UVA or UPENN CGS

[nabeel76]

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I am a non-traditional student transfering to finish my undergraduate degree.

UVA college of Arts and Sciences OR UPENN College of General Studies?

Which would you guys do?

 

[sunnyjohn]

I am a non-traditional student transfering to finish my undergraduate degree.

UVA college of Arts and Sciences OR UPENN College of General Studies?

Which would you guys do?

Nabeel76, I thought you had already decided on Penn???

 

[nabeel76]

Nabeel76, I thought you had already decided on Penn???

I pretty much have, but before I reject UVA I want to make certain that I am making the best choice. UVA is my state school and would be either cheaper or the same as CGS. And at UVA there is now something called AccessUVA which looks like they pay more of your tuition in grants than loans which would be cool as well. Penn - I am not too big of a fan of night classes so will probably end up with a good amount of day classes raising the cost of attendance. Also, with Penn there is no set tuition since you are paying on a course by course basis. I am not too certain how I am going to arrange for loans this way. I do not plan to work while at school and do not want to be in a situation where I am worrying about payment for classes etc.

Penn Certainty factor = -5%

My biggest uncertainty, however, is in regards to how medical schools view CGS undergrads in relation to undergrads from other top schools such as UVA? If they view them as regular Penn Students then my choice is PENN all the way. If not I would like to acquire more information on exactly how they are viewed. I for the most part am certain that they are viewed favorably from the previous advice recieved from this site and the number of post-grads from CGS accepted into top medical schools, but am not too certain on how the undergrad CGS students stack up compared to traditional Penn grads or UVA grads.

Penn Certainty factor = -10%

As of right now it's 85% Penn / 15% UVA - I would love to be 100% Penn or 100 % UVA but will settle for 95% if I can get it.

 

[mshheaddoc]

I think you are worrying too much. If you want penn go with it. You are worried on the name. Its penn, stop worrying about where its from and get the grades 🙂

 

[MasterShakeDO]

I don't think it's looked down upon that the class was CGS. Many fulltime Penn students take the night classes as well cause it fits their schedules better. And if you do in fact take day classes, it's the same classes the rest of the undergrads take. But just cause it's Penn, doesn't mean med schools will drool over an A at Penn. They won't. Everybody and their mother gets As at Penn. Can you say Ivy League grade inflation?

 

[sidewalkman]

I'm gonna go the other way and pick UVA. Reasons:

Choice of Majors: CGS is pretty limited here; only bio, English, and history (an maybe a few others) can be completed entirely at night. You can major in anything from the 'day' school, but you have to pony up the $$ to do so. At UVA, though, you can major in whatever you want and not worry about course tuitions, enrollment issues (do day students at Penn get preference?), etc. Edge: UVA

Cost. If you plan on taking any day classes at Penn, which it sounds like you are, tack on another 2K+ per course for the privilege. Is 2k+ really worth the Penn name/education compared to UVA? I say no. Throw in the potential grant availability at UVA and... Edge: UVA

Rep: UVA's cool. As for Penn CGS, will everyone in CGS also be afilliated with the day school (i.e. does Penn hire adjuncts for CGS to save money)? Just something to think about. The overall rep of CGS is fine, since post-baccs take the same sciences and do pretty well in the end. But for the degree itself, one quote sticks out from the info session: "If you has a 3.3+ GPA from community college, you should get in." That's it? My thoughts of the degree program went slightly down after this statement, but that's just me. Edge: Even.

Location: Can't really advise you on this; depends on what you like. But I'm biased 😉 Edge: Penn.

That's why I say UVA, but if you're 85% Penn CGS, pick that program and move on! 😀

 

[nabeel76]

I'm gonna go the other way and pick UVA. Reasons:

Choice of Majors: CGS is pretty limited here; only bio, English, and history (an maybe a few others) can be completed entirely at night. You can major in anything from the 'day' school, but you have to pony up the $$ to do so. At UVA, though, you can major in whatever you want and not worry about course tuitions, enrollment issues (do day students at Penn get preference?), etc. Edge: UVA

Cost. If you plan on taking any day classes at Penn, which it sounds like you are, tack on another 2K+ per course for the privilege. Is 2k+ really worth the Penn name/education compared to UVA? I say no. Throw in the potential grant availability at UVA and... Edge: UVA

Rep: UVA's cool. As for Penn CGS, will everyone in CGS also be afilliated with the day school (i.e. does Penn hire adjuncts for CGS to save money)? Just something to think about. The overall rep of CGS is fine, since post-baccs take the same sciences and do pretty well in the end. But for the degree itself, one quote sticks out from the info session: "If you has a 3.3+ GPA from community college, you should get in." That's it? My thoughts of the degree program went slightly down after this statement, but that's just me. Edge: Even.

Location: Can't really advise you on this; depends on what you like. But I'm biased 😉 Edge: Penn.

That's why I say UVA, but if you're 85% Penn CGS, pick that program and move on! 😀

Thanks for the reply. I do agree that UVA has Penn beat in terms of finance. As far as faculty/staff at Penn CGS being associated with the day school I am not too certain. It says on the CGS website that most of the professors are the traditional day professors but also states that they hire part time professors dedicated to CGS courses. I am not sure on what the ratio is between dedicated CGS professors and traditional Penn professors but am still hoping that the professors are of the same caliber regardless.

The fact that a community college student with a 3.3 gpa can get accepted is what kills some of the Penn prestige factor w/ me as well. It just doesn’t feel like Penn when you know that a 3.3 will get you in? At UVA you will not get in with a 3.3 from a CC. Thus, I am kind of worried about the reputation of the program - but apparently everyone keeps telling me that it's still Penn and the classes are still the same, which is good. Kind of too good to be true - a major backdoor into the school. I guess I am still in that "if it’s too good to be true than there's a catch" mentality. I am looking for the catch! lol But in your response you gave it "edge: even" so apparently even while its less competitive (CGS vs. UVA) you feel that it fairs the same in regards to reputation?

