being a CNA is HARD WORK, but not remotely an educational experience to allow these medical students to apply their clinical knowledge. It’s not like early clinical exposure in the form of clerkships. This is CNA work without pay. They are taking advantage of a pool of medical students to avoid paying people for WORK.

 

[wholeheartedly]

I keep reading this and i can't

"We are launching a new program with UT using volunteer Med Students as staff supporters. The Med Students will work in a supportive fashion assisting the PCA’s & nursing staff with general tasks associated with the Unlicensed Clinical Staff role such as assisting with vital signs, transport, picking up trays, and other non-professional tasks identified by the Charge RN. They can even help cover call lights during staff meal breaks to improve the odds of core staff getting a full 30 minutes uninterrupted."

UTSW was clearly looking for MS1s/MS2s to act like CNAs and premed volunteers

The idea of volunteering is that you do something for someone else’s benefit, not your own. The goals here are primarily to ensure continuity patient care and relieve strain on caregivers who’ve been drowning in covid and overworked the whole pandemic. There are some potential benefits to the med student, but ultimately it’s about most efficiently getting **** done that needs to be done for patients.

I spent a year and a half running hospital epidemiology and infection control at my facility. We had surgery nurses pulld to cover hospital floors and the ER and the nursing home, because we were short because staff were out sick or quarantined or caring for a loved one who was sick.
We had business office staff and admins out with mops and wipes cleaning and disinfecting. We had registration staff and maintenance staff acting as specimen couriers driving samples to the state lab, I had IT and admins fetching supplies. We had all kinds people doing all kinds of things to get he job done and plenty of people volunteering to do whatever was needed because that’s what it takes in a crisis. We took all comers.

When you’re in a crisis you need people to jump in and do whatever is needed that’s in their capacity to do. Most of this is a manpower issue. There might not be value to you as a med student picking up trays, transporting patients, or relieving exhausted nurses or CNAs who are at their breaking points dealing with this, and freeing up other staff to focus on higher yield tasks that require their training, but those ARE things that need to happen for good patient care to be provided, so they are in fact very valuable tasks.

i’d argue that a few people could benefit seeing what this beatdown has been like firsthand. just because you aren’t advancing your clinical skills doesn’t mean it can’t be valuable and informative to you also.

But if you don’t want the unpaid volunteering, nobody is holding a gun to your head making you do it.

 

[wholeheartedly]

I definitely agree that hospital admins are completely clueless and exploit HCW for the bottom line, but the reality is that patients need care now today and you aren’t going to solve the issues of the healthcare system anytime soon.