Well - I am going to go to Penn because I feel at my age (28) it would be a better fit for me - location, flexibility, housing, etc. But still want to entertain opinions by anyone with first hand knowledge of CGS. I don't want to feel that I have made the wrong choice after it’s too late.

P.S. I have heard of the success rate of the post-bac programs at Penn into medical school, but have not yet heard of any medical school applicants that actually completed there undergrad degree at CGS before applying. Does anybody know of any such cases? If so, how successful were they? I called the prehealth advisor and the CGS counselors and they could not think of any cases where there where even premedical students in the CGS undergraduate program? This has got me a little worried and is pretty much the reason that I am even pondering the reputation of the program. Thoughts?

 

[nabeel76]

I think you are worrying too much. If you want penn go with it. You are worried on the name. Its penn, stop worrying about where its from and get the grades 🙂

mshheaddoc - You are absolutely right and I know it. But I still can't seem to stop myself from worrying for some reason. Kind of funny because I was a complete screw up about 10 years ago and something like this would of been the last thing on my mind. I have come from one extreme to the next. 🙂 Can't decide which one is better. 🙂

 

[nabeel76]

I don't think it's looked down upon that the class was CGS. Many fulltime Penn students take the night classes as well cause it fits their schedules better. And if you do in fact take day classes, it's the same classes the rest of the undergrads take. But just cause it's Penn, doesn't mean med schools will drool over an A at Penn. They won't. Everybody and their mother gets As at Penn. Can you say Ivy League grade inflation?

I keep hearing about this Ivy league grade inflation? Does this mean that it should be easier to keep A's at Penn than say UVA? If so, this is a big plus in my book.

P.S. Does this inflation apply to CGS as well?

 

[mshheaddoc]

mshheaddoc - You are absolutely right and I know it. But I still can't seem to stop myself from worrying for some reason. Kind of funny because I was a complete screw up about 10 years ago and something like this would of been the last thing on my mind. I have come from one extreme to the next. 🙂 Can't decide which one is better. 🙂

Hey i'm in the same boat and I'm just doing it at a state school b/c I can't afford. I thought of penn but the schedule and money is too much. If you like penn, its a program with great opportunities in the city for research, volunteering etc. 👍

 

[amaranthxx]

Hi,

This will be my first official post on SDN 🙂

I am currently a Penn post-bac. I thought I might be able to help you with your decision by telling you about my experience so far. Granted, this is just my experience.

First off, I took Intro Bio, Organic Chem, Organic Chem Lab ( which is a completely separate class with its own lecture component. It is insane, but more about that later), Physics, and several advance biology courses through CGS night classes.

I took Vertebrate Physiology, Intro to Cell Bio and Biochem, and Intro to Moelcular Bio and Genetics through day classes.

I like the day classes because they tend to meet more often for shorter periods, so you don't end up having to sit in class for 3hrs. I haven't yet had a bad day class professor. They are generally very good, and even with Penn being a research focused insitution, the professors I have had are very willing to meet with you and make sure you understand things. It is fun also to have professors who actually discovered the things in the textbook.

The CGS classes are good because you are usually with other post-bacs so you can meet other people and form study groups. People are pretty focused because you are all working toward the same goal. I have also found that people are very willing to help each other out. It is not competitive. However, for Organic and Physics the professors are from other universities in Philly not Penn. Sometimes this makes it difficult to meet with the professor to ask questions because they don't have offices here and usually come directly from their home school just in time for class. This was my biggest problem. You can use email, though. However, Gen Chem and Bio are usually taught by Penn faculty. Also CGS classes tend to be smaller, which may or may not matter too you.

Also from what I have been able to discern, the math department has two great math professors and that is it, and one of them only teaches the CGS Calculus sequence. So, that is good.

As far as grade inflation and making an easy A, I haven't experienced that. I graduated from UTAustin with a 4.0 (though I had gone to a different school my first two years and didn't do very well) and I have to work much harder to get an A here. Granted I am taking all science classes, but even considering that. Only about 10% of the class gets an A, which includes A-. The rest usually get some form of a B. There are a few classes I have taken that don't curve, so if you get a 90 you get an A- etc. However, with one of these classes the average test scores were 67, 69, and 78. So, I wouldn't call that easy. With the curve, the average is usually set at C+/B-.

However, as with any school, there are always those couple of classes that are easier than the others. Penn has those too. I think Chemistry of the Brain and Body Fluid Regulations are an exmaple. However, the instructor of these classes is the best lecturer I have had at Penn. I have learned a lot in his classes. What makes them easier than others is even though his test are challenging and make you think, he doesn't go out of his way to trip you up. You do the work; you get the grade.

The other thing I think is an assest for Penn is the plethora of opportunities to get exposure to the medical field. There are always research postions openning up, and there are many different volunteer opprotunities at the different hosptials. If there is some field you want to learn more about, chances are you can.

Also, ( this is a going to be a shameless plug), there is a student run organization for post-bacs called PPS - Penn Post-Bac Society. It is here to create social cohesion and acadmeic network. They have a website (www.penn-pps.org) of class reviews, reviews of MCAT/DAT prep classes and materials, and reviews of volunteer experiences. There is a list serve where people post about creating study groups for classes, meeting up for a drink after finals, etc. It is a nice resource to have.

I have enjoyed my expereince here. There have been a few bumps, but basically I have had some interesting classes with some great teachers and met some really wonderful people.

If you have any specific questions, let me know and I will try to answer them.

 

[nabeel76]

Hey i'm in the same boat and I'm just doing it at a state school b/c I can't afford. I thought of penn but the schedule and money is too much. If you like penn, its a program with great opportunities in the city for research, volunteering etc. 👍

Yeah I got that feeling as well when I visited the campus and the philly area. I think it'll be fun and am feeling better about my decision thanks to all on this site.

I noticed you were planning on attending the Wash DC Conference. Are you going to be able to make it out? I just booked my room via the Sheraton website, pretty convenient. Plus only 118 a night, can't beat that in DC!

 

[nabeel76]

Hi,

This will be my first official post on SDN 🙂

I am currently a Penn post-bac. I thought I might be able to help you with your decision by telling you about my experience so far. Granted, this is just my experience.

First off, I took Intro Bio, Organic Chem, Organic Chem Lab ( which is a completely separate class with its own lecture component. It is insane, but more about that later), Physics, and several advance biology courses through CGS night classes.

I took Vertebrate Physiology, Intro to Cell Bio and Biochem, and Intro to Moelcular Bio and Genetics through day classes.

I like the day classes because they tend to meet more often for shorter periods, so you don't end up having to sit in class for 3hrs. I haven't yet had a bad day class professor. They are generally very good, and even with Penn being a research focused insitution, the professors I have had are very willing to meet with you and make sure you understand things. It is fun also to have professors who actually discovered the things in the textbook.

The CGS classes are good because you are usually with other post-bacs so you can meet other people and form study groups. People are pretty focused because you are all working toward the same goal. I have also found that people are very willing to help each other out. It is not competitive. However, for Organic and Physics the professors are from other universities in Philly not Penn. Sometimes this makes it difficult to meet with the professor to ask questions because they don't have offices here and usually come directly from their home school just in time for class. This was my biggest problem. You can use email, though. However, Gen Chem and Bio are usually taught by Penn faculty. Also CGS classes tend to be smaller, which may or may not matter too you.

Also from what I have been able to discern, the math department has two great math professors and that is it, and one of them only teaches the CGS Calculus sequence. So, that is good.

As far as grade inflation and making an easy A, I haven't experienced that. I graduated from UTAustin with a 4.0 (though I had gone to a different school my first two years and didn't do very well) and I have to work much harder to get an A here. Granted I am taking all science classes, but even considering that. Only about 10% of the class gets an A, which includes A-. The rest usually get some form of a B. There are a few classes I have taken that don't curve, so if you get a 90 you get an A- etc. However, with one of these classes the average test scores were 67, 69, and 78. So, I wouldn't call that easy. With the curve, the average is usually set at C+/B-.

However, as with any school, there are always those couple of classes that are easier than the others. Penn has those too. I think Chemistry of the Brain and Body Fluid Regulations are an exmaple. However, the instructor of these classes is the best lecturer I have had at Penn. I have learned a lot in his classes. What makes them easier than others is even though his test are challenging and make you think, he doesn't go out of his way to trip you up. You do the work; you get the grade.

The other thing I think is an assest for Penn is the plethora of opportunities to get exposure to the medical field. There are always research postions openning up, and there are many different volunteer opprotunities at the different hosptials. If there is some field you want to learn more about, chances are you can.

Also, ( this is a going to be a shameless plug), there is a student run organization for post-bacs called PPS - Penn Post-Bac Society. It is here to create social cohesion and acadmeic network. They have a website (www.penn-pps.org) of class reviews, reviews of MCAT/DAT prep classes and materials, and reviews of volunteer experiences. There is a list serve where people post about creating study groups for classes, meeting up for a drink after finals, etc. It is a nice resource to have.

I have enjoyed my expereince here. There have been a few bumps, but basically I have had some interesting classes with some great teachers and met some really wonderful people.

If you have any specific questions, let me know and I will try to answer them.

amaranthxx - That was quite an impressive first post. You definitely have my first post beat. 🙂 Welcome aboard! I am feeling much better about my decision after reading that. Good to hear that the professors are good, and I actually prefer the small classes. I did generate a couple of questions after reading your post, if you don't mind answering them. Here they are:

1. You mentioned that the classes were a bit harder (grade wise) than previous schools you have attended. Did you notice a difficulty level difference between the day classes at the CAS or the night classes at CGS?

2. If so how much harder/easier was it? Or does this depend entirely on the teacher? Are teachers expectations higher in the day classes as opposed to the evening classes; in regards to caliber of work, quantity of work or difficulty of work?

3. How hard is it to find student course evaluations on certain teachers, and is there usually more than one teacher teaching a given course in a given semester? Regardless of it being CGS or CAS. I am assuming that with CGS this might not be a luxury, but how about the day classes?

Sorry for all of the questions. Any help would be appreciated!

Thanks!

 

[mshheaddoc]

Yeah I got that feeling as well when I visited the campus and the philly area. I think it'll be fun and am feeling better about my decision thanks to all on this site.

I noticed you were planning on attending the Wash DC Conference. Are you going to be able to make it out? I just booked my room via the Sheraton website, pretty convenient. Plus only 118 a night, can't beat that in DC!

Yep! I will see you there! I will be arriving Thurs afternoon! We will have to exchange information!!

 

[nabeel76]

Yep! I will see you there! I will be arriving Thurs afternoon! We will have to exchange information!!

Definitely, I work in DC so am going to be heading down right after work. If you are not familiar with the area let me know and I might be of some help. Glad to hear that you can make it out, sounds like it'll be fun.

 

[amaranthxx]

1. You mentioned that the classes were a bit harder (grade wise) than previous schools you have attended. Did you notice a difficulty level difference between the day classes at the CAS or the night classes at CGS?

2. If so how much harder/easier was it? Or does this depend entirely on the teacher? Are teachers expectations higher in the day classes as opposed to the evening classes; in regards to caliber of work, quantity of work or difficulty of work?

In the answer to the first two questions...I think it depends on the teacher. Generally, I have been very successful in the day classes, I didn't find them harder than the CGS classes, and in most cases, I found them easier. I think this is because of a couple different reasons: For day students to be a full time student you must take 4 classes, but for pre-med post bacs it is 3, probabrly because we are taking all science. So, I had one less class to worry about. Second, I am older and more focused and dedicated than many of the undergaduates in the day class. Not all, but many. This gives me an edge when it comes to the curve. Third, meeting M/W/F for 50 mintues or T/TH for 80 min is a format I am used to from undergraduate. I prefer it over meeting once a week in the evenings for 3 hrs. Not all CGS classes meet once a week, but they do meet in the evening, and I get more out of a class if I take it during the day. I think this is a personal thing, though. Fourth, most day classes have reciatations were you hand in H.W problems and can discuss any questions you have about things, whereas some CGS classes don't have this. I found the HW sets helped you with the test.

It might seem crazy but I think CGS classes can be harder sometimes because the professors expect more from you because you are older students. In addition, you are in a class full of people who want to get As and who are focused on the same thing you are, so I think certain teachers will make test more difficult than they would for a day class to help differentiate the As from the Bs. I don't think this is universally true, but this was my experience with Physics.

However, most CGS professors know we are here to get into medical/dental school and they are also aware that grades matter. So, though they are harder sometimes, they aren't try to make you get Cs. For example, my CGS biochem class this semester has been really difficult and challenging. She said she wouldn't curve and the class average on the tests are below 70( which total 50% of our grade). She made her test very difficult. She thinks it is important for us to learn biochem thoroughtly because it is am important class in medical school. I have learned an amazing amount of information from that class. However, she new that having a test average below 70 wasn't good so class participation and handing in HW are 20% of the grade...which is basically free points and then she easied up a little bit on the final. After the second test, I went in and talked to her, and told her that I couldn't get less than an A- in her class because I am a Texas resident and a B+ will just become a B on the application, and my GPA can't take that. She was very receptive and helpful in figuring out what I needed to change about my studying and what I needed to get on the last exam in order to get be where I wanted. I think if in the end I am on the cusp, she will give it to me because I went in, showed intitative, and explained things.

I didn't think the day classes expected more from you than the CGS classes, or were harder. I only had trouble with one day class, and that was because it took me a while to figure out his testing style and what he thought was important. The problem could have been avoided if I had just gone in and talked with him earlier in the semester.

3. How hard is it to find student course evaluations on certain teachers, and is there usually more than one teacher teaching a given course in a given semester? Regardless of it being CGS or CAS. I am assuming that with CGS this might not be a luxury, but how about the day classes?

The Penn Course review has the statistics on all the teacher evaulation forms that are completed for every class in the university every semester. However, they are just statistics. When I read those, I want to know why a teacher got a 3 out of 4 in difficulty. What it the amount of the material, the subject matter, a bad teaching style, insane tests? What exactly made it difficult or easy. That is why the post-bac student organization created a reviews sections, so that students could write in words why they thought a class was easy or hard or give advice on how to study for that teacher's exams, etc. As a PPS student, you can join the PPS yahoogroup and get the password for these reviews.

CGS classes tend to have only one professor teaching a course. This is not the case for intro science classes in the day. However, when you get to some upper division classes like cancer cell biology or infectious disease, these are usually taught by a single professor in a single section in both day and CGS

I hope that helps some. If you have more questions feel free to ask. I need to go to sleep so I can finish my immuno take home final tomorrow. : )

Hope to see you around here next year.

 

[nabeel76]

In the answer to the first two questions...I think it depends on the teacher. Generally, I have been very successful in the day classes, I didn't find them harder than the CGS classes, and in most cases, I found them easier. I think this is because of a couple different reasons: For day students to be a full time student you must take 4 classes, but for pre-med post bacs it is 3, probabrly because we are taking all science. So, I had one less class to worry about. Second, I am older and more focused and dedicated than many of the undergaduates in the day class. Not all, but many. This gives me an edge when it comes to the curve. Third, meeting M/W/F for 50 mintues or T/TH for 80 min is a format I am used to from undergraduate. I prefer it over meeting once a week in the evenings for 3 hrs. Not all CGS classes meet once a week, but they do meet in the evening, and I get more out of a class if I take it during the day. I think this is a personal thing, though. Fourth, most day classes have reciatations were you hand in H.W problems and can discuss any questions you have about things, whereas some CGS classes don't have this. I found the HW sets helped you with the test.

It might seem crazy but I think CGS classes can be harder sometimes because the professors expect more from you because you are older students. In addition, you are in a class full of people who want to get As and who are focused on the same thing you are, so I think certain teachers will make test more difficult than they would for a day class to help differentiate the As from the Bs. I don't think this is universally true, but this was my experience with Physics.

However, most CGS professors know we are here to get into medical/dental school and they are also aware that grades matter. So, though they are harder sometimes, they aren't try to make you get Cs. For example, my CGS biochem class this semester has been really difficult and challenging. She said she wouldn't curve and the class average on the tests are below 70( which total 50% of our grade). She made her test very difficult. She thinks it is important for us to learn biochem thoroughtly because it is am important class in medical school. I have learned an amazing amount of information from that class. However, she new that having a test average below 70 wasn't good so class participation and handing in HW are 20% of the grade...which is basically free points and then she easied up a little bit on the final. After the second test, I went in and talked to her, and told her that I couldn't get less than an A- in her class because I am a Texas resident and a B+ will just become a B on the application, and my GPA can't take that. She was very receptive and helpful in figuring out what I needed to change about my studying and what I needed to get on the last exam in order to get be where I wanted. I think if in the end I am on the cusp, she will give it to me because I went in, showed intitative, and explained things.

I didn't think the day classes expected more from you than the CGS classes, or were harder. I only had trouble with one day class, and that was because it took me a while to figure out his testing style and what he thought was important. The problem could have been avoided if I had just gone in and talked with him earlier in the semester.



The Penn Course review has the statistics on all the teacher evaulation forms that are completed for every class in the university every semester. However, they are just statistics. When I read those, I want to know why a teacher got a 3 out of 4 in difficulty. What it the amount of the material, the subject matter, a bad teaching style, insane tests? What exactly made it difficult or easy. That is why the post-bac student organization created a reviews sections, so that students could write in words why they thought a class was easy or hard or give advice on how to study for that teacher's exams, etc. As a PPS student, you can join the PPS yahoogroup and get the password for these reviews.

CGS classes tend to have only one professor teaching a course. This is not the case for intro science classes in the day. However, when you get to some upper division classes like cancer cell biology or infectious disease, these are usually taught by a single professor in a single section in both day and CGS

I hope that helps some. If you have more questions feel free to ask. I need to go to sleep so I can finish my immuno take home final tomorrow. : )

Hope to see you around here next year.

amaranthxx - Thanks for all of the great information, its better than gold at the moment. I am actually quite pleased to hear your opinion on the classes, because it was exactly what I wanted to hear. I too am used to the traditional day class environment, and love to study at night. I have taken night classes but something about the atmosphere of being in class at night is unproductive - in my experiences at least. Who knows maybe it's psychological, but the night classes that I have attended were the ones where everyone hated going to class, didn't really pay attention, wanted class to end early, no productive questions were being asked, and even the teachers would slack a bit - not to mention they were all long classes. It's kind of weird, but I didn't feel that way about my day classes - everyone was enthusiastic, full of energy, and wanted to learn and it's very contagious. So everything you have said so far has been music to my ears.

Out of curiosity was their a big age difference in the day classes? You did mention that you were older as well; did you feel out of place in the day classes? The community college classes that I have gotten accustomed to consisted of older and younger students but the average age was about 24 years old. But, I am assuming that the ‘traditional’ Penn student is more on the ball and focused starting at 18 straight out of high school. Also, is it harder for a CGS student to register for CAS day classes? Is there some sort of priority factor or is it first come first serve?

Well, I will be starting in the fall and am sure I will see you on campus. I applied for housing at Sansom place East and West and hopefully one of them will come through. If not, I will be the guy living in the card board box out in the street in front of the campus 🙂 That reminds me, I don’t know how you are paying for your classes, but I plan to take out loans and was just curious if there is anything special that you have heard of about CGS students and loans. So far all I have been told is fill out the fafsa and some online college financial aid forms, which seem to be standard for all students. I have no clue how they will allocate different amounts based on day classes or evening classes. Well, I have done as I have been told and inquired with the financial aid office to verify that as well, so I guess I will be fine. I just don’t want to end up in a situation where I don’t have my check before my classes start. Once again thanks for the useful information you’ve really helped me answer a lot of the questions that I couldn’t seem to find answers for.

P.S. If you drink, I owe you a drink or two for the exhaustive list of questions.

 

[lotus228]

The fact that a community college student with a 3.3 gpa can get accepted is what kills some of the Penn prestige factor w/ me as well. It just doesn’t feel like Penn when you know that a 3.3 will get you in? At UVA you will not get in with a 3.3 from a CC. Thus, I am kind of worried about the reputation of the program - but apparently everyone keeps telling me that it's still Penn and the classes are still the same, which is good. Kind of too good to be true - a major backdoor into the school. I guess I am still in that "if it’s too good to be true than there's a catch" mentality. I am looking for the catch! lol But in your response you gave it "edge: even" so apparently even while its less competitive (CGS vs. UVA) you feel that it fairs the same in regards to reputation?


hey guys.....is that really true?! 😱 I thought Penn was supposed to be selective. hmm...makes me wonder about the program now. 😕 what do you guys think about it?

 

[sunnyjohn]

Well isn't HES the backdoor into Harvard???

And I'm certainly not knocking HES.... It's been real good to more than a few SDNer's..lol


Some of use need "back doors" 'cause they would beat the c@#$ out of us if we tried to get in the front door. 😀

 

[lotus228]

I'm gonna go the other way and pick UVA. Reasons:

Rep: UVA's cool. As for Penn CGS, will everyone in CGS also be afilliated with the day school (i.e. does Penn hire adjuncts for CGS to save money)? Just something to think about. The overall rep of CGS is fine, since post-baccs take the same sciences and do pretty well in the end. But for the degree itself, one quote sticks out from the info session: "If you has a 3.3+ GPA from community college, you should get in." That's it? My thoughts of the degree program went slightly down after this statement, but that's just me. Edge: Even.

hey sidewalkman, was that info session from Penn? Ahhhhhh! Does anyone know of people from cc that got in?

 

[nabeel76]

Well isn't HES the backdoor into Harvard???

And I'm certainly not knocking HES.... It's been real good to more than a few SDNer's..lol


Some of use need "back doors" 'cause they would beat the c@#$ out of us if we tried to get in the front door. 😀

I could be mistaken because I haven't researched HES, but that wouldn't really be a bookdoor into Harvard. The Penn CGS program is considered a backdoor because you follow the same exact curriculum as a student in the College of Arts and Sciences, and are awarded the same undergraduate degree from Penn. You are also considered a full Penn student with access to everything a Penn student normally has access to in terms of gyms, libraries, counseling etc. You can also take your classes in any school of the University with the traditional Penn students as long as the courses are allowed within your majors guidelines, which are the same guidelines as traditional Penn students. You are also granted housing, financial aid etc. So as far as everything is concerned with a CGS undergraduate (not post bac, etc.) student you are basically a 'traditional Penn student' the only difference is the college within the school is CGS rather than CAS, Wharton, Engineering etc.

With HES you do not have full access to the University in terms of a traditional Harvard student. Not all of the libraries are available to you, housing isn't available, you can't take courses at any school within the university as a traditional Harvard student can, and am certain that you are not awarded the same undergraduate degree as a traditional Harvard student. So in this matter you wouldn't be considered a "harvard graduate" you would be considered a "HES" graduate. Also, they have seperate requirements for the degree programs and is pretty much considered a 'seperate entity' from Harvard. I wouldn't really consider this a backdoor into the school, it isnt really like the program at Penn.

 

[sidewalkman]

hey sidewalkman, was that info session from Penn? Ahhhhhh! Does anyone know of people from cc that got in?

Yes, yes it was. I went to one of the info sessions they offer on Saturdays (they're much more thorough than the evening info sessions, btw), and they have several students who are in the degree program speak about their experiences. At least one of the students was from a local community college and got his degree, so it clearly must be possible.

The prof who gave a 'sample lecture' at my session commented that he's taught his course during both the day and the evening, and prefers the students in the evening session because all of them actually do the reading. 😛 He even voiced a little frustration about day students taking his night class. That's just one prof's opinion, of course.


Nice summary on the differences between Penn and Harvard, nabeel76. As for the reputation question, for science classes the reputation b/n the 2 schools should be exactly the same due to Penn's great post-bacc program and UVA's good rep. I give a very, very, very slight edge to UVA, b/c I could just picture some stodgy old prof during interviews going 'what on Earth is CGS?' except with more swearing. Since this is so trivial, and probably has never happened, I think both programs are equally good reputation-wise.

 

[sidewalkman]

I'd also like to comment that Penn really is a great program. You'll get where you need to go through CGS. And it's not a big secret at all, at least locally. They advertise in the Philly Inquirer on a pretty regular basis, and anyone who does a little research can find out all of the pros and cons about the school. The unknowns stem from the fact that this option for getting a college degree really isn't mentioned to HS students at all. That's a shame, b/c those programs like Penn CGS definately would have served me and plenty of others better than a traditional day college.

 

[lotus228]

Yes, yes it was. I went to one of the info sessions they offer on Saturdays (they're much more thorough than the evening info sessions, btw), and they have several students who are in the degree program speak about their experiences. At least one of the students was from a local community college and got his degree, so it clearly must be possible.

ok, last question about Penn's program....is it selective at all, or do you think they accept anyone to fill the quota?

 

[sidewalkman]

ok, last question about Penn's program....is it selective at all, or do you think they accept anyone to fill the quota?

It is selective; in fact, I myself got rejected even though I just wanted to take intro bio part-time. (!) Now, my GPA is crappola (considerably below a 3.0), which is almost definately why I got rejected. I even went to one of their advisors to basically ask 'what are my chances,' who all but rejected me right there. Why I then applied, I have no idea, looking back on it.

Quota? The official line is that they don't have one. "If we feel 500 students are qualified, then we'll admit all 500," is another quote I remember from the info session. I wouldn't put much weight into that statement, if only because they probably don't have the space for all those students! 😛 They also claim that the essay is the most important part of the application package. It seems to me, however, that the GPA is more important than any other part of the app. I just kept getting the impression (through HS, college, SDN, etc.) that Penn likes their students to have high GPAs first and foremost.

 

[calbear15]

ok, last question about Penn's program....is it selective at all, or do you think they accept anyone to fill the quota?

they don't compare you to other applicants, they just measure you to a standard. If you meet the standard, you'll get in. What that standard is, I don't know.

I got accepted two days ago. During my phone interview, I got the feeling that my interviewer REALLY reviewed my application in detail. We talked extensively about my application and she made me explain quite a bit. So it's not just about the numbers. They care about who you are as a person and they want to know if you're suited for the medical profession.

My stats were 2.3 BCPM, 3.1 overall, 32Q MCAT

Just in case you care, I got rejected by UConn, Northwestern, Loyola and Drexel IMS. Accepted to PCOM, UMDNJ, Barry U, EVMS and UPenn.

good luck

 

[MasterShakeDO]

I went to CGS cause I worked at Penn and they paid for two of my classes each semester, so I decide to finish my pre-med pre-reqs. From my experience, CGS accepts everyone who works at Penn, even those who never went to college. They're more selective for the Pre-Health special program, but not regular CGS. So maybe you can get a research job at Penn and backdoor your way to CGS and then go to med school. It was a great route for me, as Penn has great employee benefits.

 

[sunnyjohn]

I went to CGS cause I worked at Penn and they paid for two of my classes each semester, so I decide to finish my pre-med pre-reqs. From my experience, CGS accepts everyone who works at Penn, even those who never went to college. They're more selective for the Pre-Health special program, but not regular CGS. So maybe you can get a research job at Penn and backdoor your way to CGS and then go to med school. It was a great route for me, as Penn has great employee benefits.

Do they consider the "Penn hospitals" part of the system for tuition reimbursement purposes?

.... Oh I read in the website catalog that you have to be of a certain age to enter CGS, so it rules out new high school grads

 

[lotus228]

It is selective; in fact, I myself got rejected even though I just wanted to take intro bio part-time. (!) Now, my GPA is crappola (considerably below a 3.0), which is almost definately why I got rejected. I even went to one of their advisors to basically ask 'what are my chances,' who all but rejected me right there. Why I then applied, I have no idea, looking back on it.

hey sidewalkman, sorry to hear about that. so what did you do instead?

 

[lotus228]

I went to CGS cause I worked at Penn and they paid for two of my classes each semester, so I decide to finish my pre-med pre-reqs. From my experience, CGS accepts everyone who works at Penn, even those who never went to college. They're more selective for the Pre-Health special program, but not regular CGS. So maybe you can get a research job at Penn and backdoor your way to CGS and then go to med school. It was a great route for me, as Penn has great employee benefits.

what's the regular CGS? i thought for the sciences it's either the special science program or the pre-health one.

 

[lotus228]

I went to CGS cause I worked at Penn and they paid for two of my classes each semester, so I decide to finish my pre-med pre-reqs. From my experience, CGS accepts everyone who works at Penn, even those who never went to college. They're more selective for the Pre-Health special program, but not regular CGS. So maybe you can get a research job at Penn and backdoor your way to CGS and then go to med school. It was a great route for me, as Penn has great employee benefits.

wait a minute...i thought one of the requirements to even apply to the CGS was to have a bachlor's degree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[MasterShakeDO]

No, we had someone who never went to college, around 40 years old get to take Penn classes. And you don't need to be in a special program to be in CGS. CGS just refers to any night class offered not part of the other colleges.

 

[sunnyjohn]

You can get a degree through CGS, just take classes for "enrichment" or do the post-Bacc...... No degree required.....

http://www.sas.upenn.edu/CGS/

 

[chopsmith]

I went to CGS cause I worked at Penn and they paid for two of my classes each semester, so I decide to finish my pre-med pre-reqs. From my experience, CGS accepts everyone who works at Penn, even those who never went to college. They're more selective for the Pre-Health special program, but not regular CGS. So maybe you can get a research job at Penn and backdoor your way to CGS and then go to med school. It was a great route for me, as Penn has great employee benefits.

Hey MasterShakeDO,

I saw your post which indicated that you worked at Penn and then decided to go to CGS. Did you enter the post bac program, or just the regular program? Anyway, the reason I am writing is that I am strongly considering applying to post bac programs in about a year. I am currently looking into getting a job at Penn, preferably in a lab, and then attempting to get into the Penn post bac program (or another, but preferably Penn).

It has been about 6 years since I last took a science class, but I did very well back then (4.0 in all science courses, but they were taken at a community college, albeit a relatively good one). After community college, I went to Lehigh University and obtained my B.S. in Business Economics (Overall: 3.87, Degree: 3.96). I then got a full scholarship for another year at Lehigh and obtained my M.S. in Accounting and Information Analysis (Overall: 3.84, Degree: 3.87). I worked for a year, and am now just about to complete my first year at Temple Law. However, I am really unhappy with the career path I have chosen.

In community college, I studied the sciences and loved it. When I transferred to Lehigh, I was faced with the prospect of spending an additional 3 years in undergraduate studies to obtain a degree in science (at that point, I was thinking Chemical Engineering). Idiotically, I chose to obtain a business degree, largely because it only took two additional years. At the time, I think that I was foolishly afraid that it would look bad if I took too long to get an undergraduate degree. Then, I got the M.S. in Accounting because it seemed like the logical progression my life seemed to be taking, and I knew that it would allow me to obtain a job at a decent salary. When I went out to work, I quickly realized that I despised what I was doing. I had what many consider a "good job," but I was miserable. I learned the importance of doing something about which you are passionate, rather than merely working for a paycheck. So, I began to consider my options, and focused primarily on these two:

1. I know that my passion is for science, but am I willing to take the risk (as I perceived it) of going back and taking undergraduate classes in order to form the groundwork necessary to move on to advanced study?
2. I have always been told that I'm a good debater. Perhaps I should go to law school, which I have considered in the past, because it fits more into what I've done already and I may enjoy it.

I cowardly chose the second option. Bad choice. I am really disinterested in virtually everything relating to legal study.

So, at a month shy of 26 years of age, I am finally going to return to what I love. My plan is to leave law school and try to get a job in a lab at Penn. I don't have much lab experience, however (a couple of months volunteer work with N.O.A.A. chemical engineering Ph.D doing bench work). So, my idea is to contact those doing research at Penn in areas in which I have an interest (actually, I'd take any lab job that would allow me to do some bench work). I am going to explain to them my situation and my goals. Ideally, I will be able to get a job with one of them ASAP. However, if they are reticent to hire me, I am going to offer to volunteer in their lab for at least a month (which is how much free time I have this summer before my finances evaporate), in the hopes that I can be sufficiently trained in that time period to the point where I would be an acceptable lab tech candidate. I am also going to volunteer as much as possible at a hospital (I live in Philly, by the way, so there is no shortage of great hospitals in the area).

What do you think? Good plan? See any holes in it? Do you think that I have any shot at getting a lab tech job at Penn? If I get some good lab experience and some clinical volunteer work under my belt, do you think that I have a shot at getting into the Penn postbac program, given my above grades and a 1330 SAT? I know that this is a very long post (my first), but I saw your post and was psyched to find someone who seems to be doing exactly what I want to do. Any help or advice you can offer would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Steve

 

[MasterShakeDO]

That is an impressive post! First let me say that you have a good chance at being able to pursue your dream so long as you are willing to work for it. Let me tell you what I did...I'm not saying you have to do exactly the same, but it definitely worked! I can't believe you've done so much and you're still only 25.
I started a business after college at age 22. Then I decided to go back to the sciences and posted my resume on Penn's HR page and applied to a few specific openings (do this, I recommend it!). I got a few interview offers just from that and decided to work in my field of interest. I got invaluable research experience and even 5+ publications. I went to regular CGS and finished my pre-med prerequisites, taking the 2 classes a semester that Penn pays for. The first summer I enrolled in a Princeton Review course that met evenings and was able to do very well on the MCAT. I applied to formal post-bac programs and decided to go to Drexel IMS. Now I'm off to med school in the Fall! It was a long road, but definitely worth it.
Even with little lab experience you should be able to get a tech position. Especially if you know basic bench techniques. Most labs want a 2 year committment and a willingness to work your butt off...they're willing to train people who can give that committment, but it's a waste of resources to train someone who won't stick around. That with your master's makes you a more attractive candidate. Just be prepared for questions about why you left law school and being able to finish what you started, committment, blah blah blah.
Good luck and God bless!

 

[nabeel76]

It is selective; in fact, I myself got rejected even though I just wanted to take intro bio part-time. (!) Now, my GPA is crappola (considerably below a 3.0), which is almost definately why I got rejected. I even went to one of their advisors to basically ask 'what are my chances,' who all but rejected me right there. Why I then applied, I have no idea, looking back on it.

Quota? The official line is that they don't have one. "If we feel 500 students are qualified, then we'll admit all 500," is another quote I remember from the info session. I wouldn't put much weight into that statement, if only because they probably don't have the space for all those students! 😛 They also claim that the essay is the most important part of the application package. It seems to me, however, that the GPA is more important than any other part of the app. I just kept getting the impression (through HS, college, SDN, etc.) that Penn likes their students to have high GPAs first and foremost.

They told me the same thing, "if we have 500 qualified students than we will admit them all," when I called the CGS admissions office prior to applying.

lotus228 - I got accepted into the program from a community college in Northern Virginia. So if you do well in a CC you should be admitted.

 

[chopsmith]

That is an impressive post! First let me say that you have a good chance at being able to pursue your dream so long as you are willing to work for it. Let me tell you what I did...I'm not saying you have to do exactly the same, but it definitely worked! I can't believe you've done so much and you're still only 25.
I started a business after college at age 22. Then I decided to go back to the sciences and posted my resume on Penn's HR page and applied to a few specific openings (do this, I recommend it!). I got a few interview offers just from that and decided to work in my field of interest. I got invaluable research experience and even 5+ publications. I went to regular CGS and finished my pre-med prerequisites, taking the 2 classes a semester that Penn pays for. The first summer I enrolled in a Princeton Review course that met evenings and was able to do very well on the MCAT. I applied to formal post-bac programs and decided to go to Drexel IMS. Now I'm off to med school in the Fall! It was a long road, but definitely worth it.
Even with little lab experience you should be able to get a tech position. Especially if you know basic bench techniques. Most labs want a 2 year committment and a willingness to work your butt off...they're willing to train people who can give that committment, but it's a waste of resources to train someone who won't stick around. That with your master's makes you a more attractive candidate. Just be prepared for questions about why you left law school and being able to finish what you started, committment, blah blah blah.
Good luck and God bless!

MasterShakeDO,
Yeah, I've already filled out the general application on Penn's HR website. I have not yet applied to specific jobs, though. Did you interview with HR or with PIs? Or both? Do you think it would make sense to contact PIs directly and let them know what I want to do and give them a heads up that I will be applying? Thanks.

 

[chopsmith]

They told me the same thing, "if we have 500 qualified students than we will admit them all," when I called the CGS admissions office prior to applying.

lotus228 - I got accepted into the program from a community college in Northern Virginia. So if you do well in a CC you should be admitted.

Are you all talking about the general Penn CGS school, or the Pre-health program specifically. That is, is there no "official" limit on the number they will accept into the Pre-health program? Thanks.

 

[nabeel76]

Are you all talking about the general Penn CGS school, or the Pre-health program specifically. That is, is there no "official" limit on the number they will accept into the Pre-health program? Thanks.

With CGS you have to apply for a specific program. They have a program to finish an undergraduate degree for those without a previous degree, this is the program that I will be attending. I have been told that there is no 'official limit' to the amount of students accepted - they just have to be good students. They also have other programs such as the special science and the pre health programs. I am not too sure if these programs have a limit or cap to the number of admits. In addition there is also graduate programs towards several different masters degrees.

The above programs require applications and admittance into the program. They also have options for students that are not interested in courses for credit, this allows them to take courses without admitance into a program. I believe you just fill out an application and then register for courses this way but am not too sure.

 

[MasterShakeDO]

MasterShakeDO,
Yeah, I've already filled out the general application on Penn's HR website. I have not yet applied to specific jobs, though. Did you interview with HR or with PIs? Or both? Do you think it would make sense to contact PIs directly and let them know what I want to do and give them a heads up that I will be applying? Thanks.

I applied to a specific job and interviewed with the PI. I don't think you ever interview with HR. It never hurts to contact them directly. What field of interest do you want to into? I may know someone...

 

[chopsmith]

I applied to a specific job and interviewed with the PI. I don't think you ever interview with HR. It never hurts to contact them directly. What field of interest do you want to into? I may know someone...

Hey MasterShekDO,
Frankly, I would love to do any kind of research. I'm sure that I will learn some really interesting things and some very useful skills in any position I get. Infectious disease and virology interest me a ton. I was looking at some of the lab tech postings on HR and I saw one for radiology that looked great. It involved preparing cell cultures, preparing rats for surgery, etc. I would also fit well in a lab that could use a bit of programming (I'm low-intermediate in PERL and C++, as well as a couple less useful languages, and am always willing to teach myself more if given access to the technology). The rats and cell cultures may sound like odd things to want to do (actually, does that sound wierd to folks on SDN or is it just run-of-the-mill?), but I have a close friend that is starting Penn Med this August and those are some of the exact things she was doing in her undergraduate research. She said that it was excellent experience, was brought up left and right in interviews, and led to her most effusive recommendation letters because the PhD had such trouble finding someone to do what can be pretty heart-wrenching work without giving up. But really, if I could find a paying (no matter how low) job in a lab at Penn, I would be so psyched. If you know someone who might be able to use me, that would be amazing and much appreciated. Thanks.